I would laugh but if the players can be abused as such and easily silenced with cards (that aren't even worth it), then this is a sad situation they're inviting upon themselves.
Comparing the practices of a private business, to a public court of law is pretty much the dumbest thing you can do in this situation.
Wizards doesnt have to let you play in their tournaments, and they are well within their right to ban whoever they want from doing so for whatever reason they want to do it. Playing in a sanctioned tournament is not a right.
I don't think many people are arguing what WoTC can do but rather what they should have done.
They can do whatever they want in terms of DCI bannings, but doing so is not without consequences (e.g. the existence of their business).
I find they way they handled the situation be illogical and heavy-handed, and I'm willing to let my wallet do the talking about how I feel about it.
Strong arming people for sharing something on social media is a big problwm. If that is the stance WotC is going to take it is destined to fail. Just as a player I see a lot of fake cards shared every day. I can image how much Roberto gets sent to him. I listen to a lot of MTG podcast. Between going after MTG GOLDFISH and content creators WotC you are on the wrong side of this issue. You should be kissing Roberto's ass. You say this group has had access to spoilers since March 2015 (that you are aware of). If it wasn't for Reberto's help you would have never discovered the source. He could have told you to go to he'll for the way approached him about it. You are lucky this was a pro player and cared about his DCI number. This could have blown up in your face.
I don't care what WotC tells me that it hurts sales. They can say whatever they want....show me the numbers. Not willing to do that, fine. I'm not willing to believe you. NPH showed me much different. We had the god book before the first spoilers ran. Cannot count the number of cases I bought. Opened every one of them for 2nd market sell. Having the god book allowed me to determine if I wanted to invest in a set.
Where this all falls apart is when WotC makes a smitty set like BFZ. If that set did not have the expeditions it would have been one of their biggest failures for a set.
Looking at this WotC makes it's money off limited and the impulse buyer. Tournament play doesn't make them a dime. I see in no way does a spoiler effect either of those type of players. Want to make money? How about not making a set based on 2 headed giant. After you have already removed 2 headed giant from MTGO because it was the least played format.
This is more about feelings getting hurt than finacial. A lot of work goes into making a set. Having that work undone by unofficial spoilers is sad for the content creator and design team. If they had used this angle instead of "it hurts sales" players would have been empathedic. Strong arm tactics and spin doctors what we got instead.
Are you actually claiming that NPH sold well just because you bought a lot of it?
is it fair to blame the godbook leak for poor nph sales though? seems like its just a convenient scapegoat. most of the things they blame for poor sales in recent memory seem like scapegoats that get around the real reasons. like poor design, or bad flavor, or what have you.
is it fair to blame the godbook leak for poor nph sales though? seems like its just a convenient scapegoat. most of the things they blame for poor sales in recent memory seem like scapegoats that get around the real reasons. like poor design, or bad flavor, or what have you.
One of the first lessons you learn during your orientation at WOTC is the coveted finger pointing technique in which you are taught how to point at everyone and everything else for your shortcomings.
NPH was a weak set, BFZ was a weak set, and OGW looks to be another weak set. You just watch, if sales end up bad, they will cry up and down that it was the fault of the dastardly leakers!
Well, who do you suggest should pay them instead? Remember, that includes price money for gp´s and pro tours as well. If you want to seperate them, and make them (financally) independent from wizards, the cost to play competitivly will rise for sure.
StarCityGames has been given exclusive spoilers before - if you don't want people using inside information to buy up synergistic cards to sell at a profit later, why would somebody whose business model revolves around buying up cards to sell at a profit later ever be the first person you tell?
Can you give proof to that, please? a source, maybe?
SCG Is given exclusive spoilers all the time. They knew Chord of Calling was being reprinted in M15 before anyone else.
is it fair to blame the godbook leak for poor nph sales though? seems like its just a convenient scapegoat. most of the things they blame for poor sales in recent memory seem like scapegoats that get around the real reasons. like poor design, or bad flavor, or what have you.
One of the first lessons you learn during your orientation at WOTC is the coveted finger pointing technique in which you are taught how to point at everyone and everything else for your shortcomings.
NPH was a weak set, BFZ was a weak set, and OGW looks to be another weak set. You just watch, if sales end up bad, they will cry up and down that it was the fault of the dastardly leakers!
NPH was a weak set? It had the best commons and uncommons I've ever seen and no set came close before or since.
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"Listen closely as your radio plays
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
is it fair to blame the godbook leak for poor nph sales though? seems like its just a convenient scapegoat. most of the things they blame for poor sales in recent memory seem like scapegoats that get around the real reasons. like poor design, or bad flavor, or what have you.
One of the first lessons you learn during your orientation at WOTC is the coveted finger pointing technique in which you are taught how to point at everyone and everything else for your shortcomings.
NPH was a weak set, BFZ was a weak set, and OGW looks to be another weak set. You just watch, if sales end up bad, they will cry up and down that it was the fault of the dastardly leakers!
New Phyrexia was a weak set all right... if you ignore Apostle's Blessing, Batterskull, Beast Within, Birthing Pod, Blade Splicer, Blighted Agent, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Tangle, Deceiver Exarch, Dismember, Geth's Verdict, Gitaxian Probe, Glistener Elf, Gut Shot, Karn Liberated, Melira, Mental Misstep, Mutagenic Growth, Noxious Revival, Phyrexian Metamorph, Phyrexian Obliterator, Phyrexian Unlife, Puresteel Paladin, Slash Panther, Spellskite, Surgical Extraction, Sword of War and Peace, Torpor Orb, Vapor Snag, Vault Skirge, Whipflare, and all five of the Praetors.
All this time, I thought they had leaked Kozilek and the other colorless cards on purpose to counteract the enduring malaise of BfZ era and get people exciting for something big forthcoming. And frankly, I thought that was pretty intelligent, since I was completely indifferent to the prospect of more new product until I saw them. The heavy-handed response is very amateurish and cowardly, like a pathetic kid brandishing a gun to show "how tough he is." And I'm not sympathetic to any disruption this may have had on marketing. The fundamental purpose of marketing is to deceive consumers into doing something against their own self-interest. Why would any of us shed a tear?
All this time, I thought they had leaked Kozilek and the other colorless cards on purpose to counteract the enduring malaise of BfZ era and get people exciting for something big forthcoming. And frankly, I thought that was pretty intelligent, since I was completely indifferent to the prospect of more new product until I saw them. The heavy-handed response is very amateurish and cowardly, like a pathetic kid brandishing a gun to show "how tough he is." And I'm not sympathetic to any disruption this may have had on marketing. The fundamental purpose of marketing is to deceive consumers into doing something against their own self-interest. Why would any of us shed a tear?
This is the part that kinda gets to me. For weeks, people were complaining about BfZ and abandoning standard (at my place anyways) in lieu of modern because it was so weak and then the spoilers come out and everyone including myself kinda got excited and momentarily forgot about the bad set. As it was pointed out in the spoiler threads, I thought too it was a good move: make them speculate! "Look! Shiny Kozilek! OoooooOOOOoooo! New symbol! What is it!?"
However, now it makes them look really weak from several angles: the next set looks weak, they act like angry kids with ban hammers, they have 0 security over their product, they are willing to harm their image and playerbase over hurt feelings, etc.
is it fair to blame the godbook leak for poor nph sales though? seems like its just a convenient scapegoat. most of the things they blame for poor sales in recent memory seem like scapegoats that get around the real reasons. like poor design, or bad flavor, or what have you.
I can't speak for everyone, but I got into Magic with the original Mirrodin block. So when WotC released a set about the Phyrexians literally Dismembering the things I like, I was not happy about that.
Besides, the often heated discussion about Wastes and the "new" mana was definitely a desaster and destructive to the community and therefore bad for sales. So no need to search for earlier occasions to see a problem for sales due to leaks.
Really? Definitely a disaster? It got people talking about the next product, which seems like a good thing from a marketing perspective. How was it a disaster?
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No. A leaked set still selling well doesn't mean the leak had no impact. Leaks impact sales in a negative way. That doesn't mean the set loses money - it just makes less than it would have.
I admit its a possibility but how to prove sales would have been better without leak ?
By using marketing surveys and other information that WotC can't/won't release.
Does that mean you can't independently verify their statements? Yes. So you actually have to trust WotC on this.
Or trust that things like Trade Secrets (which is what this was) are protected in many ways because things like this happen.
leaks can hurt sales but they act as if it was the main reason. If a set is bad/weak it's probably a stronger reason for a failure.
So acting as if leakers are more to be blamed than them is too easy.
Let's say an average set is 100.
A weak set is -20.
A leaked set is -10.
So a weak set is 80.
A leaked weak set is 70.
It doesn't matter that being weak hurt sales. The leak also hurt sales. Even if they admit it was a weak set (which they can't really) it's not relevant. Leaks hurt sales.
Let's say an average set is 100.
A weak set is -20.
A leaked set is -10.
So a weak set is 80.
A leaked weak set is 70.
It doesn't matter that being weak hurt sales. The leak also hurt sales. Even if they admit it was a weak set (which they can't really) it's not relevant. Leaks hurt sales.
If leaks hurt sales so much why is WotC so relaxed with their security??? Why was it that easy to leak 3 cards when the people who leaked them aren't even employees??? Does it hurt sales? It doesn't matter. They are your cards, protect them and don't sulk and throw a tantrum if someone spoiled a few.
Say what you will, if sets are weak, they don't sell well and that's all there is to it. Look at booster boxes prices from earlier sets. You will find exactly that weaker sets (sets that are 90+% subpar garbage) don't sell well and have booster boxes that cost almost nothing. RTR was a great set in terms of power, Dragon Maze wasn't and it reflects in the price.
leaks can hurt sales but they act as if it was the main reason. If a set is bad/weak it's probably a stronger reason for a failure.
So acting as if leakers are more to be blamed than them is too easy.
Let's say an average set is 100.
A weak set is -20.
A leaked set is -10.
So a weak set is 80.
A leaked weak set is 70.
It doesn't matter that being weak hurt sales. The leak also hurt sales. Even if they admit it was a weak set (which they can't really) it's not relevant. Leaks hurt sales.
Where is your proof?
Why do you say a leaked set is negative? A leak is both positive and negative. If the set is awesome people will save up extra money to buy more boxes. The problem for WoTC is a leak has a greater impact on weak sets vs positive sets as people will keep buying product from strong sets but will quickly stop buying weak sets.
I think your numbers should look more like this
A leaked weak set is 70
A leaked strong set is 110
Since they seem to be lowering the power level of cards leaks currently have a greater impact on sales as the newer cards are worse than the cards currently in standard. Who wants to buy boxes when non/very few of the cards will be added to your deck?
I am going to offer the closest to proof for my opinion since WoTC doesn't release sales information.
Commander 2013 had 5 decks. The all star was obviously True Name Nemesis (TNN). The problem was he was 1 per 5 decks. So, while demand was high for that single card demand from stores for the decks was low as they also had to sell the other 4 decks. Many months later, as in this could have been a spoiler earlier than the God Book, WoTC decides to make the decks a 3/2 ratio with 2 decks per case being the TNN deck. This should prove that strong cards sell the product, otherwise why did WoTC change the distribution many months after the product was released? Because they knew players would buy more product with the new ratio of cards since the player base knew the power of the cards. They refused to buy 4 crappy decks to get the one good deck. This shows that it isn't so much the spoilers but the quality of the product that is really impacting sales.
leaks can hurt sales but they act as if it was the main reason. If a set is bad/weak it's probably a stronger reason for a failure.
So acting as if leakers are more to be blamed than them is too easy.
Let's say an average set is 100.
A weak set is -20.
A leaked set is -10.
So a weak set is 80.
A leaked weak set is 70.
It doesn't matter that being weak hurt sales. The leak also hurt sales. Even if they admit it was a weak set (which they can't really) it's not relevant. Leaks hurt sales.
Where is your proof?
Why do you say a leaked set is negative? A leak is both positive and negative. If the set is awesome people will save up extra money to buy more boxes. The problem for WoTC is a leak has a greater impact on weak sets vs positive sets as people will keep buying product from strong sets but will quickly stop buying weak sets.
Where is my proof that leaks hurt sales?
Everywhere. This isn't just about MTG, any time there's a leak about any product in any area of business, sales for that product are lower than expected. It's nost some thing that's specific to Magic cards.
I think your numbers should look more like this
A leaked weak set is 70
A leaked strong set is 110
The specific numbers aren't relevant at all. It was to serve as an example.
Commander 2013 had 5 decks. The all star was obviously True Name Nemesis (TNN). The problem was he was 1 per 5 decks. So, while demand was high for that single card demand from stores for the decks was low as they also had to sell the other 4 decks. Many months later, as in this could have been a spoiler earlier than the God Book, WoTC decides to make the decks a 3/2 ratio with 2 decks per case being the TNN deck. This should prove that strong cards sell the product, otherwise why did WoTC change the distribution many months after the product was released? Because they knew players would buy more product with the new ratio of cards since the player base knew the power of the cards. They refused to buy 4 crappy decks to get the one good deck. This shows that it isn't so much the spoilers but the quality of the product that is really impacting sales.
Well, it's both. TNN was selling not because the deck was strong, but solely because of that one card. That's not a good thing - it's a mistake. They changed the ratio later because they had a lot of the other commander decks that needed to move.
If TNN had been leaker earlier there would've been even fewer preorders/purchases for the other decks.
Let's say an average set is 100.
A weak set is -20.
A leaked set is -10.
So a weak set is 80.
A leaked weak set is 70.
It doesn't matter that being weak hurt sales. The leak also hurt sales. Even if they admit it was a weak set (which they can't really) it's not relevant. Leaks hurt sales.
If leaks hurt sales so much why is WotC so relaxed with their security??? Why was it that easy to leak 3 cards when the people who leaked them aren't even employees??? Does it hurt sales? It doesn't matter. They are your cards, protect them and don't sulk and throw a tantrum if someone spoiled a few.
They did protect them. There were measures in place. You act like anyone could waltz in and take pictures - it was stated that a WotC employee took the pictures and sent them to a friend.
It's not relaxed security, it's someone determined to break the rules. It's not possible to be 100% secure and still have people work for you.
Say what you will, if sets are weak, they don't sell well and that's all there is to it. Look at booster boxes prices from earlier sets. You will find exactly that weaker sets (sets that are 90+% subpar garbage) don't sell well and have booster boxes that cost almost nothing. RTR was a great set in terms of power, Dragon Maze wasn't and it reflects in the price.
I never said weak sets don't hurt sales. If you look, I reflected that in the example I used.
But saying leaks don't have any effect is simply and inarguably incorrect.
I think the argument is that, assuming that leaks do in fact hurt sales (which is contestable so long as there is no objective source for this claim), the power level of the set is a much more relevant factor than early leaks. Technically speaking, you lose weight every time you fart, but you don't see people citing excessive gas for their weight loss results; they cite the most relevant factors in diet and exercise. Similarly, instead of Wizards blaming their failures on leaked cards, it would be much more financially rewarding for them to focus on making sets that aren't weak as hell.
A, Whether Wizards can admit it publicly or not has no bearing on whether it's true.
No, but if that's all you're harping on it'll be literally impossible to convince you otherwise.
If your statement boils down to "I don't believe Wizards." that's fine - but understand that you'll never be satisfied with any outcome.
B, You can't just compare different markets like that; it's apples to oranges. Specs for a new phone won't affect the usability of previous products and/or cause positive/negative changes to older formats.
Phones, new games, music albums - it applies to all industries. I only linked to 3 because I didn't feel like doing your research for you.
Wizards reports that leaks hurt sales in a measurable way. You can choose to believe them (because they have marketing surveys and you and I have anecdotal evidence of that fact) or not (because you don't like Wizards?), but evidence points to it being true, regardless of industry.
Hell, the entire discussion of C on this board alone had a very negative tone throughout. If there wasn't a leak, that would literally never have happened.
Hell, the entire discussion of C on this board alone had a very negative tone throughout. If there wasn't a leak, that would literally never have happened.
Most discussions on this board have a very negative tone. I don't think that it's the fault of the leaks that people on the internet get ... we'll politely say "excited".
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I am eternally grateful to those people who spoiled the cards early. Wizards banned you and treated you like krap, but for me, you are the heroes that gotham needs.
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RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
I don't think many people are arguing what WoTC can do but rather what they should have done.
They can do whatever they want in terms of DCI bannings, but doing so is not without consequences (e.g. the existence of their business).
I find they way they handled the situation be illogical and heavy-handed, and I'm willing to let my wallet do the talking about how I feel about it.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
Are you actually claiming that NPH sold well just because you bought a lot of it?
as a base generating and testing group
this would create a continuous market
as an alliance mtg has made their created worlds default battlefields
but I do not know
One of the first lessons you learn during your orientation at WOTC is the coveted finger pointing technique in which you are taught how to point at everyone and everything else for your shortcomings.
NPH was a weak set, BFZ was a weak set, and OGW looks to be another weak set. You just watch, if sales end up bad, they will cry up and down that it was the fault of the dastardly leakers!
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
SCG Is given exclusive spoilers all the time. They knew Chord of Calling was being reprinted in M15 before anyone else.
Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28820_Magic-2015-Preview-Chord-of-Calling.html
NPH was a weak set? It had the best commons and uncommons I've ever seen and no set came close before or since.
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
However, now it makes them look really weak from several angles: the next set looks weak, they act like angry kids with ban hammers, they have 0 security over their product, they are willing to harm their image and playerbase over hurt feelings, etc.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
I can't speak for everyone, but I got into Magic with the original Mirrodin block. So when WotC released a set about the Phyrexians literally Dismembering the things I like, I was not happy about that.
Really? Definitely a disaster? It got people talking about the next product, which seems like a good thing from a marketing perspective. How was it a disaster?
By using marketing surveys and other information that WotC can't/won't release.
Does that mean you can't independently verify their statements? Yes. So you actually have to trust WotC on this.
Or trust that things like Trade Secrets (which is what this was) are protected in many ways because things like this happen.
This isn't a new concept solely around MTG.
Let's say an average set is 100.
A weak set is -20.
A leaked set is -10.
So a weak set is 80.
A leaked weak set is 70.
It doesn't matter that being weak hurt sales. The leak also hurt sales. Even if they admit it was a weak set (which they can't really) it's not relevant. Leaks hurt sales.
Say what you will, if sets are weak, they don't sell well and that's all there is to it. Look at booster boxes prices from earlier sets. You will find exactly that weaker sets (sets that are 90+% subpar garbage) don't sell well and have booster boxes that cost almost nothing. RTR was a great set in terms of power, Dragon Maze wasn't and it reflects in the price.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
Where is your proof?
Why do you say a leaked set is negative? A leak is both positive and negative. If the set is awesome people will save up extra money to buy more boxes. The problem for WoTC is a leak has a greater impact on weak sets vs positive sets as people will keep buying product from strong sets but will quickly stop buying weak sets.
I think your numbers should look more like this
A leaked weak set is 70
A leaked strong set is 110
Since they seem to be lowering the power level of cards leaks currently have a greater impact on sales as the newer cards are worse than the cards currently in standard. Who wants to buy boxes when non/very few of the cards will be added to your deck?
I am going to offer the closest to proof for my opinion since WoTC doesn't release sales information.
Commander 2013 had 5 decks. The all star was obviously True Name Nemesis (TNN). The problem was he was 1 per 5 decks. So, while demand was high for that single card demand from stores for the decks was low as they also had to sell the other 4 decks. Many months later, as in this could have been a spoiler earlier than the God Book, WoTC decides to make the decks a 3/2 ratio with 2 decks per case being the TNN deck. This should prove that strong cards sell the product, otherwise why did WoTC change the distribution many months after the product was released? Because they knew players would buy more product with the new ratio of cards since the player base knew the power of the cards. They refused to buy 4 crappy decks to get the one good deck. This shows that it isn't so much the spoilers but the quality of the product that is really impacting sales.
Where is my proof that leaks hurt sales?
Everywhere. This isn't just about MTG, any time there's a leak about any product in any area of business, sales for that product are lower than expected. It's nost some thing that's specific to Magic cards.
The specific numbers aren't relevant at all. It was to serve as an example.
Well, it's both. TNN was selling not because the deck was strong, but solely because of that one card. That's not a good thing - it's a mistake. They changed the ratio later because they had a lot of the other commander decks that needed to move.
If TNN had been leaker earlier there would've been even fewer preorders/purchases for the other decks.
They did protect them. There were measures in place. You act like anyone could waltz in and take pictures - it was stated that a WotC employee took the pictures and sent them to a friend.
It's not relaxed security, it's someone determined to break the rules. It's not possible to be 100% secure and still have people work for you.
I never said weak sets don't hurt sales. If you look, I reflected that in the example I used.
But saying leaks don't have any effect is simply and inarguably incorrect.
a) admitting sales were weak because of a weak set can cause problems with investors - so they can't.
b) It's not contestable.
http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/08/smartphone-leaks-rumors/
https://www.blackberrycentral.com/news/article/leaking-what-it-how-does-it-hurt-company/
http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/04/28/daily-reaction-information-leaks-hurt-industry/
There's more, but it's pretty much a fact, not opinion.
No, but if that's all you're harping on it'll be literally impossible to convince you otherwise.
If your statement boils down to "I don't believe Wizards." that's fine - but understand that you'll never be satisfied with any outcome.
Phones, new games, music albums - it applies to all industries. I only linked to 3 because I didn't feel like doing your research for you.
Wizards reports that leaks hurt sales in a measurable way. You can choose to believe them (because they have marketing surveys and you and I have anecdotal evidence of that fact) or not (because you don't like Wizards?), but evidence points to it being true, regardless of industry.
Most discussions on this board have a very negative tone. I don't think that it's the fault of the leaks that people on the internet get ... we'll politely say "excited".