I've been reading a bit on good shuffling vs bad shuffling and I'm a bit hazy on what is bad shuffling. Specifically the shuffling that "damages cards". I've seen mention of it but no explanation.
What is the bad shuffling people mention here and there?
I've been reading a bit on good shuffling vs bad shuffling and I'm a bit hazy on what is bad shuffling. Specifically the shuffling that "damages cards". I've seen mention of it but no explanation.
What is the bad shuffling people mention here and there?
Typically most people would consider it inappropriate to riffle shuffle your opponent's cards because bridging the cards can eventually damage them.
The "Bridge" isnt needed , its just bogus bull***** that is not necessary. You can totally do that with cheap plastic poker cards, nobody will mind, but doing so with expensive magic cards is very ignorant.
However, what drives me crazy are the people that completly panic if you attempt to shuffle the deck, even if you are as careful and soft as humanly possible ; and if "forced" to not riffle as you are used to (in a completly save manner) results in much worse mash shuffles, and i will mash MORE than i need to riffle, so its an unpleasent situation for everyone (and these people think you are a jerk for mashing more, but its just out of question for me to properly shuffle, if they dont allow me to do that with a reasonable riffle, its not MY fault).
----
At least these people are quite a minority, at least in Limited nobody will really mind.
In constructed, put your expensive cards in double sleeves if you mind protection and tell me BEFORE i start shuffling, its super annoying if they panic and jump in between your shuffle and go totally nuts how you could ever riffle a deck ... its crazy ... even if its rare.
For me its a red flag if someone is trying to prevent me from randomizing their deck, sometimes they are just super scatchy and hyper sensitive , but some really might just try to be the "look how i care for my cards" guy (i mean seriously, if you bring your all foil, all expedition fetchland deck to a standard FNM what the heck are you thinking ... ).
You can riffle terrible, or do it in a proper way.
If you see someone bend the cards like mad and hear a sound of cards during the riffle, its a terrible riffle and its not done right.
You do not need to bend the cards in any meaningful way to riffle them (and double sleeved they are sturdy enough that they wont bend, even with a bit force).
You also dont need to riffle the cards on the entire side, just the corner is enough to push them together after they did fall into each other.
A proper riffle will just be as gentle as any gentle mash shuffle will be, but the result is better randomisation and the cards will allways be face-down on the table the entire time during the shuffle (which is strictly superior to the angle that people have during a mash, which would require them to look away during shuffling, as otherwise they peek at cards, which is a very common cheat, and its easy to avoid if we properly shuffle).
Then theres all the crap bull***** like performing a bridge after a terrible riffle. Completly not needed, dont do it ever, theres no reason for it at all it will just bend cards and do nothing else. Thats NOT part of a riffle shuffle and if someone does so.
The idea to riffle with force and bend the cards in one side and then the other is also ridiculous stupid. You do NOT need to bend the cards at all, so dont do it, theres no reason to.
If you google for riffle shuffle like allmost all of them will be done with poker cards, which are sturdy, plastic, cheap, nobody cares for them. Here the shuffler can do whatever they please, so its a terrible terrible riffle shuffle for trading cards and thats not in the slightest what i understand of a proper riffle (which is a quick, perfect form of shuffling, with absolute no downside, all of it is superior to something like mashing cards together, it will properly randomize the deck, do so completly face-down and not bend any card, no corner will be bend, you can actually look at the cards during that shuffle, as they are allways face-down, all of it is better than mashing).
----
Oh and heres why mash shuffles are really super terrible.
If someone wants to cheat, you put important cards together. Not a complete stacked deck, thats useless, just some cards that are important, like your splash basic land for your splash spell in Limited. Performing a bunch of mash shuffles wont necessarly divide these cards and not divide them from each other in 7+ cards , if you do the "normal" mash cards will stay together a lot, especially if you want to cheat and shuffle in a way that will keep the cards together that you want to keep together (so you can do like 30 of this "bull*****" mashes and the splash mana will still be together with the splash spell, its a stacked tiny part of the deck and it will be a MASSIVE advantage against an opponent, thats cheating and it happens extremly often).
Splinter Twin deck did that cheat and stick the twin to its corresponding creature. Guess what, they draw the combo often, way above average, and guess what, its cheating. And if you dont know about it, you will never see it, never avoid it, and simply be a victim to this cheats.
All these cheats only work if you can bank on your opponent to not properly shuffle your deck, as you didnt properly shuffle your deck anyway. A riffle is a fool proof way to randomize a deck, properly, good, quickly (do 10 riffle and any deck, no matter how its stacked will be random).
Then i will tell my opponent "please dont riffle" , so they mash my deck like 5-6 times and give it back. Voila my cheat is a success, the splash cards are still together and i cheat my way to the finals.
THATS why i am highly suspicious to people that do that *****. You have to have a real reason why you dont want me to properly shuffle your deck.
I understand if they are hyper sensitive , but by all means, protect your expensive cards, sleeve them, sleeve them in really solid protective sleeves. Tell your opponent to not BEND the cards, and all is fine. It doesnt matter if they riffle, if its properly done. No matter how they shuffle, if they shuffle bad it will damage your cards many times more than if they use a method they are experienced in and that actually respects the cards.
----
In short order, as a judge i take a real look at the players that do not want the opponent to riffle shuffle, and guess what, a lot of them (not all) , are in fact cheating, and so i ask them why they dont want the opponent to shuffle their deck, and ofcourse its a fear that cards will be damaged, but if they perform shady ***** during sideboarding and dont properly shuffle the deck, you might have a word with them (and here the bad part is that most judges simply dont have any knowledge about cheating during shuffling, its not part of any judge test and the rules are way too wishy-washy in this regard, and in the end you cannot really "force" players to riffle, nor can you force them to be educated how to properly shuffle, but to some degree, its a real issue in paper magic, and the only feasable way is to educate people, show them good and proper shuffling and make sure they have a healthy respect for the cards of other players, then everything should be fine).
I use my phablet to browse the site at work alot during downtime and was having issues accessing the desktop version of this site (and the site search function).
I pulled up about half a dozen Youtube videos specific for sleeved MTG cards and a few for cards in general,agic tricks and casino. Not seeing what the least damaging riffle sbuffle looks like. Every one of the riffles make a bunch of noise and bridge them.
That faro shuffle... I never knew that's what it was called. People allow that in tournaments?! That's a classic magic (not the gathering) trick.:gaping:
Bad shuffling is either shuffling that damages the cards, takes too much time, or results in a deck that isn't properly randomized. For damages specifically, the two main culprits are bending the cards such that they get creases, or nicking the edges of cards. Bending is mostly caused by riffle shuffling carelessly. Nicking the edges is usually caused by shuffling cards without sleeves, or with sleeved cards if you're being really rough.
Riffle shuffles can be done carefully, but they can also be done in a way that damages the cards. Bending the cards near the middle far enough to interweave them nearly halfway into each other, the way many people riffle a poker deck, can damage magic cards. But if you're riffling a sleeved deck you don't really need to interweave with a large overlap, a few millimeters of interweaving is enough. Since you need less interweaving you can, instead of bending the cards down the middle, angle the two halves of the deck, and put mild pressure on the card back near the edge you want to interweave. This avoids the typical shuffle creases that magic cards get from repeated riffling at full bend.
With sleeved cards you never need to bridge after a riffle, just push the two interweaved halves of your deck together, any decent sleeve will slide smoothly enough to do this.
Mash shuffling is good for sleeved decks, but almost impossible to do without nicking unsleeved card edges. Hence I usually mash sleeved decks and combine riffling and overhand shuffles for unsleeved decks. (Overhand shuffles alone is WAY too slow, it takes in the order of thousands of overhand shuffles to randomize 60 cards.)
Mash shuffling is good for sleeved decks, but almost impossible to do without nicking unsleeved card edges. Hence I usually mash sleeved decks and combine riffling and overhand shuffles for unsleeved decks. (Overhand shuffles alone is WAY too slow, it takes in the order of thousands of overhand shuffles to randomize 60 cards.)
Is that even a thing anymore with double sleeving? Or is double sleeving only done by a niche group suffering from OCD-like mentality?
Mash shuffling is good for sleeved decks, but almost impossible to do without nicking unsleeved card edges. Hence I usually mash sleeved decks and combine riffling and overhand shuffles for unsleeved decks. (Overhand shuffles alone is WAY too slow, it takes in the order of thousands of overhand shuffles to randomize 60 cards.)
Is that even a thing anymore with double sleeving? Or is double sleeving only done by a niche group suffering from OCD-like mentality?
I would argue any deck worth 50$+ is a good fit to double sleeve your cards in, and thats pretty much any deck outside of Limited (and even in Limited you can open stuff like an Expedition you dont want to play in normal sleeves).
Double Sleeving has the big advantage that the card is protected against fluids of any kind and cards without double sleeves will collect dust in the upper slip.
If you double sleeve a deck it will even "survive" an attack of a drink spilled all over it. Without double sleeves, cards will be heavily damaged.
Proper sturdy sleeves will further protect the cards from "bending".
And they are cheap in comparision to the protection they provide.
If you get used to it, you will put ANY card that is worth more than its booster directly in a perfect fit, as that will guarantee the card keeps it value and isnt damaged in the slightest.
Is that even a thing anymore with double sleeving? Or is double sleeving only done by a niche group suffering from OCD-like mentality?
I play limited a lot more often than I play constructed, and draft decks are frequently unsleeved. I usually sleeve my own draft decks, but I still have to shuffle my opponents' decks when they present it for the cut.
For constructed you're completely right, almost all decks are sleeved and many are double sleeved. There's nothing OCD-like about that, it's just prudent.
Tried the corner (Casino) style of riffling the double sleeved cards and I wasn't quite able to do it. I use BCW inner sleeves with Ultra-Pro outer. They're fresh sleeves and have been sitting tight in a box for about two weeks so they're not sticky and airless.
Is there a video of someone corner riffling double sleeved cards? All I can find are the mash and bridge varieties for sleeved cards or corner shuffling with casino cars.
I disagree. After switching to double sleeves, shuffling with single sleeved cards feels super weird and flimsy. I play Modern and when someone hands me their single sleeved Jund deck I want to go buy them perfect fits right there,
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What is the bad shuffling people mention here and there?
So i link you here:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334934-shuffling-the-truth-and-maths-primer
It should answer pretty much all your questions.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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The "Bridge" isnt needed , its just bogus bull***** that is not necessary. You can totally do that with cheap plastic poker cards, nobody will mind, but doing so with expensive magic cards is very ignorant.
However, what drives me crazy are the people that completly panic if you attempt to shuffle the deck, even if you are as careful and soft as humanly possible ; and if "forced" to not riffle as you are used to (in a completly save manner) results in much worse mash shuffles, and i will mash MORE than i need to riffle, so its an unpleasent situation for everyone (and these people think you are a jerk for mashing more, but its just out of question for me to properly shuffle, if they dont allow me to do that with a reasonable riffle, its not MY fault).
----
At least these people are quite a minority, at least in Limited nobody will really mind.
In constructed, put your expensive cards in double sleeves if you mind protection and tell me BEFORE i start shuffling, its super annoying if they panic and jump in between your shuffle and go totally nuts how you could ever riffle a deck ... its crazy ... even if its rare.
For me its a red flag if someone is trying to prevent me from randomizing their deck, sometimes they are just super scatchy and hyper sensitive , but some really might just try to be the "look how i care for my cards" guy (i mean seriously, if you bring your all foil, all expedition fetchland deck to a standard FNM what the heck are you thinking ... ).
----
But thats just my personal rant.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
If you see someone bend the cards like mad and hear a sound of cards during the riffle, its a terrible riffle and its not done right.
You do not need to bend the cards in any meaningful way to riffle them (and double sleeved they are sturdy enough that they wont bend, even with a bit force).
You also dont need to riffle the cards on the entire side, just the corner is enough to push them together after they did fall into each other.
A proper riffle will just be as gentle as any gentle mash shuffle will be, but the result is better randomisation and the cards will allways be face-down on the table the entire time during the shuffle (which is strictly superior to the angle that people have during a mash, which would require them to look away during shuffling, as otherwise they peek at cards, which is a very common cheat, and its easy to avoid if we properly shuffle).
Then theres all the crap bull***** like performing a bridge after a terrible riffle. Completly not needed, dont do it ever, theres no reason for it at all it will just bend cards and do nothing else. Thats NOT part of a riffle shuffle and if someone does so.
The idea to riffle with force and bend the cards in one side and then the other is also ridiculous stupid. You do NOT need to bend the cards at all, so dont do it, theres no reason to.
If you google for riffle shuffle like allmost all of them will be done with poker cards, which are sturdy, plastic, cheap, nobody cares for them. Here the shuffler can do whatever they please, so its a terrible terrible riffle shuffle for trading cards and thats not in the slightest what i understand of a proper riffle (which is a quick, perfect form of shuffling, with absolute no downside, all of it is superior to something like mashing cards together, it will properly randomize the deck, do so completly face-down and not bend any card, no corner will be bend, you can actually look at the cards during that shuffle, as they are allways face-down, all of it is better than mashing).
----
Oh and heres why mash shuffles are really super terrible.
If someone wants to cheat, you put important cards together. Not a complete stacked deck, thats useless, just some cards that are important, like your splash basic land for your splash spell in Limited. Performing a bunch of mash shuffles wont necessarly divide these cards and not divide them from each other in 7+ cards , if you do the "normal" mash cards will stay together a lot, especially if you want to cheat and shuffle in a way that will keep the cards together that you want to keep together (so you can do like 30 of this "bull*****" mashes and the splash mana will still be together with the splash spell, its a stacked tiny part of the deck and it will be a MASSIVE advantage against an opponent, thats cheating and it happens extremly often).
Splinter Twin deck did that cheat and stick the twin to its corresponding creature. Guess what, they draw the combo often, way above average, and guess what, its cheating. And if you dont know about it, you will never see it, never avoid it, and simply be a victim to this cheats.
All these cheats only work if you can bank on your opponent to not properly shuffle your deck, as you didnt properly shuffle your deck anyway. A riffle is a fool proof way to randomize a deck, properly, good, quickly (do 10 riffle and any deck, no matter how its stacked will be random).
Then i will tell my opponent "please dont riffle" , so they mash my deck like 5-6 times and give it back. Voila my cheat is a success, the splash cards are still together and i cheat my way to the finals.
THATS why i am highly suspicious to people that do that *****. You have to have a real reason why you dont want me to properly shuffle your deck.
I understand if they are hyper sensitive , but by all means, protect your expensive cards, sleeve them, sleeve them in really solid protective sleeves. Tell your opponent to not BEND the cards, and all is fine. It doesnt matter if they riffle, if its properly done. No matter how they shuffle, if they shuffle bad it will damage your cards many times more than if they use a method they are experienced in and that actually respects the cards.
----
In short order, as a judge i take a real look at the players that do not want the opponent to riffle shuffle, and guess what, a lot of them (not all) , are in fact cheating, and so i ask them why they dont want the opponent to shuffle their deck, and ofcourse its a fear that cards will be damaged, but if they perform shady ***** during sideboarding and dont properly shuffle the deck, you might have a word with them (and here the bad part is that most judges simply dont have any knowledge about cheating during shuffling, its not part of any judge test and the rules are way too wishy-washy in this regard, and in the end you cannot really "force" players to riffle, nor can you force them to be educated how to properly shuffle, but to some degree, its a real issue in paper magic, and the only feasable way is to educate people, show them good and proper shuffling and make sure they have a healthy respect for the cards of other players, then everything should be fine).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
I use my phablet to browse the site at work alot during downtime and was having issues accessing the desktop version of this site (and the site search function).
I pulled up about half a dozen Youtube videos specific for sleeved MTG cards and a few for cards in general,agic tricks and casino. Not seeing what the least damaging riffle sbuffle looks like. Every one of the riffles make a bunch of noise and bridge them.
That faro shuffle... I never knew that's what it was called. People allow that in tournaments?! That's a classic magic (not the gathering) trick.:gaping:
Riffle shuffles can be done carefully, but they can also be done in a way that damages the cards. Bending the cards near the middle far enough to interweave them nearly halfway into each other, the way many people riffle a poker deck, can damage magic cards. But if you're riffling a sleeved deck you don't really need to interweave with a large overlap, a few millimeters of interweaving is enough. Since you need less interweaving you can, instead of bending the cards down the middle, angle the two halves of the deck, and put mild pressure on the card back near the edge you want to interweave. This avoids the typical shuffle creases that magic cards get from repeated riffling at full bend.
With sleeved cards you never need to bridge after a riffle, just push the two interweaved halves of your deck together, any decent sleeve will slide smoothly enough to do this.
Mash shuffling is good for sleeved decks, but almost impossible to do without nicking unsleeved card edges. Hence I usually mash sleeved decks and combine riffling and overhand shuffles for unsleeved decks. (Overhand shuffles alone is WAY too slow, it takes in the order of thousands of overhand shuffles to randomize 60 cards.)
Is that even a thing anymore with double sleeving? Or is double sleeving only done by a niche group suffering from OCD-like mentality?
I would argue any deck worth 50$+ is a good fit to double sleeve your cards in, and thats pretty much any deck outside of Limited (and even in Limited you can open stuff like an Expedition you dont want to play in normal sleeves).
Double Sleeving has the big advantage that the card is protected against fluids of any kind and cards without double sleeves will collect dust in the upper slip.
If you double sleeve a deck it will even "survive" an attack of a drink spilled all over it. Without double sleeves, cards will be heavily damaged.
Proper sturdy sleeves will further protect the cards from "bending".
And they are cheap in comparision to the protection they provide.
If you get used to it, you will put ANY card that is worth more than its booster directly in a perfect fit, as that will guarantee the card keeps it value and isnt damaged in the slightest.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
I play limited a lot more often than I play constructed, and draft decks are frequently unsleeved. I usually sleeve my own draft decks, but I still have to shuffle my opponents' decks when they present it for the cut.
For constructed you're completely right, almost all decks are sleeved and many are double sleeved. There's nothing OCD-like about that, it's just prudent.
Is there a video of someone corner riffling double sleeved cards? All I can find are the mash and bridge varieties for sleeved cards or corner shuffling with casino cars.
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BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G