New Phyrexia was revealed in full from the god book without any impact on sales.
Mark Rosewater, whose word on this I'll take over yours, disagrees with that statement.
The same guy who believes Atogs are too silly for magic, believed that sliver's need an aesthetic change, thinks that female demons and male angels shouldn't be and didn't like conspiracy or edh. I don't follow anything he says because the majority of what he says is bull. I mean he joked about getting rid of landwalk, regenerate and protection in DGM. Only to do it a year later (April fools article that wasn't a joke...). He has never given out any market data or survey data. The survey's are terribly written and he honestly believes that Jace is a more popular character than anyone else in mtg. Really? Your gonna believe a guy who doesn't like 4 player games and believes that hiding information from the public is a good pr thing?
At risk of being off topic, I have to defend MaRo here.
MaRo doesn't believe Atogs are too silly for magic; he merely reported that the CREATIVE TEAM, of which he is not a member, believes that. Ditto Slivers, male angels, and female demons. If you want to blame that on someone, take it up with Doug Beyer.
He prefers 1v1 magic to multiplayer free-for-all. That's fine, everyone has favorite ways to play. He's not god-king of Magic, and even if he were, he (or more likely, his bosses, as he doesnt not have a strong managerial role) assign appropriate personel to work on multiplayer focused sets.
As far as market research goes, I'm all for assuming incompetence in the average person, but Hasbro is a multi-billion dollar company with a dedicated MR department. There a certain baseline competence that you have to give them credit for given how sucessful of a company they are. Figuring out which planeswalkers are popular and which one's aren't is not complicated technology.
On that note, at a certain point you have to take them at their word that leaks hurt sales. There are always confounding variables, but this isn't a basic science where you can design a double-blinded RTC (coming from someone who works on RTCs...). Even if it's a single data point, if it costs a company money, you better BELIEVE they're going to want something done. And either way, N = 2 now. We'll see how OGW sells compared to projections.
All in all, this whole situation has left a gross taste in my mouth. If someone was directly communicating with a source inside WotC and then releasing spoilers (even in a privated group), then 2-3 years is honestly a tough but not unreasonable punishment. And god help the employee who leaked it.
Obviously, the 3 month bannings are what's gross. The situation is murky enough that I'm withholding judgement (possibly forever, since I don't know if we'll ever get a clear story). I can construct plausible scenarios where both sides are right. For example:
WotC is justified if: these individuals were actively discussing spoilers, had clear knowledge that the spoilers were genuine and from a source within WotC, and that this occured over months-years. Some will argue that this scenario still does not warrant a banning, but I believe 3 months is reasonable if this were the case.
Judges have a legitimate grevience if: They were part of a facebook group that was for general magic discussion, and one-two members happened to 'oh-by-the-way' post some spoilers of uncertain legitimacy that were quickly forgotten/buried.
These are two sides of spectrum, and the nuances of the situation would pull me towards supporting one versus the other.
Bottom-line: It's gross, and makes me feel bad, but I am skeptical of everyone at this point.
The best way is to vote with your wallet and if enough people do it, then the company will either change direction (fire the current management) or crumble under the pressure of competition.
The secondary market still comes from opening packs though if you're playing limited or standard. It's only in older formats where you can avoid contributing to the opening of sealed product. That's one of the many reasons I only play Modern and Legacy now, I want to support the store and have a place to play but I don't want to support WotC.
Same here. I don't buy new cards at all anymore. Just modern and legacy singles. I don't support WOTC or their policies.
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Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
Interesting stuff. I come away feeling like I was right - they're punishing these players through DCI because they have no legal leg to stand on. It sounds like they spotted the leak on twitter and tried to backtrack to the source. This facebook group was as far back as they got. They tried to threaten these guys and roll up into the leaker, but it sounds like these guys have no idea where the leaks came from. When they couldn't help, bans all around. It's like when the high school principal sentences you to detention because you were in the area for a prank but can't/won't say who actually did the prank. I weep for everyone who could not read between the lines on this one. I weep for everyone who assumes that a corporation's investigation/appeals process is robust and fair.
I wonder if things would have been different if the leaker had just posted anonymously on reddit instead of sending it to a private group to check out.
Judges = Human / Players / Community.
I feel WotC is being a jackass for their actions.
Maybe.. Just maybe.. This is the problem : "03:19 - There is a person inside Wizards who was the primary leak. He released the cards to a judge with whom he is a close friend."
It would have been more practical to penalize a WotC employee instead of a community judge (no matter how high of a moral standard others placed a judge on)?
"An employee of WotC is walking around naked"
What WotC says to 'players': Dont look!
What WotC says to 'judges': Clothed him!
What 'players' and 'judges' should say to WotC: Maybe you should stop your employee from walking around naked?
Now, what WotC says to 'judges': Its your fault not preventing my employee from walking around naked.
Wizards should go after whoever leaked the information internally but your analogy is just terrible. You're basically putting no blame on the judges. They leaked the information knowing full well that it's completely illegal.
If anything, the last line of that first analogy should be Now, what WotC says to 'judges': Its your fault for not telling us about our employee when he first started walking around naked.
WotC isn't asking judges to prevent leaks, but apparently they would like judges to be more active in reporting leaks to WotC if/when possible.
I would put it like this:
A bunch of kids are hanging around one their houses. Mom says "Don't eat the cookies in the cookie jar, they're for later!" and leaves. One of the kids takes the cookies out of the jar and shares them with the other kids. This goes on for a few months. All the kids know where the cookies are coming from, but they didn't personally take the cookies out of the jar. Then, one day, they get caught.
While the one who took the cookies out the jar is certainly doing something worse than the others, the others know full well where the cookies are coming from at this point and aren't really in the right, and can't really claim they did nothing at all because they didn't personally take the cookies from the cookie jar.
The punishment and suspensions aren't because they *saw* spoilers, or discussed them. The punishment is stemming from the fact that they knowingly received stolen information from WotC, over multiple occasions. The argument that they didn't know for certain that the information was stolen is frankly a moot point, because at some point any reasonable person would have realized that real cards were being leaked to them. While they weren't actively engaging in the leaks themselves, they were most certainly passively encouraging and engaging the leaking of material. Hence why their suspension are mostly quite short (And in fact, Helene has stated shorter than they would have been due to their role as Judges).
The punishment and suspensions aren't because they *saw* spoilers, or discussed them. The punishment is stemming from the fact that they knowingly received stolen information from WotC, over multiple occasions. The argument that they didn't know for certain that the information was stolen is frankly a moot point, because at some point any reasonable person would have realized that real cards were being leaked to them.
Why would they ever use a personal Twitter account to showcase the leaked cards if they realized that the cards were real? That's the most stupid thing to do.
I agree with this statement but not the intent. I don't for a second have any wavering of my trust in any judge for being in possession of advance information. On the other hand, there is lack of trust in WotC after their choosing to take punitive actions against people whose only crime was to not immediately go running to WotC to spill the beans.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Guilt by association. because you knew and did nothing. in a VERY PRIVATE group. YEARS of leaks........
so far everyone is guilty and needs to prove your suspension is unjustified because everyone that got hit has some guilt near them....
they gave you the option to appeal that is good enough.
if your friend in school steals the test answers and you knew about it but didn't use them doesn't clean your hands of the act, simply knowing and not acting is enough.
Guilt by association and guilty until proven innocent are quite frankly bullsh**. Imagine you are giving me a ride to a magic tournament, we get pulled over by the cops and I start freaking out. I tell you I have heroin on me. Will you tell the cops when they walk up to the window? Are you willing to go to jail, have your car towed and impounded? Do you think that you are guilty of drug possession even though you had nothing to do with it?
Never been in the real world have we?
i have been pulled over by police to check if my windshield whippers worked and then took and checked EVERYONE'S ID in the car.
I had a friend get a shotgun pulled on him by a police officer because he mouthed off to a cop not knowing the guy next to him just robbed someone.
I had a swarm of police surround me and a friend with guns drawn because they though our mock up foam swords were bats and we were trying to kill each other in the park.
yes its a VERY real thing..... and much much scarier in the real world.
because in those situations i could have been killed for being in the wrong place the wrong time and not taking things serious.
The punishment and suspensions aren't because they *saw* spoilers, or discussed them. The punishment is stemming from the fact that they knowingly received stolen information from WotC, over multiple occasions. The argument that they didn't know for certain that the information was stolen is frankly a moot point, because at some point any reasonable person would have realized that real cards were being leaked to them.
Why would they ever use a personal Twitter account to showcase the leaked cards if they realized that the cards were real? That's the most stupid thing to do.
Why does anybody show spoilers? They want to show people the neat stuff going about the internet right now. I don't particularly buy the argument that he wanted to discuss the merits of what would essentially be a fan-made card; it's rather silly to share something that you think is fake, because it is rather meaningless to do that. It serves no real purpose. Personally, my thinking is that he assumed the leaked Kozilek showed up elsewhere, and didn't realize that posting it to Twitter was actually going to be the first time the image was released to the wild. The notion that he thought it was fake, and was posting it for posterity reasons, is a fundamentally silly one. He had to have, at least in part, thought that it was possibly real enough to merit tweating it.
The punishment and suspensions aren't because they *saw* spoilers, or discussed them. The punishment is stemming from the fact that they knowingly received stolen information from WotC, over multiple occasions. The argument that they didn't know for certain that the information was stolen is frankly a moot point, because at some point any reasonable person would have realized that real cards were being leaked to them.
Why would they ever use a personal Twitter account to showcase the leaked cards if they realized that the cards were real? That's the most stupid thing to do.
Why does anybody show spoilers? They want to show people the neat stuff going about the internet right now. I don't particularly buy the argument that he wanted to discuss the merits of what would essentially be a fan-made card; it's rather silly to share something that you think is fake, because it is rather meaningless to do that. It serves no real purpose. Personally, my thinking is that he assumed the leaked Kozilek showed up elsewhere, and didn't realize that posting it to Twitter was actually going to be the first time the image was released to the wild. The notion that he thought it was fake, and was posting it for posterity reasons, is a fundamentally silly one. He had to have, at least in part, thought that it was possibly real enough to merit tweating it.
And so the onus is on him? What sense does that make? Let's just articulate both ends of the spectrum, because neither one incites the knee-jerk reaction:
1) He received an image that he half-heartedly believed may or may not be real. It did not come directly from a WotC employee, so the question lingers. Completely oblivious to the fact no one else has seen this image, he shares it on his personal account, as many of us have at one time or another to our friends. This is for the purpose of discussing it among fellow players. Wizards blows up his phone making threats of banning. He's complicit in assisting and did not know of the dangers at the time he posted. He gets banned anyway.
2) He received the image knowing full well it was real, because he got the image from a WotC employee. Knowing full well no one else has seen this image, he puts his judge position at risk to post to his personal account for the lulz. This is for the purpose of discussing it among fellow players. Wizards blows up his phone making threats of banning. He's complicit in assisting and did not know of the dangers at the time he posted. He gets banned anyway.
In either the case of being oblivious or genuinely malicious (neither of which is likely the case, though the truth likely leans more toward oblivious), you're saying that even though 'spoilers happen all the time', he was supposed to verify that the image, whether real or fake, had appeared nowhere else on the internet, to protect WotC's marketing interests? Maybe, just maybe I'd go along with that if was posted ANYWHERE that that's also judge's responsibility. If the image was obtained firsthand from a WotC employee, then yeah, I'd have some concerns there, as well. If he wasn't complicit in assisting once he realized the problem, then yeah, I'd have concerns. But obtaining it second hand a few weeks before spoiler season started anyway, not knowing it was his responsibility to act as internet police for WotC IP, and being complicit does not add up to a ban for him. It's an unfortunate thing for WotC, sure (I still disagree on that point, as well, but let's just give them that one), but ultimately the judge obtained information he didn't know was in breach, from a source within the company that did the breach, and he tried to help when he realized the mistake. You don't punish that behavior.
And so the onus is on him? What sense does that make? Let's just articulate both ends of the spectrum, because neither one incites the knee-jerk reaction:
1) He received an image that he half-heartedly believed may or may not be real. It did not come directly from a WotC employee, so the question lingers. Completely oblivious to the fact no one else has seen this image, he shares it on his personal account, as many of us have at one time or another to our friends. This is for the purpose of discussing it among fellow players. Wizards blows up his phone making threats of banning. He's complicit in assisting and did not know of the dangers at the time he posted. He gets banned anyway.
2) He received the image knowing full well it was real, because he got the image from a WotC employee. Knowing full well no one else has seen this image, he puts his judge position at risk to post to his personal account for the lulz. This is for the purpose of discussing it among fellow players. Wizards blows up his phone making threats of banning. He's complicit in assisting and did not know of the dangers at the time he posted. He gets banned anyway.
In either the case of being oblivious or genuinely malicious (neither of which is likely the case, though the truth likely leans more toward oblivious), you're saying that even though 'spoilers happen all the time', he was supposed to verify that the image, whether real or fake, had appeared nowhere else on the internet, to protect WotC's marketing interests? Maybe, just maybe I'd go along with that if was posted ANYWHERE that that's also judge's responsibility. If the image was obtained firsthand from a WotC employee, then yeah, I'd have some concerns there, as well. If he wasn't complicit in assisting once he realized the problem, then yeah, I'd have concerns. But obtaining it second hand a few weeks before spoiler season started anyway, not knowing it was his responsibility to act as internet police for WotC IP, and being complicit does not add up to a ban for him. It's an unfortunate thing for WotC, sure (I still disagree on that point, as well, but let's just give them that one), but ultimately the judge obtained information he didn't know was in breach, from a source within the company that did the breach, and he tried to help when he realized the mistake. You don't punish that behavior.
Keep in mind I never stated I agreed with his suspension, either in full or in the severity of it. Personally, I think that while he *should* have known better than to publicly release leaked information, the fact that he rather quickly was willing to work with Wizards to rectify the situation should have led to either them telling him not to do it again in the future and to be more careful with future information, or at worst a token suspension that the others received to drive home the point that publicly releasing leaked information is not going to be tolerated. Three years is excessive in his case, and unnecessary given his role in the situation (As the information received was unsolicited, and I don't believe he had anything to do with previous leaks).
The greater point towards the other judges who received a suspension is that they really should have known better. They were part of a group that had knowingly received several times in the past material that was illicitly obtained. It wasn't just that it was unsolicited material posted there; it's that this has been going on for quite some time. At some point, the onus most certainly was on someone to call foul on the situation. Once, when it is unsolicited? Sure, that's not a major issue. Several times, over several months? That's a bit different.
Overall, I have said my piece. Feel free to support WotC however you want. But maybe WotC could have done better?
Signing off!
And your piece was well thought of and delivered!
However, just to clarify:
I do support WoTC overall - we would not our cardboard crack otherwise, the DCI would not have been formed, and I would not be able to teach people from all ages and walks of life how to play MTG every Friday night.
But I do not 'support' WoTC RE what has just happened, as I feel there is more we do not know.
It is never as simple as choose a side, and I am well practised in remaining impartial. You are right in regards to the company doing better.
They released the information, and it should have been done in a way to ensure that these very discussions are more focused on the cause, and not the effect.
Again to reiterate - and I think this is very important, we can discuss fairness, ban-hammers etcetera, but I think this topic lacks something more important,
Solutions!
Suggestions for the players affected, for the remaining judges in the area severely affected.
I as well am signing off, happy holidays/ Merry Xmas to you all!
msun: Knives scoop ice cream.
Highroller: No they don't, knives don't scoop. Spoons scoop.
msun: Well, knives SHOULD scoop icecream.
Highroller: We have spoons that do it. Moreover, the shape of a knife that would scoop ice cream would make it horrible for performing the functions of a knife.
msun: Highroller, you bring up spoons as though they were the utensil used for scooping ice cream.
The only thing this has done was discourage me from ever becoming a judge. Thanks Wotc, you have now taken all the fun out of spoiler season because everyone will be afraid of the banhammer when the next round of leaks/spoilers come around to discuss them.
Why didn't every single member of this forum get the same ban as the facebook group? We all saw, shared and discussed the same material and the mods even left it open so we could do so. Why don't we all have bans too?
The only thing this has done was discourage me from ever becoming a judge. Thanks Wotc, you have now taken all the fun out of spoiler season because everyone will be afraid of the banhammer when the next round of leaks/spoilers come around to discuss them.
Why didn't every single member of this forum get the same ban as the facebook group? We all saw, shared and discussed the same material and the mods even left it open so we could do so. Why don't we all have bans too?
once its here, its publicly available.
we dont know all the details, but im pretty certain no one has to worry about reading anything on mtgs.
The only thing this has done was discourage me from ever becoming a judge. Thanks Wotc, you have now taken all the fun out of spoiler season because everyone will be afraid of the banhammer when the next round of leaks/spoilers come around to discuss them.
Why didn't every single member of this forum get the same ban as the facebook group? We all saw, shared and discussed the same material and the mods even left it open so we could do so. Why don't we all have bans too?
once its here, its publicly available.
we dont know all the details, but im pretty certain no one has to worry about reading anything on mtgs.
Why not though? Someone stole their IP and illegally shared it on MTGS. Why is this acceptable when sharing it on facebook isn't?
Why not though? Someone stole their IP and illegally shared it on MTGS. Why is this acceptable when sharing it on facebook isn't?
Helen Bergeot recently did an interview where she mentions "..there is a difference between seeing it on a small group and seeing it on Twitter.."
She didn't come out and say it explicitly, but the difference is between it being within the public scope or not.
If someone "steals" their IP and posts it on twitter, facebook, or on MTGS where everyone can view it - that information has become publicly accessible by everyone. The person who leaked the information can of course be held accountable, but since everyone can see it now, everyone can discuss it. You cannot be held legally liable for discussing it, and wotc will never try to pursue reprimanding people for discussing a spoiler that has reached the public masses.
The difference here is that this was a small, private group and thus the information had not entered the public scope. WotC has basically, in not so many words, said that this group helped facilitate someone leaking by not reporting it, and by a member later posting the information publicly. WotC has always tried to investigate and reprimand leaks and people facilitating those leaks. They have never gone after anyone who discussed the information after it leaked.
Truly, you may discuss the latest spoils without fear.
The only thing this has done was discourage me from ever becoming a judge. Thanks Wotc, you have now taken all the fun out of spoiler season because everyone will be afraid of the banhammer when the next round of leaks/spoilers come around to discuss them.
Why didn't every single member of this forum get the same ban as the facebook group? We all saw, shared and discussed the same material and the mods even left it open so we could do so. Why don't we all have bans too?
once its here, its publicly available.
we dont know all the details, but im pretty certain no one has to worry about reading anything on mtgs.
Why not though? Someone stole their IP and illegally shared it on MTGS. Why is this acceptable when sharing it on facebook isn't?
Because on MTG Salvation we don't use our real names and they can't figure out our DCI numbers
once its here, its publicly available.
we dont know all the details, but im pretty certain no one has to worry about reading anything on mtgs.
Not strictly true. If a leak started here on MTGS we could trace it back to the individual, who would be held accountable as well as the mods who posted/allowed it to spread. That would probably be worst cast scenario. But as one poster here stated earlier, the issue here is about actual leaks to a small group. Probably greater than 99% of us here don't and won't get access to that type of leak so the actions of WotC don't pertain to us beyond our individual outrage.
All this made me realize I don't want to support this company.
It is not the player's obligation to police what happens in WOTC internal affairs. If they feel like players need to work for them then I expect payment and not taking away our judges.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
Right now the community is mostly outraged at this judge 'scandal'. I know I am and I don't even play MTG anymore but if I did I would choose not to spend a penny on OGW. The backlash WotC is receiving will reduce sales numbers for OGW whereas the leaks will now. WotC could have sat by after the leaks and done absolutely nothing and they would have sold more product. Instead they thought hey let's strike out against the glue that holds organized play together and see where that takes us. Oh and we'll suspend people who reported people when the people who reported did nothing wrong. WotC can and does suspend/ban people for any reason you can think of and that's not remotely right it just makes me think of WotC as a despot.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I'm seeing a lot of *****ing, but not many serious suggestions for how WotC should have proceeded. What would you have them do? Should these people escape punishment simply because their role as judges are important to their respective communities? I don't think WotC makes all of the best decisions, but some here seem to assume that they lie to us at every turn. When they say leaks hurt sales, I believe them. Moreover, that's not the kind of data they would release publicly, and we're acting foolish when we expect them to do just that.
Ultimately, I believe that they got what they deserved, though if it's true that the whistleblower was also punished (albeit with a mere three month suspension), I'd like more information on that. Essentially, they were in possession of stolen property to which they were not entitled. Actions have consequences, and giving judges a free pass is unacceptable.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
It doesn't matter if you're being paid or not. If you elect to be a judge for Wizards events, you're agreeing to represent the company and uphold its image. If you're doing something counterproductive to their designs, they have every right in the world to disassociate themselves from you. It doesn't matter if leaks hurt sales or not- its THEIR call, not any of ours when this information gets released. And it doesn't matter if these are the only judges in an area or not- exclusivity doesn't give you an excuse to break the rules. If you want to be mad at someone for all the judges in a region being suspended, be mad at the judges for being selfish and foolish in their decision making, and creating this quandry. It's no different than when a star player gets a conduct-related suspension from his sports team- you blame the player for acting up, not the administration for doing what they had to do.
Right now the community is mostly outraged at this judge 'scandal'. I know I am and I don't even play MTG anymore but if I did I would choose not to spend a penny on OGW. The backlash WotC is receiving will reduce sales numbers for OGW whereas the leaks will now. WotC could have sat by after the leaks and done absolutely nothing and they would have sold more product. Instead they thought hey let's strike out against the glue that holds organized play together and see where that takes us. Oh and we'll suspend people who reported people when the people who reported did nothing wrong. WotC can and does suspend/ban people for any reason you can think of and that's not remotely right it just makes me think of WotC as a despot.
I would be shocked if 2% of players even knew about this. As important as we think we are, the sort of people who obsessively read MTG salv and read bannings are a tiny, tiny minority of the magic playing community. This will have almost no impact on the game, just like every other "scandal" people are convinced is the end of magic as we know it.
It doesn't matter if you're being paid or not. If you elect to be a judge for Wizards events, you're agreeing to represent the company and uphold its image. If you're doing something counterproductive to their designs, they have every right in the world to disassociate themselves from you. It doesn't matter if leaks hurt sales or not- its THEIR call, not any of ours when this information gets released. And it doesn't matter if these are the only judges in an area or not- exclusivity doesn't give you an excuse to break the rules. If you want to be mad at someone for all the judges in a region being suspended, be mad at the judges for being selfish and foolish in their decision making, and creating this quandry. It's no different than when a star player gets a conduct-related suspension from his sports team- you blame the player for acting up, not the administration for doing what they had to do.
No offense, but that's remarkably short-sighted, and as it seems is par for the course with anyone rallying around a corporate banner, oversimplifies the issue to a point where it doesn't seem like you understand what's wrong with this scandal. 'All the judges that did that are bad' is plain stupid. Some of the judges banned have clearly stated they had not even logged into the group or participated during the time of the leaks. Another was complicit in assisting Wizards to figure out what happened and got banned anyway. That's not good faith, trust, or respect. Taking it as 'well they said it hurt them and I believe it and they can do what they want' is basically a hall pass you're giving them that ignores any extenuating circumstances, and the published facts about what's happened since. Unless you genuinely haven't read the whole story (in which case you shouldn't be vocalizing your opinion anyway, you're ill-informed), there's no frame on this that makes WotC look sparkling white and clean - there's a huge gulf between appropriate response and what they did, which is why so many are up in arms. If it was all conspiracy theories and conjecture, you might be right in your blind trust. There's enough to this story, though, that just makes an opinion like yours sound painfully like the knee-jerk reactions with half the information that WotC is being accused of.
(I'm sorry if I come off a little abrupt, but even someone wholeheartedly agreeing with Wizards' stance on this would have to admit there was overkill in here. The fact that you don't sounds like you don't know enough about the issue to have an opinion, let alone voice it publicly.)
Complicity is a funny strategy, but it is necessary in cases like this. I used to work security at my alma mater, and we would bust dorm rooms with weed in them. Regardless of whether you posessed it or not, you got in trouble. It's impossible to determine who is responsible for what, and if you have the oppoertunity to either leave or convince your peer group to stop, and you don't take it, you're just as at fault as they are. Same thing goes for this situation. People say some of the L2's didn't access the group all that often and got caught in the crossfire, but there's no determination of that. Wizards can't just say "Oh yeah Jimbo here hadn't 'seen' the latest post in the group, that meanss he's inactive." Jimbo goes down with the ship because he is equally as responsible for his peers' activities.
Except Jimbo has this group in his groups and only uses Facebook to message his family, and forgot he was in this said group. Just saying. Butchered at the block because he forgot to leave the group or chose to be inactive, which is part of the list of 200 plus other stupid groups he is a part of, including hot dog eating champions group.
Since most of the players are table top casuals, this isn't true.
At risk of being off topic, I have to defend MaRo here.
MaRo doesn't believe Atogs are too silly for magic; he merely reported that the CREATIVE TEAM, of which he is not a member, believes that. Ditto Slivers, male angels, and female demons. If you want to blame that on someone, take it up with Doug Beyer.
He prefers 1v1 magic to multiplayer free-for-all. That's fine, everyone has favorite ways to play. He's not god-king of Magic, and even if he were, he (or more likely, his bosses, as he doesnt not have a strong managerial role) assign appropriate personel to work on multiplayer focused sets.
As far as market research goes, I'm all for assuming incompetence in the average person, but Hasbro is a multi-billion dollar company with a dedicated MR department. There a certain baseline competence that you have to give them credit for given how sucessful of a company they are. Figuring out which planeswalkers are popular and which one's aren't is not complicated technology.
On that note, at a certain point you have to take them at their word that leaks hurt sales. There are always confounding variables, but this isn't a basic science where you can design a double-blinded RTC (coming from someone who works on RTCs...). Even if it's a single data point, if it costs a company money, you better BELIEVE they're going to want something done. And either way, N = 2 now. We'll see how OGW sells compared to projections.
All in all, this whole situation has left a gross taste in my mouth. If someone was directly communicating with a source inside WotC and then releasing spoilers (even in a privated group), then 2-3 years is honestly a tough but not unreasonable punishment. And god help the employee who leaked it.
Obviously, the 3 month bannings are what's gross. The situation is murky enough that I'm withholding judgement (possibly forever, since I don't know if we'll ever get a clear story). I can construct plausible scenarios where both sides are right. For example:
WotC is justified if: these individuals were actively discussing spoilers, had clear knowledge that the spoilers were genuine and from a source within WotC, and that this occured over months-years. Some will argue that this scenario still does not warrant a banning, but I believe 3 months is reasonable if this were the case.
Judges have a legitimate grevience if: They were part of a facebook group that was for general magic discussion, and one-two members happened to 'oh-by-the-way' post some spoilers of uncertain legitimacy that were quickly forgotten/buried.
These are two sides of spectrum, and the nuances of the situation would pull me towards supporting one versus the other.
Bottom-line: It's gross, and makes me feel bad, but I am skeptical of everyone at this point.
Same here. I don't buy new cards at all anymore. Just modern and legacy singles. I don't support WOTC or their policies.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
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UW Miracle Control
I would put it like this:
A bunch of kids are hanging around one their houses. Mom says "Don't eat the cookies in the cookie jar, they're for later!" and leaves. One of the kids takes the cookies out of the jar and shares them with the other kids. This goes on for a few months. All the kids know where the cookies are coming from, but they didn't personally take the cookies out of the jar. Then, one day, they get caught.
While the one who took the cookies out the jar is certainly doing something worse than the others, the others know full well where the cookies are coming from at this point and aren't really in the right, and can't really claim they did nothing at all because they didn't personally take the cookies from the cookie jar.
The punishment and suspensions aren't because they *saw* spoilers, or discussed them. The punishment is stemming from the fact that they knowingly received stolen information from WotC, over multiple occasions. The argument that they didn't know for certain that the information was stolen is frankly a moot point, because at some point any reasonable person would have realized that real cards were being leaked to them. While they weren't actively engaging in the leaks themselves, they were most certainly passively encouraging and engaging the leaking of material. Hence why their suspension are mostly quite short (And in fact, Helene has stated shorter than they would have been due to their role as Judges).
Why would they ever use a personal Twitter account to showcase the leaked cards if they realized that the cards were real? That's the most stupid thing to do.
You need to reevaluate your circle of friends.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
Why does anybody show spoilers? They want to show people the neat stuff going about the internet right now. I don't particularly buy the argument that he wanted to discuss the merits of what would essentially be a fan-made card; it's rather silly to share something that you think is fake, because it is rather meaningless to do that. It serves no real purpose. Personally, my thinking is that he assumed the leaked Kozilek showed up elsewhere, and didn't realize that posting it to Twitter was actually going to be the first time the image was released to the wild. The notion that he thought it was fake, and was posting it for posterity reasons, is a fundamentally silly one. He had to have, at least in part, thought that it was possibly real enough to merit tweating it.
And so the onus is on him? What sense does that make? Let's just articulate both ends of the spectrum, because neither one incites the knee-jerk reaction:
1) He received an image that he half-heartedly believed may or may not be real. It did not come directly from a WotC employee, so the question lingers. Completely oblivious to the fact no one else has seen this image, he shares it on his personal account, as many of us have at one time or another to our friends. This is for the purpose of discussing it among fellow players. Wizards blows up his phone making threats of banning. He's complicit in assisting and did not know of the dangers at the time he posted. He gets banned anyway.
2) He received the image knowing full well it was real, because he got the image from a WotC employee. Knowing full well no one else has seen this image, he puts his judge position at risk to post to his personal account for the lulz. This is for the purpose of discussing it among fellow players. Wizards blows up his phone making threats of banning. He's complicit in assisting and did not know of the dangers at the time he posted. He gets banned anyway.
In either the case of being oblivious or genuinely malicious (neither of which is likely the case, though the truth likely leans more toward oblivious), you're saying that even though 'spoilers happen all the time', he was supposed to verify that the image, whether real or fake, had appeared nowhere else on the internet, to protect WotC's marketing interests? Maybe, just maybe I'd go along with that if was posted ANYWHERE that that's also judge's responsibility. If the image was obtained firsthand from a WotC employee, then yeah, I'd have some concerns there, as well. If he wasn't complicit in assisting once he realized the problem, then yeah, I'd have concerns. But obtaining it second hand a few weeks before spoiler season started anyway, not knowing it was his responsibility to act as internet police for WotC IP, and being complicit does not add up to a ban for him. It's an unfortunate thing for WotC, sure (I still disagree on that point, as well, but let's just give them that one), but ultimately the judge obtained information he didn't know was in breach, from a source within the company that did the breach, and he tried to help when he realized the mistake. You don't punish that behavior.
Keep in mind I never stated I agreed with his suspension, either in full or in the severity of it. Personally, I think that while he *should* have known better than to publicly release leaked information, the fact that he rather quickly was willing to work with Wizards to rectify the situation should have led to either them telling him not to do it again in the future and to be more careful with future information, or at worst a token suspension that the others received to drive home the point that publicly releasing leaked information is not going to be tolerated. Three years is excessive in his case, and unnecessary given his role in the situation (As the information received was unsolicited, and I don't believe he had anything to do with previous leaks).
The greater point towards the other judges who received a suspension is that they really should have known better. They were part of a group that had knowingly received several times in the past material that was illicitly obtained. It wasn't just that it was unsolicited material posted there; it's that this has been going on for quite some time. At some point, the onus most certainly was on someone to call foul on the situation. Once, when it is unsolicited? Sure, that's not a major issue. Several times, over several months? That's a bit different.
And your piece was well thought of and delivered!
However, just to clarify:
I do support WoTC overall - we would not our cardboard crack otherwise, the DCI would not have been formed, and I would not be able to teach people from all ages and walks of life how to play MTG every Friday night.
But I do not 'support' WoTC RE what has just happened, as I feel there is more we do not know.
It is never as simple as choose a side, and I am well practised in remaining impartial. You are right in regards to the company doing better.
They released the information, and it should have been done in a way to ensure that these very discussions are more focused on the cause, and not the effect.
Again to reiterate - and I think this is very important, we can discuss fairness, ban-hammers etcetera, but I think this topic lacks something more important,
Solutions!
Suggestions for the players affected, for the remaining judges in the area severely affected.
I as well am signing off, happy holidays/ Merry Xmas to you all!
- B
Why didn't every single member of this forum get the same ban as the facebook group? We all saw, shared and discussed the same material and the mods even left it open so we could do so. Why don't we all have bans too?
we dont know all the details, but im pretty certain no one has to worry about reading anything on mtgs.
Why not though? Someone stole their IP and illegally shared it on MTGS. Why is this acceptable when sharing it on facebook isn't?
She didn't come out and say it explicitly, but the difference is between it being within the public scope or not.
If someone "steals" their IP and posts it on twitter, facebook, or on MTGS where everyone can view it - that information has become publicly accessible by everyone. The person who leaked the information can of course be held accountable, but since everyone can see it now, everyone can discuss it. You cannot be held legally liable for discussing it, and wotc will never try to pursue reprimanding people for discussing a spoiler that has reached the public masses.
The difference here is that this was a small, private group and thus the information had not entered the public scope. WotC has basically, in not so many words, said that this group helped facilitate someone leaking by not reporting it, and by a member later posting the information publicly. WotC has always tried to investigate and reprimand leaks and people facilitating those leaks. They have never gone after anyone who discussed the information after it leaked.
Truly, you may discuss the latest spoils without fear.
No longer staff here.
Because on MTG Salvation we don't use our real names and they can't figure out our DCI numbers
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"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
Not strictly true. If a leak started here on MTGS we could trace it back to the individual, who would be held accountable as well as the mods who posted/allowed it to spread. That would probably be worst cast scenario. But as one poster here stated earlier, the issue here is about actual leaks to a small group. Probably greater than 99% of us here don't and won't get access to that type of leak so the actions of WotC don't pertain to us beyond our individual outrage.
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It is not the player's obligation to police what happens in WOTC internal affairs. If they feel like players need to work for them then I expect payment and not taking away our judges.
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"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
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Ultimately, I believe that they got what they deserved, though if it's true that the whistleblower was also punished (albeit with a mere three month suspension), I'd like more information on that. Essentially, they were in possession of stolen property to which they were not entitled. Actions have consequences, and giving judges a free pass is unacceptable.
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I would be shocked if 2% of players even knew about this. As important as we think we are, the sort of people who obsessively read MTG salv and read bannings are a tiny, tiny minority of the magic playing community. This will have almost no impact on the game, just like every other "scandal" people are convinced is the end of magic as we know it.
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No offense, but that's remarkably short-sighted, and as it seems is par for the course with anyone rallying around a corporate banner, oversimplifies the issue to a point where it doesn't seem like you understand what's wrong with this scandal. 'All the judges that did that are bad' is plain stupid. Some of the judges banned have clearly stated they had not even logged into the group or participated during the time of the leaks. Another was complicit in assisting Wizards to figure out what happened and got banned anyway. That's not good faith, trust, or respect. Taking it as 'well they said it hurt them and I believe it and they can do what they want' is basically a hall pass you're giving them that ignores any extenuating circumstances, and the published facts about what's happened since. Unless you genuinely haven't read the whole story (in which case you shouldn't be vocalizing your opinion anyway, you're ill-informed), there's no frame on this that makes WotC look sparkling white and clean - there's a huge gulf between appropriate response and what they did, which is why so many are up in arms. If it was all conspiracy theories and conjecture, you might be right in your blind trust. There's enough to this story, though, that just makes an opinion like yours sound painfully like the knee-jerk reactions with half the information that WotC is being accused of.
(I'm sorry if I come off a little abrupt, but even someone wholeheartedly agreeing with Wizards' stance on this would have to admit there was overkill in here. The fact that you don't sounds like you don't know enough about the issue to have an opinion, let alone voice it publicly.)
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