I used to play a fair amount of MTG many years ago, when the game
first came out. I played online mostly.
I became somewhat discouraged with the hobby, and took a break for
many years.
Now many years later, I have some questions about how the game has
changed, and if this hobby is worth pursuing now for myself.
Question 1 - One of the obstacles to playing MTG was the rising
cost of cards. In particular, certain dominant and powerful cards
were only available to those with a lot of money. It was hard to
be competitive without going broke. Has this changed?
Question 2 - Another thing that put me off was the constant rotation
of cards every few years. You could spend a lot of effort getting to
know certain decks and developing strategies, but then a few years later
those cards aren't really relevant anymore. How can you play a game
that changes this often? Its like practicing chess, and then one
day the bishop suddenly moves horizontally!
Question 3 - I also noticed the lack of a reward structure in MTG.
Particularly in online play, you have to spend a lot of money on
cards, but you can't really win anything back. And in real life
tournaments, only the pro players seem to make money, correct?
Question 4 - If I started playing again, which decks would I
focus on? There are 14,000 cards now!!! Where to begin?
Thank you for addressing my questions. I love the game of MTG, but
have these concerns.
1. Absolutely not. If anything, the game has gotten even more expensive. Budget options are available, but top tier decks require an investment.
2. Magic currently has only one rotating format, Standard. Modern has semi-frequent bannings, but those might decrease with the discontinuation of the Modern PT. If you don't like rotation, don't play a rotating format.
3. Making money in MTG requires a rare level of luck and/or talent. Play it for fun.
4. You have to choose a format to get a detailed answer. What kinds of decks do you like? Aggro, combo, control, midrange, etc?
I used to play a fair amount of MTG many years ago, when the game
first came out. I played online mostly.
I became somewhat discouraged with the hobby, and took a break for
many years.
Now many years later, I have some questions about how the game has
changed, and if this hobby is worth pursuing now for myself.
Question 1 - One of the obstacles to playing MTG was the rising
cost of cards. In particular, certain dominant and powerful cards
were only available to those with a lot of money. It was hard to
be competitive without going broke. Has this changed?
Question 2 - Another thing that put me off was the constant rotation
of cards every few years. You could spend a lot of effort getting to
know certain decks and developing strategies, but then a few years later
those cards aren't really relevant anymore. How can you play a game
that changes this often? Its like practicing chess, and then one
day the bishop suddenly moves horizontally!
Question 3 - I also noticed the lack of a reward structure in MTG.
Particularly in online play, you have to spend a lot of money on
cards, but you can't really win anything back. And in real life
tournaments, only the pro players seem to make money, correct?
Question 4 - If I started playing again, which decks would I
focus on? There are 14,000 cards now!!! Where to begin?
Thank you for addressing my questions. I love the game of MTG, but
have these concerns.
1) top tier decks are around the same price as they have always been in standard. In eternal formats, cards have only gotten more expensive. Dont let the price discourage you, as most decks can be "eased in to", a lot of expensive cards can be replaced until you can budget for them
2)only standard rotates. This used to frustrate me as well, now i only play modern and edh. Trust me, if you have a local mtg scene, you have a local modern/edh scene. I highly recommend these two formats
3) dont get into a hobby expecting to get paid out for it. Just play it to have fun. If you wish to profit from it, either invest the time into it to make it a profession or just study the market and become a speculator. Online has become cheaper, and it is quite easy to "go infinite" in online leagues and never pay to play once you have assembled a deck or two. In paper, it is more expensive, but your cards hold their value and are easy to liquidate if you choose to get out.
4)whay do you like? Aggro? Combo? Control? Midrange? First you must decide a format you wish to play, then decide which types of deck to play before we can offer any suggestions. I highly recommend downloading cockatrice or xmage to playtest lots of decks for free to figure out what type of player you are
All of your concerns are at least as true now as they were when you first started. If you want to play competitively, you'll spend a lot of money.
There are ways around the problem of rotation ("Eternal formats" aren't supposed to rotate, but they're extremely expensive to get into, and between bannings/unbannings and new cards entering the game, they end up with a good amount of deck churn).
If you want a quick-and-dirty summary of what decks have been doing well online in different formats and how much they cost, check out this site.
As someone who really likes playing Magic, but who really hates spending a lot of money on cards, I maintain "peasant cube" - a set of a few hundred commons and uncommons that I can get some friends together to draft. One idea anyway, as someone else who looks at the cost of a top-tier deck list and blanches.
Well, first of all, I'm glad you're considering wearing your cape again!
I'll try to give some insights, as I recently just returned to the game after a long break aswell.
1.
Sadly, not at all. But it depends on what do you wanna play. Do you wanna wear your cape at a kitchen table with a tight-knit circle of friends? Or do you want to qualify for and play at premier tournament levels? Both are different approaches. First case scenario you can build decent pauper-ish decks or even a pauper cube and have a blast, for the latter, you'll definetly will have to put a lot more money into it in comparison.
2.
It's a pick-your-poison type of deal, right now the only "rotating" format is Standard, and rotations will come up about twice a year, with the next one being sept 30 having Magic Origins and Dragons of Tarkir rotating out and Kaladesh rotating in, then, early in 207 we get Aether revolt added to the pool. After that, the next rotation will probably be fall 2018. So some cards are bound to drop in price after rotations happen, some might remain the same, and some others might spike to the skies.
The non-rotating formats are Vintage, Legacy, Modern and EDH (Commander), however the entry-price at a somewhat competitive level for these -With EDH probably being an exception- is significantly higher than standard, and legacy and vintage being complete turn downs for some people (Read: ABUR Duals and P9 amongst other stuff). However most people do like modern because its non-rotating factor, other than the feared "shake up bans" which to my understanding won't happen as often, and in some cases the price isn't as high as Legacy or vintage. I mentioned EDH cause it's one of the -if not the most- popular format down here, but it might not be on your local gaming area.
3.
I'm not a pro-player myself, but there are some rewards. Most LGSs have official promos for FNM, some others even have Starcity game night, which is an unnofficial set of promos (Themed Tokens, Pins, and sometimes Playmats), and in most cases the entry fee goes towards the prize pool. Some LGSs have specific prizes: Highly Chased rares/mythics, some others give store credit, some other bigger events have cash prizes, etc, so if you win you're guaranteed something in return.
My best "Pro attempt" run was about 10 years ago at a PTQ (Back then there were not PPTQ or RPTQs), I finished 6-2 and got squat. IDK what the reward structure is for the pro tours and Grand Prixes. It's probably stated somewhere on the WotC website.
4.
My first bet would be to take a look at some tournament reports and pick a deck you might like from those and give it ago, however if you don't wanna spend a lot on tier 1-2 decks in any given format you can take a look at these forums and browse for a deck you might like under the "development" sections. I mention these cause most of those decks arent that expensive in comparison to the high-end decks. My most recent standard deck cost me well under $60, which is about the same as if I bought a 2-of of the more powerful standard cards, sure it's not gonna win me any premier tournament, but its fun to play and I've piloted it twice to FNM's prize range.
Magic is a wonderful game to play! That being said, I usually deter people from starting to play unless they are top middle to upper class in terms of finance. The game is terribly expensive unless you don't mind going 0-6 each FNM.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Wow! It appears from your responses that the game hasn't changed that much.
Bfrie, what did you mean by "going infinite" online? I have some decks online
with some uncommon and mostly common cards, that I had used for a while, but
I lose with it about 70% of the time.
I agree that you should play a game for fun and not reward. However, if you
have invested a lot of time and money into something, its not unusual to
expect some reward as well.
Someone might pay lots of money for bridge lessons because one loves the game
of bridge, but eventually they will win money in tournaments and it will pay off.
Even an average chess player can win some money competing against players of his
similar rating. Poker obviously has a great reward structure.
MTG doesn't seem reward structured like most games and hobbies. I don't
really want to win a place mat Although perhaps there is potential
for smaller prize pools, as mentioned, but I haven't explored that yet.
It sounds like modern is the format I should stick to. Is there a way to learn
about the 14,000 cards that are past, or is that unnecessary? Will Xmage
allow me to do that?
I'm not sure what strategy I would choose, I used to like playing green and
red, and sometimes black. I liked blue, but it was kind of tricky.
I am definitely the kind of person who likes to know everything about
a complicated strategy game, otherwise I feel I am missing out.
I'd like to be able to watch MTG on Twitch and appreciate the strategies and
understand what is going on, but with the amount of cards in circulation,
the game also seems somewhat inaccessible to average spectators.
Can you guys watch the pros and appreciate what they are doing, even if you
can't afford the cards they are using?
I wrote the WOTC with some of my concerns, but they haven't responded yet,
not sure if they can guide me in these matters.
Wow! It appears from your responses that the game hasn't changed that much.
Bfrie, what did you mean by "going infinite" online? I have some decks online
with some uncommon and mostly common cards, that I had used for a while, but
I lose with it about 70% of the time.
Going infinite refers to the point at which a tournament's prize support allows you to enter another tourney. Basically, it lets you play for a long time without putting in any more money.
I agree that you should play a game for fun and not reward. However, if you
have invested a lot of time and money into something, its not unusual to
expect some reward as well.
This is an example of the Sunk Cost Fallacy. There is absolutely no reason to expect to get significant rewards just because you spend a lot of time and money. Most tournaments have some sort of prize pool, but it's very rare to recoup the money you put in.
Someone might pay lots of money for bridge lessons because one loves the game
of bridge, but eventually they will win money in tournaments and it will pay off.
Even an average chess player can win some money competing against players of his
similar rating. Poker obviously has a great reward structure.
MTG doesn't seem reward structured like most games and hobbies. I don't
really want to win a place mat Although perhaps there is potential
for smaller prize pools, as mentioned, but I haven't explored that yet.
I'm not trying to tell you that it's impossible to win money through MTG, but you shouldn't expect to do it. Also, most tournament prize pools tend to be in the form of packs, store credit, or tix in MTGO. Most of the real cash comes from selling cards.
It sounds like modern is the format I should stick to. Is there a way to learn
about the 14,000 cards that are past, or is that unnecessary? Will Xmage
allow me to do that?
I'm not sure what strategy I would choose, I used to like playing green and
red, and sometimes black. I liked blue, but it was kind of tricky.
I am definitely the kind of person who likes to know everything about
a complicated strategy game, otherwise I feel I am missing out.
You can find the official card database at Gatherer and there is one on this site. Don't define decks by color. Mana fixing in Modern is very strong, so most decks can just play whatever colors they need. The first three colors you named form Jund, a very powerful and pricy midrange deck that has since lost a little popularity in recent months. If you want to browse decks, go to midnight_baker's link and click on "Modern" on the list at the top of the page.
I'd like to be able to watch MTG on Twitch and appreciate the strategies and
understand what is going on, but with the amount of cards in circulation,
the game also seems somewhat inaccessible to average spectators.
Can you guys watch the pros and appreciate what they are doing, even if you
can't afford the cards they are using?
I wrote the WOTC with some of my concerns, but they haven't responded yet,
not sure if they can guide me in these matters.
Interesting discussion, thanks.
Don't expect much of a response from the company unless you use social media. Magic is a huge game, so it's best to ask your questions on this forum or to visit one of your local game stores and talk to people there.
It sounds like modern is the format I should stick to. Is there a way to learn
about the 14,000 cards that are past, or is that unnecessary?
Learning the 14,000 cards of the past won't be very efficient use of your time as most of them are not played in Modern card pool.
Start off by learning the cards which are immediately relevant to the Modern metagame. It would also be helpful to familiarize yourself with the cards which are played in your local Modern metagame as you'll be seeing them most often.
Wow! It appears from your responses that the game hasn't changed that much.
Bfrie, what did you mean by "going infinite" online? I have some decks online
with some uncommon and mostly common cards, that I had used for a while, but
I lose with it about 70% of the time.
I agree that you should play a game for fun and not reward. However, if you
have invested a lot of time and money into something, its not unusual to
expect some reward as well.
Someone might pay lots of money for bridge lessons because one loves the game
of bridge, but eventually they will win money in tournaments and it will pay off.
Even an average chess player can win some money competing against players of his
similar rating. Poker obviously has a great reward structure.
MTG doesn't seem reward structured like most games and hobbies. I don't
really want to win a place mat Although perhaps there is potential
for smaller prize pools, as mentioned, but I haven't explored that yet.
It sounds like modern is the format I should stick to. Is there a way to learn
about the 14,000 cards that are past, or is that unnecessary? Will Xmage
allow me to do that?
I'm not sure what strategy I would choose, I used to like playing green and
red, and sometimes black. I liked blue, but it was kind of tricky.
I am definitely the kind of person who likes to know everything about
a complicated strategy game, otherwise I feel I am missing out.
I'd like to be able to watch MTG on Twitch and appreciate the strategies and
understand what is going on, but with the amount of cards in circulation,
the game also seems somewhat inaccessible to average spectators.
Can you guys watch the pros and appreciate what they are doing, even if you
can't afford the cards they are using?
I wrote the WOTC with some of my concerns, but they haven't responded yet,
not sure if they can guide me in these matters.
Interesting discussion, thanks.
going infinite occurs when you win frequently enough that your wins pay for your entry into the next league. if you have a deck capable of winning consistently (aka going 3-2) and you are capable enough with that deck to perform well with it, you should be able to average a record of 3-2 in mtgo leagues and almost never have to actually put money into it. this is of course easier said then done, as you must invest in a deck and time to learn that deck, and it is still possible for you to just hit a string of bad luck and get discouraged, but i have just finally run out of my $10 i put into mtgo 3 months ago.
as far as prizes in paper go, you should expect to basically get 2-3 packs of cards every time you go to a FNM event. i would check with your LGS to figure out their prize structures first, but around here going 2-2 will get you 2 packs of cards. if getting "rewarded" for your play is of significant concern to you, then i highly suggest not investing large amounts of money in magic, as payouts only become significant when you place very well in high level play. most people will not participate in more than local events, and most people are more than happy about this.
as far as the modern format goes, it is a rather diverse and expansive format. it is a valuable skill to eventually be able to be 95% certain what deck you are playing against after they play their first land. learning about every single card is both extreme and unnecessary though, as out of those 14,000 cards, probably around 1000 of them at most see any actual play, and of those 1000 only about 200 of them see significant play in top tier decks. just simply learning the decks in tier 1 and tier 2 will suffice. cockatrice/xmage are both great ways of learning about a format.
good news! green and red are just about the best colors in all of modern! you have tons of choices in those colors, and tons of strategies. i am always of the opinion that building an extremely budget aggro deck is one of the best ways to get into modern, as they are simple to learn, and even budget aggro brews will have game against other decks in the format simply because of the fact that you can punish the extremely slow decks in the format. plus, aggro decks are the easiest decks that can be budgeted below $100.
when the time comes to actually build a deck in modern, expect to shell out betweeen $500 and $1000 for most top tier decks, with the huge outlier of jund being $2000. most of this cost will be in your mana base, so sticking to a 2 color deck at first allows you to skimp here at first and slowly upgrade
How much money do you think I'd need to invest online in order to eventually "go infinite"?
$500 is a ton, but $2000 is almost crazy, unless you're competing for that much.
I guess I'll stop fixating on money, I just think this game seems a little crazy
in an economic sense. I cannot think of any hobbies that require that sort of
investment.
I will check out the card database, but I find it a bit strange that so many
cards were printed, but so few are relevant.
What about all those other cards, why do they not matter?
Do you think playing the MTG video games like Duels of the Planeswalkers is a
good way to learn about the cards and the history of the game?
Are you guys able to follow MTG on Twitch and understand it?
Going "infinite" on MTGO is largely related to your skill in draft/Limited. People that go infinite tend to have a decent understanding of the format, as it requires a mindset and eye for building that is separate from constructed. Each draft will cost money unless you open something you can sell to a bot to cover the draft. So the longer you take to learn how to draft, the more money you will spend until you go infinite. The cost of learning how to play well enough to go infinite is exponential and doesn't really have a cap since it's entirely up to the player's skill development. It's a really nice goal, but will require an investment of time and money.
As for money, the fixation is indeed a bit silly. Whether people are into cars, video games or a number of other things, hobbies tend to cost money. With Magic you can pick and choose how much money you invest by sculpting your experience around what you can afford. If you want to play competitive and be in the Top 8 it's going to cost you, especially older formats. If you want to play Commander/EDH, Pauper, do a draft for $15 a week at FNM and build up a collection that way, or just have fun with friends then you're pretty free and open to set how much you want to spend.
The recently released Magic Duels is free to play and is great for learning how to play Magic, and I would highly recommend it. As for your question about Twitch, it depends on who is streaming and the coverage is hit or miss when watching an event. YouTube is full of great archived event videos and videos explaining all sorts of stuff. One of my favorite YouTube CHannels is Budget MTG Decks, which may help with your concern regarding the cost of the game They also have a lot of other excellent videos for beginners and people just returning or getting into Magic, including a series on how to play and then more advanced videos.
You're talking about money, you'll be spending money, not earning some...I don't know where you're average chess player is making money but afterall, they only have to pay for one board...after that its all income while mtg is constant spending for new cards
If you wanna play magic as a hobby aka for fun, I suggest playing with friends and make you're own rules...if you don't want to spend money, you can easely say, lets play with common only.... a complete set of commons x4 really doesnt cost anything...
As for spectating, I don't think MtG makes for a very good spectator "sport" at all, for (almost) anyone. Yes, there will always be exceptions, but honestly, it's so much more interesting to actually play.
I recommend getting into Modern, because it is not a rotating format, there are a lot of decks to choose from - or you can try brewing of course! - and costs tend to be lower than, say, Legacy (let alone Vintage...)
The other typical way to go is to play EDH. Also fun, and plenty of players out there.
1.
The thing that's changed is that all the 14 year old kids that use to not be able to afford to dump $500 on a deck now have adult jobs and they can.
But that only applies if you feel like taking down sanctioned constructed tournaments. If you're OK just playing for fun, you can certainly play casually. You can still make budget decks that can win a match sometimes at FNM. Some people have draft cubes, that you can draft for free, etc
2.
Back in your day, you might have had this thing called "Type 1" Today, we call that type Vintage, but we have other non-rotating formats too like Legacy or Modern. Again, it's expensive if you want to take down a tournament, but it is still possible to sleeve up a sub-optimal deck sometimes win some matches with it.
3.
What do you think the word "pro" means?
4.
You can begin with drafts. Some people do nothing but drafts. Essentially you buy 3 packs(and perhaps a fourth pack for the prize pool), you draft them with 7 other players, and you make a deck out of the cards that you drafted. If you want to play casual constructed, you can build a deck out of those cards.
Conclusion:
If you don't feel like continually investing a ton of time and effort and capital into any game, then you're not going to be a truly competitive player, but you don't have to be competitive to have fun with the game.
I guess I'll stop fixating on money, I just think this game seems a little crazy
in an economic sense. I cannot think of any hobbies that require that sort of
investment.
Most hobbies/recreational sports start to get expensive the moment you want to take them very seriously. For sports, you can get relatively cheap equipment for your sport of choice, but as soon as you want to play more competitively (not even pro level), you probably will spend money on better equipment, lessons, and paying fees to rent field space. Golf is one of those sports hobbies that can get really expensive.
Photography: Sure, you can get a regular camera and take pictures, but the moment you want to take that to the next level, you start looking to pay for better cameras, lens, flashes, software, and maybe even some private instruction.
Billards/Pool: Sure, you can use the house cue stick, but the moment you want to take that to the next level, you are looking to get your own cue stick (which starts at $100 USD) and maybe some private lessons. If you want your own pool table, that costs money too.
Learning an instrument: Instruments are generally expensive, and you probably need to pay for some music lessons if you want to take your playing to the next level.
It's best to view hobbies as recreational activities that make you happy about participating in them, rather than trying to figure out a way to make the hobby start paying out money.
Unfortunately I'd have to advise against playing MTG as it's just raging expensive with no reprieve in sight. I've basically stopped buying cards almost completely because of it and only desire to finish getting the last four lands for my dredgevine deck. Once that's done I'm not buying for a long, long time.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think I now have a pretty good idea of what this hobby is about these days.
It sounds to me like I need to learn about the different formats and pick a level
of investment that I would be comfortable with.
Limited and Modern play sounds like what I would focus on, with an emphasis on not
spending much money in the beginning.
I suppose most people started that way, and then some of them became devoted to the
game and decided it was time to spend more and try to become pro. I suppose a hobby
can be taken to any level of commitment, as you point out.
I am wondering about one more thing. Is it possible to get lucky and buy a booster
pack or other pack and discover some rare and amazing and valuable card?
It is this chance to score big that has motivated baseball card collectors and other
card hobbies.
Or perhaps someone who has slowly collected over the years could pool their cards
and sell them for a chance to build a pro deck later on down the line?
If there is hope of slowly grinding your way to the top with some luck and good
fortune, that would level the playing field and make the game more equal for all.
You're question serm vast and general but regarding getting a booster with some.valuable cards, no, there is not...rather crude...
But lets say you buy a booster of the latest edition.... you'll pay what.. 4$? ...ok maybe you'll get the rarest cards...but how much would it be.... 30$? (prices tends to go up after the set gets dicontinued and that a card has been proven to be a master card)...You're still far from that 500$ deck we're talking about and chances are, you'll be needing this card to put it in your deck...
When you referenced poker in an earlier post, I wanted to tell you that this isn't anything like that. You can't grind your way to the top; the rake is just too high. Also, at high levels, cheating is more common than you might expect and collusion is borderline epidemic. The tournament structure is the biggest cause of all the collusion, but it isn't changing any time soon.
You can either play casually and have fun (it is a GREAT game) or you can sink a ton of time and money into it to be competitive. What you can't do is be slightly better than people at your level and have it be mildly profitable the same way you can in poker. You can, however, keep the costs to minimum with certain format selections.
I am wondering about one more thing. Is it possible to get lucky and buy a booster
pack or other pack and discover some rare and amazing and valuable card?
It is this chance to score big that has motivated baseball card collectors and other
card hobbies.
Or perhaps someone who has slowly collected over the years could pool their cards
and sell them for a chance to build a pro deck later on down the line?
If there is hope of slowly grinding your way to the top with some luck and good
fortune, that would level the playing field and make the game more equal for all.
Please tell me there is some hope
This is actually a someehat viable route, but not in the eay you are describing. Buying packs of cards is fun, but it is not a viable route to building a deck, you will almost always spend more on packs than you did on just flat out buying the cards you needed
If you start with a somewhat budget deck, however, and bring it to events at your LGS, you will typically get packs as your prize payout. Every once in awhile you will get lucky and open something valuable, which you can then trade off to improve your deck. As you improve your deck, you will win more prize packs, and giving you more chances to hit that $30 standard staple. I actually built a deck in this fashion, it took awhile and some incredibly lucky pulls (LotV, vendillion clique, polluted delta expedition to name a few)
Limited has fewer upfront costs, but the price per event is higher, and the cards you end up with are less likely to retain resale value than constructed-playable cards you cherrypick as singles. It's definitely a way to go to the game store every once in a while and play real seriously without spending a lot of cash, but it's not cheap if you keep playing it for an extended period, and it's unlikely that you'll end up with a good foothold to get into constructed formats from Drafting alone (unless you spend a whole lot of money going frequently, which again undermines the concept of playing limited for savings).
Basically, don't try to get into competitive MtG if you aren't comfortable losing a good chunk of money in the process.
Basically, don't try to get into competitive MtG if you aren't comfortable losing a good chunk of money in the process.
That sounds like the common theme of this thread.
Do you think WOTC should change anything about the game to make it more
equal and competetive for all, or do you think they should leave it the
way it is?
What WotC should do from a business standpoint, and what I'd like them to do to are different things.
They seem to be doing quite well from a financial standpoint, so it's probably in their best interest to ride this out with current policies in place.
What I'd like to see is an overhaul in WotC's reprint policy to more aggressively reprint historically tournament-caliber cards. I'd like to see more copies of competitive-level cards going in more players hands, but I imagine WotC sees that at odds with their bottom line.
If they should make the game more competitive for those who would like to spend as few as possible by removing the rarity is basically asking the same question as why dont we remove all cars on the market to only produce Ferrari... the answer is pretty obvious, they wouldnt make as much money, most cards would become obsolete and it would become no more than a boardgame
first came out. I played online mostly.
I became somewhat discouraged with the hobby, and took a break for
many years.
Now many years later, I have some questions about how the game has
changed, and if this hobby is worth pursuing now for myself.
Question 1 - One of the obstacles to playing MTG was the rising
cost of cards. In particular, certain dominant and powerful cards
were only available to those with a lot of money. It was hard to
be competitive without going broke. Has this changed?
Question 2 - Another thing that put me off was the constant rotation
of cards every few years. You could spend a lot of effort getting to
know certain decks and developing strategies, but then a few years later
those cards aren't really relevant anymore. How can you play a game
that changes this often? Its like practicing chess, and then one
day the bishop suddenly moves horizontally!
Question 3 - I also noticed the lack of a reward structure in MTG.
Particularly in online play, you have to spend a lot of money on
cards, but you can't really win anything back. And in real life
tournaments, only the pro players seem to make money, correct?
Question 4 - If I started playing again, which decks would I
focus on? There are 14,000 cards now!!! Where to begin?
Thank you for addressing my questions. I love the game of MTG, but
have these concerns.
2. Magic currently has only one rotating format, Standard. Modern has semi-frequent bannings, but those might decrease with the discontinuation of the Modern PT. If you don't like rotation, don't play a rotating format.
3. Making money in MTG requires a rare level of luck and/or talent. Play it for fun.
4. You have to choose a format to get a detailed answer. What kinds of decks do you like? Aggro, combo, control, midrange, etc?
1) top tier decks are around the same price as they have always been in standard. In eternal formats, cards have only gotten more expensive. Dont let the price discourage you, as most decks can be "eased in to", a lot of expensive cards can be replaced until you can budget for them
2)only standard rotates. This used to frustrate me as well, now i only play modern and edh. Trust me, if you have a local mtg scene, you have a local modern/edh scene. I highly recommend these two formats
3) dont get into a hobby expecting to get paid out for it. Just play it to have fun. If you wish to profit from it, either invest the time into it to make it a profession or just study the market and become a speculator. Online has become cheaper, and it is quite easy to "go infinite" in online leagues and never pay to play once you have assembled a deck or two. In paper, it is more expensive, but your cards hold their value and are easy to liquidate if you choose to get out.
4)whay do you like? Aggro? Combo? Control? Midrange? First you must decide a format you wish to play, then decide which types of deck to play before we can offer any suggestions. I highly recommend downloading cockatrice or xmage to playtest lots of decks for free to figure out what type of player you are
5) do you work for goat sim? Love that game!
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
There are ways around the problem of rotation ("Eternal formats" aren't supposed to rotate, but they're extremely expensive to get into, and between bannings/unbannings and new cards entering the game, they end up with a good amount of deck churn).
If you want a quick-and-dirty summary of what decks have been doing well online in different formats and how much they cost, check out this site.
As someone who really likes playing Magic, but who really hates spending a lot of money on cards, I maintain "peasant cube" - a set of a few hundred commons and uncommons that I can get some friends together to draft. One idea anyway, as someone else who looks at the cost of a top-tier deck list and blanches.
I'll try to give some insights, as I recently just returned to the game after a long break aswell.
1.
Sadly, not at all. But it depends on what do you wanna play. Do you wanna wear your cape at a kitchen table with a tight-knit circle of friends? Or do you want to qualify for and play at premier tournament levels? Both are different approaches. First case scenario you can build decent pauper-ish decks or even a pauper cube and have a blast, for the latter, you'll definetly will have to put a lot more money into it in comparison.
2.
It's a pick-your-poison type of deal, right now the only "rotating" format is Standard, and rotations will come up about twice a year, with the next one being sept 30 having Magic Origins and Dragons of Tarkir rotating out and Kaladesh rotating in, then, early in 207 we get Aether revolt added to the pool. After that, the next rotation will probably be fall 2018. So some cards are bound to drop in price after rotations happen, some might remain the same, and some others might spike to the skies.
The non-rotating formats are Vintage, Legacy, Modern and EDH (Commander), however the entry-price at a somewhat competitive level for these -With EDH probably being an exception- is significantly higher than standard, and legacy and vintage being complete turn downs for some people (Read: ABUR Duals and P9 amongst other stuff). However most people do like modern because its non-rotating factor, other than the feared "shake up bans" which to my understanding won't happen as often, and in some cases the price isn't as high as Legacy or vintage. I mentioned EDH cause it's one of the -if not the most- popular format down here, but it might not be on your local gaming area.
3.
I'm not a pro-player myself, but there are some rewards. Most LGSs have official promos for FNM, some others even have Starcity game night, which is an unnofficial set of promos (Themed Tokens, Pins, and sometimes Playmats), and in most cases the entry fee goes towards the prize pool. Some LGSs have specific prizes: Highly Chased rares/mythics, some others give store credit, some other bigger events have cash prizes, etc, so if you win you're guaranteed something in return.
My best "Pro attempt" run was about 10 years ago at a PTQ (Back then there were not PPTQ or RPTQs), I finished 6-2 and got squat. IDK what the reward structure is for the pro tours and Grand Prixes. It's probably stated somewhere on the WotC website.
4.
My first bet would be to take a look at some tournament reports and pick a deck you might like from those and give it ago, however if you don't wanna spend a lot on tier 1-2 decks in any given format you can take a look at these forums and browse for a deck you might like under the "development" sections. I mention these cause most of those decks arent that expensive in comparison to the high-end decks. My most recent standard deck cost me well under $60, which is about the same as if I bought a 2-of of the more powerful standard cards, sure it's not gonna win me any premier tournament, but its fun to play and I've piloted it twice to FNM's prize range.
Hope that helped.
Cheers!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Bfrie, what did you mean by "going infinite" online? I have some decks online
with some uncommon and mostly common cards, that I had used for a while, but
I lose with it about 70% of the time.
I agree that you should play a game for fun and not reward. However, if you
have invested a lot of time and money into something, its not unusual to
expect some reward as well.
Someone might pay lots of money for bridge lessons because one loves the game
of bridge, but eventually they will win money in tournaments and it will pay off.
Even an average chess player can win some money competing against players of his
similar rating. Poker obviously has a great reward structure.
MTG doesn't seem reward structured like most games and hobbies. I don't
really want to win a place mat Although perhaps there is potential
for smaller prize pools, as mentioned, but I haven't explored that yet.
It sounds like modern is the format I should stick to. Is there a way to learn
about the 14,000 cards that are past, or is that unnecessary? Will Xmage
allow me to do that?
I'm not sure what strategy I would choose, I used to like playing green and
red, and sometimes black. I liked blue, but it was kind of tricky.
I am definitely the kind of person who likes to know everything about
a complicated strategy game, otherwise I feel I am missing out.
I'd like to be able to watch MTG on Twitch and appreciate the strategies and
understand what is going on, but with the amount of cards in circulation,
the game also seems somewhat inaccessible to average spectators.
Can you guys watch the pros and appreciate what they are doing, even if you
can't afford the cards they are using?
I wrote the WOTC with some of my concerns, but they haven't responded yet,
not sure if they can guide me in these matters.
Interesting discussion, thanks.
Going infinite refers to the point at which a tournament's prize support allows you to enter another tourney. Basically, it lets you play for a long time without putting in any more money.
This is an example of the Sunk Cost Fallacy. There is absolutely no reason to expect to get significant rewards just because you spend a lot of time and money. Most tournaments have some sort of prize pool, but it's very rare to recoup the money you put in.
I'm not trying to tell you that it's impossible to win money through MTG, but you shouldn't expect to do it. Also, most tournament prize pools tend to be in the form of packs, store credit, or tix in MTGO. Most of the real cash comes from selling cards.
You can find the official card database at Gatherer
and there is one on this site. Don't define decks by color. Mana fixing in Modern is very strong, so most decks can just play whatever colors they need. The first three colors you named form Jund, a very powerful and pricy midrange deck that has since lost a little popularity in recent months. If you want to browse decks, go to midnight_baker's link and click on "Modern" on the list at the top of the page.
Don't expect much of a response from the company unless you use social media. Magic is a huge game, so it's best to ask your questions on this forum or to visit one of your local game stores and talk to people there.
Start off by learning the cards which are immediately relevant to the Modern metagame. It would also be helpful to familiarize yourself with the cards which are played in your local Modern metagame as you'll be seeing them most often.
going infinite occurs when you win frequently enough that your wins pay for your entry into the next league. if you have a deck capable of winning consistently (aka going 3-2) and you are capable enough with that deck to perform well with it, you should be able to average a record of 3-2 in mtgo leagues and almost never have to actually put money into it. this is of course easier said then done, as you must invest in a deck and time to learn that deck, and it is still possible for you to just hit a string of bad luck and get discouraged, but i have just finally run out of my $10 i put into mtgo 3 months ago.
as far as prizes in paper go, you should expect to basically get 2-3 packs of cards every time you go to a FNM event. i would check with your LGS to figure out their prize structures first, but around here going 2-2 will get you 2 packs of cards. if getting "rewarded" for your play is of significant concern to you, then i highly suggest not investing large amounts of money in magic, as payouts only become significant when you place very well in high level play. most people will not participate in more than local events, and most people are more than happy about this.
as far as the modern format goes, it is a rather diverse and expansive format. it is a valuable skill to eventually be able to be 95% certain what deck you are playing against after they play their first land. learning about every single card is both extreme and unnecessary though, as out of those 14,000 cards, probably around 1000 of them at most see any actual play, and of those 1000 only about 200 of them see significant play in top tier decks. just simply learning the decks in tier 1 and tier 2 will suffice. cockatrice/xmage are both great ways of learning about a format.
good news! green and red are just about the best colors in all of modern! you have tons of choices in those colors, and tons of strategies. i am always of the opinion that building an extremely budget aggro deck is one of the best ways to get into modern, as they are simple to learn, and even budget aggro brews will have game against other decks in the format simply because of the fact that you can punish the extremely slow decks in the format. plus, aggro decks are the easiest decks that can be budgeted below $100.
when the time comes to actually build a deck in modern, expect to shell out betweeen $500 and $1000 for most top tier decks, with the huge outlier of jund being $2000. most of this cost will be in your mana base, so sticking to a 2 color deck at first allows you to skimp here at first and slowly upgrade
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
$500 is a ton, but $2000 is almost crazy, unless you're competing for that much.
I guess I'll stop fixating on money, I just think this game seems a little crazy
in an economic sense. I cannot think of any hobbies that require that sort of
investment.
I will check out the card database, but I find it a bit strange that so many
cards were printed, but so few are relevant.
What about all those other cards, why do they not matter?
Do you think playing the MTG video games like Duels of the Planeswalkers is a
good way to learn about the cards and the history of the game?
Are you guys able to follow MTG on Twitch and understand it?
As for money, the fixation is indeed a bit silly. Whether people are into cars, video games or a number of other things, hobbies tend to cost money. With Magic you can pick and choose how much money you invest by sculpting your experience around what you can afford. If you want to play competitive and be in the Top 8 it's going to cost you, especially older formats. If you want to play Commander/EDH, Pauper, do a draft for $15 a week at FNM and build up a collection that way, or just have fun with friends then you're pretty free and open to set how much you want to spend.
The recently released Magic Duels is free to play and is great for learning how to play Magic, and I would highly recommend it. As for your question about Twitch, it depends on who is streaming and the coverage is hit or miss when watching an event. YouTube is full of great archived event videos and videos explaining all sorts of stuff. One of my favorite YouTube CHannels is Budget MTG Decks, which may help with your concern regarding the cost of the game They also have a lot of other excellent videos for beginners and people just returning or getting into Magic, including a series on how to play and then more advanced videos.
(Also known as Xenphire)
You're talking about money, you'll be spending money, not earning some...I don't know where you're average chess player is making money but afterall, they only have to pay for one board...after that its all income while mtg is constant spending for new cards
If you wanna play magic as a hobby aka for fun, I suggest playing with friends and make you're own rules...if you don't want to spend money, you can easely say, lets play with common only.... a complete set of commons x4 really doesnt cost anything...
I recommend getting into Modern, because it is not a rotating format, there are a lot of decks to choose from - or you can try brewing of course! - and costs tend to be lower than, say, Legacy (let alone Vintage...)
The other typical way to go is to play EDH. Also fun, and plenty of players out there.
Or play only/mostly sealed/draft!
The thing that's changed is that all the 14 year old kids that use to not be able to afford to dump $500 on a deck now have adult jobs and they can.
But that only applies if you feel like taking down sanctioned constructed tournaments. If you're OK just playing for fun, you can certainly play casually. You can still make budget decks that can win a match sometimes at FNM. Some people have draft cubes, that you can draft for free, etc
2.
Back in your day, you might have had this thing called "Type 1" Today, we call that type Vintage, but we have other non-rotating formats too like Legacy or Modern. Again, it's expensive if you want to take down a tournament, but it is still possible to sleeve up a sub-optimal deck sometimes win some matches with it.
3.
What do you think the word "pro" means?
4.
You can begin with drafts. Some people do nothing but drafts. Essentially you buy 3 packs(and perhaps a fourth pack for the prize pool), you draft them with 7 other players, and you make a deck out of the cards that you drafted. If you want to play casual constructed, you can build a deck out of those cards.
Conclusion:
If you don't feel like continually investing a ton of time and effort and capital into any game, then you're not going to be a truly competitive player, but you don't have to be competitive to have fun with the game.
Most hobbies/recreational sports start to get expensive the moment you want to take them very seriously. For sports, you can get relatively cheap equipment for your sport of choice, but as soon as you want to play more competitively (not even pro level), you probably will spend money on better equipment, lessons, and paying fees to rent field space. Golf is one of those sports hobbies that can get really expensive.
Photography: Sure, you can get a regular camera and take pictures, but the moment you want to take that to the next level, you start looking to pay for better cameras, lens, flashes, software, and maybe even some private instruction.
Billards/Pool: Sure, you can use the house cue stick, but the moment you want to take that to the next level, you are looking to get your own cue stick (which starts at $100 USD) and maybe some private lessons. If you want your own pool table, that costs money too.
Learning an instrument: Instruments are generally expensive, and you probably need to pay for some music lessons if you want to take your playing to the next level.
It's best to view hobbies as recreational activities that make you happy about participating in them, rather than trying to figure out a way to make the hobby start paying out money.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think I now have a pretty good idea of what this hobby is about these days.
It sounds to me like I need to learn about the different formats and pick a level
of investment that I would be comfortable with.
Limited and Modern play sounds like what I would focus on, with an emphasis on not
spending much money in the beginning.
I suppose most people started that way, and then some of them became devoted to the
game and decided it was time to spend more and try to become pro. I suppose a hobby
can be taken to any level of commitment, as you point out.
I am wondering about one more thing. Is it possible to get lucky and buy a booster
pack or other pack and discover some rare and amazing and valuable card?
It is this chance to score big that has motivated baseball card collectors and other
card hobbies.
Or perhaps someone who has slowly collected over the years could pool their cards
and sell them for a chance to build a pro deck later on down the line?
If there is hope of slowly grinding your way to the top with some luck and good
fortune, that would level the playing field and make the game more equal for all.
Please tell me there is some hope
But lets say you buy a booster of the latest edition.... you'll pay what.. 4$? ...ok maybe you'll get the rarest cards...but how much would it be.... 30$? (prices tends to go up after the set gets dicontinued and that a card has been proven to be a master card)...You're still far from that 500$ deck we're talking about and chances are, you'll be needing this card to put it in your deck...
You can either play casually and have fun (it is a GREAT game) or you can sink a ton of time and money into it to be competitive. What you can't do is be slightly better than people at your level and have it be mildly profitable the same way you can in poker. You can, however, keep the costs to minimum with certain format selections.
This is actually a someehat viable route, but not in the eay you are describing. Buying packs of cards is fun, but it is not a viable route to building a deck, you will almost always spend more on packs than you did on just flat out buying the cards you needed
If you start with a somewhat budget deck, however, and bring it to events at your LGS, you will typically get packs as your prize payout. Every once in awhile you will get lucky and open something valuable, which you can then trade off to improve your deck. As you improve your deck, you will win more prize packs, and giving you more chances to hit that $30 standard staple. I actually built a deck in this fashion, it took awhile and some incredibly lucky pulls (LotV, vendillion clique, polluted delta expedition to name a few)
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Limited has fewer upfront costs, but the price per event is higher, and the cards you end up with are less likely to retain resale value than constructed-playable cards you cherrypick as singles. It's definitely a way to go to the game store every once in a while and play real seriously without spending a lot of cash, but it's not cheap if you keep playing it for an extended period, and it's unlikely that you'll end up with a good foothold to get into constructed formats from Drafting alone (unless you spend a whole lot of money going frequently, which again undermines the concept of playing limited for savings).
Basically, don't try to get into competitive MtG if you aren't comfortable losing a good chunk of money in the process.
That sounds like the common theme of this thread.
Do you think WOTC should change anything about the game to make it more
equal and competetive for all, or do you think they should leave it the
way it is?
They seem to be doing quite well from a financial standpoint, so it's probably in their best interest to ride this out with current policies in place.
What I'd like to see is an overhaul in WotC's reprint policy to more aggressively reprint historically tournament-caliber cards. I'd like to see more copies of competitive-level cards going in more players hands, but I imagine WotC sees that at odds with their bottom line.