I have heard that the current cost of Standard is reducing the attendance at several LGSs. So let me post these questions to you:
1) Is the Standard environment at your LGS affected by the high prices of cards??
2) How is your LGS affected?
3) What are your feelings regarding the current Standard, Tarkir/Zendikar?
2) the effect has been magic going off a cliff with a ton of our already limited player pool jumping over to Force of Will. I don't play, but from the guys I know, their prize cards for their equivalent of FNM is their equivalent of a full art foil Gideon.
One guy has the expensive meta decks in Magic and, beat him or not, most of the players don't like feeling they are second class players.
Whereas, from what I have seen, FoW loves their players. Packs are fun to crack with good cards, prize support is real (magic SUCKS in comparison), and everyone feels like they are part of the game and not just paupers.
3) I am not feeling optimistic about the direction of the game. WotC is responding to the market they exist in. They are increasingly designing sets that are top heavy to increase the number of packs the big secondary market has to crack to fill orders. Unfortunately, that leaves us players getting the shaft. But, as long as there are enough players willing to buy $50 or more for their cards, this will continue.
3)Boring and way too expensive.My country is having ecconomical problems making things harder for who plays this game.Is weird when standard deck prices are comparable to modern decks.What you rather have?Invest in standard deck that will rotate in a year and half or invest in modern/commander where your cards don't lose value(unless banned) and won't be useless.
1) There's been some fall-off in Standard, yes. But it still fires. My LGS is a long-established shop in a rich neighborhood, so high roller players are the rule no matter what.
2) My shop runs so many formats that it barely notices. I need a crowbar to get into the shop on Modern night.
3) Khans block and Origins are sensational blocks; BFZ is a notorious dog. I chalk it up to one of those stumbles that WotC takes once in awhile. BFZ is more symptomatic of the great release schedule shift more than anything else, I think. OOG is showing promise so far.
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1) Yes.
2) Attendance is dropping, so much so that Standard has failed to fire twice since BFZ launched.
3) I feel that even costs aside, the meta is extremely stale, filled with unidentifiable four color good stuff decks. A few creatures rule the entire format while spells are getting systematically worse and worse. Removal is incredibly narrow and forces you to run 1-ofs and 2ofs of several different kinds, and just hope you draw what you need. It's a muddled mess in which you can completely fold to a deck you don't have the specific tools to fight. And worst of all, BFZ added nothing new and fresh to the format, so it's nothing but a "Greatest Hits of Khans" album, for the second year in a row. I have given up on Standard indefinitely and am focusing on Modern.
I have heard that the current cost of Standard is reducing the attendance at several LGSs. So let me post these questions to you:
1) Is the Standard environment at your LGS affected by the high prices of cards??
2) How is your LGS affected?
3) What are your feelings regarding the current Standard, Tarkir/Zendikar?
1) If you mean card quality/$, yes since nobody buys standard stuff.
2) Nobody plays limited or standard anymore.
3) Very slow, underpowered and uninteresting. The game has degenerated into goodstuff.dec where the wallet size speaks louder than strategy.
Standard is far from dead, but since rotation it's dropped a third, at least, and limited even more so. Theros/Khans was the biggest Standard I saw in terms of numbers, so the shrinkage is pretty noticeable.
I am proud that Standard is dying/has died at our LGS. Our first Modern pptq= 50 players. Our Standard one was 12. Our std WMCQ<20, and most from outside the city. Our LGS wanted to get Modern but could not get it sadly.
I am delighted to have played a part in the death of Standard where I am. Its pretty simple how we did it. I invested in Modern when it came out, heavily selling out of Standard and investing cash in old cheap booster boxes of stuff like NPH, TS, Lorwyn etc. When my K ranking is replaced by consumption based PWPs I have nothing to play for anymore- thanks Wizards- and thus can quit Standard and focus on making money, which travelling to big events never/rarely does. I watch as the price of Modern increases. I sell shocks to buy in cheap fetches, and encourage others to follow my lead. Some do, some don't. Shocks get reprinted, money train for me as I buy them back at 1/3 value I sold them for. Play the market, sell the boxes, and sell every Std card I win in draft at its zenith as I don't play Standard. Invest in Modern and Legacy. Result...I have 30 plus Modern decks to loan (I have no interest in playing the top tier decks myself unless I enjoy the deck), and a bunch of Legacy decks to boot. Convince friendly LGS owner to rotate FNMS, and hey presto, who knew- the dedicated Standard players, splashing out the cash having been sold the dream of the pro-tour by the big company websites (all getting pros to write articles to sell cards), all leave to play the latest fad (quelle surprise), and new players get introduced to Modern and Legacy. The Modern/Legacy events are successful, friendly and anyone can borrow whatever they like and thus it costs them nothing other than entry fee. Others also invest in Legacy, and the net result.....few standard players. LGS owner is happy as commander is the no 1 format anyway and FNM prizes are in the latest set, plus regular events happen. People who turn up with Std decks rapidly never go back having tried the older formats. All they need to see is the previous generation of Std players quitting and selling their hard earned collections for next to nothing to see that being in Std is a mugs game.
1) My local store is full of spikes who play Tier 1 standard still, Standard hasn't really been affected at all, the only regular player they lost to Modern was me. That shop however can barely get a weekly modern tournament to fire (lot of weeks it doesnt) so im driving 40 min south to the next shop with a real modern playerbase.
2) they seem to be doing alright.
3) boring underpowered Id probably get into FoW before I got into standard again. Modern is more better imo
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Decks
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1. Yes, standard wasn't super ripe at my LGS to begin with, however draft and modern have picked up a ton of popularity where I am, with draft often drawing 20-30 people and modern going from often not launching to drawing 8-12 people per week.
2. More and more people are leaving standard and as such, the meta has gone to *****, with it being primarily little kids with terrible budget decks. The only people over the age of 11 who still play standard are either doing it because it's an easy 4-0 cash in, they're oblivious to the meta, or they just don't care.
3. It's ******* crap. Like I have preferred modern for a while now, but I think the current state of standard is truly terrible for the game, as it's driving away people from the "starter format" in droves, due to simultaneously being unfun and overpriced.
IF standard were competitively priced|
one would not have to buy ones way in
Huh? As I understand it, regardless of Standard being competitively priced or not, one still has to buy ones way in.
Can you explain 'what does one do if Standard is competitively priced?' Free mtg cards? Rags to riches?
Most of the problem with Standard is the tango lands. Well, not them in and of themselves, but them being around with the fetchlands. The tango lands co-existing with the fetchlands results in two problems:
1) Increased cost. Before there was little reason to play with fetchlands that were off-color (i.e. one of their colors is a color you're not playing). Now there is, so you play more copies of them.
2) Because the mana fixing is so good with no punishment (no Blood Moon or even Burning Earth/Tectonic Edge), the decks mostly are just a bunch of goodstuff that don't really feel particularly different, and thus they blur together and become boring.
If we didn't have the tango lands in Standard, the decks wouldn't be as expensive and the decks would probably feel more distinct and the format more interesting.
Speaking of which, the other big source of something being expensive, Jace, has the problem of there being no counterbalance due to the lack of any good graveyard hate. If we had something like Scrabbling Claws (Relic of Progenitus might be tricky due to the flavor issue but I guess it could've been in Magic Origins), he wouldn't be as obscenely expensive because there'd be better ways to handle him.
I don't like current standard. Apparently I'm not alone; standard events haven't been firing at my LGS and draft has dropped. We used to get 15-20, now it's like 6 and enthusiasm is still waning.
The 2 worst things WOTC did to mangle standard, IMO, were creating mythic rarity (making staples expensive) and shortening rotation time (which SHOULD drop prices but hasn't and has the effect of reducing the card pool, stifling brewing, and making expensive standard cards worthless faster).
Add to that the fact that most of the good lands are rares....
Imagine if they would have changed the block structure, but kept the 2 yr standard shelf life on cards? So, we'd have Theros, Khans, and Battle blocks as well as 2 core sets right now. Brewers would have more options and support, more cards would be played which would spread the costs out, and your Theros/M15 cards would still have value.
In short, **** WOTC for milking players and giving them less. I wouldn't be shocked if they saw players moving to modern and decided to **** up modern to drive them back to standard.
I don't like current standard. Apparently I'm not alone; standard events haven't been firing at my LGS and draft has dropped. We used to get 15-20, now it's like 6 and enthusiasm is still waning.
The 2 worst things WOTC did to mangle standard, IMO, were creating mythic rarity (making staples expensive) and shortening rotation time (which SHOULD drop prices but hasn't and has the effect of reducing the card pool, stifling brewing, and making expensive standard cards worthless faster).
Add to that the fact that most of the good lands are rares....
Imagine if they would have changed the block structure, but kept the 2 yr standard shelf life on cards? So, we'd have Theros, Khans, and Battle blocks as well as 2 core sets right now. Brewers would have more options and support, more cards would be played which would spread the costs out, and your Theros/M15 cards would still have value.
In short, **** WOTC for milking players and giving them less. I wouldn't be shocked if they saw players moving to modern and decided to **** up modern to drive them back to standard.
Your idea for 2 yr standard would only extend the period of Tango-Fetches. And more options doesn't mean much, there will be a clearly preferred card. And Theros would still have rotated anyways.
The probability of getting any individual Mythic Rare is approximately the same as the probability of getting any individual old rare. I would say the problem is that some cards were upgraded to mythics instead of being slightly nerfed. For example Deathmist Raptor, Whisperwood Elemental, Wingmate Roc, etc.
1. Doesn't seem to be, had 30 for a standard tourny yesterday.
2.
three cases:
If thier stardard deck rotated they are investing in some of the lower tier modern decks which is a similar price.
If they are a new player/newly compedative player they are playing BFZ block contructed almost.
Or they are people like me, and there is quite a bunch of us, that already had full Esper or Abzan or Jeskai decks preroation. only small investment to update.
3. Jace is stupidly expensive, BFZ is too weak compared to Khans. It's boring for the deck builder and too expensive to change decks so I have little interest. I only turn up if there is a nice prize available.
I don't like current standard. Apparently I'm not alone; standard events haven't been firing at my LGS and draft has dropped. We used to get 15-20, now it's like 6 and enthusiasm is still waning.
The 2 worst things WOTC did to mangle standard, IMO, were creating mythic rarity (making staples expensive) and shortening rotation time (which SHOULD drop prices but hasn't and has the effect of reducing the card pool, stifling brewing, and making expensive standard cards worthless faster).
Neither of those things are the issue. Mythic rares have been around for years and years, so it's rather odd to claim that it's only now ruining Standard. One can perhaps argue that they're developing a bad habit of putting more and more tournament-calibur cards at that rarity, but that's a separate matter.
As for the shortening of rotation time, that has nothing to do with the issue of the tangolands being simultaneously legal with the fetchlands with basically no nonbasic land hate, an idea so obviously bad it's rather astounding they went through with it. I guess bringing back the allied manlands was off the table because it'd just highlight how much the enemy manlands suck in comparison. At any rate, a lengthier rotation time would only prolong the issue.
Add to that the fact that most of the good lands are rares....
I think Standard is grossly misrepresented when referred to as a format for newer players. It is not, and WotC has reminded us that once again with the recent changes to Standard rotation, which made the format even less newbie-friendly. Here I'm talking about cards rotating out faster and rotations happening more often (it has nothing to do with the incidentally inflated prices of the current Standard though as it applies to basically any Standard environment to come, $500 decks or not). Rotation is a rather frustrating event for a newish player who is basically told that a huge chunk of their cards are rendered useless, in fact many players leave Standard after their first rotation, some switch to other formats, some stop playing altogether. So the solution implemented by Wizards is to increase the number of these frustrating events. It leads me to believe that WotC perceive Standard as a forefront of competitive Magic, and is therefore catering to pros and wannabe pros when shaping the format. Wanna play with these shiny Shivan Dragons you've just opened in a booster? Nah, Standard isn't a place for you.
My LGS is an indication of this. The players who still care about Standard do so only because of the number of competitive events available. Everyone else switched to Modern.
Most of the standard players have jumped ship to play in the CMD and Modern events. Standard has degraded into a small group of the same money people playing netdecks against each other. Standard just doesn't feel engaging right now. Hopefully Shadows over Innistrad changes this, because oath of Gatewatch certainly doesn't appear to be shaping up that way.
I have heard that the current cost of Standard is reducing the attendance at several LGSs. So let me post these questions to you:
1) Is the Standard environment at your LGS affected by the high prices of cards??
2) How is your LGS affected?
3) What are your feelings regarding the current Standard, Tarkir/Zendikar?
1, Yes, Standard attendance has dropped to the point where Std. Events have stopped firing.
2, See question 1.
3, It's not just expensive but also boring. No wonder people have stopped playing.
I really think the lesson to take away for WotC is to stop treating Standard as the, well "Standard-format" that you play when you get into the game. It's just not well suited for that, in particular with the short rotation-time they have imposed on it. They should care more about Modern and Limited and let Standard be the sideshow resulting from that (of course they should still try to make a balanced standard environment). In particular that means having no expensive "four-of Standard-only-mythics" like Deathmist Raptor. The cards that are expensive in Standard should be the ones that are also playable in Modern, the "Standard-only" cards should be cheap.
I wasn't affected that bad by the jump in standard prices this season as I already had my fetches and picked up my jaces I think when they were 50ish and not like 80
I feel that there is enough of a variety in what formats stores offer that what people were playing that attendance around here hasn't dropped all that much.
I mean people love modern and our modern events bring in a lot of people and the last standard PPTQs we had around here were right after rotation so its hard to tell if attendance for big events has dropped
OGW set is not that bad.
Other than the early spoiler incident, this spoiler season is similar to any other.
Even with the right cards, are the community ready to embrace Standard again?
I think that there will always be people who play standard due to the fact that it's the format that's easiest for new players to play since standard cards are easiest to get
there's also spikes who just like playing competitive magic and most high level magic is standard
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1) Is the Standard environment at your LGS affected by the high prices of cards??
2) How is your LGS affected?
3) What are your feelings regarding the current Standard, Tarkir/Zendikar?
2) everyone plays casual/modern
3) represents how much wotc cares about players
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
2) the effect has been magic going off a cliff with a ton of our already limited player pool jumping over to Force of Will. I don't play, but from the guys I know, their prize cards for their equivalent of FNM is their equivalent of a full art foil Gideon.
One guy has the expensive meta decks in Magic and, beat him or not, most of the players don't like feeling they are second class players.
Whereas, from what I have seen, FoW loves their players. Packs are fun to crack with good cards, prize support is real (magic SUCKS in comparison), and everyone feels like they are part of the game and not just paupers.
3) I am not feeling optimistic about the direction of the game. WotC is responding to the market they exist in. They are increasingly designing sets that are top heavy to increase the number of packs the big secondary market has to crack to fill orders. Unfortunately, that leaves us players getting the shaft. But, as long as there are enough players willing to buy $50 or more for their cards, this will continue.
2)Casual and Commander + Yu-Gi-oh helps my LGS
3)Boring and way too expensive.My country is having ecconomical problems making things harder for who plays this game.Is weird when standard deck prices are comparable to modern decks.What you rather have?Invest in standard deck that will rotate in a year and half or invest in modern/commander where your cards don't lose value(unless banned) and won't be useless.
2) My shop runs so many formats that it barely notices. I need a crowbar to get into the shop on Modern night.
3) Khans block and Origins are sensational blocks; BFZ is a notorious dog. I chalk it up to one of those stumbles that WotC takes once in awhile. BFZ is more symptomatic of the great release schedule shift more than anything else, I think. OOG is showing promise so far.
2) Attendance is dropping, so much so that Standard has failed to fire twice since BFZ launched.
3) I feel that even costs aside, the meta is extremely stale, filled with unidentifiable four color good stuff decks. A few creatures rule the entire format while spells are getting systematically worse and worse. Removal is incredibly narrow and forces you to run 1-ofs and 2ofs of several different kinds, and just hope you draw what you need. It's a muddled mess in which you can completely fold to a deck you don't have the specific tools to fight. And worst of all, BFZ added nothing new and fresh to the format, so it's nothing but a "Greatest Hits of Khans" album, for the second year in a row. I have given up on Standard indefinitely and am focusing on Modern.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
1) If you mean card quality/$, yes since nobody buys standard stuff.
2) Nobody plays limited or standard anymore.
3) Very slow, underpowered and uninteresting. The game has degenerated into goodstuff.dec where the wallet size speaks louder than strategy.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
Standard is far from dead, but since rotation it's dropped a third, at least, and limited even more so. Theros/Khans was the biggest Standard I saw in terms of numbers, so the shrinkage is pretty noticeable.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
I am delighted to have played a part in the death of Standard where I am. Its pretty simple how we did it. I invested in Modern when it came out, heavily selling out of Standard and investing cash in old cheap booster boxes of stuff like NPH, TS, Lorwyn etc. When my K ranking is replaced by consumption based PWPs I have nothing to play for anymore- thanks Wizards- and thus can quit Standard and focus on making money, which travelling to big events never/rarely does. I watch as the price of Modern increases. I sell shocks to buy in cheap fetches, and encourage others to follow my lead. Some do, some don't. Shocks get reprinted, money train for me as I buy them back at 1/3 value I sold them for. Play the market, sell the boxes, and sell every Std card I win in draft at its zenith as I don't play Standard. Invest in Modern and Legacy. Result...I have 30 plus Modern decks to loan (I have no interest in playing the top tier decks myself unless I enjoy the deck), and a bunch of Legacy decks to boot. Convince friendly LGS owner to rotate FNMS, and hey presto, who knew- the dedicated Standard players, splashing out the cash having been sold the dream of the pro-tour by the big company websites (all getting pros to write articles to sell cards), all leave to play the latest fad (quelle surprise), and new players get introduced to Modern and Legacy. The Modern/Legacy events are successful, friendly and anyone can borrow whatever they like and thus it costs them nothing other than entry fee. Others also invest in Legacy, and the net result.....few standard players. LGS owner is happy as commander is the no 1 format anyway and FNM prizes are in the latest set, plus regular events happen. People who turn up with Std decks rapidly never go back having tried the older formats. All they need to see is the previous generation of Std players quitting and selling their hard earned collections for next to nothing to see that being in Std is a mugs game.
2) they seem to be doing alright.
3) boring underpowered Id probably get into FoW before I got into standard again. Modern is more better imo
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
2. More and more people are leaving standard and as such, the meta has gone to *****, with it being primarily little kids with terrible budget decks. The only people over the age of 11 who still play standard are either doing it because it's an easy 4-0 cash in, they're oblivious to the meta, or they just don't care.
3. It's ******* crap. Like I have preferred modern for a while now, but I think the current state of standard is truly terrible for the game, as it's driving away people from the "starter format" in droves, due to simultaneously being unfun and overpriced.
Modern
UBR Grixis Control
U Merfolk
Pauper
U Mono U Delver
Ancestral Visions is freed
one would not have to buy ones way in
Huh? As I understand it, regardless of Standard being competitively priced or not, one still has to buy ones way in.
Can you explain 'what does one do if Standard is competitively priced?' Free mtg cards? Rags to riches?
1) Increased cost. Before there was little reason to play with fetchlands that were off-color (i.e. one of their colors is a color you're not playing). Now there is, so you play more copies of them.
2) Because the mana fixing is so good with no punishment (no Blood Moon or even Burning Earth/Tectonic Edge), the decks mostly are just a bunch of goodstuff that don't really feel particularly different, and thus they blur together and become boring.
If we didn't have the tango lands in Standard, the decks wouldn't be as expensive and the decks would probably feel more distinct and the format more interesting.
Speaking of which, the other big source of something being expensive, Jace, has the problem of there being no counterbalance due to the lack of any good graveyard hate. If we had something like Scrabbling Claws (Relic of Progenitus might be tricky due to the flavor issue but I guess it could've been in Magic Origins), he wouldn't be as obscenely expensive because there'd be better ways to handle him.
the game becomes less competitive from a deck building standpoint
The 2 worst things WOTC did to mangle standard, IMO, were creating mythic rarity (making staples expensive) and shortening rotation time (which SHOULD drop prices but hasn't and has the effect of reducing the card pool, stifling brewing, and making expensive standard cards worthless faster).
Add to that the fact that most of the good lands are rares....
Imagine if they would have changed the block structure, but kept the 2 yr standard shelf life on cards? So, we'd have Theros, Khans, and Battle blocks as well as 2 core sets right now. Brewers would have more options and support, more cards would be played which would spread the costs out, and your Theros/M15 cards would still have value.
In short, **** WOTC for milking players and giving them less. I wouldn't be shocked if they saw players moving to modern and decided to **** up modern to drive them back to standard.
Your idea for 2 yr standard would only extend the period of Tango-Fetches. And more options doesn't mean much, there will be a clearly preferred card. And Theros would still have rotated anyways.
The probability of getting any individual Mythic Rare is approximately the same as the probability of getting any individual old rare. I would say the problem is that some cards were upgraded to mythics instead of being slightly nerfed. For example Deathmist Raptor, Whisperwood Elemental, Wingmate Roc, etc.
2.
three cases:
If thier stardard deck rotated they are investing in some of the lower tier modern decks which is a similar price.
If they are a new player/newly compedative player they are playing BFZ block contructed almost.
Or they are people like me, and there is quite a bunch of us, that already had full Esper or Abzan or Jeskai decks preroation. only small investment to update.
3. Jace is stupidly expensive, BFZ is too weak compared to Khans. It's boring for the deck builder and too expensive to change decks so I have little interest. I only turn up if there is a nice prize available.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
As for the shortening of rotation time, that has nothing to do with the issue of the tangolands being simultaneously legal with the fetchlands with basically no nonbasic land hate, an idea so obviously bad it's rather astounding they went through with it. I guess bringing back the allied manlands was off the table because it'd just highlight how much the enemy manlands suck in comparison. At any rate, a lengthier rotation time would only prolong the issue.
As has been true for at least 5 years.
My LGS is an indication of this. The players who still care about Standard do so only because of the number of competitive events available. Everyone else switched to Modern.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
1, Yes, Standard attendance has dropped to the point where Std. Events have stopped firing.
2, See question 1.
3, It's not just expensive but also boring. No wonder people have stopped playing.
I really think the lesson to take away for WotC is to stop treating Standard as the, well "Standard-format" that you play when you get into the game. It's just not well suited for that, in particular with the short rotation-time they have imposed on it. They should care more about Modern and Limited and let Standard be the sideshow resulting from that (of course they should still try to make a balanced standard environment). In particular that means having no expensive "four-of Standard-only-mythics" like Deathmist Raptor. The cards that are expensive in Standard should be the ones that are also playable in Modern, the "Standard-only" cards should be cheap.
I feel that there is enough of a variety in what formats stores offer that what people were playing that attendance around here hasn't dropped all that much.
I mean people love modern and our modern events bring in a lot of people and the last standard PPTQs we had around here were right after rotation so its hard to tell if attendance for big events has dropped
Other than the early spoiler incident, this spoiler season is similar to any other.
Even with the right cards, are the community ready to embrace Standard again?
I think that there will always be people who play standard due to the fact that it's the format that's easiest for new players to play since standard cards are easiest to get
there's also spikes who just like playing competitive magic and most high level magic is standard