I love to create deck lists, but Im always a bit unsure when it comes to lands. I usually run 24, but I either get too few or too much some games, and it bothers me to no end. Maybe Im just a bad, bad shuffler. On MTG duels, I don't seem to get nearly as unlucky as on real life games. Makes you wonder...
Anyhow, I created a deck that is MONOBLUE, has a lot of card draw and some scry. On the same time, it needs 6 mana for Rise from the Tides, its win-condition. Could anyone give me pointers on if I should run 23 or 24 lands? Or maybe even more than that?
Considering all that, should I run 23 or 24 lands? Also is Jace's Sanctum better here? I fear running it because if I play it turn 4, then at ther turn I will see a Dark Petition cast without anyway to counter... *sobs*
I feel like this might be better in the "standard" subforum--possibly in the "deck creation" sub.
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
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I feel like this might be better in the "standard" subforum--possibly in the "deck creation" sub.
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
I tried Clash of Wills, but I prefer Calculated Dismissal for the Scry 2. It's really important late game, when I need to keep having gas and not drawing more and more lands (lost games because of it).
The only thing Clash of Wills help is that it indeed can be played with 2 lands. It is sometimes great. But late game I feel it has basically no uses, while Calculated Dismissal is good on turn 3 and turn X to filter up your next draws...
But I agree with you whole-heartedly! Im gonna run 25 lands! Will move the Trail of Evidence to the SD...
I feel like this might be better in the "standard" subforum--possibly in the "deck creation" sub.
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
I tried Clash of Wills, but I prefer Calculated Dismissal for the Scry 2. It's really important late game, when I need to keep having gas and not drawing more and more lands (lost games because of it).
The only thing Clash of Wills help is that it indeed can be played with 2 lands. It is sometimes great. But late game I feel it has basically no uses, while Calculated Dismissal is good on turn 3 and turn X to filter up your next draws...
But I agree with you whole-heartedly! Im gonna run 25 lands! Will move the Trail of Evidence to the SD...
OK, scry is nice, but, late game that is all it is likely to give you. I'd bet clash has more play at both the early and late game much of the time. Also, don't discount a counterspell on turn two--that one turn difference is HUGE.
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Card selection discussion aside, I'm gonna go with 24 lands for this one. While it is important to be hitting your 4th land drop, there's a lot of drawing/scrying mechanics that should help with this. Play it with 24, and if you're not getting quite all the land you need, bump to 25, but I think we can all agree 23 is probably too few for the reasons mentioned above.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Card selection discussion aside, I'm gonna go with 24 lands for this one. While it is important to be hitting your 4th land drop, there's a lot of drawing/scrying mechanics that should help with this. Play it with 24, and if you're not getting quite all the land you need, bump to 25, but I think we can all agree 23 is probably too few for the reasons mentioned above.
That's exactly the problem. Some games I hit way few lands, while others I hit way too many. I don't know if it's because Im a bad shuffler or if it's a land problem... *sigh*
But I believe 25 might be better so I can begin with at least 2-3 lands on the starting hand more often. Mulligan is a pain...
Also, after I get to 5-6, I can likely use the scry/draw to filter and not take much more lands than I need. So perhaps we should err on the "more lands" side, don't you think?
Modern: GRB Jund BRG RBU Grixis Delver UBR Legacy: W Death & Taxes W GRB Punishing Jund BRG GUR Canadian Threshold RUG Commander: RUG Maelstrom Wanderer GUR
You're right. I took out Void Shatter instead (not sure if it's a good move with all these World Breakers around, but we'll see).
Btw, I played with the new deck on MTGO and won 2-1 against a green-red ramp deck that had Chandra, World Breaker, Tireless Tracker and Ulamog. I lost first game but won games 2 and 3 due to a Thing in the Ice cast turn 2 that soon flipped and brought unimaginable destruction! With Thing in the Ice in there, I basically only needed to counter or tap all his moves and GG. I love this deck. Also, I found out that I love Send to Sleep, even more than Engulf the Shore, because the former can be cast for 2 and does NOT need any target, meaning we can play it just to take out a counter from TiTi. Engulf the Shore, on the other hand, is way costier and pretty much always send TiTi back to our hands (unless it has 1 counter).
Therefore, my updated deck is as follows (now I have 15 cost-2 cards, yay!)
You can only favor the odds of getting the proper lands...the rest is the random factor and you cant do anything about it...so, worry about what you can influence...
24 lands out of 60 cards is 2 lands out of 5 cards... meaning you'll hit your 6th land after 14 cards on average... and like you said, you need 6 lands for your deck to win...so odds says you'll play a turn or two without puting a land on the table....
Funny facts, ive just builded a deck, and my first playtesting, I had 5 lands in my hands on turn 1....for a 16 lands deck...that wasnt cool...but obviously I couldnt start to pick lands off the deck because of that...so I did more play testing and yeah, my deck works as intended
From my experience, the number of lands you run depends directly upon the number of land drops you need to make your deck work. The normal 24/36 split is if you need to see four consistently on your first four turns. It looks to me like you can control ***** on turn three, but you don't have answers prior to that. The chap above me also has a very good point on six to win. In this case, I'd say run 26/34 with whatever fast mana (if any) is in Standard.
Edit: Mage-Ring Network is NOT fast mana, or even a good card.
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Anyhow, I created a deck that is MONOBLUE, has a lot of card draw and some scry. On the same time, it needs 6 mana for Rise from the Tides, its win-condition. Could anyone give me pointers on if I should run 23 or 24 lands? Or maybe even more than that?
The deck list is as follows:
1x Blighted Cataract
2x Mage-Ring Network
20x Island
Instants (28)
4x Anticipate
4x Artificer's Epiphany
4x Hydrolash
4x Calculated Dismissal
4x Void Shatter
4x Scatter to the Winds
4x Engulf the Shore
3x Rise from the Tides
Creature (4)
4x Thing in the Ice
Enchantment (2)
2x Trail of Evidence
Considering all that, should I run 23 or 24 lands? Also is Jace's Sanctum better here? I fear running it because if I play it turn 4, then at ther turn I will see a Dark Petition cast without anyway to counter... *sobs*
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
I tried Clash of Wills, but I prefer Calculated Dismissal for the Scry 2. It's really important late game, when I need to keep having gas and not drawing more and more lands (lost games because of it).
The only thing Clash of Wills help is that it indeed can be played with 2 lands. It is sometimes great. But late game I feel it has basically no uses, while Calculated Dismissal is good on turn 3 and turn X to filter up your next draws...
But I agree with you whole-heartedly! Im gonna run 25 lands! Will move the Trail of Evidence to the SD...
OK, scry is nice, but, late game that is all it is likely to give you. I'd bet clash has more play at both the early and late game much of the time. Also, don't discount a counterspell on turn two--that one turn difference is HUGE.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
That's exactly the problem. Some games I hit way few lands, while others I hit way too many. I don't know if it's because Im a bad shuffler or if it's a land problem... *sigh*
But I believe 25 might be better so I can begin with at least 2-3 lands on the starting hand more often. Mulligan is a pain...
Also, after I get to 5-6, I can likely use the scry/draw to filter and not take much more lands than I need. So perhaps we should err on the "more lands" side, don't you think?
Modern:
GRB Jund BRG
RBU Grixis Delver UBR
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes W
GRB Punishing Jund BRG
GUR Canadian Threshold RUG
Commander:
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer GUR
You're right. I took out Void Shatter instead (not sure if it's a good move with all these World Breakers around, but we'll see).
Btw, I played with the new deck on MTGO and won 2-1 against a green-red ramp deck that had Chandra, World Breaker, Tireless Tracker and Ulamog. I lost first game but won games 2 and 3 due to a Thing in the Ice cast turn 2 that soon flipped and brought unimaginable destruction! With Thing in the Ice in there, I basically only needed to counter or tap all his moves and GG. I love this deck. Also, I found out that I love Send to Sleep, even more than Engulf the Shore, because the former can be cast for 2 and does NOT need any target, meaning we can play it just to take out a counter from TiTi. Engulf the Shore, on the other hand, is way costier and pretty much always send TiTi back to our hands (unless it has 1 counter).
Therefore, my updated deck is as follows (now I have 15 cost-2 cards, yay!)
1x Blighted Cataract
2x Mage-Ring Network
20x Island
Instants (28)
4x Anticipate
4x Clash of Wills
2x Send to Sleep
2x Engulf the Shore
4x Artificer's Epiphany
4x Hydrolash
4x Calculated Dismissal
4x Scatter to the Winds
3x Rise from the Tides
Creature (4)
4x Thing in the Ice
Side Deck (15)
4x Invasive Surgery
2x Engulf the Shore
2x Send to Sleep
4x Adverse Conditions
3x Trail of Evidence
24 lands out of 60 cards is 2 lands out of 5 cards... meaning you'll hit your 6th land after 14 cards on average... and like you said, you need 6 lands for your deck to win...so odds says you'll play a turn or two without puting a land on the table....
Funny facts, ive just builded a deck, and my first playtesting, I had 5 lands in my hands on turn 1....for a 16 lands deck...that wasnt cool...but obviously I couldnt start to pick lands off the deck because of that...so I did more play testing and yeah, my deck works as intended
Edit: Mage-Ring Network is NOT fast mana, or even a good card.