The example they gave is that when they play against Rich Shay or Brassman in the Vintage dailies, they know that they are likely streaming and that they both often get advice from other vintage players in their chat.
Do you think that getting help from chat or having a group of pro players during testing all huddled around one laptop is unethical? It certainly isn't something that can be easily enforced by WotC (and you wouldn't want to go after people who are streaming your game). Is MTGO about pitting one mind against another without outside help?
Can you justify it without also justifying ghosting someone's stream? Certainly ghosting doesn't past the sniff test, but I'm allowed to play a game of Magic with my hand face up, so certainly you could attempt to make an argument that ghosting is just using additional available information in the same way as utilizing chat.
Interested to hear your thoughts. In my opinion, I think that it depends on the event (maybe that isn't rational). I think someone who wins a MOCS or something with outside assistance is doing something wrong, but I don't really care if someone spikes a draft in the same way.
Definitely a concern, especially once you go from que play to the higher level PTQ/MOCS stuff. Seems basically unresolvable at this point though, so I have set it aside mentally when I play online.
Its against the TOS to use outside help, and I imagine with WotC trying to get into digital there will be a day of reckoning. Either they change the rules and explicitly allow teams of people to work under one username for sanctioned events, or they begin punishing people who do it blatantly, such as streamers. Neither option seems ideal to me.
Outside of streaming or making a video there is no way for them to know if you have nobody in the room helping you or 50 people in the room helping you. So I think they just don't bother to police it on MTGO. Not even sure if it is even mentioned in the terms and conditions thing they have you click yes to.
I really don't have an issue with that, though I also don't play the higher level events. Not sure if my viewpoint would change if I was playing more of the high level events. Would like to think it would not change.
What I do have issue with is all this peer pressure the streamers and then their mob mentality audience puts on "ghosting". I understand that the chat can be distracting and also give bad advice, but I have seen it give good advice and prevent a player from making a mistake or help them make the right play. Also many times the person doing the streaming is making money from it in some way. There are subscribers, donations, and they get cards or borrow cards from their audience. To me it is like if someone is playing me and their hand is on the table face up for anybody to see walking by, they have an audience behind them they are pandering to and getting advice from, and they are getting paid money but you are some evil person if you happen to look down at that exposed hand. I guess I give into the peer pressure as I just don't bother to watch the streams the few times I know it has happened because I don't want to deal with the aggravation.
Ehhh, but if you're streaming in a serious event and using twitch chat to get help, I think your opponent is completely allowed to also watch your stream and just get perfect information.
As with paper Magic, it is certainly unethical to seek help from outside sources, both within the rules and the social contract. Now whether or not someone wants to do it is personally up to them, still doesn't make it right. Ghosting is illegal and can be punished under certain streaming services, not that it makes it any easier to prove. As with bigger (ie more important) online events, those are usually done in person, but on computers, oddly enough. See the recent MOCS for an example of two people at a table playing with their computers. Easy to enforce when Wizards knows what the two players are looking at.
As with paper Magic, it is certainly unethical to seek help from outside sources, both within the rules and the social contract. Now whether or not someone wants to do it is personally up to them, still doesn't make it right. Ghosting is illegal and can be punished under certain streaming services, not that it makes it any easier to prove. As with bigger (ie more important) online events, those are usually done in person, but on computers, oddly enough. See the recent MOCS for an example of two people at a table playing with their computers. Easy to enforce when Wizards knows what the two players are looking at.
I am curious what country or countries it is illegal in? Also what is the punishment?
As with paper Magic, it is certainly unethical to seek help from outside sources, both within the rules and the social contract. Now whether or not someone wants to do it is personally up to them, still doesn't make it right. Ghosting is illegal and can be punished under certain streaming services, not that it makes it any easier to prove. As with bigger (ie more important) online events, those are usually done in person, but on computers, oddly enough. See the recent MOCS for an example of two people at a table playing with their computers. Easy to enforce when Wizards knows what the two players are looking at.
Sorry, when I said MOCS, I was referring to the monthly qualifiers, not the actual tournament.
I'm not entirely sure that the "rules" (as far as the judging protocols at events) apply to MTGO. Things like slow play and stalling don't exist, other things like failure to maintain game state don't make sense, etc. I think that only the things in the MTGO user agreement dictate what you may or may not do.
I'm not entirely sure that the "rules" (as far as the judging protocols at events) apply to MTGO. Things like slow play and stalling don't exist, other things like failure to maintain game state don't make sense, etc. I think that only the things in the MTGO user agreement dictate what you may or may not do.
You are wrong here; the TOS requires, among other, more specific things, that all tournament rules be followed while playing in competitive events.
Now, not every rule can be followed on MODO, but its more just a catch-all to prevent the kind of mentality you mention, that 'since its online the normal rules don't apply.'
There used to be specific wording about outside help being disallowed and that all gameplay decisions must be your own. I assume that one is still in there, too.
edit for relevant literature:
Quote from WOTC »
10. Do not violate the terms of any official organized play tournament rules as published and updated by Wizard from time to time and at its sole discretion.
and
Quote from MTR »
1.11 Spectators
Any person physically present at a tournament and not in any other category above is a spectator. Spectators are
responsible for remaining silent and passive during matches and other official tournament sections in which
players are also required to be silent. If spectators believe they have observed a rules or policy violation, they are
encouraged to alert a judge as soon as possible. At Regular or Competitive REL, spectators are permitted to ask
the players to pause the match while they alert a judge. At Professional REL, spectators must not interfere with
the match directly
Same for outside notes/googling decklists, etc. It is certainly breaking the rules to do stuff onstream like what Kenji, Rich Shay, Conley, etc are doing when asking about lines of play. They could, potentially, be banned for it under the wording of the current rules. Do we want to condone ignoring inconvenient rules, or do we change the rules, or just let it ride and pretend everything's fine?
Something extremely similar to this happened in Bakuman. Basically the idea was that a strong player does not want help from a hive mind of average players and it may be advantageous initially once it really matters it can become detrimental.
If WotC does anything about streamers getting help from chat they are stupid. Streaming brings in revenue for WotC and they must know it as it gives exposure and makes some people want to buy product whether it's digital or physical. Not to mention, chat is so often wrong in terms of making the correct play. Don't even bring up the MOCS and such, every streamer that streams the MOCS typically has a 5 or 10 minute delay so the chat cannot help and they can't be ghosted. Streaming is way fine. It's also nigh impossible to police outside help on modo for non streamers who could easily have a friend looking over their shoulder suggesting plays to help them win. I don't even know why the rule exists. Hell a friend of mine once said in chat on modo that all these people were telling him what to do against LSV in the control mirror. No punishment whatsoever and that, to me, says they don't care about the 'rule'.
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Yeah, from the perspective of a strictly paper Vintage player who really enjoys watching Vintage streams, it would be a net loss for me if they cracked down on outside assistance. Magic has become a bit of a spectator sport, and the rules probably have to adjust a bit to acknowledge that.
Don't people like Kenji delay their mocs streams x minutes so that can't be a factor but still be enjoyed?
Also isn't it a double edged sword as streaming allows for ghosting. Asking for potential lines of play vs your opponent who may actually be watching your every draw? Seems like a very casual trade-off for most basic events imo.
If WotC does anything about streamers getting help from chat they are stupid. Streaming brings in revenue for WotC and they must know it as it gives exposure and makes some people want to buy product whether it's digital or physical. Not to mention, chat is so often wrong in terms of making the correct play. Don't even bring up the MOCS and such, every streamer that streams the MOCS typically has a 5 or 10 minute delay so the chat cannot help and they can't be ghosted. Streaming is way fine. It's also nigh impossible to police outside help on modo for non streamers who could easily have a friend looking over their shoulder suggesting plays to help them win. I don't even know why the rule exists. Hell a friend of mine once said in chat on modo that all these people were telling him what to do against LSV in the control mirror. No punishment whatsoever and that, to me, says they don't care about the 'rule'.
I agree with this.
I watch quite a few streams (limited only) and in my view streams are a good way to increase the popularity of the game, so they make money for WotC and it would be against their best interests to put limits on it. If WotC made an announcement that they are cracking down on this, that would probably have a very negative impact on the community of streamers and their viewers.
I think that it is unethical (or maybe immoral is the right word) to ghost while playing against someone who is streaming. I would lose a lot of respect for someone who did that. However, I would not advocate WotC policing it. If a streamer is concerned about ghosting then they are free to put up a block on the contents of their hand, as some streamers do, or they could implement a delay as many do for important events.
Something extremely similar to this happened in Bakuman. Basically the idea was that a strong player does not want help from a hive mind of average players and it may be advantageous initially once it really matters it can become detrimental.
Part of it is offloading resources. A strong player probably isn't going to do something like have popular vote dictate whether to attack or not, but when the "hive mind" spits out every possibility of play, the strong player doesn't have to generate those themselves. Especially when you are playing a long tournament, it increases your endurance.
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The example they gave is that when they play against Rich Shay or Brassman in the Vintage dailies, they know that they are likely streaming and that they both often get advice from other vintage players in their chat.
Do you think that getting help from chat or having a group of pro players during testing all huddled around one laptop is unethical? It certainly isn't something that can be easily enforced by WotC (and you wouldn't want to go after people who are streaming your game). Is MTGO about pitting one mind against another without outside help?
Can you justify it without also justifying ghosting someone's stream? Certainly ghosting doesn't past the sniff test, but I'm allowed to play a game of Magic with my hand face up, so certainly you could attempt to make an argument that ghosting is just using additional available information in the same way as utilizing chat.
Interested to hear your thoughts. In my opinion, I think that it depends on the event (maybe that isn't rational). I think someone who wins a MOCS or something with outside assistance is doing something wrong, but I don't really care if someone spikes a draft in the same way.
I really don't have an issue with that, though I also don't play the higher level events. Not sure if my viewpoint would change if I was playing more of the high level events. Would like to think it would not change.
What I do have issue with is all this peer pressure the streamers and then their mob mentality audience puts on "ghosting". I understand that the chat can be distracting and also give bad advice, but I have seen it give good advice and prevent a player from making a mistake or help them make the right play. Also many times the person doing the streaming is making money from it in some way. There are subscribers, donations, and they get cards or borrow cards from their audience. To me it is like if someone is playing me and their hand is on the table face up for anybody to see walking by, they have an audience behind them they are pandering to and getting advice from, and they are getting paid money but you are some evil person if you happen to look down at that exposed hand. I guess I give into the peer pressure as I just don't bother to watch the streams the few times I know it has happened because I don't want to deal with the aggravation.
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I am curious what country or countries it is illegal in? Also what is the punishment?
Sorry, when I said MOCS, I was referring to the monthly qualifiers, not the actual tournament.
I'm not entirely sure that the "rules" (as far as the judging protocols at events) apply to MTGO. Things like slow play and stalling don't exist, other things like failure to maintain game state don't make sense, etc. I think that only the things in the MTGO user agreement dictate what you may or may not do.
You are wrong here; the TOS requires, among other, more specific things, that all tournament rules be followed while playing in competitive events.
Now, not every rule can be followed on MODO, but its more just a catch-all to prevent the kind of mentality you mention, that 'since its online the normal rules don't apply.'
There used to be specific wording about outside help being disallowed and that all gameplay decisions must be your own. I assume that one is still in there, too.
edit for relevant literature:
and
Same for outside notes/googling decklists, etc. It is certainly breaking the rules to do stuff onstream like what Kenji, Rich Shay, Conley, etc are doing when asking about lines of play. They could, potentially, be banned for it under the wording of the current rules. Do we want to condone ignoring inconvenient rules, or do we change the rules, or just let it ride and pretend everything's fine?
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Also isn't it a double edged sword as streaming allows for ghosting. Asking for potential lines of play vs your opponent who may actually be watching your every draw? Seems like a very casual trade-off for most basic events imo.
I agree with this.
I watch quite a few streams (limited only) and in my view streams are a good way to increase the popularity of the game, so they make money for WotC and it would be against their best interests to put limits on it. If WotC made an announcement that they are cracking down on this, that would probably have a very negative impact on the community of streamers and their viewers.
I think that it is unethical (or maybe immoral is the right word) to ghost while playing against someone who is streaming. I would lose a lot of respect for someone who did that. However, I would not advocate WotC policing it. If a streamer is concerned about ghosting then they are free to put up a block on the contents of their hand, as some streamers do, or they could implement a delay as many do for important events.
Part of it is offloading resources. A strong player probably isn't going to do something like have popular vote dictate whether to attack or not, but when the "hive mind" spits out every possibility of play, the strong player doesn't have to generate those themselves. Especially when you are playing a long tournament, it increases your endurance.