You can play casually with your friends at your house or a local game store or whatever. I do so every Saturday myself playing Commander. However, I did want to jump into Legacy so I traded cards and whatnot to get a deck built.
If Wizards doesn't get money then the stores stop hosting events and we have less ways to get new cards, we have to turn toward larger stores and shrink the playing field. No individuals are barred from participating, with whichever decks they want, but there is a certain bar to reach to progress.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
You can play casually with your friends at your house or a local game store or whatever. I do so every Saturday myself playing Commander. However, I did want to jump into Legacy so I traded cards and whatnot to get a deck built.
If Wizards doesn't get money then the stores stop hosting events and we have less ways to get new cards, we have to turn toward larger stores and shrink the playing field. No individuals are barred from participating, with whichever decks they want, but there is a certain bar to reach to progress.
What is the profit of the parent company that owns magic? Do you think it is too much or just enough to equal the amount that the fans spend on it?
Do the cost of the cards make the game as fair as it can be?
Of course not, the game is made to make money for the parent company.
I love this game but it has a very corrupt business model.
It can make just as much money when allowing more people fair play.
I am glad that these two purposes often coincide. Would I like to have more cards? Sure! Would I love to have a foil Force of Will? Sure! (Especially with that sweet, sweet EMA art...) Would I like to have a million dollars? Sure!
But no one owes me a million dollars, just like no one owes me a Force of Will (or whatever card).
Fair? What's fair or not fair about something that is completely voluntary? Is it not "fair" that I cannot competitively golf because I cannot afford the clubs? So?
Time limits allow tournaments to finish in a sane time frame. 3-4 hours is enough time to spend on a 4 round FNM, and I don't want to wait around longer just so some slow guy can take his sweet time.
Also, just because Wizards are out to make money doesn't make them corrupt. They're not a nonprofit organization and have no illusions about being one. Making a profit is part of the reality of being a part of a large company.
Admittedly, one of the reasons I stopped playing magic was that I couldn't keep up with the new consistent releases that WotC started doing sometime around Mirage(?). Prior to this, releases were farther apart so I had time to buy my collections and enjoy the cards. When I hit the college scene, then other things, like rent and tuition, started competing for my dollars and I had to make a choice. I full on quit a couple of sets later. It wasn't the primary reason, but it certainly was a factor.
I'm much older now and I don't have this "stick it to the man" kind of mentality. I have a better understanding of the economics involved and why companies do what they do. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand.
If there's a take away from this is that WotC always needs an incentive to stay in business and that incentive is money. Is it evil? I suppose.
But like I tell people who expect free software, developers have to eat too. If there isn't enough money flowing in, there's no incentive to continue. Stock will fall. Investors would pull out. People get fired.
To look at it another way. Can you name to six top TCG/CCGs 15 years ago that isn't MtG that's still published? Pokemon ...Yu-Gi-Oh!... anything else? Where did they go? What happened to Wheel of Time? Star Wars? Middle Earth? That wrestling game? Lots of dead games over the years.
Can you name to six top TCG/CCGs 15 years ago that isn't MtG that's still published? Pokemon ...Yu-Gi-Oh!... anything else? Where did they go? What happened to Wheel of Time? Star Wars? Middle Earth? That wrestling game? Lots of dead games over the years.
Top TCGs (other than MtG) as of 2015: Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Marvel Dice Masters, Force of Will, My Little Pony, Legend of the Five Rings, Cardfight! Vanguard, Weiss Schwarz, Future Card Buddyfight.
I was actually a little sad when the MLP game introduced mono-color Problems. My mono-Kindness deck was pretty hilarious before that, completely ignoring my own Problem deck and dropping nasty Troublemakers on it, forcing my opponent to duke it out with me on his Problem deck. Then I swarmed him with Critter Friends. Now anyone can make a mono-color deck work without much thought.
Can you name to six top TCG/CCGs 15 years ago that isn't MtG that's still published? Pokemon ...Yu-Gi-Oh!... anything else? Where did they go? What happened to Wheel of Time? Star Wars? Middle Earth? That wrestling game? Lots of dead games over the years.
Top TCGs (other than MtG) as of 2015: Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Marvel Dice Masters, Force of Will, My Little Pony, Legend of the Five Rings, Cardfight! Vanguard, Weiss Schwarz, Future Card Buddyfight.
I was actually a little sad when the MLP game introduced mono-color Problems. My mono-Kindness deck was pretty hilarious before that, completely ignoring my own Problem deck and dropping nasty Troublemakers on it, forcing my opponent to duke it out with me on his Problem deck. Then I swarmed him with Critter Friends. Now anyone can make a mono-color deck work without much thought.
So completely ignoring the 15 years ago in favor of the incredibly easy 2015, one year ago? Did you read any part other than "Can you name to six top TCG/CCGs 15..." Yes there are other tcgs now, will they live another 10 years? Who knows. Are they trying to make a profit? Heck yes, so I can't really see your point. Especially with that quote attached.
Can you name to six top TCG/CCGs 15 years ago that isn't MtG that's still published? Pokemon ...Yu-Gi-Oh!... anything else? Where did they go? What happened to Wheel of Time? Star Wars? Middle Earth? That wrestling game? Lots of dead games over the years.
Top TCGs (other than MtG) as of 2015: Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Marvel Dice Masters, Force of Will, My Little Pony, Legend of the Five Rings, Cardfight! Vanguard, Weiss Schwarz, Future Card Buddyfight.
I was actually a little sad when the MLP game introduced mono-color Problems. My mono-Kindness deck was pretty hilarious before that, completely ignoring my own Problem deck and dropping nasty Troublemakers on it, forcing my opponent to duke it out with me on his Problem deck. Then I swarmed him with Critter Friends. Now anyone can make a mono-color deck work without much thought.
So completely ignoring the 15 years ago in favor of the incredibly easy 2015, one year ago? Did you read any part other than "Can you name to six top TCG/CCGs 15..." Yes there are other tcgs now, will they live another 10 years? Who knows. Are they trying to make a profit? Heck yes, so I can't really see your point. Especially with that quote attached.
Not ignoring it, simply missing it. I would say you're being disingenuous with your arbitrary 15-year requirement, and limiting the scope to games that are at least 15 years old means there's only 8 calendar years of potential TCGs to consider, but whatever.
That said, Legend of the Five Rings (1995), Yuugiou (1998), and Pokemon (1999) which I listed do both meet your 15-year criteria. (And yes, I realize you also listed Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon.) Interestingly, if you only count the English version of the game (and believe me, the English version had significant differences in the early days), Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't meet your 15-year criteria.
Other TCG/CCGs that are still alive today and were first released in 2001 or earlier:
Shadowfist was first released in 1995, and has had Kickstarter-funded releases for the past three years.
Redemption has run since 1995.
Raw Deal was published by Comic Images from 2000 to 2007, and published online by players (with tournaments run by the community) from 2008 to today.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer CCG similarly was produced from 2001 to 2004 by Score Entertainment, and produced and managed by fans from 2006 to today.
There you go. Six TCGs other than MtG still played today which are 15 years old or more. Pokemon, L5R, Shadowfist, Redemption, Raw Deal, and Buffy. Plus the Japanese version of Yu-Gi-Oh.
@Lithl, it's interesting you count games that continue to be popular solely on the basis of their fan made expansion (continuation, whatever). My point is a lot of games just cease to be produced by their owners. It doesn't matter when even. A game of recent vintage like MLP is a great example. Every store I go to is clearing out their MLP merchandise from 50%-65% off. Is the interest there? I have no idea, doesn't look like it. However, if the money doesn't keep flowing in, Hasbro/Enterplay will pull the plug. Period. Fans can continue making cards as they do with Star Wars but, in the end, so what? The first C in CCG becomes meaningless.
@Magicman657, because I can and I do. Bugatti can just cut the price of their cars in half and they would sell even more and make a killing on profit, right? I understand why Bugatti doesn't, I don't necessarily agree with it. It is the same here. I understand why WotC does what they do. I don't necessarily agree with it.
My opinion? I absolutely would love to get my hands on a full playset of Power Nine and Duals. Do I expect that to happen anytime soon? No. In the next twenty years? Not in the way that would make all the interested parties happy, I'm sure.
WotC is going to piss off somebody, no matter what they do. The trick is to minimize the number of pissed off people as much as possible.
The solution presented by the OP could go any number of ways, most of what I can think of aren't good. As someone who lacks the full set of Duals, I would be delighted to have a chance at a proper set of duals. As someone who owned their Duals since year dot, I might be a little peeved to see the value of my Duals cut in half, I might not, I would still be ahead. As someone who shelled out $2000 some odd for a Beta Tundra, I would be furious to see the price drop. Then there's the money sunk into the program by WotC would make their share holders annoyed. The U.S. culture tends to like gains, not losses, even if those losses translate into long term gains. Those cards returning to circulation as bonus cards in packs would be hit or miss. Or WotC destroying cards... the collectors would scream.
@Lithl, it's interesting you count games that continue to be popular solely on the basis of their fan made expansion (continuation, whatever). My point is a lot of games just cease to be produced by their owners. It doesn't matter when even. A game of recent vintage like MLP is a great example. Every store I go to is clearing out their MLP merchandise from 50%-65% off. Is the interest there? I have no idea, doesn't look like it. However, if the money doesn't keep flowing in, Hasbro/Enterplay will pull the plug. Period. Fans can continue making cards as they do with Star Wars but, in the end, so what? The first C in CCG becomes meaningless.
Well, if it's popular enough for the fans to keep making it after the parent company gives up, I'd say it's pretty popular.
Well, if it's popular enough for the fans to keep making it after the parent company gives up, I'd say it's pretty popular.
Eh, not necessarily. There's a fan group that's keeping the Star Trek CCG going, but it's just a small group of people that play it. 22 years going, so it has longevity, but it isn't in any way popular.
I'm much older now and I don't have this "stick it to the man" kind of mentality. I have a better understanding of the economics involved and why companies do what they do. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand.
How can you continue to have an argument when you've already admitted you don't even agree with it yourself? I also understand *why* WotC does what they do. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with their practices, especially if those practices are to their own detriment. I am actually of the opinion that they'd make even MORE money over the long term by meeting the reprint demands of their players at least halfway between where they are now / where people want them to be. That's what would happen in any other industry - supply would be increased so that it meets equilibrium with demand at the most profitable point. I sincerely doubt that WotC is anywhere near this point though, mostly because they are afraid of a vocal minority of people who don't want to see any cards decrease in value whatsoever.
Wizards can make money and appease players at the same time. These are not mutually exclusive ideas, and it irritates me to no end when people try to imply that they are.
I've bolded two parts that I disagree with.
#1 - Supply is certainly not increased to where it meets equilibrium. Many luxury good industries specifically restrict their goods to inflate pricing. The diamond industry is a classic example of this. High end sports cards (Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, etc) is another. Like it or not, Magic is a luxury good.
#2 - You continue to say that there is a vocal minority of people who do not want prices to decrease. Instead I suggest we say collectors. Players generally wouldn't care if pricing decreased, but collectors would.. correct? Can you show me a breakdown of what percentage of people who buy magic cards that are collectors and invested heavily that way? I certainly can't find any statistics on it. However, Wizards certainly must have more than we do and it is driving their behavior. On this point we are going to have to continue to agree to disagree
To build on above's #2 regarding collectors, at its heart, Magic and it's creators have always wanted it to be a collectable. It also happens to be a fun game, but they do like to keep collectors in mind. It has to be a difficult balance, keeping supply and collectors and players all happy, but one they have sustained for quite some time.
For further reference, see how Wizards like to explain their reasoning behind their reserved list, and it is purely to protect collectors. Greed could allow the to reprint from the reserved list, however their promise to collectors and aim to be a sustainable brand for years to come trumps their need to quick reprints and cash for their own pockets--or so it seems to me.
I think its funny (from I could originally tell) how the guy with the "My deck is 127 cards" thread is complaining about time limits, and that turning into an economic discussion. I think he is also blaming the entire secondary market on Wizards.
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The problem is that greed has taken precedence.
To participate in a tournament I should not be limited to a time-limit of obsoletion.
After disregarding the alpha and beta of the game, we should allow all kinds into the highest level of play.
If we do not do this we only add to the greed of the creators and take away from the most loyal players.
If Wizards doesn't get money then the stores stop hosting events and we have less ways to get new cards, we have to turn toward larger stores and shrink the playing field. No individuals are barred from participating, with whichever decks they want, but there is a certain bar to reach to progress.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
What is the profit of the parent company that owns magic? Do you think it is too much or just enough to equal the amount that the fans spend on it?
Do the cost of the cards make the game as fair as it can be?
Of course not, the game is made to make money for the parent company.
I love this game but it has a very corrupt business model.
It can make just as much money when allowing more people fair play.
For Wizards, it's to continue making money.
I am glad that these two purposes often coincide. Would I like to have more cards? Sure! Would I love to have a foil Force of Will? Sure! (Especially with that sweet, sweet EMA art...) Would I like to have a million dollars? Sure!
But no one owes me a million dollars, just like no one owes me a Force of Will (or whatever card).
Fair? What's fair or not fair about something that is completely voluntary? Is it not "fair" that I cannot competitively golf because I cannot afford the clubs? So?
Are you saying that 50 minutes is too short for a match?
Or that Standard exists solely to make money?
Neither is true, but I'm curious as to what you mean.
sometimes I'll enjoy sitting down to enjoy the story/worlds
Also, just because Wizards are out to make money doesn't make them corrupt. They're not a nonprofit organization and have no illusions about being one. Making a profit is part of the reality of being a part of a large company.
I'm much older now and I don't have this "stick it to the man" kind of mentality. I have a better understanding of the economics involved and why companies do what they do. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand.
If there's a take away from this is that WotC always needs an incentive to stay in business and that incentive is money. Is it evil? I suppose.
But like I tell people who expect free software, developers have to eat too. If there isn't enough money flowing in, there's no incentive to continue. Stock will fall. Investors would pull out. People get fired.
To look at it another way. Can you name to six top TCG/CCGs 15 years ago that isn't MtG that's still published? Pokemon ...Yu-Gi-Oh!... anything else? Where did they go? What happened to Wheel of Time? Star Wars? Middle Earth? That wrestling game? Lots of dead games over the years.
I was actually a little sad when the MLP game introduced mono-color Problems. My mono-Kindness deck was pretty hilarious before that, completely ignoring my own Problem deck and dropping nasty Troublemakers on it, forcing my opponent to duke it out with me on his Problem deck. Then I swarmed him with Critter Friends. Now anyone can make a mono-color deck work without much thought.
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That said, Legend of the Five Rings (1995), Yuugiou (1998), and Pokemon (1999) which I listed do both meet your 15-year criteria. (And yes, I realize you also listed Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon.) Interestingly, if you only count the English version of the game (and believe me, the English version had significant differences in the early days), Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't meet your 15-year criteria.
Other TCG/CCGs that are still alive today and were first released in 2001 or earlier:
Shadowfist was first released in 1995, and has had Kickstarter-funded releases for the past three years.
Redemption has run since 1995.
Raw Deal was published by Comic Images from 2000 to 2007, and published online by players (with tournaments run by the community) from 2008 to today.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer CCG similarly was produced from 2001 to 2004 by Score Entertainment, and produced and managed by fans from 2006 to today.
There you go. Six TCGs other than MtG still played today which are 15 years old or more. Pokemon, L5R, Shadowfist, Redemption, Raw Deal, and Buffy. Plus the Japanese version of Yu-Gi-Oh.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
@Magicman657, because I can and I do. Bugatti can just cut the price of their cars in half and they would sell even more and make a killing on profit, right? I understand why Bugatti doesn't, I don't necessarily agree with it. It is the same here. I understand why WotC does what they do. I don't necessarily agree with it.
My opinion? I absolutely would love to get my hands on a full playset of Power Nine and Duals. Do I expect that to happen anytime soon? No. In the next twenty years? Not in the way that would make all the interested parties happy, I'm sure.
WotC is going to piss off somebody, no matter what they do. The trick is to minimize the number of pissed off people as much as possible.
The solution presented by the OP could go any number of ways, most of what I can think of aren't good. As someone who lacks the full set of Duals, I would be delighted to have a chance at a proper set of duals. As someone who owned their Duals since year dot, I might be a little peeved to see the value of my Duals cut in half, I might not, I would still be ahead. As someone who shelled out $2000 some odd for a Beta Tundra, I would be furious to see the price drop. Then there's the money sunk into the program by WotC would make their share holders annoyed. The U.S. culture tends to like gains, not losses, even if those losses translate into long term gains. Those cards returning to circulation as bonus cards in packs would be hit or miss. Or WotC destroying cards... the collectors would scream.
Well, if it's popular enough for the fans to keep making it after the parent company gives up, I'd say it's pretty popular.
Eh, not necessarily. There's a fan group that's keeping the Star Trek CCG going, but it's just a small group of people that play it. 22 years going, so it has longevity, but it isn't in any way popular.
I've bolded two parts that I disagree with.
#1 - Supply is certainly not increased to where it meets equilibrium. Many luxury good industries specifically restrict their goods to inflate pricing. The diamond industry is a classic example of this. High end sports cards (Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, etc) is another. Like it or not, Magic is a luxury good.
#2 - You continue to say that there is a vocal minority of people who do not want prices to decrease. Instead I suggest we say collectors. Players generally wouldn't care if pricing decreased, but collectors would.. correct? Can you show me a breakdown of what percentage of people who buy magic cards that are collectors and invested heavily that way? I certainly can't find any statistics on it. However, Wizards certainly must have more than we do and it is driving their behavior. On this point we are going to have to continue to agree to disagree
For further reference, see how Wizards like to explain their reasoning behind their reserved list, and it is purely to protect collectors. Greed could allow the to reprint from the reserved list, however their promise to collectors and aim to be a sustainable brand for years to come trumps their need to quick reprints and cash for their own pockets--or so it seems to me.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G