I can see where you would think this but actually he was trying to come to the rational agreement that A) A draw there is unacceptable and that the Japanese player had used all of his answers to Dragonlord Dromoka (they were teammates playing the exact same 75 so Mengucci knew all the cards in the deck).
This may be getting off topic, but why exactly was a draw unacceptable? That was the outcome of the match.
He successfully convinced him that yes he would be the winner through a natural conclusion and I assure you the Japanese player wouldn't have felt bullied at all. Scooping your teammate in this type of situation is normal.
The natural conclusion was a draw. Mori losing wasn't the natural conclusion - it's because he decided to concede.
People arguing that "Well, without time of course Mori would've lost." are arguing to literally ignore a rule of the game. Time limits are a thing. Play within them.
Yes!! 100 times this. The rules are the rules. They don't state "if a player would have won, then that player wins the match". They state that after 5 turns, it;s a tie. I get that a concession so your team-mate makes top 8 is legal, but that has to originate form the loosing player, not the player who seeks to win. And if you request a concession, it has to be respectful and calm (Mengucci's request was way over the top in my opinion), I know it's not the same, but some time ago I was playing for win-and-in at a large local tournament. I was playing UW control, my opponent pases the last turn with no board (except for lands), 0 cards in hand, and I had 9 Elspeth tokens and a lethal attack literally next turn. It wasn't an "eventually I win" issue. It was literally an "I win as soon as I untap" situation. I told him this calmly "if i could get a turn 6, I utlimate elspeth, swing with the team, and win the match. Would you consider conceding?" He said "you should have thought about time before picking up a control dec, and taking so much time to think in some turns". Sure, he was salty because he was a one of those "I hate control and everyone who plays control" players (he said so as soon as he realized what i was playing), but his argument has logic. When you play a grindy deck (and CoCo can be very grindy), you have to be aware that itme constraints are real, and they matter.
Person wasn't your teammate. You and your friends wouldn't discuss who is favored what when it comes down to winning at least $10,000. I also bet person who conceded probably got a cut of that money. You're comparing some random person who has an issue with the deck you're playing not scooping to you to someone asking for a concession in a very rushed manner from someone he probably just spent the last two weeks living with and jamming games and discussing theory. This has nothing to do with what deck someone plays and just the need to get a quick, no collusion, not coerced answer from a friend.
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I can see where you would think this but actually he was trying to come to the rational agreement that A) A draw there is unacceptable and that the Japanese player had used all of his answers to Dragonlord Dromoka (they were teammates playing the exact same 75 so Mengucci knew all the cards in the deck).
This may be getting off topic, but why exactly was a draw unacceptable? That was the outcome of the match.
He successfully convinced him that yes he would be the winner through a natural conclusion and I assure you the Japanese player wouldn't have felt bullied at all. Scooping your teammate in this type of situation is normal.
The natural conclusion was a draw. Mori losing wasn't the natural conclusion - it's because he decided to concede.
People arguing that "Well, without time of course Mori would've lost." are arguing to literally ignore a rule of the game. Time limits are a thing. Play within them.
Yes!! 100 times this. The rules are the rules. They don't state "if a player would have won, then that player wins the match". They state that after 5 turns, it;s a tie. I get that a concession so your team-mate makes top 8 is legal, but that has to originate form the loosing player, not the player who seeks to win. And if you request a concession, it has to be respectful and calm (Mengucci's request was way over the top in my opinion), I know it's not the same, but some time ago I was playing for win-and-in at a large local tournament. I was playing UW control, my opponent pases the last turn with no board (except for lands), 0 cards in hand, and I had 9 Elspeth tokens and a lethal attack literally next turn. It wasn't an "eventually I win" issue. It was literally an "I win as soon as I untap" situation. I told him this calmly "if i could get a turn 6, I utlimate elspeth, swing with the team, and win the match. Would you consider conceding?" He said "you should have thought about time before picking up a control dec, and taking so much time to think in some turns". Sure, he was salty because he was a one of those "I hate control and everyone who plays control" players (he said so as soon as he realized what i was playing), but his argument has logic. When you play a grindy deck (and CoCo can be very grindy), you have to be aware that itme constraints are real, and they matter.
Person wasn't your teammate. You and your friends wouldn't discuss who is favored what when it comes down to winning at least $10,000. I also bet person who conceded probably got a cut of that money. You're comparing some random person who has an issue with the deck you're playing not scooping to you to someone asking for a concession in a very rushed manner from someone he probably just spent the last two weeks living with and jamming games and discussing theory. This has nothing to do with what deck someone plays and just the need to get a quick, no collusion, not coerced answer from a friend.
1) That the person is a teammate is irrelevant. If you believe AM did not bully Mori into concession, ten being teammates is not an issue. If you believe he DID bully Mori into concession, then being teammates is no excuse. Either way being teammates is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether AM bullied, or not, Mori into a concession. In my personal opinion, he was borderline. Maybe bully is too strong a word, but he was very adamant and insintant.
1.b) To avoid these "borderline" situations, I suggested to have a sistem where either (a) requesting a concession is not allowed or (b) have strict and objective guidelines about when yiu can request a concession, such as "there is 100% probability you win next turn". That was the point I wanted to transmit with my story.
1.c)I already said in my post that it was not the same situation. My story was an illustration of a situation where it is clear and objective who wins. And outside of those situations, concessions should not be requested (only offered by the losing player)
2) Giving Mori a cut would be against the rules.
3) no-one should villify MOri if he decided not to concede, because the rules are the rules. But I saw many pple (here and in other forums) sayig that if Mori did not concede, he'd be "wrong" in some sense. I disagree with that opinion.
This may be getting off topic, but why exactly was a draw unacceptable? That was the outcome of the match.
Because the best outcome for their team (which usually involves prize splits agreed upon before the tournament) was for one to win and one to lose. That would potentially put one of them in the top 8 which would involve a better shot at prizes. It also opened up the possibility for the prestige of their team winning the whole tournament, which very nearly happened.
The argument from both sides wasn't that one should concede to the other, it was who should concede. Mori argued he was in a better position at that moment while Menguci argued he had a bomb in hand (that Mori didn't even bring in from the sideboard) and that Mori was out of answers to it, so he would almost certainly win the game. Mori was also looking at the possibility of a HoF induction with a top 8 here, and from a prestige standpoint that's way better than just getting Menguci into the top 8.
Regarding appearance fees, is this something that other games do? MLG?
Many esports don't have appearance fees but they do pay pro's to associate with the game. For example Riot makes rather generous payments to each professional team (I've read 230k but I'm not sure on the exact figures). That's in addition to the teams corporate sponsorships, their streaming revenue, and their (much) higher tournament prizes.
Appearance fees are the minimum WotC can be doing in this regard, considering they've completely botched Magic streaming, have little sponsorship opportunity, and the tournament winnings side of things are a joke. Most pro's already get by through writing articles, not through winning. Winning tournaments is basically a cost of doing business, if you're lucky you'll break even on attending them, but doing well at them is basically good for your resume when landing a writing job. Getting Platinum is basically a way to afford to attend more tournaments per year, which in turn makes them a more qualified writer.
Regarding appearance fees, is this something that other games do? MLG?
DOTA 2's yearly tournament, The International, has a payout of $25,000 or so to the bottom 4 out of 16 teams. This is essentially an appearance fee, as they showed up and lost.
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This may be getting off topic, but why exactly was a draw unacceptable? That was the outcome of the match.
Because the best outcome for their team (which usually involves prize splits agreed upon before the tournament) was for one to win and one to lose. That would potentially put one of them in the top 8 which would involve a better shot at prizes. It also opened up the possibility for the prestige of their team winning the whole tournament, which very nearly happened.
So the draw was unacceptable to the people playing, but they both played to a draw. That makes complete sense.
The argument from both sides wasn't that one should concede to the other, it was who should concede. Mori argued he was in a better position at that moment while Menguci argued he had a bomb in hand (that Mori didn't even bring in from the sideboard) and that Mori was out of answers to it, so he would almost certainly win the game. Mori was also looking at the possibility of a HoF induction with a top 8 here, and from a prestige standpoint that's way better than just getting Menguci into the top 8.
And neither of their arguments matter because they played past the time limit and hit the turn extension and still couldn't close the game out.
Concessions like this are dumb and shouldn't be allowed. Neither Mori nor Menguci is at fault for asking/giving a concession, but they shouldn't be allowed.
This may be getting off topic, but why exactly was a draw unacceptable? That was the outcome of the match.
Because the best outcome for their team (which usually involves prize splits agreed upon before the tournament) was for one to win and one to lose. That would potentially put one of them in the top 8 which would involve a better shot at prizes. It also opened up the possibility for the prestige of their team winning the whole tournament, which very nearly happened.
So the draw was unacceptable to the people playing, but they both played to a draw. That makes complete sense.
The argument from both sides wasn't that one should concede to the other, it was who should concede. Mori argued he was in a better position at that moment while Menguci argued he had a bomb in hand (that Mori didn't even bring in from the sideboard) and that Mori was out of answers to it, so he would almost certainly win the game. Mori was also looking at the possibility of a HoF induction with a top 8 here, and from a prestige standpoint that's way better than just getting Menguci into the top 8.
And neither of their arguments matter because they played past the time limit and hit the turn extension and still couldn't close the game out.
Concessions like this are dumb and shouldn't be allowed. Neither Mori nor Menguci is at fault for asking/giving a concession, but they shouldn't be allowed.
They shouldn't be allowed to quit? That doesn't make sense. If that was the case then this discussion would have just happened a couple turns earlier.
Most pro's already get by through writing articles, not through winning.
To put this into perspective, it's perfectly fair to say that many pros are pro Magic writers first, and pro Magic players second.
As I alluded to before, a big part of becoming Platinum, Gold, etc. Is making enough friends and establishing a reputation to "hook up" the players that scoop to you. I'd wager to say very few people are getting to platinum without massive numbers of concessions and giving compensation later. If you go to enough GPs and or old PTQs you see it happen. The scoop in an important match and then right out in the open the player finds the other and gives him cards or money.
Y'all know where WOTC gets the money to pay players just for showing up, right?
Consider me fine with the idea that I won't have to pay 5 bucks a booster pack next year to prop up an unsustainable program that subsidizes 40 guys with foiled-out tier 1 decks for every format and play a kid's game for a living.
They shouldn't be allowed to quit? That doesn't make sense. If that was the case then this discussion would have just happened a couple turns earlier.
A) There's a difference between conceding and quitting (not really in this specific case, but in general).
B) Once you get to turns you should be forced to accept the game of Magic you played. So any "discussion" would've happened during the clock which I'm fine with.
C) It also would've been completely different.
And, since this is going way off topic, I'll leave it here.
Y'all know where WOTC gets the money to pay players just for showing up, right?
Consider me fine with the idea that I won't have to pay 5 bucks a booster pack next year to prop up an unsustainable program that subsidizes 40 guys with foiled-out tier 1 decks for every format and play a kid's game for a living.
How naive are you? They cut this program and put a pittance back into the prize pool. You'll be paying the same price, and that money that would have gone to pros goes to stockholders instead.
Y'all know where WOTC gets the money to pay players just for showing up, right?
Consider me fine with the idea that I won't have to pay 5 bucks a booster pack next year to prop up an unsustainable program that subsidizes 40 guys with foiled-out tier 1 decks for every format and play a kid's game for a living.
How naive are you? They cut this program and put a pittance back into the prize pool. You'll be paying the same price, and that money that would have gone to pros goes to stockholders instead.
Speculation. Who's to say they won't use the 100K saved to create a couple of design/development positions, positions that a couple of highly-enfranchised Platinum pros would be well-suited for? For all the howling, the change might actually produce new opportunities for a career in MTG.
Just as it is with many others it seems, I feel a rough next couple of years for magic. WotC made a wonderful game and has sustained it for over 2 decades, but I fear recent financial decisions as well as the lack of attention to the digital field is going to slowly ruin the game I love. As a casual commander player, who has no stake in the professional scene whatsoever, I only want my favorite hobby to continue for as long as possible just so I can keep getting the enjoyment I always have out of it. I sincerely hope my feelings are wrong and that I can continue to play this game in peace, but I do worry one year the game I love will be dead and only a handful of others and myself will be around to enjoy it anymore
Speculation. Who's to say they won't use the 100K saved to create a couple of design/development positions, positions that a couple of highly-enfranchised Platinum pros would be well-suited for? For all the howling, the change might actually produce new opportunities for a career in MTG.
Why would they?
And why wouldn't they announce that's what it's for?
You're making the assumption here - that WotC is adding one or more design/dev positions (any source for that?), that the money to do so had to come from the platinum fund and nowhere else, and that there are no other plans for that money.
Also, 100k saved wouldn't put a dent in the amount you pay per booster pack. Not even a penny.
Speculation. Who's to say they won't use the 100K saved to create a couple of design/development positions, positions that a couple of highly-enfranchised Platinum pros would be well-suited for? For all the howling, the change might actually produce new opportunities for a career in MTG.
Bear in mind the quotes here are a bit biased, but we still have a clear picture of what working at Wizards is like, and, well, the corporate culture as presented at Wizards makes me doubtful we'll see significant innovation.
Bear in mind the quotes here are a bit biased, but we still have a clear picture of what working at Wizards is like, and, well, the corporate culture as presented at Wizards makes me doubtful we'll see significant innovation.
My field is video game engineering, it's pretty common knowledge in the field that WotC sucks to work at. They pay below average and outside of the design/development positions it's a toxic work environment. This is part of why MTGO sucks so much, they just can't attract talented people to work on it. Why go work on an awesome game like Magic if you can go work on an awesome game like League, have a better work environment, and still play Magic? And especially lately with digital card games rising up all over the place, if you want to specialize in that type of game you have a lot of options.
I don't think some people understand why Pros are upset. Playing Professional Magic is an expensive proposition. They have Pro Tours and GPs all around the world. They presented the incentive as one of gaining platinum status so that you could gain these appearance fees that justify you going to the GPs in far flung areas and the PTs in exotic locations that are an expensive fligth and hotel or apartment stay away. Now, as Alexander Hayne noted in his tweet (https://twitter.com/InsayneHayne/status/724284766267256832) "Platinum is now actually negative EV, 250$ is probably less than the RPTQ promo is worth". Attaining platinum is no longer worth the effort, period. It is too expensive to justify flying all around to GPs. The issue is that they made this change sooooo late in the season, after so many ppl had spent so much time and money to get the platinum status and then have this announcement flung on them. Did they ever consider consulting with some pros about changes they had in mind and what they thought might be the repercussions of them? Of course not, all Wizards cares aobut is their bottom line, clearly not the players, as this announcement clearly shows. When you have both Jon Finkel and Brian Kibler, two of the more successful Magic players, not only completely disagreeing with the change, but actually wrting articles/blogs on the issue, you know there is something seriously wrong going on.
I don't think some people understand why Pros are upset. Playing Professional Magic is an expensive proposition. They have Pro Tours and GPs all around the world. They presented the incentive as one of gaining platinum status so that you could gain these appearance fees that justify you going to the GPs in far flung areas and the PTs in exotic locations that are an expensive fligth and hotel or apartment stay away.
Doesn't apply to GPs which are necessary to grind if you want to obtain / maintain Platinum. This may not be as big of a deal for US based players which tends to get more GPs during the year vs Asian or European players.
My thoughts are that it is really bad for the game. There are other games where professionals have the potential to win WAY more money than in Magic. But one of the draw in Magic was a tiered pro-point system with GUARANTEED incentives. If you remove the incentives then pros will find another game. For example, David Williams was a Magic player until he moved onto poker and got 2nd in the 2004 WSOP main event. He is now a millionaire. No one has become a millionaire from playing Magic. I bet even local poker grinders make more money than the highest paid Magic player. But poker has more variance and if WOTC was providing other incentives maybe it was enough to keep pros in the game. Take away that incentive and it MAY inspire some people to move on. Can you imagine Magic without LSV? That's like imagining poker without Phil Ivey. The game will go on but it wouldn't be the same.
I just feel it'll give people less of a reason to show up and play tournaments if they're making less money.
With WotC trying to make it more of an esport, I think it would be important for them to have big name players who everyone knows
By the way, random fun fact: The prize pool for the Pro Tour is less than it was in 2008 if you consider inflation.
In 2008, it was $230,795. According to this, that amount in 2008 is $255,266.65 in today's dollars. And the prize pool for the Pro Tour right now is... $250,000. So the prize pool is actually slightly less than it was in the past, even though the game has gained a lot more popularity in the meantime.
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1) That the person is a teammate is irrelevant. If you believe AM did not bully Mori into concession, ten being teammates is not an issue. If you believe he DID bully Mori into concession, then being teammates is no excuse. Either way being teammates is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether AM bullied, or not, Mori into a concession. In my personal opinion, he was borderline. Maybe bully is too strong a word, but he was very adamant and insintant.
1.b) To avoid these "borderline" situations, I suggested to have a sistem where either (a) requesting a concession is not allowed or (b) have strict and objective guidelines about when yiu can request a concession, such as "there is 100% probability you win next turn". That was the point I wanted to transmit with my story.
1.c)I already said in my post that it was not the same situation. My story was an illustration of a situation where it is clear and objective who wins. And outside of those situations, concessions should not be requested (only offered by the losing player)
2) Giving Mori a cut would be against the rules.
3) no-one should villify MOri if he decided not to concede, because the rules are the rules. But I saw many pple (here and in other forums) sayig that if Mori did not concede, he'd be "wrong" in some sense. I disagree with that opinion.
Because the best outcome for their team (which usually involves prize splits agreed upon before the tournament) was for one to win and one to lose. That would potentially put one of them in the top 8 which would involve a better shot at prizes. It also opened up the possibility for the prestige of their team winning the whole tournament, which very nearly happened.
The argument from both sides wasn't that one should concede to the other, it was who should concede. Mori argued he was in a better position at that moment while Menguci argued he had a bomb in hand (that Mori didn't even bring in from the sideboard) and that Mori was out of answers to it, so he would almost certainly win the game. Mori was also looking at the possibility of a HoF induction with a top 8 here, and from a prestige standpoint that's way better than just getting Menguci into the top 8.
Many esports don't have appearance fees but they do pay pro's to associate with the game. For example Riot makes rather generous payments to each professional team (I've read 230k but I'm not sure on the exact figures). That's in addition to the teams corporate sponsorships, their streaming revenue, and their (much) higher tournament prizes.
Appearance fees are the minimum WotC can be doing in this regard, considering they've completely botched Magic streaming, have little sponsorship opportunity, and the tournament winnings side of things are a joke. Most pro's already get by through writing articles, not through winning. Winning tournaments is basically a cost of doing business, if you're lucky you'll break even on attending them, but doing well at them is basically good for your resume when landing a writing job. Getting Platinum is basically a way to afford to attend more tournaments per year, which in turn makes them a more qualified writer.
DOTA 2's yearly tournament, The International, has a payout of $25,000 or so to the bottom 4 out of 16 teams. This is essentially an appearance fee, as they showed up and lost.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
So the draw was unacceptable to the people playing, but they both played to a draw. That makes complete sense.
And neither of their arguments matter because they played past the time limit and hit the turn extension and still couldn't close the game out.
Concessions like this are dumb and shouldn't be allowed. Neither Mori nor Menguci is at fault for asking/giving a concession, but they shouldn't be allowed.
They shouldn't be allowed to quit? That doesn't make sense. If that was the case then this discussion would have just happened a couple turns earlier.
To put this into perspective, it's perfectly fair to say that many pros are pro Magic writers first, and pro Magic players second.
As I alluded to before, a big part of becoming Platinum, Gold, etc. Is making enough friends and establishing a reputation to "hook up" the players that scoop to you. I'd wager to say very few people are getting to platinum without massive numbers of concessions and giving compensation later. If you go to enough GPs and or old PTQs you see it happen. The scoop in an important match and then right out in the open the player finds the other and gives him cards or money.
Consider me fine with the idea that I won't have to pay 5 bucks a booster pack next year to prop up an unsustainable program that subsidizes 40 guys with foiled-out tier 1 decks for every format and play a kid's game for a living.
A) There's a difference between conceding and quitting (not really in this specific case, but in general).
B) Once you get to turns you should be forced to accept the game of Magic you played. So any "discussion" would've happened during the clock which I'm fine with.
C) It also would've been completely different.
And, since this is going way off topic, I'll leave it here.
How naive are you? They cut this program and put a pittance back into the prize pool. You'll be paying the same price, and that money that would have gone to pros goes to stockholders instead.
Speculation. Who's to say they won't use the 100K saved to create a couple of design/development positions, positions that a couple of highly-enfranchised Platinum pros would be well-suited for? For all the howling, the change might actually produce new opportunities for a career in MTG.
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls - Knowledge is Power U [Primer]
R Heartless Hidetsugu - The Art of Ending Games R
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - The Cluster HungersBG
Why would they?
And why wouldn't they announce that's what it's for?
You're making the assumption here - that WotC is adding one or more design/dev positions (any source for that?), that the money to do so had to come from the platinum fund and nowhere else, and that there are no other plans for that money.
Also, 100k saved wouldn't put a dent in the amount you pay per booster pack. Not even a penny.
Bear in mind the quotes here are a bit biased, but we still have a clear picture of what working at Wizards is like, and, well, the corporate culture as presented at Wizards makes me doubtful we'll see significant innovation.
My field is video game engineering, it's pretty common knowledge in the field that WotC sucks to work at. They pay below average and outside of the design/development positions it's a toxic work environment. This is part of why MTGO sucks so much, they just can't attract talented people to work on it. Why go work on an awesome game like Magic if you can go work on an awesome game like League, have a better work environment, and still play Magic? And especially lately with digital card games rising up all over the place, if you want to specialize in that type of game you have a lot of options.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
You mean the flight and hotel that WotC pays for?
So no, the appearance fees didn't exist to balance the cost of travel because there wasn't one.
With WotC trying to make it more of an esport, I think it would be important for them to have big name players who everyone knows
In 2008, it was $230,795. According to this, that amount in 2008 is $255,266.65 in today's dollars. And the prize pool for the Pro Tour right now is... $250,000. So the prize pool is actually slightly less than it was in the past, even though the game has gained a lot more popularity in the meantime.
http://magic.wizards.com/articles/archive/news/announcement-concerning-changes-pro-club-2016-04-26
TL;DR - appearance fees not changing this season. Prize pool still 250k. Reevaluate for next year, talking with pros while they do so.