3. 10PT's are a little more of a gray area for me. But at the same time, it's still an environment where everyone knows and is okay with people. Like you said, if it was done around a kitchen table, no one is going to batter down your door and drag you off to Magic Death Camp (This really exists, they force you to play nonstop with cards from The Dark, Fallen Empires, and Homelands).
I'm trying to be patient with you, but since you can't seem to stay away from attacking me rather than my argument, I'll bite.
I've been playing for over 20 years, have a nice stockpile of RL cards, and personally benefit from the RL staying right where it is. I've got enough disposable income that when I want cards, I don't need to trade for them: I go to a website, order them, and they show up in my mailbox a few days later. So whatever you want to assume about me personally, or WHY I want the RL abolished, well, you're probably wrong. There's another mistake to add to your collection, and thanks for playing.
Cool story, bro. In case you haven't been reading, I want the Reserve List gone too. But I'm not going to go around printing off $200 cards to stick in my EDH deck because I'm not getting my way.
Now, counterfeits: illegal, unethical, and not allowed in tournaments for various reasons, all of them dealing with one thing: money. I keep trying to explain that the reason you can play with a real mox, but a fake one is banned, is not because a mox is inherently a powerful card. Fakes are banned to drum up more business. Cards that can be reprinted earn money for WotC. Cards that can't, earn money for the big stores, who also happen to often be the ones sponsoring tournaments. But to say that counterfeits are unsportsmanlike in the context of a game or a match, but that the originals, with identical effects, are perfectly legit, is disingenuous. Or, if you prefer a mistaken impression. You're racking them up today!
Wait... so... you're telling me that all these cards were printed for the past twenty-three years were done so someone could make money? And.. and that these stores that have popped up that carry all these cards I can go in and get... THEYRE there to make money too?
Oh man, that's terrible. Up til now, I was totally under the impression that they simply existed as a public service. Now that I know someone's PROFITING from them... oh God. My world's shattered.
So, your mistakes, your experiences, your old cards that might not be "worth" much have a real, tangible value to you? That's nice. Do you consider it an insult that they reprinted them? That someone else can get the cards for a fraction of the value that you paid for them? That's unreasonable. It's a silly thing people do, the idea that "I had to go through all this, so everyone else should too." You truly believe that because it was hard for you, nobody else should have it easier. And then decide to call others selfish, to claim that THEY are the ones who believe they are entitled because you, of course, put in the "effort" and therefore actually "deserve" what you have and others do not because they didn't. It's selfish, arrogant, and inconsistent, and that particular train of thought, insidious as it is, has no merit.
No, I don't consider it an insult that they got reprinted. It's Wizards of the Coast's game, their property, and they can do what they want with it. Every time I buy a card, every time I crack a pack, I know that the supply and value of that card can change within weeks, or even days. Sure, it would suck if they decided they were going to print Wasteland in Standard at common in every single set from now on, but that's their right to decide. If it got to the point that I felt I wasn't getting bang for my buck, I'd quit the game, or at least stop buying cards.
See the difference? Wizards' of the Coast's game, Wizards of the Coast decides what gets printed, and what card's supplies get increased. Not you and not me.
And its not about "it was hard for me, nobody should have it easier". Its about my decisions and the consequences of them, the same as for anyone else. Trade badly 20 years ago, have crappy cards now. Trade well twenty years ago, have high value cards now. Its part of the game. If Wizards ever decides to reprint those cards again, and I end up with a few, then lucky me. If not, well, I'll make do with what I got. How in the hell is that in any way, shape or form selfish or arrogant?
3. 10PT's are a little more of a gray area for me. But at the same time, it's still an environment where everyone knows and is okay with people. Like you said, if it was done around a kitchen table, no one is going to batter down your door and drag you off to Magic Death Camp (This really exists, they force you to play nonstop with cards from The Dark, Fallen Empires, and Homelands).
You are drastically overrating the price of the kind of machine you need to play CS go. You don't really need more than a 500 dollar PC to get more than 60 frames per second.
Also, imagine if a gun company hosted a shooting event, where you had to use particular guns and then the company refused to manufacture those guns.
It's also a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Higher end computers have more transistors in them, better guns or cameras have more precise machining. Better magic cards do not cost more to make. Its artificial scarcity at its finest.
Honestly, I'm not surprised that people are turning to counterfeits.It's the market's attempt to address a problem in the supply.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
You are drastically overrating the price of the kind of machine you need to play CS go. You don't really need more than a 500 dollar PC to get more than 60 frames per second.
Also, imagine if a gun company hosted a shooting event, where you had to use particular guns and then the company refused to manufacture those guns.
It's also a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Higher end computers have more transistors in them, better guns or cameras have more precise machining. Better magic cards do not cost more to make. Its artificial scarcity at its finest.
Honestly, I'm not surprised that people are turning to counterfeits.It's the market's attempt to address a problem in the supply.
So why does Wizards of the Coast not have the right to allow scarcity on its products?
Most stores within an hour of my area don't have legacy tournaments, and the ones that do allow proxies. I wouldn't really call them sanctioned events as we never get more than 5 people. We haven't fired off a tournament in 4 months. The players that are serious about playing consistently generally travel out of city. The format feels very casual to me
Using borrowed cards is different than using fakes. For one, the rules state you can only play with real cards. Period. This is because if fakes were allowed, no one would have any reason to buy the real thing and the business model would collapse.
Secondly, you can actually enforce that rule. You can't check the ownership of borrowed cards, that's completely unreasonable and unenforceable.
Thirdly, someone went to the effort of obtaining the real, borrowed card. What they choose to do with it is entirely immaterial to me, and if they want to loan it out, I can't stop them nor do I desire to. It's a real card, it's within the rules, I have no choice but to be OK with it. In fact, I'm more than ok with it, borrowing cards gives more players access to the format in a legal way. Counterfeits do not. No one went through any effort to get a hold of that card and are intending on playing with it till busted.
One is a selfish person, upset because he doesn't get to have all the toys, doing something illegal and unethical to self-gratify himself.
The other is a generous person voluntarily allowing someone to share in the fruits of his own effort.
See the difference?
I am not saying I disagree with any of this, nor am I saying that I advocate the use of fake cards. My response was only meant to say that the argument that a person playing at an event did not himself do anything to earn the right to play with the cards is not, in itself, a valid one, because borrowing cards is okay.
You are drastically overrating the price of the kind of machine you need to play CS go. You don't really need more than a 500 dollar PC to get more than 60 frames per second.
Also, imagine if a gun company hosted a shooting event, where you had to use particular guns and then the company refused to manufacture those guns.
It's also a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Higher end computers have more transistors in them, better guns or cameras have more precise machining. Better magic cards do not cost more to make. Its artificial scarcity at its finest.
Honestly, I'm not surprised that people are turning to counterfeits.It's the market's attempt to address a problem in the supply.
Competitive CSGO players run at 144 or greater FPS and require monitors that support this refresh rate. If you look at the equipment used by every CSGO player, not a single one runs at 60 FPS, and almost everyone runs at 144. A handful at 120. CSGO Professional Setups Total, for the rig that can push those frames, a monitor that will handle it, and a good gaming keyboard/mouse, i think my estimate is about right. This does not include the price of a headset either. Yes, you can play CSGO at 60 FPS just fine, but the competitive edge is found in the responsiveness and buttery smooth goodness of 120hz or higher refresh rates. Not a single pro plays at 60FPS.
Regardless of why the price is what it is, its still the pricetag to play at that level. High density CPUs, performance monitors, these are expensive for the reason that they cost a lot to make. Magic cards are expensive due to scarcity and desirability. At the end of the day, it doesnt matter why the price is what it is, it only matters that it simply IS.
The gun situation would be better explained that a company produces a very unique kind of gun for a very unique kind of shooting competition. Lets say it's a gun that fires weasels. And it starts off being reasonably priced. Some people really start getting into weasel shooting and the hobby takes off, but unfortunately the materials needed to make a WeaselGun are rare and there aren't enough to go around. The company goes public with this and says "ok, these are all the WeaselGuns we are ever going to make."
Throughout the years, weasel gun enthusiasts have noticed the growing popularity of their hobby and have purchased their own supply of weasel guns and ammo anticipating its popularity and wanting to ensure they had the best equipment for weasel shooting. There are other types of shooting competitions, but these guys really like weasel shooting. Some of them who got into it later worked a whole lot to afford a single WeaselGun. One day, Weasel Gun inc. finds a new supply of raw material and can make more weasel guns. Should they? An awful lot of people paid a lot of money thinking it was the only way to get into weasel shooting. Some got lucky and their stash of WeaselGuns is suddenly worth a while lot of money and can be traded fluidly for the now popular muskrat or raccoon shooting guns, or sold to potential weasel gun enthusiasts.
These people represent the die hards and the dedicated, they've either been weasel gun shooting before it was cool, or else were willing to work super hard for the cash to get into it later. Either way, they're pretty hardcore, dedicated shooters and many also purchase muskrat shooting supplies routinely. Muskrat guns are cheaper, and it makes muskrat shooting an easier competition to get into, but the tradeoff is the guns break fairly often and need to be rebought. Still, the fact its less expensive upfront means that more people enjoy muskrat shooting.
Obviously this is not an exactly identical situation to Magic since there's not a material shortage, but that artificial shortage was introduced because WotC somehow got to a point where weasel guns popularity was suddenly so great that in their attempt to make it more accessible, they accidentally almost tanked the company by pissing off nearly every weasel gun owner. My point is that it's not as cut and dry as the scenario you gave. Also, I wanted to use the idea of a weasel gun because it seemed hilarious.
It gets additionally complicated when you look at the fact that Weasel Gun Inc's Muskrat guns have made the original Weasel Gun even more attractive. It turns out, firing Muskrats through a WeaselGun is REALLY fun, so Legacy continues to get powerups that make it even more exciting. First fetchlands were introduced. Then Ad Nauseum, then Abrupt Decay and Delver and Griselbrand. Which puts an even greater demand on WeaselGuns because at the end of the day, you can't do WeaselGun shooting with anything BUT a WeaselGun. Still, even as the demand keeps increasing, is WoTC right for withholding WeaselGuns when they could make more? I mean, there's enough people interested now that even if you made all existing Weaselgun owners quit the sport, that, in and of itself, might not kill the company. Does this mean that since that hardcore playerbase is no longer necessary for Weaselgun's survival, that it should get the shaft? And there's still the fact that if anyone can go get a WeaselGun, and it's so much more fun and a one time expense, why does anyone bother with Muskrat or the newly introduced Ferret Cannon? What about all the Ferret Cannon owners who now have a bunch of worthless equipment since everyone wants to go shoot WeaselGuns? Why even bother with Muskrat guns when you can have a WeaselGun? Everyone's got a WeaselGun now, but now there's no more sponsored competition, and WeaselGun Inc has no reason or money with which to make new product, and no one's got any motivation to buy anything anyway? And what of the sporting goods stores that deal in WeaselGun? What about all their suddenly worthless WeaselGun inventory? Would they even want to carry future WeaselGun product?
Looks like we've pretty much reached endgame on the buyouts; every major Reserve List card that hadn't been bought out recently has pretty much been bought out or is headed in that direction.
Here's what I've been seeing over the last few days; If you were tentatively planning on picking up any Reserve List cards anytime in the near future, now would seemingly be the time to do it. I'll forego the usual suspects over the last few days: Serra's Sanctum, Grim Monolith, Tolarian Academy... those cards have spiked (probably, for now) and "investing" in them is a lost cause.
I just picked up one of the last Academy Rectors available on TCGPlayer for $22.50; they were going for under $20.00 a couple days ago. The next available one is $24.00. If you can buy or trade for one, this would be my top target.
Ditto Gilded Drake, Intuition, and Humility--the latter two have spiked about $4.00-5.00 each since I checked just earlier today.
Here are some of the cards I've picked up today still available for (what I believe in the near future will be) relatively cheap, in order of urgency:
If you haven't already, I would also recommend Volrath's Stronghold, Yavimaya Hollow, Metalworker, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, and Yawgmoth's Will, because they are all also starting to tick up. (I already either own a couple of each or don't care whether I do or not, so I didn't bother picking any more up myself.) Lake of the Dead and Thawing Glaciers are also substantially more expensive than I remember the last time I checked, but I couldn't tell you if this is a recent development or not because these cards weren't really on my radar.
Nothing will ever happen to the RL. WOTC has no reason to ever abolish it. They make 99% of their money from Standard and Commander, both of which they can just invent new cards for, new cards you have to buy.
Hasbro gives literally no F's about Vintage Magic. They only care about pushing NEW product and with the new rotation they can push even more new product each year.
RL is here to stay and whether the prices on it are cheap or expensive is entirely irrelevant to WOTC and Hasbro's bottom line.
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I'm fairly confident I will think of something to say. Active Player: 1994-1999, 2016-
Martin is in for a nasty surprise when he spends a bunch of money buying very expensive cards that are hard to move, and will likely get even harder to move if what he does ends up driving prices even higher.
RL is going nowhere because removing it would have a serious negative effect on card valuations and WotC does not want people afraid of buying into the game.
I sincerely hope that this results in him dying in a robbery. I hope that because of all the other crap he's pulled in his life.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Also, imagine if a gun company hosted a shooting event, where you had to use particular guns and then the company refused to manufacture those guns.
I actually love this analogy but it needs a fix to accurately represent what is going on.
Instead envision a shooting event that only allows antique guns, with 'proxiys' being newly made guns with the functionality of antiques. This way there is no advantage to using the new guns but as they aren't really antique guns those who are participating with real antique guns would be quite offended by you using your 'new' guns.
This is much more inline with what the current state of things are, sure there is the difference that wizards has the ability to print more while you technically can't make new 'antique' guns.
The reason I'm in favor of retaining the reserved list has nothing to do with the prices of cards on the secondary market.
What I'm most desperate for is that corporations keep their promises.
If corporations are psychopathic entities focused solely on short term profit, I feel that makes the world a poorer place.
If businesses feel bound to keep their word, especially when the going gets tough, this reflects well on them.
It gives them a good reputation, which is priceless.
Not when it's detrimental to their customers, their brand, and their shareholders. Keeping your word is important, but blindly adhering to a promise that is actively harmful to an entire community isn't honorable, it's foolish. And expecting them to "keep their word" when doing so costs them money and goodwill, and costs their customers far more, is absurd.
Keeping their word is detrimental to the players and to the continued health of the game as a whole. The RL is the single most contentious and divisive policy they've ever come up with, it adds nothing to the game, the community, or the IP itself. There's absolutely no reasonable excuse for keeping it, beyond "we're too stubborn to change our minds."
You DO realize that they can't keep their word on the RL anyway, right? They've changed the policy before, twice that I know of. The original promise is ALREADY broken, and yet somehow it gets held up as some sacred trust. They changed their policy before, and there were no lawsuits over things removed, no public outcry, it was pretty much accepted. There's no reason they can't change it again. None.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
The reason I'm in favor of retaining the reserved list has nothing to do with the prices of cards on the secondary market.
What I'm most desperate for is that corporations keep their promises.
If corporations are psychopathic entities focused solely on short term profit, I feel that makes the world a poorer place.
If businesses feel bound to keep their word, especially when the going gets tough, this reflects well on them.
It gives them a good reputation, which is priceless.
Funny. The reason I am in favor of dissolving the reserve list also has nothing to do with prices on the secondary market, and not only that, I have the complete utter opposite perspective than you, even when looking at the same facts!!! Let's look at it a bit, then...
The definition of psychopathic behavior has to do with lack of empathy. What shows less empathy: Understanding what is best for the game and its players, or sticking to one promise that was made two decades ago, just because you made it? Answer: The 2nd one. If you are against psychopathic behavior, you should be against the reserve list.
A good reputation isn't given to a company that keeps their promises well past their useful date, instead, a company that cares about its customers and its product, regardless of promises, is the one that gets a good reputation. Sticking to promises blindly doesn't give a positive or negative reputation at all, it is neutral. Now imagine the positive response, the publicity stunt, the increase in brand exposure, if they were to abolish the reserve list. It would be immense! Their reputation would grow incredibly, among players but also and more importantly among non-players.
Funny how different people can look at the same thing and see different things, eh? I myself care for the longevity and sustainability of the format and want to increase the number of cards in circulation regardless of their price so that the format can maintain itself through the loss/damaging of cards and cards being idle in collections with the passing of time, and that in 5,10,20 years we still have this wonderful set of formats to play with.
The reserved list is a promise, stupid or not.
Doesnt have anything to do with empathy, as it works on both sides. If you ignore a promise and change it, that will damage your words worth in the long run way more.
WotC simply cannot abandon the reserved list if they dont want to risk law suits against them , simply because the reserved list exists that long it carries weight.
In the end the reserved list isnt an issue anyway, as they can at any time simply print other cards that outclass the ones , they just dont want to (could even be in special products like commander decks that are only legal in legacy/vintage formats , and they allready pulled this stunt).
Theres a pretty tiny amount of cards on the reserved list that "actually" matter at all, mainly the duals.
In the end you expect something of legacy that the format does not represent.
Sustainability of the format and increasing the numbers of cards available isnt a goal of legacy , the format is ment to be to give players a chance to play with very old cards they have allready , buying into legacy is going to be expensive and thats to no surprise, as its the format that plays the oldest cards and they are "limited", so the format itself is quite limited aswell.
But thats not an issue, as its not the only format to play and wotc doesnt want to push legacy anyway, so theres no reason at all for WotC to change anything about the reserved list.
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The market "could be" self-regulating, if people simply do not buy cards they claim to be too expensive.
As long as people do buy the cards for whatever price is asked, it will just go up.
Now, let's fast forward a little. The gap between Type 1 and Type 2 was growing larger each year. There began to be a group of players who wanted a format bigger than Type 2 but one that didn't have the power level of Type 1 (nor would it require accessing what were now some very hard-to-get cards). The solution was a new format called Type 1.5. It was the Type 1 pool of cards except the entire banned and restricted list was banned.
So...Legacy was meant to be a format without "hard-to-get cards"....obviously this failed long ago.
Now, let's fast forward a little. The gap between Type 1 and Type 2 was growing larger each year. There began to be a group of players who wanted a format bigger than Type 2 but one that didn't have the power level of Type 1 (nor would it require accessing what were now some very hard-to-get cards). The solution was a new format called Type 1.5. It was the Type 1 pool of cards except the entire banned and restricted list was banned.
So...Legacy was meant to be a format without "hard-to-get cards"....obviously this failed long ago.
No, the banned and restricted cards were the cards that are ridiculously overpowered and broken. They were banned or restricted due to their power levels, it had nothing to do with availability or being "hard to get."
*sigh* legacy's intention was to provide players a non-rotating format. No one wants to play a game where the only format requires rebuying and your cards have zero competitive play value before rotation. At the time it was created, the reserve list had not driven prices to exorbitant levels, but the Power 9 and such were at these levels, meaning that there really wasn't an accessible, non-rotating format at the time that didn't require power. Card eventually left extended, and after they rotated out of extended, you either had Power or you had nothing to play those cards in. Legacy was meant as the stop-gap between rotating formats and Vintage. Of course, it's never been outlined that way verbatim to my knowledge, but it's pretty strongly inferred. Back then, only a few people even theorized that duals and such would be worth what they are today, no one was "priced out" of it, but as the years went by, extended as a format died, and Modern was created as people noticed Legacy was starting to get expensive. Extended just was not distinct enough from standard, and cards still eventually rotated out of extended. Modern gave players a non-rotating format that didn't suffer from the RL, providing a long term solution and filling a space that needed to be filled, as now Legacy was getting prohibitive to play. Modern was birthed for the same reason Legacy was, only now instead of Black Lotus and friends being inaccessible, the duals and cards needed to play Legacy were getting too expensive. Despite the fact that Modern does indeed solve this problem, it does not fill the gap that Legacy needs to fill. What are owners of cards printed outside of modern, or RL cardholders supposed to do with their cardboard? Legacy continues to exist to accommodate those players, and WoTC has basically done all they're going to be able to do to support the format without the RL. The best Legacy players can hope for at this point is the occasional new toy like Abrupt Decay or whatever, and continued EMA printings. And to keep up on the banned/restricted list by monitoring the format and adjusting it as necessary. (e.g. Mental Misstep/Treasure Cruise/DTT bannings)
Like it or not, Legacy is pretty much on its own, stuck in the boat the RL has put it in. Fortunately, there are enough cards printed to support a very large and dedicated playerbase, so while the format may have stopped growing, it will continue to be played. If the prices correct due to a "bubble" or whatnot, great, we'll see more people pick up the format. If not, it will be limited to the people who already own the cards, are willing to play burn, or have way too much disposable income.
The alternative is WoTC breaks the RL (which is not going to happen, plain and simple, they've tried everything to get as close to breaking it as they can but still can't seem to simply do so), because if they do break the RL, the game itself is jeopardized for the possibility of saving a format that really doesn't need saving, and doesn't make WoTC any money directly either. Or they leave well enough alone, the world keeps spinning as it is, and the worst thing that happens is that players get effectively priced out of the format, and maybe, someday, in the far distant future, Legacy as a format dies and then all the EDH players can get cheap dual lands or whatever. Until then, the only people you're affecting by keeping the RL intact are:
1) Players looking to get into Legacy seriously. Those players aren't looking to buy product from WotC.
2) EDH players needing RL cards to make their decks a little better.
3) Legacy players that need more legacy players.
To be honest, combine these three groups, which have a collective, loud voice, and realize that they're still a minority of players compared to standard/modern/kitchen table players, none of which care about the price of Tabernacle or duals, and at least two of which give WotC money directly on the regular. Regardless of which group you fall in, the odds are that if the RL stays instact, it is unlikely to be the deciding factor of whether or not you continue to play Magic.
It would be nice to have more players in legacy. It would be nice for everyone to have the duals they need. But EDH can be played without duals, I promise, and you can play Magic without playing Legacy. If you really want to play Legacy, MOTL, again, is a thing that provides an affordable way to play the format. I'm sorry it's not paper Magic, but it's better than nothing if you want to play it badly enough you're willing to quit the game if you can't.
I love Legacy. It is probably my favorite format for a lot of different reasons. I don't like the RL, even though it ensures the value of my collection, which is kind of on the pricey side. But I recognize the need for the RL, which is different than it was at its creation. It was born to save the game, at any cost. Years later, Legacy and EDH players are bearing its true cost, but now it exists to keep the game alive for different reasons.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Now, let's fast forward a little. The gap between Type 1 and Type 2 was growing larger each year. There began to be a group of players who wanted a format bigger than Type 2 but one that didn't have the power level of Type 1 (nor would it require accessing what were now some very hard-to-get cards). The solution was a new format called Type 1.5. It was the Type 1 pool of cards except the entire banned and restricted list was banned.
So...Legacy was meant to be a format without "hard-to-get cards"....obviously this failed long ago.
No, the banned and restricted cards were the cards that are ridiculously overpowered and broken. They were banned or restricted due to their power levels, it had nothing to do with availability or being "hard to get."
No, that is 1.5. Legacy was created in October 2004 quite a bit later. That was a different format, with a different name, different rules, a different metagame, and a different playerbase.
Not only that but you seem to be confusing restricted list with reserved list. It has nothing to do with "hard-to-get" cards. At all. Zero.
First Type 1.5 was legacy, it just wan't called that until it was overhauled in 2004, it literally says that in the paragraph after the one I quoted.
Legacy(Type 1.5) was made as a halfway point between Vintage(Type 1) and Standard(Type 2) because the older cards were "HARD TO GET" and the more powerful ones were 'REQUIRED' to play so they made a new format that didn't deal with those. Later they looked into making type 1.5 its own format and it was significantly changed and called Legacy. Obviously as time passed cards that were fine then became harder and harder to get so that definition of Legacy failed and more than likely wasn't even considered when making the Legacy we know today.
You can argue about why you think Legacy was made or what ever. I have provided Wizards own words on the matter, if you only have your own thoughts and theories then it doesn't make sense to believe your reasons.
First Type 1.5 was legacy, it just wan't called that until it was overhauled in 2004, it literally says that in the paragraph after the one I quoted.
And I am telling you that you are wrong. If I say a banana is a fish, does that make it one? No, and the same applies there. Two formats with different playerbases, different metagames (and decks entirely), different rules, everything, ARE NOT THE SAME FORMAT.
Later they looked into making type 1.5 its own format and it was significantly changed and called Legacy. Obviously as time passed cards that were fine then became harder and harder to get so that definition of Legacy failed and more than likely wasn't even considered when making the Legacy we know today.
You are forcing things, and I will not allow you to do so. You will not twist the facts to fit your agenda here. There is nothing in the foundation of legacy as it is now that is related to scarcity or price: only power level.
You can argue about why you think Legacy was made or what ever. I have provided Wizards own words on the matter, if you only have your own thoughts and theories then it doesn't make sense to believe your reasons.
I have no thoughts or theories: I have FACTS. It is a fact, inarguable at that, that the metagames were different. It is a fact, inarguable at that that the rules for the format were different. It is a fact, and while this one is arguable, you can easily scrounge up old articles describing the issue, that the playerbase was different. Observing the reality as it is is not a theory. It is not a thought. It is simply collecting FACTS.
Yeah, Legacy replaced 1.5 directly, with no changes in philosophy. it is literally the same thing. I was playing during the creation of both, as were many on this thread.
First Type 1.5 was legacy, it just wan't called that until it was overhauled in 2004, it literally says that in the paragraph after the one I quoted.
And I am telling you that you are wrong. If I say a banana is a fish, does that make it one? No, and the same applies there. Two formats with different playerbases, different metagames (and decks entirely), different rules, everything, ARE NOT THE SAME FORMAT.
Later they looked into making type 1.5 its own format and it was significantly changed and called Legacy. Obviously as time passed cards that were fine then became harder and harder to get so that definition of Legacy failed and more than likely wasn't even considered when making the Legacy we know today.
You are forcing things, and I will not allow you to do so. You will not twist the facts to fit your agenda here. There is nothing in the foundation of legacy as it is now that is related to scarcity or price: only power level.
You can argue about why you think Legacy was made or what ever. I have provided Wizards own words on the matter, if you only have your own thoughts and theories then it doesn't make sense to believe your reasons.
I have no thoughts or theories: I have FACTS. It is a fact, inarguable at that, that the metagames were different. It is a fact, inarguable at that that the rules for the format were different. It is a fact, and while this one is arguable, you can easily scrounge up old articles describing the issue, that the playerbase was different. Observing the reality as it is is not a theory. It is not a thought. It is simply collecting FACTS.
I love how you use the word fact, over and over again, without ever providing a source. And how you claim I'm 'forcing' things. I am providing quotes from Wizards, you are presenting hearsay. If you actually have facts to back up your hearsay it can be considered fact, but sense you only present your opinion with the word fact repeatedly it is still hearsay.
For the sake of your banana argument lets look at what actually happened. There was a banana(Type 1.5) people decided to make a delicious ice cream treat out of it called a banana split(Legacy), you can call it ice cream all you want, you aren't wrong, but neither is the person saying it started as a banana.
You've provided one quote and it doesn't really support your argument.
Now, let's fast forward a little. The gap between Type 1 and Type 2 was growing larger each year. There began to be a group of players who wanted a format bigger than Type 2 but one that didn't have the power level of Type 1 (nor would it require accessing what were now some very hard-to-get cards). The solution was a new format called Type 1.5. It was the Type 1 pool of cards except the entire banned and restricted list was banned.
When I read this, my understanding of it is that 1.5 was created to give people a format with a larger card pool than Type 2 without including the most powerful cards. The part about hard-to-get cards is in parentheses, which to me suggests that it's just a side effect of their main intentions.
As for your conclusion:
So...Legacy was meant to be a format without "hard-to-get cards"
I'm not sure how you get that from the quote you provided. The fact still remains that the only cards banned in 1.5 when it was created were banned due to their power level (that's the reason they were banned or restricted in Type 1) and not because they were hard to get. There were plenty of other hard to get cards at the time that weren't on the Type 1 Banned or Restricted lists. If the purpose of 1.5 was to exclude hard to get cards, those cards would have been banned also.
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You mean legacy/vintage? (Maze of Ith, Hymn to Tourach, and Merchant Scroll?) If so i would like very much to go to Magic death camp.
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EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Cool story, bro. In case you haven't been reading, I want the Reserve List gone too. But I'm not going to go around printing off $200 cards to stick in my EDH deck because I'm not getting my way.
Wait... so... you're telling me that all these cards were printed for the past twenty-three years were done so someone could make money? And.. and that these stores that have popped up that carry all these cards I can go in and get... THEYRE there to make money too?
Oh man, that's terrible. Up til now, I was totally under the impression that they simply existed as a public service. Now that I know someone's PROFITING from them... oh God. My world's shattered.
No, I don't consider it an insult that they got reprinted. It's Wizards of the Coast's game, their property, and they can do what they want with it. Every time I buy a card, every time I crack a pack, I know that the supply and value of that card can change within weeks, or even days. Sure, it would suck if they decided they were going to print Wasteland in Standard at common in every single set from now on, but that's their right to decide. If it got to the point that I felt I wasn't getting bang for my buck, I'd quit the game, or at least stop buying cards.
See the difference? Wizards' of the Coast's game, Wizards of the Coast decides what gets printed, and what card's supplies get increased. Not you and not me.
And its not about "it was hard for me, nobody should have it easier". Its about my decisions and the consequences of them, the same as for anyone else. Trade badly 20 years ago, have crappy cards now. Trade well twenty years ago, have high value cards now. Its part of the game. If Wizards ever decides to reprint those cards again, and I end up with a few, then lucky me. If not, well, I'll make do with what I got. How in the hell is that in any way, shape or form selfish or arrogant?
GOBLIN GRENADE PLAYSETS= FOUR MANA FOR TWENTY DAMAGE.
Ahh... now I'm feeling nostalgic.
Also, imagine if a gun company hosted a shooting event, where you had to use particular guns and then the company refused to manufacture those guns.
It's also a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Higher end computers have more transistors in them, better guns or cameras have more precise machining. Better magic cards do not cost more to make. Its artificial scarcity at its finest.
Honestly, I'm not surprised that people are turning to counterfeits.It's the market's attempt to address a problem in the supply.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
So why does Wizards of the Coast not have the right to allow scarcity on its products?
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I am not saying I disagree with any of this, nor am I saying that I advocate the use of fake cards. My response was only meant to say that the argument that a person playing at an event did not himself do anything to earn the right to play with the cards is not, in itself, a valid one, because borrowing cards is okay.
Competitive CSGO players run at 144 or greater FPS and require monitors that support this refresh rate. If you look at the equipment used by every CSGO player, not a single one runs at 60 FPS, and almost everyone runs at 144. A handful at 120. CSGO Professional Setups Total, for the rig that can push those frames, a monitor that will handle it, and a good gaming keyboard/mouse, i think my estimate is about right. This does not include the price of a headset either. Yes, you can play CSGO at 60 FPS just fine, but the competitive edge is found in the responsiveness and buttery smooth goodness of 120hz or higher refresh rates. Not a single pro plays at 60FPS.
Regardless of why the price is what it is, its still the pricetag to play at that level. High density CPUs, performance monitors, these are expensive for the reason that they cost a lot to make. Magic cards are expensive due to scarcity and desirability. At the end of the day, it doesnt matter why the price is what it is, it only matters that it simply IS.
The gun situation would be better explained that a company produces a very unique kind of gun for a very unique kind of shooting competition. Lets say it's a gun that fires weasels. And it starts off being reasonably priced. Some people really start getting into weasel shooting and the hobby takes off, but unfortunately the materials needed to make a WeaselGun are rare and there aren't enough to go around. The company goes public with this and says "ok, these are all the WeaselGuns we are ever going to make."
Throughout the years, weasel gun enthusiasts have noticed the growing popularity of their hobby and have purchased their own supply of weasel guns and ammo anticipating its popularity and wanting to ensure they had the best equipment for weasel shooting. There are other types of shooting competitions, but these guys really like weasel shooting. Some of them who got into it later worked a whole lot to afford a single WeaselGun. One day, Weasel Gun inc. finds a new supply of raw material and can make more weasel guns. Should they? An awful lot of people paid a lot of money thinking it was the only way to get into weasel shooting. Some got lucky and their stash of WeaselGuns is suddenly worth a while lot of money and can be traded fluidly for the now popular muskrat or raccoon shooting guns, or sold to potential weasel gun enthusiasts.
These people represent the die hards and the dedicated, they've either been weasel gun shooting before it was cool, or else were willing to work super hard for the cash to get into it later. Either way, they're pretty hardcore, dedicated shooters and many also purchase muskrat shooting supplies routinely. Muskrat guns are cheaper, and it makes muskrat shooting an easier competition to get into, but the tradeoff is the guns break fairly often and need to be rebought. Still, the fact its less expensive upfront means that more people enjoy muskrat shooting.
Obviously this is not an exactly identical situation to Magic since there's not a material shortage, but that artificial shortage was introduced because WotC somehow got to a point where weasel guns popularity was suddenly so great that in their attempt to make it more accessible, they accidentally almost tanked the company by pissing off nearly every weasel gun owner. My point is that it's not as cut and dry as the scenario you gave. Also, I wanted to use the idea of a weasel gun because it seemed hilarious.
It gets additionally complicated when you look at the fact that Weasel Gun Inc's Muskrat guns have made the original Weasel Gun even more attractive. It turns out, firing Muskrats through a WeaselGun is REALLY fun, so Legacy continues to get powerups that make it even more exciting. First fetchlands were introduced. Then Ad Nauseum, then Abrupt Decay and Delver and Griselbrand. Which puts an even greater demand on WeaselGuns because at the end of the day, you can't do WeaselGun shooting with anything BUT a WeaselGun. Still, even as the demand keeps increasing, is WoTC right for withholding WeaselGuns when they could make more? I mean, there's enough people interested now that even if you made all existing Weaselgun owners quit the sport, that, in and of itself, might not kill the company. Does this mean that since that hardcore playerbase is no longer necessary for Weaselgun's survival, that it should get the shaft? And there's still the fact that if anyone can go get a WeaselGun, and it's so much more fun and a one time expense, why does anyone bother with Muskrat or the newly introduced Ferret Cannon? What about all the Ferret Cannon owners who now have a bunch of worthless equipment since everyone wants to go shoot WeaselGuns? Why even bother with Muskrat guns when you can have a WeaselGun? Everyone's got a WeaselGun now, but now there's no more sponsored competition, and WeaselGun Inc has no reason or money with which to make new product, and no one's got any motivation to buy anything anyway? And what of the sporting goods stores that deal in WeaselGun? What about all their suddenly worthless WeaselGun inventory? Would they even want to carry future WeaselGun product?
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Here's what I've been seeing over the last few days; If you were tentatively planning on picking up any Reserve List cards anytime in the near future, now would seemingly be the time to do it. I'll forego the usual suspects over the last few days: Serra's Sanctum, Grim Monolith, Tolarian Academy... those cards have spiked (probably, for now) and "investing" in them is a lost cause.
I just picked up one of the last Academy Rectors available on TCGPlayer for $22.50; they were going for under $20.00 a couple days ago. The next available one is $24.00. If you can buy or trade for one, this would be my top target.
Ditto Gilded Drake, Intuition, and Humility--the latter two have spiked about $4.00-5.00 each since I checked just earlier today.
Here are some of the cards I've picked up today still available for (what I believe in the near future will be) relatively cheap, in order of urgency:
If you haven't already, I would also recommend Volrath's Stronghold, Yavimaya Hollow, Metalworker, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, and Yawgmoth's Will, because they are all also starting to tick up. (I already either own a couple of each or don't care whether I do or not, so I didn't bother picking any more up myself.) Lake of the Dead and Thawing Glaciers are also substantially more expensive than I remember the last time I checked, but I couldn't tell you if this is a recent development or not because these cards weren't really on my radar.
Undiscovered Paradise, Replenish, Treachery, Palinchron, Time Spiral, and Recurring Nightmare, haven't moved much YET, but to me they seem like the logical next tier of cards to start moving upwards
As far as outlier flyers go, Hatred, Scorched Ruins, Lotus Vale, Winding Canyons Firestorm, Squandered Resources (Yes, I just said SQUANDERED RESOURCES) Retribution of the Meek (Ditto-do you even know what this card does?), City of Solitude (Ditto x3), and Pendrell Mists seem like relatively good bets, even though none of them are particularly relevant in sanctioned eternal formats (except Firestorm in certain Dredge builds.)
Let me know what you think.
Hasbro gives literally no F's about Vintage Magic. They only care about pushing NEW product and with the new rotation they can push even more new product each year.
RL is here to stay and whether the prices on it are cheap or expensive is entirely irrelevant to WOTC and Hasbro's bottom line.
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RL is going nowhere because removing it would have a serious negative effect on card valuations and WotC does not want people afraid of buying into the game.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Instead envision a shooting event that only allows antique guns, with 'proxiys' being newly made guns with the functionality of antiques. This way there is no advantage to using the new guns but as they aren't really antique guns those who are participating with real antique guns would be quite offended by you using your 'new' guns.
This is much more inline with what the current state of things are, sure there is the difference that wizards has the ability to print more while you technically can't make new 'antique' guns.
What I'm most desperate for is that corporations keep their promises.
If corporations are psychopathic entities focused solely on short term profit, I feel that makes the world a poorer place.
If businesses feel bound to keep their word, especially when the going gets tough, this reflects well on them.
It gives them a good reputation, which is priceless.
Not when it's detrimental to their customers, their brand, and their shareholders. Keeping your word is important, but blindly adhering to a promise that is actively harmful to an entire community isn't honorable, it's foolish. And expecting them to "keep their word" when doing so costs them money and goodwill, and costs their customers far more, is absurd.
Keeping their word is detrimental to the players and to the continued health of the game as a whole. The RL is the single most contentious and divisive policy they've ever come up with, it adds nothing to the game, the community, or the IP itself. There's absolutely no reasonable excuse for keeping it, beyond "we're too stubborn to change our minds."
You DO realize that they can't keep their word on the RL anyway, right? They've changed the policy before, twice that I know of. The original promise is ALREADY broken, and yet somehow it gets held up as some sacred trust. They changed their policy before, and there were no lawsuits over things removed, no public outcry, it was pretty much accepted. There's no reason they can't change it again. None.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
The reserved list is a promise, stupid or not.
Doesnt have anything to do with empathy, as it works on both sides. If you ignore a promise and change it, that will damage your words worth in the long run way more.
WotC simply cannot abandon the reserved list if they dont want to risk law suits against them , simply because the reserved list exists that long it carries weight.
In the end the reserved list isnt an issue anyway, as they can at any time simply print other cards that outclass the ones , they just dont want to (could even be in special products like commander decks that are only legal in legacy/vintage formats , and they allready pulled this stunt).
Theres a pretty tiny amount of cards on the reserved list that "actually" matter at all, mainly the duals.
In the end you expect something of legacy that the format does not represent.
Sustainability of the format and increasing the numbers of cards available isnt a goal of legacy , the format is ment to be to give players a chance to play with very old cards they have allready , buying into legacy is going to be expensive and thats to no surprise, as its the format that plays the oldest cards and they are "limited", so the format itself is quite limited aswell.
But thats not an issue, as its not the only format to play and wotc doesnt want to push legacy anyway, so theres no reason at all for WotC to change anything about the reserved list.
----
The market "could be" self-regulating, if people simply do not buy cards they claim to be too expensive.
As long as people do buy the cards for whatever price is asked, it will just go up.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
So...Legacy was meant to be a format without "hard-to-get cards"....obviously this failed long ago.
No, the banned and restricted cards were the cards that are ridiculously overpowered and broken. They were banned or restricted due to their power levels, it had nothing to do with availability or being "hard to get."
Like it or not, Legacy is pretty much on its own, stuck in the boat the RL has put it in. Fortunately, there are enough cards printed to support a very large and dedicated playerbase, so while the format may have stopped growing, it will continue to be played. If the prices correct due to a "bubble" or whatnot, great, we'll see more people pick up the format. If not, it will be limited to the people who already own the cards, are willing to play burn, or have way too much disposable income.
The alternative is WoTC breaks the RL (which is not going to happen, plain and simple, they've tried everything to get as close to breaking it as they can but still can't seem to simply do so), because if they do break the RL, the game itself is jeopardized for the possibility of saving a format that really doesn't need saving, and doesn't make WoTC any money directly either. Or they leave well enough alone, the world keeps spinning as it is, and the worst thing that happens is that players get effectively priced out of the format, and maybe, someday, in the far distant future, Legacy as a format dies and then all the EDH players can get cheap dual lands or whatever. Until then, the only people you're affecting by keeping the RL intact are:
1) Players looking to get into Legacy seriously. Those players aren't looking to buy product from WotC.
2) EDH players needing RL cards to make their decks a little better.
3) Legacy players that need more legacy players.
To be honest, combine these three groups, which have a collective, loud voice, and realize that they're still a minority of players compared to standard/modern/kitchen table players, none of which care about the price of Tabernacle or duals, and at least two of which give WotC money directly on the regular. Regardless of which group you fall in, the odds are that if the RL stays instact, it is unlikely to be the deciding factor of whether or not you continue to play Magic.
It would be nice to have more players in legacy. It would be nice for everyone to have the duals they need. But EDH can be played without duals, I promise, and you can play Magic without playing Legacy. If you really want to play Legacy, MOTL, again, is a thing that provides an affordable way to play the format. I'm sorry it's not paper Magic, but it's better than nothing if you want to play it badly enough you're willing to quit the game if you can't.
I love Legacy. It is probably my favorite format for a lot of different reasons. I don't like the RL, even though it ensures the value of my collection, which is kind of on the pricey side. But I recognize the need for the RL, which is different than it was at its creation. It was born to save the game, at any cost. Years later, Legacy and EDH players are bearing its true cost, but now it exists to keep the game alive for different reasons.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Legacy(Type 1.5) was made as a halfway point between Vintage(Type 1) and Standard(Type 2) because the older cards were "HARD TO GET" and the more powerful ones were 'REQUIRED' to play so they made a new format that didn't deal with those. Later they looked into making type 1.5 its own format and it was significantly changed and called Legacy. Obviously as time passed cards that were fine then became harder and harder to get so that definition of Legacy failed and more than likely wasn't even considered when making the Legacy we know today.
You can argue about why you think Legacy was made or what ever. I have provided Wizards own words on the matter, if you only have your own thoughts and theories then it doesn't make sense to believe your reasons.
Yeah, Legacy replaced 1.5 directly, with no changes in philosophy. it is literally the same thing. I was playing during the creation of both, as were many on this thread.
For the sake of your banana argument lets look at what actually happened. There was a banana(Type 1.5) people decided to make a delicious ice cream treat out of it called a banana split(Legacy), you can call it ice cream all you want, you aren't wrong, but neither is the person saying it started as a banana.
When I read this, my understanding of it is that 1.5 was created to give people a format with a larger card pool than Type 2 without including the most powerful cards. The part about hard-to-get cards is in parentheses, which to me suggests that it's just a side effect of their main intentions.
As for your conclusion:
I'm not sure how you get that from the quote you provided. The fact still remains that the only cards banned in 1.5 when it was created were banned due to their power level (that's the reason they were banned or restricted in Type 1) and not because they were hard to get. There were plenty of other hard to get cards at the time that weren't on the Type 1 Banned or Restricted lists. If the purpose of 1.5 was to exclude hard to get cards, those cards would have been banned also.