While there's several cards I really wish modern had (like force of will) I just don't see a legacy lite really working.
The majority of top decks only use duals as reserved cards so apart from making burn better by switching to shocks there's hardly any change at the top. What it will do is hugely impact the combo decks which is unfortunate.
I've seen people saying about running pod, twin and banned modern cards like that but honestly if they're unable to be competitive now I can't see that changing. Both recurring nightmare and survival are better imo but both are on the reserved list... and if you're playing a UR twin list might as well play a sneak/s&t deck.
Then the question is who would the play base be? If you're a modern player you have the mana base but you're still going to be missing big money cards. If you're a legacy player already then there's little incentive to play the same format but where you can't use your expensive cards. If you're new to magic completely you'd not just be jumping into this either. It's one thing to have enough people play to make it a thing on mtgo where you only need 1 other person to play it's another entirely to try to organise a real life event around it.
Ideally the reserved list itself would be removed somehow but that's not going to happen. What bothers me most is that they could easily reprint everything but power so that legacy was open and still not really impact prices (maybe prices don't decrease but at least supply increases). Tarmogoyf has been reprinted twice yet it's $70+ more than before the printings.
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hard to attract a large player base. Remember, we are talking about the future here where Legacy has little or no support for tournaments, so players who like Legacy but want to be able to play something similar at a tournament level would definitely be interested in this format. As for the Modern players, well a lot of the modern player base is unhappy with the current lack of interaction and viability of interactive decks in the format, so I could certainly see them switching over to Legacy Lite.
I think too many people are thinking about this as if it would be established as a new format tomorrow or something, well of course Legacy players aren't going to switch over right now while Legacy is still alive and well. I certainly wouldn't. But again, we're talking about what will happen when Legacy goes the way of Vintage and there is almost no support for it.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
The point is to have a format that offers a similar experience to Legacy without the cost of entry, which will be absolutely insane in several years. A format where enough players can be involved such that tournament organizers have enough incentive to run events using this format.
The problem is that the format wouldn't offer a similar experience to Legacy at all. It might not even necessarily be a bad format, but it definitely won't resemble Legacy.
I'm a bit less skeptical than some others (for example, yeah, we'd lose MUD and Lands, which is bad because they're cool decks, but they aren't really "defining" Legacy decks; and LED and Cradle are ALREADY expensive enough to be a huge barrier to their decks) but losing the Dual Lands isn't just a matter of making the Burn decks better. Delver, Sneak and Show, Miracles, Stoneblade, DnT... having to pay life for your mana just doesn't affect all of these decks equally and you'd see a MASSIVELY different meta than we have now
Oh yeah, that meta would certainly be different. Anyone who is looking for an exact copycat meta from Legacy would not enjoy the format. But while the meta might be very different, we'd still get to play with Brainstorm, Wasteland, Force, Ponder, Daze, DRS, Stoneforge Mystic, JTMS...the core pieces of what makes Legacy what it is would almost all still be there. And when you have a format full of those cards you're bound to have an interesting meta I think. It's likely that the almost perfect balance between archetypes that exists in Legacy now would still exist in this new format.
Having to use Shocklands is an issue, and it might make straight aggro like Burn or Zoo better, but that's nothing that a meta with so many good answers and control cards couldn't adapt to.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Unfortunately Pauper will never get a lot of support for a paper scene because it wouldn't make Wizards any money. What are they gonna do, sell Pauper Masters packs for $0.50 each?
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
I think the "top decks" would be very hard to predict, and much more different than people realize simply because of ONE reserved list card: Lion's eye diamond. This one card is absolutely critical to the competitiveness of various storm strategies, other fast combo, and dredge. Without it, there is almost zero fast combo, with the only thing I can think of off the top of my head being show and tell variants. This has a couple of HUGE effects:
1) aggro strategies, which lose to fast combo, become MUCH better. Suddenly burn, affinity, zoo, merfolk, and a bunch of other stuff is much more viable than it was before. Midrange also gets better. This effect is exacerbated by ABUR duals becoming shocks.
2) force of will, daze, and spell pierce (read: basically the entire current legacy counterspell suite) become MUCH worse, as they are critical vs. combo but mediocre to bad vs. linear aggro.
Those two changes are so large in scope it's honestly hard for me to even begin to predict what that format would look like. Weirdly, I could see the premiere combo deck becoming... wait for it... Splinter Twin. At that point, with twin probably being good, and lots of linear aggro making it harder to play control, I feel like legacy might start looking a lot more like modern.
You'd still have Sneak and Show and Reanimator though which would be way better than Splinter Twin or any Modern-inspired combo deck. I think combo as a whole would be just fine, if not they could always unban a Storm card like Mind's Desire.
Dredge would also still be very competitive even without LED.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
You'd still have Sneak and Show and Reanimator though which would be way better than Splinter Twin or any Modern-inspired combo deck. I think combo as a whole would be just fine, if not they could always unban a Storm card like Mind's Desire.
Dredge would also still be very competitive even without LED.
Sneak and Show might still be viable without city of traitors and intuition, but it will likely drop a few tiers. I actually think Sneak and Show would suffer MORE than the LED combo decks, Storm has shown its power time and time again even as Wizards tries to ban its fast mana
No, I wouldn't play it. Please don't bastardize legacy into a new modern =/
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G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G UG Tishana, Voice of Thunder GU UBW Sen Triplets WBU WUBGAtraxa, Praetors' Voice GBUW WUBRGJodah, Archmage Eternal GRBUW GWR Mayael the Anima RWG RWB Edgar Markov BWR WG Gaddok Teeg GW W Oketra the True W
--- My Decklist Folder
Unfortunately Pauper will never get a lot of support for a paper scene because it wouldn't make Wizards any money. What are they gonna do, sell Pauper Masters packs for $0.50 each?
I would definitely buy this.
But on a serious note, Eternal Masters is right up my ally.
You see I usually play Pauper and Commander (both Eternal formats). Meaning I need playsets of commons and single cards of rares and uncommons. I am really interested to see what EMA has to offer and if it is worth my money, but is is one of the products which got me really intrigued.
I would never open up booster hopeing to get a rare or even a mythic. Commons on the other hand are more reliable to get. So when I start cracking packs I will do it for the commons. However usually selling the rares for profit usually does not work since the chances to get anything of value is rather low.
I am not sure how Wizards might profit from that. But there is money in this direction, which is currently mostly spend on the secondary market.
Also I think people are reading a bit to much into maro's comment. Of course it is a 'when' with new formats. Multiple formats are the success story of mtg, so inventing new ways to play the game is something they actively look out for.
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Drop your knees to the floor
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Give a round of applause
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Those who currently enjoy playing Legacy but are worried about its future outlook: Is this format something you'd be interested in if support for Legacy began to dwindle?
No. It sounds awful. And the only real solution to all of this is one I am not supposed to discuss here, so... yeah.
I would play the hell out of "Unreserved Legacy", if only to give me another excuse not to play standard or limited. The main sticking point for me would be trying to keep it's identity as close to legacy as possible, I would hate to see this theoretical format inherit the same problems Modern has.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
I think it's an inevitability, but I hope it doesn't happen too soon. Modern still has room to grow, and it can be a wonderful format. If the format was announced now, alot of people would panic and jump ship.
Almost every combo deck runs LED or City of Traitors (or Cradle). We also lose Lands, MUD, 12Post, and some fringier decks (which could always make s comeback given the right printing/unban) like High Tide, Enchantress, and Pox.
To me (personal opinion/tastes), these odd-ball strategies are what makes Magic interesting as a game. Basically almost every deck that makes Legacy appealing to me would likely not survive the transition. I expect the resulting format would be predominantly "fair" creature based decks. I like to play against fair decks, but not all the time.
Also, I would need to buy in! My Legacy collection consists of the cards I need to sleeve up RUG(b) Lands, R/G Lands with an array of options for the flex slots and SB. Also I have almost ervetythng I need for the Jund version of Lands. Playing another Eternal format would mean shelling out hundreds of dollars which I can't really afford and would rather spend on EDH or Legacy (or another hobbie or small home improvement) even if I could afford it.
And then there is time. I'm lucky to make it to a LGS event once a month. Part of why I never tookplay Modern is that it wouldn't expand my hobbie so much as divide it. Every non-legacy event I lay is not be less Legacy event.
I'd love this format (Legacy) to be accessible - I'm not an elitist and I'd rather take the hit on my duals and Tabernacle etc if it meant more people could play. But Eternal sans RL is something I have neither the time, money, nor the inclination to participate in.
As I said in the other thread, I fully support this idea, but only if they print new cards that are on the same power level as the cards on the Reserved List, in sets specifically meant for Legacy/Vintage only.
The only way this works is if Wotc pulls the plug of life support on Legacy. They killed Extended for Modern, think the same with Legacy for this.
That being said to many people have certain things ingrained in their head and cant figure the change. Dredge has been viable in every format its ever been legal in. It doesnt 'need' LED to work in the new format.
I personally probably wouldnt play the format, I dont like Legacy, I dont want Modern to reach that same power level. It probably would have great support from Wotc and LGS and eventually players would play that like that type of Magic. I think its a good idea for everyone involved.
I think it's an inevitability, but I hope it doesn't happen too soon. Modern still has room to grow, and it can be a wonderful format. If the format was announced now, alot of people would panic and jump ship.
I would bet on Unresserved not being a Pro Tour format and everything remaining mostly the same. The only big difference would be there being an Unresserved GP or two.
Standard and Limited would still be the primary formats for GP, PPTQ, RPTQ and PT, Modern would get it's PT season. The spikes would keep these two alive.
Then Unresserved becomes the casual format of choice for people who want to buil decks to last years, maybe eventually jump into Legacy, both of whom keep their GP here and there, and then there's Eternal Weekend for the Vintage spotlight.
And how would they do that? Cancel the one existing US and European Legacy GP each year? oh, thats pretty intimidating...
Just doing bans? You know how Commander and Oldschool are managed? Not by wizards. If they would activly try to pull the plug via bans on legacy, people would just become independent from them.
Take away sanctioning. Commander is a causal format that Wotc allows sanctioned events. Vintage rarely can be sanctioned because of the proxies needed by most. I believe the one of the only sanctioned Vintage events is eternal weekend, which is living on a thread. Was suppose to be cancelled a couple years ago but the venue was already paid for and one Wotc employee begged for it.
On the bans, I have said multiple times Wotc should give Legacy to say SCG to TCG to manage. But this would also be a conflict of interests with SCG. Also SCG has been leaning more towards Modern more and more.
All Wotc has to do is take Legacy off the sanction list and make it a dead format, ala Extended. Replace it with the new format. Push LGS and T.O.s to do the new format and not Legacy. Wouldnt really take much.
I would not play that format. Playing shocklands when port/wasteland/PoP are legal sounds like a sick joke. All that would happen is that burn would push fair three color decks out of the format, and combo would reign supreme.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
It would be an interesting supplement to Legacy, but would serve as a poor replacement in my eyes. The decks I enjoy playing would take huge hits from Reserve List bannings and the format would lose a lot of the decks that give it character.
I'd also strongly consider selling out of competitive Constructed if Wizards killed Legacy; I don't enjoy their Standard product enough to participate "competitively" and my confidence in their ability to manage Modern is quite low.
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The majority of top decks only use duals as reserved cards so apart from making burn better by switching to shocks there's hardly any change at the top. What it will do is hugely impact the combo decks which is unfortunate.
I've seen people saying about running pod, twin and banned modern cards like that but honestly if they're unable to be competitive now I can't see that changing. Both recurring nightmare and survival are better imo but both are on the reserved list... and if you're playing a UR twin list might as well play a sneak/s&t deck.
Then the question is who would the play base be? If you're a modern player you have the mana base but you're still going to be missing big money cards. If you're a legacy player already then there's little incentive to play the same format but where you can't use your expensive cards. If you're new to magic completely you'd not just be jumping into this either. It's one thing to have enough people play to make it a thing on mtgo where you only need 1 other person to play it's another entirely to try to organise a real life event around it.
Ideally the reserved list itself would be removed somehow but that's not going to happen. What bothers me most is that they could easily reprint everything but power so that legacy was open and still not really impact prices (maybe prices don't decrease but at least supply increases). Tarmogoyf has been reprinted twice yet it's $70+ more than before the printings.
I think too many people are thinking about this as if it would be established as a new format tomorrow or something, well of course Legacy players aren't going to switch over right now while Legacy is still alive and well. I certainly wouldn't. But again, we're talking about what will happen when Legacy goes the way of Vintage and there is almost no support for it.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
The problem is that the format wouldn't offer a similar experience to Legacy at all. It might not even necessarily be a bad format, but it definitely won't resemble Legacy.
I'm a bit less skeptical than some others (for example, yeah, we'd lose MUD and Lands, which is bad because they're cool decks, but they aren't really "defining" Legacy decks; and LED and Cradle are ALREADY expensive enough to be a huge barrier to their decks) but losing the Dual Lands isn't just a matter of making the Burn decks better. Delver, Sneak and Show, Miracles, Stoneblade, DnT... having to pay life for your mana just doesn't affect all of these decks equally and you'd see a MASSIVELY different meta than we have now
Having to use Shocklands is an issue, and it might make straight aggro like Burn or Zoo better, but that's nothing that a meta with so many good answers and control cards couldn't adapt to.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
1) aggro strategies, which lose to fast combo, become MUCH better. Suddenly burn, affinity, zoo, merfolk, and a bunch of other stuff is much more viable than it was before. Midrange also gets better. This effect is exacerbated by ABUR duals becoming shocks.
2) force of will, daze, and spell pierce (read: basically the entire current legacy counterspell suite) become MUCH worse, as they are critical vs. combo but mediocre to bad vs. linear aggro.
Those two changes are so large in scope it's honestly hard for me to even begin to predict what that format would look like. Weirdly, I could see the premiere combo deck becoming... wait for it... Splinter Twin. At that point, with twin probably being good, and lots of linear aggro making it harder to play control, I feel like legacy might start looking a lot more like modern.
Legacy burn can't compete in a 17-19 life format (fetch/dual manabases), but it can in a 13-15 life format (fetch/shock).
City of Traitors is the other super-impactful reserve list card.
Dredge would also still be very competitive even without LED.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
Sneak and Show might still be viable without city of traitors and intuition, but it will likely drop a few tiers. I actually think Sneak and Show would suffer MORE than the LED combo decks, Storm has shown its power time and time again even as Wizards tries to ban its fast mana
UG Tishana, Voice of Thunder GU
UBW Sen Triplets WBU
WUBGAtraxa, Praetors' Voice GBUW
WUBRGJodah, Archmage Eternal GRBUW
GWR Mayael the Anima RWG
RWB Edgar Markov BWR
WG Gaddok Teeg GW
W Oketra the True W
---
My Decklist Folder
I would definitely buy this.
But on a serious note, Eternal Masters is right up my ally.
You see I usually play Pauper and Commander (both Eternal formats). Meaning I need playsets of commons and single cards of rares and uncommons. I am really interested to see what EMA has to offer and if it is worth my money, but is is one of the products which got me really intrigued.
I would never open up booster hopeing to get a rare or even a mythic. Commons on the other hand are more reliable to get. So when I start cracking packs I will do it for the commons. However usually selling the rares for profit usually does not work since the chances to get anything of value is rather low.
I am not sure how Wizards might profit from that. But there is money in this direction, which is currently mostly spend on the secondary market.
Also I think people are reading a bit to much into maro's comment. Of course it is a 'when' with new formats. Multiple formats are the success story of mtg, so inventing new ways to play the game is something they actively look out for.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Special thanks to XenoNinja of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the awesome avy!
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
To me (personal opinion/tastes), these odd-ball strategies are what makes Magic interesting as a game. Basically almost every deck that makes Legacy appealing to me would likely not survive the transition. I expect the resulting format would be predominantly "fair" creature based decks. I like to play against fair decks, but not all the time.
Also, I would need to buy in! My Legacy collection consists of the cards I need to sleeve up RUG(b) Lands, R/G Lands with an array of options for the flex slots and SB. Also I have almost ervetythng I need for the Jund version of Lands. Playing another Eternal format would mean shelling out hundreds of dollars which I can't really afford and would rather spend on EDH or Legacy (or another hobbie or small home improvement) even if I could afford it.
And then there is time. I'm lucky to make it to a LGS event once a month. Part of why I never tookplay Modern is that it wouldn't expand my hobbie so much as divide it. Every non-legacy event I lay is not be less Legacy event.
I'd love this format (Legacy) to be accessible - I'm not an elitist and I'd rather take the hit on my duals and Tabernacle etc if it meant more people could play. But Eternal sans RL is something I have neither the time, money, nor the inclination to participate in.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
That being said to many people have certain things ingrained in their head and cant figure the change. Dredge has been viable in every format its ever been legal in. It doesnt 'need' LED to work in the new format.
I personally probably wouldnt play the format, I dont like Legacy, I dont want Modern to reach that same power level. It probably would have great support from Wotc and LGS and eventually players would play that like that type of Magic. I think its a good idea for everyone involved.
I would bet on Unresserved not being a Pro Tour format and everything remaining mostly the same. The only big difference would be there being an Unresserved GP or two.
Standard and Limited would still be the primary formats for GP, PPTQ, RPTQ and PT, Modern would get it's PT season. The spikes would keep these two alive.
Then Unresserved becomes the casual format of choice for people who want to buil decks to last years, maybe eventually jump into Legacy, both of whom keep their GP here and there, and then there's Eternal Weekend for the Vintage spotlight.
Take away sanctioning. Commander is a causal format that Wotc allows sanctioned events. Vintage rarely can be sanctioned because of the proxies needed by most. I believe the one of the only sanctioned Vintage events is eternal weekend, which is living on a thread. Was suppose to be cancelled a couple years ago but the venue was already paid for and one Wotc employee begged for it.
On the bans, I have said multiple times Wotc should give Legacy to say SCG to TCG to manage. But this would also be a conflict of interests with SCG. Also SCG has been leaning more towards Modern more and more.
All Wotc has to do is take Legacy off the sanction list and make it a dead format, ala Extended. Replace it with the new format. Push LGS and T.O.s to do the new format and not Legacy. Wouldnt really take much.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I'd also strongly consider selling out of competitive Constructed if Wizards killed Legacy; I don't enjoy their Standard product enough to participate "competitively" and my confidence in their ability to manage Modern is quite low.