If it turns out vendors have been getting information ahead of us, then I am out. Just done. Reprints are only one way to ruin a card games value. Another is a tremendous loss of confidence. Market manipulation at the WOTC Level. Not player, not dealer...at the very top, WOTC. The reward was just too large, I guess. If they've been turning a blind eye to this ***** (if it turns out to be true) but bring the hammer down on a couple of judges for leaking some cards...**** WOTC. This has been a thumb on the scale for Pro "Teams" (access to cardpools early, build early, test early) and large shop buyers (dump reprints, buy non-reprints) and I am not going to buy into a rigged game like that.
Wizard's answers. They'd better take some ****ers to court over this one.
Here is why this is a big deal. Part of the reason why Magic is so popular is the Magic Economy. You buy, sell and trade cards that are actually worth money because of limited print runs and their relative power. This is such an important part of Magic, they've enshrined their own effort to protect it in the Reserved List. Maybe the Reserved List isn't so relevant now besides keeping Legacy back, but back then it was a huge deal. It was a solemn vow to protect the collector as well as the gamer. Now you have this ***** show. If it turns out people have been REALLY gaming the system, then the system is broken and people lose faith. People like me. Once people lose faith, there goes the gravy train. WOTC has to restore faith and do so quickly, or the economy will fall apart.
This is assuming this is more than one small time vendor. Even then, I would expect more public punishment than the Judges as they're not just protecting Marketing now - they're protecting the whole Magic system.
While I'm greatly dissatisfied with the current events, I still love Magic as a game, and I'm eager to explore new sets/themes and play limited. I don't think the future of the game is seriously jeopardized (although damages can be done). The entire hoarding/speculation/financial magic world was built on such a massively unstable footing, it's a miracle it hasn't toppled over sooner.
When I click on the link I have a hard time sorting through all the nonsense to find the meat of whatever the issue is. Can you summarize what is supposedly happening and who is supposedly involved?
When I click on the link I have a hard time sorting through all the nonsense to find the meat of whatever the issue is. Can you summarize what is supposedly happening and who is supposedly involved?
From what I understood, whenever they have sets being printed, there are massive leaks that get distributed to vendors and those vendors use the leaks in concert to sort prices. In other words, before we even know what the sets are, some vendors already have the list and know how to price it and what to withhold in terms of products.
When I click on the link I have a hard time sorting through all the nonsense to find the meat of whatever the issue is. Can you summarize what is supposedly happening and who is supposedly involved?
The really problematic thing about all of these leaks is that there's no evidence that any of them actually have any inside information. I don't care if the guy on Reddit (temp_acct_leak) predicted the name of the summer set. MTGS was awash with rumors of a Legacy masters set since MM2013, and the name of it wasn't too hard to predict: either Legacy Masters or Eternal Masters. He could have just guessed the correct choice of the two available options. The set would obviously contain the non-Reserved List Legacy staples like Force and Wasteland. What the hell would they put in it otherwise, Sorrow's Path?
This same user did NOT predict the Modern bans correctly. He said Amulet of Vigor and Splinter Twin were getting banned. Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin got banned instead. Again, people on MTGS threw around the idea of a Twin ban from time to time, although it was not the most popular suggestion and was usually dismissed.
This Vendorleak guy also has not posted any proof of his accusations. SCG or CFB did not put Twin on sale or take Twin off its buylist before the ban. He needs some serious evidence, something like a timestamped Skype call of Ben Bleiweiss talking with the informant about an upcoming set. I would believe him if he posted that.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
The really problematic thing about all of these leaks is that there's no evidence that any of them actually have any inside information. I don't care if the guy on Reddit (temp_acct_leak) predicted the name of the summer set. MTGS was awash with rumors of a Legacy masters set since MM2013, and the name of it wasn't too hard to predict: either Legacy Masters or Eternal Masters. He could have just guessed the correct choice of the two available options. The set would obviously contain the non-Reserved List Legacy staples like Force and Wasteland. What the hell would they put in it otherwise, Sorrow's Path?
This same user did NOT predict the Modern bans correctly. He said Amulet of Vigor and Splinter Twin were getting banned. Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin got banned instead. Again, people on MTGS threw around the idea of a Twin ban from time to time, although it was not the most popular suggestion and was usually dismissed.
This Vendorleak guy also has not posted any proof of his accusations. SCG or CFB did not put Twin on sale or take Twin off its buylist before the ban. He needs some serious evidence, something like a timestamped Skype call of Ben Bleiweiss talking with the informant about an upcoming set. I would believe him if he posted that.
Actually, SCG did take Twin and Bloom off the buylist prior to the ban being officially announced (heard about it on an LSV stream).
Also, SCG a few years back were buying up Zendikar fetches left and right, and then a week later Wizards announced Modern as an eternal format.
The whole rares and mythics list for Eternal Masters has been allegedly leaked as well. Almost all the cards the reddit guy said would be there, are there. Not to mention that the whole "some vendor has a complete EMA set up for sale" has been confirmed by another party.
The point is, even if this reddit guy isn't 100% reliable, he's been fairly consistent with his predictions. And the Vendorleak guy, at the very least, is just saying what we all have been thinking.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
This is barely relevant to the topic but does every damn thing have to be called X-gate?
I hate this trend as well. People use it like a suffix for anything controversial. I was really annoyed to see a thread on reddit labeled #LeakGate. Watergate was an information leak, it's completely redundant.
Of course the game is rigged. We all now it's rigged. Look at all the insider trading/revolving door bs that happens daily in the business world. The MTG market doesn't have 1/1000th of the regulations any other market has, and for some reason we're to believe everyone's nice honest?
If I was a operation half the size of SCG, my number one goal would be to send a trusted informer into the card production pipeline (print shop, WOTC, distributors w/e).
Actually, SCG did take Twin and Bloom off the buylist prior to the ban being officially announced (heard about it on an LSV stream).
Well, to be fair there was the unintentional MTGO beta "leak" that showed that the cards were going to be banned, so I don't think we can draw too much from SCG pulling them off the buy list if it was after the MTGO beta. I can't speak to the rest.
Guy guesses that legacy masters was called eternal masters, everyone freaks out. This is just complete unsubstantiated complaining, the grade of complaining magic players cherish the most. There's really no proof any of this is happening except one guy that got the modern bans wrong.
If it turns out vendors have been getting information ahead of us, then I am out. Just done.
Okay, nobody tell Quacker about the official spoilers during the lead up to each set.
Actually isn't giving vendors information before users pretty much standard practice in everything? That's how third party products are able to roll out in time with the release of new consoles, for instance.
Actually, SCG did take Twin and Bloom off the buylist prior to the ban being officially announced (heard about it on an LSV stream).
Can you prove this, or are you just going off of Twitch chat (of all things)? Please provide evidence: your post is potentially libelous.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
When I click on the link I have a hard time sorting through all the nonsense to find the meat of whatever the issue is. Can you summarize what is supposedly happening and who is supposedly involved?
It appears that an as-yet unknown dealer that is NOT starcitygames knew a fair bit about EMA at least 2 weeks before the Twin ban, possibly by bribing someone with Wizards wickR access.
It is being rumored that someone is selling the set list for USD 25000.
A very reliable source has indicated that they are suspicious of Aether Games but no proof has been offered.
Edit: Oh and on SCG's buylist and Twin: as far as I can tell SCG responded to the MTGO beta leak and not before.
Once the bans went live on the beta (about 48 hours before they should have been published) they were very much in the public eye.
Like them or hate them, SCG look innocent in all of this.
No it doesn't. All it says is that WOTC is aware of the ***** storm and is looking into it and will comment more once their internal investigations have concluded.
It does not confirm that there is a copy of the Eternal masters card list loose in the wild and going to the highest bidder. There is still a lot of room for this to turn into a massive pile of bull*****.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Although this is news, it should not affect you at all. I believe this isnt a recent happening. If this had been happening behind MM2013 & MM2015 while speculation was still on-going, all thats new is you learned about it now. So do you feel you should have said information? Why will WotC give you this privilege? In my opinion, SCG maybe 1 of such vendors. As for player priority, why did it surprise you that companies are partnering each other? MtG has grown from a game to an economy. Lets be realistic. This is just another manufacturer-vendor price protection. Who else believes WotC isnt interested in the secondary market?
It just doesn't make sense to me that a vendor on the level of SCG, etc. would get themselves involved in something like this. The risk is just way too high. If they ever were to get caught out, it would completely destroy their business relationship with Wizards of the Coast. Not being able to TO for large events and not being able to get easy access to sealed product would pretty much cause their business to burst into flames, crumble to the ground, and explode. I know I'm making a lot of assumptions in those few sentences, but to me they seem like reasonable ones.
No it doesn't. All it says is that WOTC is aware of the ***** storm and is looking into it and will comment more once their internal investigations have concluded.
It does not confirm that there is a copy of the Eternal masters card list loose in the wild and going to the highest bidder. There is still a lot of room for this to turn into a massive pile of bull*****.
Wizards wouldn't make a post like that which fuels the rumors unless there were some truth to it.
My biggest issue with this is, whatever Vendor(s), retailers or online stores that MAY have had access early to a list like this (if it existed), the largest ones will not get anything but a slap on the wrist. If WOTC wants to make an example, they will use a smaller one that can't actually hurt their profits to cause Hasbro/Shareholders to become involved/concerned.
No idea how much of the sealed product market the big retailers and vendors have (for new sets)...but I don't see WOTC saying "sorry, you are banned from product." They'll pick a guilty party who's buying power can't affect profits. It will be interesting to see in the coming days if certain legacy cards start being bought by retailers at a better price, and which cards start to see significant decreases in price.
Wizards wouldn't make a post like that which fuels the rumors unless there were some truth to it.
And then face an even bigger *****storm of people claiming WOTC doesn't care about the rumors and the effects they are having on the community?
At this point WOTC is very much in a damned if they do/damned if they don't situation about this issue. Regardless of how they act there is going to be some portion of the fanbase clamouring over this. What they have done is taken the only sensible out that they had. Post a very dry article acknowledging the existence of the rumours and outline the process that they are undertaking to investigate their veracity. Nothing more.
If some one reads that article and comes away from it thinking that WOTC have admitted to the existence of some shadowy cabal secretly running the secondary market with insider information, I have a wonderful Tower that needs to be dismalted and sold for scrap.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
My biggest issue with this is, whatever Vendor(s), retailers or online stores that MAY have had access early to a list like this (if it existed), the largest ones will not get anything but a slap on the wrist. If WOTC wants to make an example, they will use a smaller one that can't actually hurt their profits to cause Hasbro/Shareholders to become involved/concerned.
An interesting parallel to "too big to fail," isn't it?
That said, I don't think SCG makes up as much of Wizards' sales as you're implying. They're one of the biggest stores, sure, but Wizards sells to game stores all around the world, as well as to big box stores like Wal-Mart. If SCG (or CFB or whatever) were to get caught doing something illicit, their business is significant, but ultimately probably not material enough to Wizards' business operations to merit special treatment for something like this. SCG does seem to be innocent here, though, so it's not really something to worry about right now.
Yesterday @Vendorleak admitted he had been fooled, posted a bunch of confusing screenshots and threatened legal action against backstabbing traitors, then deleted his twitter account. Figured I should mention it here.
Conspiracy 2 confirmed?!?!?!
Leaves a lot of questions unanswered... so he was wrong about EMA list being for sale and I guess he just forgot about all the other accusations he leveled about drug money, sketchy business practices and previous set leaks. Maybe he was on a bender the last few days and finally came down, maybe all his accusations are invalid in WotC's eyes because he was mistaken about EMA and they asked him to take it down. Its been a wild ride.
I thought it was interesting that he threatened legal action against people when he is almost certainly getting sued for libel very soon.
If it turns out vendors have been getting information ahead of us, then I am out. Just done. Reprints are only one way to ruin a card games value. Another is a tremendous loss of confidence. Market manipulation at the WOTC Level. Not player, not dealer...at the very top, WOTC. The reward was just too large, I guess. If they've been turning a blind eye to this ***** (if it turns out to be true) but bring the hammer down on a couple of judges for leaking some cards...**** WOTC. This has been a thumb on the scale for Pro "Teams" (access to cardpools early, build early, test early) and large shop buyers (dump reprints, buy non-reprints) and I am not going to buy into a rigged game like that.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/statement-about-eternal-masters-card-list-2016-02-16
Wizard's answers. They'd better take some ****ers to court over this one.
Here is why this is a big deal. Part of the reason why Magic is so popular is the Magic Economy. You buy, sell and trade cards that are actually worth money because of limited print runs and their relative power. This is such an important part of Magic, they've enshrined their own effort to protect it in the Reserved List. Maybe the Reserved List isn't so relevant now besides keeping Legacy back, but back then it was a huge deal. It was a solemn vow to protect the collector as well as the gamer. Now you have this ***** show. If it turns out people have been REALLY gaming the system, then the system is broken and people lose faith. People like me. Once people lose faith, there goes the gravy train. WOTC has to restore faith and do so quickly, or the economy will fall apart.
This is assuming this is more than one small time vendor. Even then, I would expect more public punishment than the Judges as they're not just protecting Marketing now - they're protecting the whole Magic system.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
Check the twitter link it goes to
https://twitter.com/Vendorleak
This same user did NOT predict the Modern bans correctly. He said Amulet of Vigor and Splinter Twin were getting banned. Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin got banned instead. Again, people on MTGS threw around the idea of a Twin ban from time to time, although it was not the most popular suggestion and was usually dismissed.
This Vendorleak guy also has not posted any proof of his accusations. SCG or CFB did not put Twin on sale or take Twin off its buylist before the ban. He needs some serious evidence, something like a timestamped Skype call of Ben Bleiweiss talking with the informant about an upcoming set. I would believe him if he posted that.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Actually, SCG did take Twin and Bloom off the buylist prior to the ban being officially announced (heard about it on an LSV stream).
Also, SCG a few years back were buying up Zendikar fetches left and right, and then a week later Wizards announced Modern as an eternal format.
The whole rares and mythics list for Eternal Masters has been allegedly leaked as well. Almost all the cards the reddit guy said would be there, are there. Not to mention that the whole "some vendor has a complete EMA set up for sale" has been confirmed by another party.
The point is, even if this reddit guy isn't 100% reliable, he's been fairly consistent with his predictions. And the Vendorleak guy, at the very least, is just saying what we all have been thinking.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
Art is life itself.
If I was a operation half the size of SCG, my number one goal would be to send a trusted informer into the card production pipeline (print shop, WOTC, distributors w/e).
Well, to be fair there was the unintentional MTGO beta "leak" that showed that the cards were going to be banned, so I don't think we can draw too much from SCG pulling them off the buy list if it was after the MTGO beta. I can't speak to the rest.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Okay, nobody tell Quacker about the official spoilers during the lead up to each set.
Actually isn't giving vendors information before users pretty much standard practice in everything? That's how third party products are able to roll out in time with the release of new consoles, for instance.
What exactly does WOTC get out of this supposed deal?
Can you prove this, or are you just going off of Twitch chat (of all things)? Please provide evidence: your post is potentially libelous.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/statement-about-eternal-masters-card-list-2016-02-16
That suggests otherwise.
It appears that an as-yet unknown dealer that is NOT starcitygames knew a fair bit about EMA at least 2 weeks before the Twin ban, possibly by bribing someone with Wizards wickR access.
It is being rumored that someone is selling the set list for USD 25000.
A very reliable source has indicated that they are suspicious of Aether Games but no proof has been offered.
Edit: Oh and on SCG's buylist and Twin: as far as I can tell SCG responded to the MTGO beta leak and not before.
Once the bans went live on the beta (about 48 hours before they should have been published) they were very much in the public eye.
Like them or hate them, SCG look innocent in all of this.
No it doesn't. All it says is that WOTC is aware of the ***** storm and is looking into it and will comment more once their internal investigations have concluded.
It does not confirm that there is a copy of the Eternal masters card list loose in the wild and going to the highest bidder. There is still a lot of room for this to turn into a massive pile of bull*****.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Cash cows be cash cows.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
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Wizards wouldn't make a post like that which fuels the rumors unless there were some truth to it.
No idea how much of the sealed product market the big retailers and vendors have (for new sets)...but I don't see WOTC saying "sorry, you are banned from product." They'll pick a guilty party who's buying power can't affect profits. It will be interesting to see in the coming days if certain legacy cards start being bought by retailers at a better price, and which cards start to see significant decreases in price.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
And then face an even bigger *****storm of people claiming WOTC doesn't care about the rumors and the effects they are having on the community?
At this point WOTC is very much in a damned if they do/damned if they don't situation about this issue. Regardless of how they act there is going to be some portion of the fanbase clamouring over this. What they have done is taken the only sensible out that they had. Post a very dry article acknowledging the existence of the rumours and outline the process that they are undertaking to investigate their veracity. Nothing more.
If some one reads that article and comes away from it thinking that WOTC have admitted to the existence of some shadowy cabal secretly running the secondary market with insider information, I have a wonderful Tower that needs to be dismalted and sold for scrap.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
An interesting parallel to "too big to fail," isn't it?
That said, I don't think SCG makes up as much of Wizards' sales as you're implying. They're one of the biggest stores, sure, but Wizards sells to game stores all around the world, as well as to big box stores like Wal-Mart. If SCG (or CFB or whatever) were to get caught doing something illicit, their business is significant, but ultimately probably not material enough to Wizards' business operations to merit special treatment for something like this. SCG does seem to be innocent here, though, so it's not really something to worry about right now.
Conspiracy 2 confirmed?!?!?!
Leaves a lot of questions unanswered... so he was wrong about EMA list being for sale and I guess he just forgot about all the other accusations he leveled about drug money, sketchy business practices and previous set leaks. Maybe he was on a bender the last few days and finally came down, maybe all his accusations are invalid in WotC's eyes because he was mistaken about EMA and they asked him to take it down. Its been a wild ride.
I thought it was interesting that he threatened legal action against people when he is almost certainly getting sued for libel very soon.
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/46dt5o/in_light_of_recent_events/
All three of his explanations sound plausible. Especially Japan, where half the entertainment industry is a money laundering operation for the Yakuza.