If they did 1 card a month like they do for FNM promos, do you have any idea how long it would take to reprint every card that deserves a reprinting? That's 12 cards a year. There are literally hundreds of cards they could be doing; this plan would easily last for a decade or more.
FNM promos don't create the price drop that we know players want, so it ultimately just invites complaints. On top of that, FNM cards are in a way, also "advertisements" for the formats they represents and Wizards prefers to promote Standard and Limited for obvious reasons - because that mass reprint isn't coming for sure, so promoting non-rotating formats only introduces more people to create and complain about scarcity. Yes, they do throw a couple of those at us, but was Path to Exile and Serum Visions's prices really affected? Player turnout wasn't even that much increased because when the competitive people show up, the less competitive players (which are usually the newer players Wizards are targeting) usually don't.
But that's not to say the idea isn't without merit though, Wizards should consider creating a different promo for different formats for FNM each month (at least a Standard Promo and a Modern Promo per month for starters), so that they can encourage different formats to fire for FNM each week instead of leaving it so open as "Choose your own format".
Magic is cursed by it's own popularity, a rarity system that has gone completely out of control, and a secondary market that is plagued by buyouts and a lack of effective reprint strategies. Any solution Wizards could implement basically involves fighting with the secondary market they themselves created through their own negligence, unfortunately. Just about the only format right now that is priced properly is commander and pauper magic, and even then, we often can find commons and uncommons that are as expensive as mythics and rares due to lacks of reprints.
I switched up to collecting Force of Will and hopefully I'll be able to eventually find people to play against in that game, as it's everything magic the gathering is with a slightly more flexible rule set and being only a fraction of the cost. A pro tour worthy deck for only 80 usd vs 800-1200 usd... yeah there isn't a contest here.
What exactly are all the people collecting and speculating on magic cards going to do when the game crashes, btw? Technically, Wizards of the Coast is going to be sitting dandy when it happens because they don't control or have any true stake in the secondary market, so when the time comes to just make a god set of all the best cards at a lower rarity to hit the reset button, it's going to be fun to watch.
People always talk about how they would never do that because it would crush the secondary market and tournament scene, but never consider the possibility that may be exactly what the company will want to eventually do.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Advertisement and entry fees are what make sports, and now e-sports, a thriving business. And that alone could make eternal events a net success, if WotC wasn't stubborn on making money only a specific way that isn't sustainable in the long run and depends on the continued influx of middle-class teenagers with dispossable income who havent been burnt out by their business practices.
That's because sports and e-sports have advantages TCGs don't have.
Sports - The advertisements have been working to their advantage for ages, while I personally don't understand the culture around it well, it is true that running around will improve at least your physical stamina, if not health. On top of that, I think its safe to say historically it also works against e-Sports and TCGs, with people claiming that sitting around playing with a controller of cards makes you unhealthy (add on stereotypes and so on...), the effects of that is waning, but it still remains a fact that TCGs are way behind on this factor as an "advantage".
e-Sports - Suffers and recovers from pretty much the same things TCG do, but they still have one advantage - ease of access. If your friends don't like a game you play, there's always online multiplayer stacked in the game. In MTG, you'll need to make the trip down to the LGS for games. For TCGs (traditional ones like MTG, for emphasis), the offline and online aspects are two separate entities. Hearthstone is digital-only, so it's more of under the e-sport category, while Pokemon at least attempts to link the online aspect together with the offline aspect with code cards in every booster, which is at least an effort to what Magic is currently at, literally the same game online/offline at twice the price (ironically which is what the Pokemon does with their mainstream video games, but even the online trade features help salvage that to an extent.)
It's hard for TCGs to hype themselves to become the majority's approved (even e-sports are having some trouble with that) and by the nature of the game it's harder to get people to play TCGs than Video Games due to ease of access (pretty sure the video gaming community is tons larger than the TCG one, counting overlaps).
I'm not defending WotC's practices (I agree they could still do a lot better), but just pointing out your suggestions aren't as easy as they seem, even for a company as big as Hasbro.
With the way the Hearthstone community devours streaming content, it's embarrassing that WotC hasn't stepped it's game up. I've watched Magic Online deck techs, and it's just painful. The GUI is horrendous, the online presence is only maybe 1/10 of the playerbase (I'm probably being generous), and it's stagnant. No bright colors, no animations. It's as dull as it can be. With how much these other games are doing in the online space, the fact is that Wizards seems trapped in 2000, using antiquated practices, not recognizing their community, and not cultivating it properly. I mean...MaRo's twitter is (cryptically) more informative than their own website. Everything they touch online is a joke.
Even the way spoiler season is handled is plain stupid. Announce a set, not show 1 damn card for it? Trickle information over months, and only at trade shows or conventions? Wait until the last 2 weeks before slowly giving the set away, framed so that initial buzz is high, then bait and switch a lousy, top-heavy set after the preorders have taken place?
I agree with you that it's somewhat apples and oranges comparing this to esports, but in defense of Sirius_B, they seem trapped in the stone age compared to what everyone else is doing.
It is difficult to say they are doing something wrong when they are hitting sales records but it seems that the game is growing in spite of what WotC is doing. As a long time player who went from casual to semi-competitive to casual again. There is little that WotC currently does that would entice me to get back into a more active and competitive player (who would spend much much more money on the game). Modo is a joke, Their website is nearly unusable, Mythics have created huge price disparity in the secondary market that has contributed to record expensive standard prices.
What would be interesting is if one of the big video game companies bought WotC from Hasbro and completely overhauled the digital side of the game. But i doubt Hasbro would sell the golden goose so we aint going to see that happen. Look at the most recent set. Many say it is the worst big set in a decade (or more) but it sold like hot cakes because they put in a cute little gimmick that cost them virtually nothing. Why would they change anything?
It is difficult to say they are doing something wrong when they are hitting sales records but it seems that the game is growing in spite of what WotC is doing. As a long time player who went from casual to semi-competitive to casual again. There is little that WotC currently does that would entice me to get back into a more active and competitive player (who would spend much much more money on the game). Modo is a joke, Their website is nearly unusable, Mythics have created huge price disparity in the secondary market that has contributed to record expensive standard prices.
What would be interesting is if one of the big video game companies bought WotC from Hasbro and completely overhauled the digital side of the game. But i doubt Hasbro would sell the golden goose so we aint going to see that happen. Look at the most recent set. Many say it is the worst big set in a decade (or more) but it sold like hot cakes because they put in a cute little gimmick that cost them virtually nothing. Why would they change anything?
I think just about everyone would love to have something for Magic the Gathering that is as well polished as Hearthstone is.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It is difficult to say they are doing something wrong when they are hitting sales records but it seems that the game is growing in spite of what WotC is doing. As a long time player who went from casual to semi-competitive to casual again. There is little that WotC currently does that would entice me to get back into a more active and competitive player (who would spend much much more money on the game). Modo is a joke, Their website is nearly unusable, Mythics have created huge price disparity in the secondary market that has contributed to record expensive standard prices.
What would be interesting is if one of the big video game companies bought WotC from Hasbro and completely overhauled the digital side of the game. But i doubt Hasbro would sell the golden goose so we aint going to see that happen. Look at the most recent set. Many say it is the worst big set in a decade (or more) but it sold like hot cakes because they put in a cute little gimmick that cost them virtually nothing. Why would they change anything?
I think just about everyone would love to have something for Magic the Gathering that is as well polished as Hearthstone is.
Exactly. If MODO was as polished as Hearthstone i would be on it all the time. As is i haven't updated since Rise of the Eldrazi. The bar for online games has gone up significantly the past 5 years and MODO is just fiddling around with layouts and meaningless features. Have leagues even come back?
My biggest issue with the game is that I'm having a hard time finding a way to play it. The only time I really get to is either at FNM or the Monday night drafts one of the local stores holds. I'd love to be able to go there and just play casually, but no one seems to want to. Hell, you show up early for FNM, and no ones interested in starting up a game just for fun. If you're lucky, a few people might start a 4-way EDH, but unless you can get in on that, you're left twiddling your thumbs until the event starts, unless someone wants to trade. What's the point of owning all these nice cards if the only time you can use them is once a week?
I'm not an elite Magic player. In fact, I'm pretty blah- I generally finish 2-2 on FNM's, and ran out the door singing when I finished 5th out of 16 at 3-1 a couple weeks ago (WITH A FOIL BLIGHT HERDER!). I'm probably one of the weakest players on this forum, given everyone else seems to treat FNM and Gameday wins as no big deal. I went to the GP in Seattle and played a Standard event there, and didn't win a single match. I play a decent deck- Green Eldrazi Ramp with a splash of red. Its got a couple Ugins and Ulamogs and Atarkas, so its hardly budget, but its not exactly top of the line either. But I have fun with it.
But I get the overall sense that not enough people just enjoy the game for the sake of the game anymore. Too many Spikes and not enough Timmys and Vorthos. Everyone either wants to only play with an alpha competitive deck, or do limited where you open up a few packs of cards, make a forty card deck, then shove those cards into a storage box never to be heard from again.
And people talk about how cracking booster packs have no value. Why not just open one once in a while for fun? Just to see what you get? Especially when a set is just released. Even after all these years, theres still something magical (pardon the pun) about tearing off the foil and receiving a bunch of new cards you've never seen before.
I wouldn't even say Pokemon is an inferior TCG when it does a lot of things people want magic to do. The thing holding back games like pokemon and yugioh is the age progression. Typically if you're playing a tcg at 8-12 years old it is pokemon, yugioh, or magic. At 12-18 years old it's most likely yugioh or magic. After 18 you're all but guaranteed to be playing magic at that point. We just age out of hobbies, going from 8-18 we probably go through 50 different hobbies, following what our friends do. Once adulthood starts to set we start to cement our interests and decide them for ourselves. I think a 21 year old can enjoy playing pokemon and have a desire to play it, but they don't want to play against a field of 10 year olds. And I think if magic wasn't around we would see yugioh or force of will as the adult tcg and pokemon as the teenage one. It has nothing to do with the quality of the game, just where the demographics settled because I guarantee there are plenty of people on these forums that still love the pokemon videogames, it's not a child thing it's an everyone thing, but the pokemon tcg is by environment a child's tcg though I believe the average world champion is in his late teens.
I would be one of those older people (age 25+) that got back into the Pokemon TCG, not to play tournaments or anything competitive, but to build a Pokemon TCG Cube out of all the cool cards I used to play with as a kid. The result; my friends and I have a blast with it! Yes, it's a simpler game (no removal/counters etc.) but the 2v2 aspect of Cube translates surprisingly well to Pokemon and makes for exciting gameplay. The thing that surprised me when I was re-buying the cards for this cube was that most of the old cards held some value. They didn't really appreciate like Magic duels did but the cards that used to be competitive still carry 10-20$ price tags. My shadowless Charizard that I kept all this time still sells for 100$ despite being reprinted a few times!
I think many serious Magic players need to step back and realize that a game's quality does not need to come from a financial or competitive aspect but the amount of fun you're having with each game. I realized this when I cut down on Magic to buy more board games
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"Listen closely as your radio plays
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
I love the game and have played on and off for 20 years... It's still good, but the fact that people play standard is baffling. Personally, I keep around:
- A few Tier 1 and 2 modern decks
- A few Tier 1 and 2 legacy decks
- six intro-type decks for teaching newbies (they cost a combined $40)
- A peasant cube (made of real cards)
- An in-process powered cube (made 100% of proxies)
- A full set of Commander 2013 decks (I might sell these, to be honest)
I've been selling off underused $5-20 cards to flesh out what I need to optimize my existing modern/legacy stuff, and I MIGHT build a couple more modern decks (like mono-red burn or mono-green stompy) to loan to my kids, but that's it. I'll probably never play standard again, although I do keep an eye out for new cards for my existing decks with each set... anything modern/legacy playable tends to be super expensive at first, but drops to something reasonable once they rotate out of standard.
As a returning player I have to say I'm quite surprised that magic is growing. I came back on a whim, I hadn't played since Tempest was released and I was a teenager. I found out rather painfully that new players aren't really welcome. The cost to dive into a format is unjustifiable for even someone like me that has a fair amount of disposable income.
My LGS runs standard and legacy with draft every other week. Draft is so anemic that I've shown up to find only one other person ready to play. Standard is where all the action is and where I go and they are all top tier decks. Honestly, the only real fun I had coming back was pre-release, I got destroyed but I had fun. You have standard, which when I looked a month ago you needed $400-500 min to make a top tier deck. I'm not poor, I have a good deal of income I can burn on hobbies but building a deck over the course of two months, knowing that the meta may turn against it or it may become useless when a set cycles is just too hard of a pill to swallow. If it was a hundred or two I could deal. Heck, I would do it without a second thought and honestly is what I foolishly did, I bought about $250 in sealed BFZ and Origins to find out 99.9% of it doesn't have a place in a competitive standard deck.
I also looked into legacy decks and yeah, I guess that's all I need to say.
On a positive note, I'm thoroughly enjoying EDH, playing it casually at the shop on occasion and with a few friends I convinced into buying the new 2015 pre-con.
I'm not sure how they fix this issue for new/returning players since they don't price the cards, it's people that drive value but I can say with certainty that I wanted to start playing again regularly...yet, I'm not going to now.
I love the game and have played on and off for 20 years... It's still good, but the fact that people play standard is baffling. Personally, I keep around:
- A few Tier 1 and 2 modern decks
- A few Tier 1 and 2 legacy decks
- six intro-type decks for teaching newbies (they cost a combined $40)
- A peasant cube (made of real cards)
- An in-process powered cube (made 100% of proxies)
- A full set of Commander 2013 decks (I might sell these, to be honest)
I've been selling off underused $5-20 cards to flesh out what I need to optimize my existing modern/legacy stuff, and I MIGHT build a couple more modern decks (like mono-red burn or mono-green stompy) to loan to my kids, but that's it. I'll probably never play standard again, although I do keep an eye out for new cards for my existing decks with each set... anything modern/legacy playable tends to be super expensive at first, but drops to something reasonable once they rotate out of standard.
What's wrong with playing standard? What's wrong with playing with and enjoying new sets of cards as they come out? Hell, where's the fun in looking at a new set, picking out one card that set that you might use in an existing deck, and ignoring all the rest. You ignore 99% of everything that comes out, and think that you're the one Wizards is supposed to cater to?
Hell, I can't even play Modern right now- I don't have the collected base for it- everything I have is either too old (and my old stuff is way too horrible for Legacy), so Standards all I got. I figure in a few years I'll have enough to make a coherent neoModern deck. But those higher formats are strictly rewards for players who have managed to be collecting longer.
That's not necessarily correct though; they very well could be making even more money than they currently are if they chose to support eternal formats better. If they had the option to make 10$ million dollars by doing what they're doing now, or 50$ million dollars by supporting eternal formats, clearly one decision is better than the other even though they both made a bunch of money.
Supporting eternal formats makes them more money in the short run - the only way to make more money with eternal formats in the long run is to resort to power creep, which in game design is undoubtedly the first stepping stone to the decay of a game.
Yes, there's lots more money to be made when the support for eternal formats start rushing in, causing massive booster sales and price drops. But once that settles down, what happens? When everyone has their Tarmogoyfs and ABUR Duals and are playing the game happily, what can Wizards produce to sell boosters that will generate sales as much as when the reprints started rushing in (because as a business you need to maintain more or less an increasing profit)? They need to make cards more powerful than what is existing to sell boosters - they need to make the cards everyone has redundant in comparison to the new ones so you gave to buy them. Either that or ban all those cards and functionally reprint them so you have to buy boosters. Either way, players aren't going to be happy.
Wizards is very aware of this and that is why they prefer to stick to scaling down power and concentrating on rotating formats, because that makes consistent money across the years for financial reports. When sales drop, all they have to do is put in some gimmick (cough*expeditions*cough) and it will boost sales. That is pretty much all the data they want, the projections for increasing profits over the next decade without resorting to decaying the game.
Yes, it's a blunt statement, but I'm pretty sure this is the truth.
I disagree supporting eternal formats will lead to less profits and power creep long term. One thing you are forgetting is growth in the game. If you reprint eternal staples, then more people who play now will have access to cards, but new players will also buy-in to said formats. When these players buy-in they will likely entice their friends to buy-in as well. Power creep can be avoided by being smart, being creative with new cards and applying the ban hammer from time to time.
Also, I am a fairly new Magic player (started playing in October 2014). So far I have purchased hundreds of dollars in singles (a large portion of money spent on pricey eternal cards), one commander precon (monoblack 2014), one Morningtide booster pack and four Origins booster packs from a friend to draft with a group of friends. I've also won and received booster packs by purchasing over a specified $$ amount of singles. Aside from a foil Sigil Tracer from the Morningtide booster pack all the boosters I have cracked contained garbage. With cracking boosters on par with gambling I doubt I'll ever purchase boosters on par with how many singles I purchase and I'll likely continue to purchase virtually zero boosters unless said boosters start to contain eternal reprints or eternal relevant cards (translation: WOTC receives (and will continue to receive) virtually zero money from me). However, if WOTC wants my money they can start reprinting eternal staples and eternal relevant cards. While I may be alone here, I think there are many who would join me in buying more from WOTC if they started doing this.
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
The only way WotC has an impact on the secondary market is to reprint highly in demand cards. More supply = lower price.
Or in the case of Modern Masters they released a product for that very reason, but it spiked interest in modern as a format which increased the price of non-reprinted singles. So in the case of modern masters increase supply = increase demand = no ease in overall format price.
WotC still has the fear of Chronicles in them so they are really stingy with their reprints.
So what can WOTC do as a company? They don't control the secondary market prices at all. Should they start controlling it?
WOTC does control secondary market to some extent via reprints, printing new cards that impact the meta, bans and what formats they choose to support. This is not a case of free market vs government owns everything. There are an infinite number of options on the spectrum (e.g. democratic socialism). I think many people are just asking WOTC to lean a little bit in the other direction and be a little more aggressive with reprints, printing new cards that impact the meta, bans, etc. One possible option that could work to support this would be setting a desired reasonable price for the average deck in each format and reprinting cards until this price point is reached.
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I'd like to jam together a weird combo or land destruction deck, but nope, wizards says these are not fun and I'd better turn some rhinos sideways. Well I'll tell you what, it's no fun losing to a guy who brings a full-powered Abzan/Jeskai/Esper deck from the latest GP to your local FNM. It's a savage beating. You know your janky brew stands almost no chances. It feels unfair.
I mean, what's the point of playing Standard if you losing both on money (right now you can buy most of modern decks for a price of a tier 1 standard deck and these are not going to rotate anytime soon) and fun (less deck diversity) sides?
The fundamental issue is CCGs are not supposed to last that long, and have so many players playing at once. The game is choked by its history and market economics.
In an ideal world they have lots of players continually buying product, some new players come in and and they don't lose too many players, and an equilibrium of sorts is formed.
That is close to what they have now, except a lot of players leave after a short time and new players join all the time- thanks to the massive free publicity of having a huge player base and a shop-driven system.
Unfortunately the same numbers of player were not playing ten and more years ago, bringing a huge disparity in scarcity of some cards. This is the real issue at the heart of the economic madness.
Wizards probably would not mind players with big, old collections cashing out, but they are the ones who do not need to, and in fact the value of their collections continues to grow so why would they? Even if their collections fell in playability the simple scarcity of the cards gives them an inherent value.
Wizards needs people to buy product and that means good draft environments, and refreshed standard environments- nothing drives 6-12 month players away like "boring" Standard with the same top cards as a year ago (eg Thoughtseize) but only 6-8 decks, most of which are actually quite similar- one aggro, a few control, a few midrange, few critterless strategies. Trouble is that entry to older formats is impossible for the young players with time and no money/life, so people must draft or play standard, the card sales are huge and the money ends up in a couple of standard powerhouses. In order to keep standard interesting rotation needs to be quick- even 18 months is too slow, but it is too fast for people who naturally see it as a money pit- which it is.
Keeping 6 month players happy and 3-4 year players happy is impossible- their needs are diametrically opposed.
I would draw the analogy with the old rental TV market in the 80's/70's. People could not afford to buy TVs, and had to rent- worse value, worse deal, no choice. Standard is renting a TV, 2015 style.
3-4 year players thus move on to Modern as soon as they can but there are an awful lot of them all looking for a way in. Cheap cards that are used in one or two decks only cards suddenly become expensive as a consequence- Serra Ascendant, for example. A bottleneck is formed- lot of people wanting out, limited cards spare, prices likely to thus skyrocket.
EDH muddies the waters- a mediocre Modern card that is awesome in EDH thus costs a lot- think Idyllic Tutor.
Wizards thus has to make sure they keep this EDH market happy- and thanks to no rotation that tends to be the easiest task. Here is the bolt hole for people. Trouble is it is a format that clearly is not for everyone.
Modern players and Legacy players do not need Standard- but as long as they are expensive the 2-3 veteran standard players will be stuck at the bottom looking for a life raft out. That means that as long as numbers remain high the sets will be full of chaff- they can't reprint all the nutty modern staples because what will happen is they then create a market where few people ever buy standard- why would you when you have waited 2 or more years to get your Modern deck? They can't change standard to put in cards to shake up Modern too much, as they would dominate Standard and Wizards needs people to keep opening those boosters.
The net result is people at each end of the spectrum are well catered for- early casual/kitchen table/ my first Standard event and Legacy vets. As you get further away from those extremes the worse it becomes for the players. Add in the perceived need to keep big companies happy and it is a huge mess.
Finally two issues: the NWO gives us the issue that they want the game to be friendly to the new guy- weak counters, strong critters, weak removal, no landkill/prison, and games that go on 20 odd mins. That of course is all very well but leads us to a stagnating and expensive Modern, little from Std feeding in, where the top decks play all the best cards and nothing punishes them for it, whilst all the linear decks they will ever make will be weaker than ones already in Modern.
Then what players want is for them to have more access to cards, but for their expensive collections to not drop to zero- Chronicles style.
Hurray - "I can now get five dime cryptics/goyfs".......6 months later- " I ambored now, everyone is playing cryptic/goyf- and all the new cards are worse.......think I will quit." See what I mean?
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I'd like to jam together a weird combo or land destruction deck, but nope, wizards says these are not fun and I'd better turn some rhinos sideways. Well I'll tell you what, it's no fun losing to a guy who brings a full-powered Abzan/Jeskai/Esper deck from the latest GP to your local FNM. It's a savage beating. You know your janky brew stands almost no chances. It feels unfair.
I mean, what's the point of playing Standard if you losing both on money (right now you can buy most of modern decks for a price of a tier 1 standard deck and these are not going to rotate anytime soon) and fun (less deck diversity) sides?
Who cares what it *feels* like? Feelings are worthless.
If a deck is inherently unfair to the point of being broken, it will be rectified. WOTC has always done a decent job about that. If its not- there's ways around it. Understand the metagame at your store and think of ways to counteract it. No deck is invincible. And sorry your experimental deck failed, but thats what happens to experiments.
I'd like to jam together a weird combo or land destruction deck, but nope, wizards says these are not fun and I'd better turn some rhinos sideways. Well I'll tell you what, it's no fun losing to a guy who brings a full-powered Abzan/Jeskai/Esper deck from the latest GP to your local FNM. It's a savage beating. You know your janky brew stands almost no chances. It feels unfair.
I mean, what's the point of playing Standard if you losing both on money (right now you can buy most of modern decks for a price of a tier 1 standard deck and these are not going to rotate anytime soon) and fun (less deck diversity) sides?
Who cares what it *feels* like? Feelings are worthless.
If a deck is inherently unfair to the point of being broken, it will be rectified. WOTC has always done a decent job about that. If its not- there's ways around it. Understand the metagame at your store and think of ways to counteract it. No deck is invincible. And sorry your experimental deck failed, but thats what happens to experiments.
If you feel standard is pointless, you stop buying into it. And that feels bad for WOTC.
I'd like to jam together a weird combo or land destruction deck, but nope, wizards says these are not fun and I'd better turn some rhinos sideways. Well I'll tell you what, it's no fun losing to a guy who brings a full-powered Abzan/Jeskai/Esper deck from the latest GP to your local FNM. It's a savage beating. You know your janky brew stands almost no chances. It feels unfair.
I mean, what's the point of playing Standard if you losing both on money (right now you can buy most of modern decks for a price of a tier 1 standard deck and these are not going to rotate anytime soon) and fun (less deck diversity) sides?
Who cares what it *feels* like? Feelings are worthless.
If a deck is inherently unfair to the point of being broken, it will be rectified. WOTC has always done a decent job about that. If its not- there's ways around it. Understand the metagame at your store and think of ways to counteract it. No deck is invincible. And sorry your experimental deck failed, but thats what happens to experiments.
If you feel standard is pointless, you stop buying into it. And that feels bad for WOTC.
I doubt they'll notice. There's enough players with open minds and creativity who are willing to evolve and broaden their horizons to keep buying new sets.
I'd like to jam together a weird combo or land destruction deck, but nope, wizards says these are not fun and I'd better turn some rhinos sideways. Well I'll tell you what, it's no fun losing to a guy who brings a full-powered Abzan/Jeskai/Esper deck from the latest GP to your local FNM. It's a savage beating. You know your janky brew stands almost no chances. It feels unfair.
I mean, what's the point of playing Standard if you losing both on money (right now you can buy most of modern decks for a price of a tier 1 standard deck and these are not going to rotate anytime soon) and fun (less deck diversity) sides?
Who cares what it *feels* like? Feelings are worthless.
If a deck is inherently unfair to the point of being broken, it will be rectified. WOTC has always done a decent job about that. If its not- there's ways around it. Understand the metagame at your store and think of ways to counteract it. No deck is invincible. And sorry your experimental deck failed, but thats what happens to experiments.
If you feel standard is pointless, you stop buying into it. And that feels bad for WOTC.
I doubt they'll notice. There's enough players with open minds and creativity who are willing to evolve and broaden their horizons to keep buying new sets.
It's more like:
There's enough players inexperienced enough to waste their money on bad cards which aren't worth anything to keep buying new sets temporarily until they quit out of frustration when they constantly lose to ridiculously expensive decks.
If they quit because they kept losing it simply means they weren't good enough and lacked the patience to become so. Evolution does have its victims after all.
Every deck, even the ridiculously expensive ones, can be solved. Its simply a matter of gaining the experience and knowledge you need to figure out how to do it. You're going to take lumps along the way.
If you feel standard is pointless, you stop buying into it. And that feels bad for WOTC.
I doubt they'll notice. There's enough players with open minds and creativity who are willing to evolve and broaden their horizons to keep buying new sets.
It's more like:
There's enough players inexperienced enough to waste their money on bad cards which aren't worth anything to keep buying new sets temporarily until they quit out of frustration when they constantly lose to ridiculously expensive decks.
If they quit because they kept losing it simply means they weren't good enough and lacked the patience to become so. Evolution does have its victims after all.
Every deck, even the ridiculously expensive ones, can be solved. Its simply a matter of gaining the experience and knowledge you need to figure out how to do it. You're going to take lumps along the way.
Bull*****. The player may understand how to win, but simply can't because the correct answer costs hundreds of dollars, and just get frustrated and want to quit. No amount of affirmative action is going to make Grizzly Bears beat Tarmogoyf.
I love the game and have played on and off for 20 years... It's still good, but the fact that people play standard is baffling. Personally, I keep around:
- A few Tier 1 and 2 modern decks
- A few Tier 1 and 2 legacy decks
- six intro-type decks for teaching newbies (they cost a combined $40)
- A peasant cube (made of real cards)
- An in-process powered cube (made 100% of proxies)
- A full set of Commander 2013 decks (I might sell these, to be honest)
I've been selling off underused $5-20 cards to flesh out what I need to optimize my existing modern/legacy stuff, and I MIGHT build a couple more modern decks (like mono-red burn or mono-green stompy) to loan to my kids, but that's it. I'll probably never play standard again, although I do keep an eye out for new cards for my existing decks with each set... anything modern/legacy playable tends to be super expensive at first, but drops to something reasonable once they rotate out of standard.
What's wrong with playing standard? What's wrong with playing with and enjoying new sets of cards as they come out? Hell, where's the fun in looking at a new set, picking out one card that set that you might use in an existing deck, and ignoring all the rest. You ignore 99% of everything that comes out, and think that you're the one Wizards is supposed to cater to?
Hell, I can't even play Modern right now- I don't have the collected base for it- everything I have is either too old (and my old stuff is way too horrible for Legacy), so Standards all I got. I figure in a few years I'll have enough to make a coherent neoModern deck. But those higher formats are strictly rewards for players who have managed to be collecting longer.
Peace, bro... I misspoke.
Nothing whatsoever is wrong with playing standard if that's what you like. I don't play enough to justify the cost, and I honestly find it a bit boring, but that's subjective. Yes, a standard deck is cheaper than a modern deck, but once you've got a couple modern decks, they are very cheap to maintain compared to standard.
I do NOT think Wizards should cater to any one group more than others, although I suspect if they supported modern and legacy more (by providing enough reprints to make them affordable to more people), they would find a lot of people buying product to enter those formats. It wouldn't help me personally much... I've got my duals/fetches/shocks and goyfs/lilis/snappy/cryptic, ect. And while I have been playing a long time, the majority of my money cards I've acquired over the last 3 years. I'm definitely not one of those guys that got in early and is sitting on dozens of beta moxes and duals (though I now wish I'd sucked it up and bought a set of power & duals back when I could have got the whole shebang for about a grand).
There's enough players inexperienced enough to waste their money on bad cards which aren't worth anything to keep buying new sets temporarily until they quit out of frustration when they constantly lose to ridiculously expensive decks.
If they quit because they kept losing it simply means they weren't good enough and lacked the patience to become so. Evolution does have its victims after all.
Every deck, even the ridiculously expensive ones, can be solved. Its simply a matter of gaining the experience and knowledge you need to figure out how to do it. You're going to take lumps along the way.
Bull*****. The player may understand how to win, but simply can't because the correct answer costs hundreds of dollars, and just get frustrated and want to quit. No amount of affirmative action is going to make Grizzly Bears beat Tarmogoyf.
I was unaware that Tarmogoyf is in Standard.
Gideon / Jace / Ojutai / etc. The cards change, the financial impact remains the same. When you need to start jamming playsets of the most expensive cards in the format just to stand a reasonable chance, the person who just recently started isn't going to be terribly thrilled at the prospect of needing to spend hundreds of dollars on them.
But that aside, the fact that you are making that snarky reply means that you are aware what I am saying is true, and now you're just trying to argue to what degree.
All of those can be dealt with cheaply. Gideon with a Stasis Snare (you'd have to wait for him to use his creature ability, of course). Jace with a Wild slash. Ojutai would trade with a Shivan. Again, no strategy is invincible. Would it be tougher to win with cheaper cards? Absolutely- the cards that are more expensive are that because they help you win better. But its not impossible, skill is still heavily involved.
Hell, I bet if you were to give a top level magic player a common/uncommon playset from any Standard set and told him to make a deck with just that, he still build one that would destroy you or I.
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FNM promos don't create the price drop that we know players want, so it ultimately just invites complaints. On top of that, FNM cards are in a way, also "advertisements" for the formats they represents and Wizards prefers to promote Standard and Limited for obvious reasons - because that mass reprint isn't coming for sure, so promoting non-rotating formats only introduces more people to create and complain about scarcity. Yes, they do throw a couple of those at us, but was Path to Exile and Serum Visions's prices really affected? Player turnout wasn't even that much increased because when the competitive people show up, the less competitive players (which are usually the newer players Wizards are targeting) usually don't.
But that's not to say the idea isn't without merit though, Wizards should consider creating a different promo for different formats for FNM each month (at least a Standard Promo and a Modern Promo per month for starters), so that they can encourage different formats to fire for FNM each week instead of leaving it so open as "Choose your own format".
I switched up to collecting Force of Will and hopefully I'll be able to eventually find people to play against in that game, as it's everything magic the gathering is with a slightly more flexible rule set and being only a fraction of the cost. A pro tour worthy deck for only 80 usd vs 800-1200 usd... yeah there isn't a contest here.
What exactly are all the people collecting and speculating on magic cards going to do when the game crashes, btw? Technically, Wizards of the Coast is going to be sitting dandy when it happens because they don't control or have any true stake in the secondary market, so when the time comes to just make a god set of all the best cards at a lower rarity to hit the reset button, it's going to be fun to watch.
People always talk about how they would never do that because it would crush the secondary market and tournament scene, but never consider the possibility that may be exactly what the company will want to eventually do.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
With the way the Hearthstone community devours streaming content, it's embarrassing that WotC hasn't stepped it's game up. I've watched Magic Online deck techs, and it's just painful. The GUI is horrendous, the online presence is only maybe 1/10 of the playerbase (I'm probably being generous), and it's stagnant. No bright colors, no animations. It's as dull as it can be. With how much these other games are doing in the online space, the fact is that Wizards seems trapped in 2000, using antiquated practices, not recognizing their community, and not cultivating it properly. I mean...MaRo's twitter is (cryptically) more informative than their own website. Everything they touch online is a joke.
Even the way spoiler season is handled is plain stupid. Announce a set, not show 1 damn card for it? Trickle information over months, and only at trade shows or conventions? Wait until the last 2 weeks before slowly giving the set away, framed so that initial buzz is high, then bait and switch a lousy, top-heavy set after the preorders have taken place?
I agree with you that it's somewhat apples and oranges comparing this to esports, but in defense of Sirius_B, they seem trapped in the stone age compared to what everyone else is doing.
What would be interesting is if one of the big video game companies bought WotC from Hasbro and completely overhauled the digital side of the game. But i doubt Hasbro would sell the golden goose so we aint going to see that happen. Look at the most recent set. Many say it is the worst big set in a decade (or more) but it sold like hot cakes because they put in a cute little gimmick that cost them virtually nothing. Why would they change anything?
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
I think just about everyone would love to have something for Magic the Gathering that is as well polished as Hearthstone is.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Exactly. If MODO was as polished as Hearthstone i would be on it all the time. As is i haven't updated since Rise of the Eldrazi. The bar for online games has gone up significantly the past 5 years and MODO is just fiddling around with layouts and meaningless features. Have leagues even come back?
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
I'm not an elite Magic player. In fact, I'm pretty blah- I generally finish 2-2 on FNM's, and ran out the door singing when I finished 5th out of 16 at 3-1 a couple weeks ago (WITH A FOIL BLIGHT HERDER!). I'm probably one of the weakest players on this forum, given everyone else seems to treat FNM and Gameday wins as no big deal. I went to the GP in Seattle and played a Standard event there, and didn't win a single match. I play a decent deck- Green Eldrazi Ramp with a splash of red. Its got a couple Ugins and Ulamogs and Atarkas, so its hardly budget, but its not exactly top of the line either. But I have fun with it.
But I get the overall sense that not enough people just enjoy the game for the sake of the game anymore. Too many Spikes and not enough Timmys and Vorthos. Everyone either wants to only play with an alpha competitive deck, or do limited where you open up a few packs of cards, make a forty card deck, then shove those cards into a storage box never to be heard from again.
And people talk about how cracking booster packs have no value. Why not just open one once in a while for fun? Just to see what you get? Especially when a set is just released. Even after all these years, theres still something magical (pardon the pun) about tearing off the foil and receiving a bunch of new cards you've never seen before.
I would be one of those older people (age 25+) that got back into the Pokemon TCG, not to play tournaments or anything competitive, but to build a Pokemon TCG Cube out of all the cool cards I used to play with as a kid. The result; my friends and I have a blast with it! Yes, it's a simpler game (no removal/counters etc.) but the 2v2 aspect of Cube translates surprisingly well to Pokemon and makes for exciting gameplay. The thing that surprised me when I was re-buying the cards for this cube was that most of the old cards held some value. They didn't really appreciate like Magic duels did but the cards that used to be competitive still carry 10-20$ price tags. My shadowless Charizard that I kept all this time still sells for 100$ despite being reprinted a few times!
I think many serious Magic players need to step back and realize that a game's quality does not need to come from a financial or competitive aspect but the amount of fun you're having with each game. I realized this when I cut down on Magic to buy more board games
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
- A few Tier 1 and 2 modern decks
- A few Tier 1 and 2 legacy decks
- six intro-type decks for teaching newbies (they cost a combined $40)
- A peasant cube (made of real cards)
- An in-process powered cube (made 100% of proxies)
- A full set of Commander 2013 decks (I might sell these, to be honest)
I've been selling off underused $5-20 cards to flesh out what I need to optimize my existing modern/legacy stuff, and I MIGHT build a couple more modern decks (like mono-red burn or mono-green stompy) to loan to my kids, but that's it. I'll probably never play standard again, although I do keep an eye out for new cards for my existing decks with each set... anything modern/legacy playable tends to be super expensive at first, but drops to something reasonable once they rotate out of standard.
My LGS runs standard and legacy with draft every other week. Draft is so anemic that I've shown up to find only one other person ready to play. Standard is where all the action is and where I go and they are all top tier decks. Honestly, the only real fun I had coming back was pre-release, I got destroyed but I had fun. You have standard, which when I looked a month ago you needed $400-500 min to make a top tier deck. I'm not poor, I have a good deal of income I can burn on hobbies but building a deck over the course of two months, knowing that the meta may turn against it or it may become useless when a set cycles is just too hard of a pill to swallow. If it was a hundred or two I could deal. Heck, I would do it without a second thought and honestly is what I foolishly did, I bought about $250 in sealed BFZ and Origins to find out 99.9% of it doesn't have a place in a competitive standard deck.
I also looked into legacy decks and yeah, I guess that's all I need to say.
On a positive note, I'm thoroughly enjoying EDH, playing it casually at the shop on occasion and with a few friends I convinced into buying the new 2015 pre-con.
I'm not sure how they fix this issue for new/returning players since they don't price the cards, it's people that drive value but I can say with certainty that I wanted to start playing again regularly...yet, I'm not going to now.
What's wrong with playing standard? What's wrong with playing with and enjoying new sets of cards as they come out? Hell, where's the fun in looking at a new set, picking out one card that set that you might use in an existing deck, and ignoring all the rest. You ignore 99% of everything that comes out, and think that you're the one Wizards is supposed to cater to?
Hell, I can't even play Modern right now- I don't have the collected base for it- everything I have is either too old (and my old stuff is way too horrible for Legacy), so Standards all I got. I figure in a few years I'll have enough to make a coherent neoModern deck. But those higher formats are strictly rewards for players who have managed to be collecting longer.
I disagree supporting eternal formats will lead to less profits and power creep long term. One thing you are forgetting is growth in the game. If you reprint eternal staples, then more people who play now will have access to cards, but new players will also buy-in to said formats. When these players buy-in they will likely entice their friends to buy-in as well. Power creep can be avoided by being smart, being creative with new cards and applying the ban hammer from time to time.
Also, I am a fairly new Magic player (started playing in October 2014). So far I have purchased hundreds of dollars in singles (a large portion of money spent on pricey eternal cards), one commander precon (monoblack 2014), one Morningtide booster pack and four Origins booster packs from a friend to draft with a group of friends. I've also won and received booster packs by purchasing over a specified $$ amount of singles. Aside from a foil Sigil Tracer from the Morningtide booster pack all the boosters I have cracked contained garbage. With cracking boosters on par with gambling I doubt I'll ever purchase boosters on par with how many singles I purchase and I'll likely continue to purchase virtually zero boosters unless said boosters start to contain eternal reprints or eternal relevant cards (translation: WOTC receives (and will continue to receive) virtually zero money from me). However, if WOTC wants my money they can start reprinting eternal staples and eternal relevant cards. While I may be alone here, I think there are many who would join me in buying more from WOTC if they started doing this.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Podcast
Or in the case of Modern Masters they released a product for that very reason, but it spiked interest in modern as a format which increased the price of non-reprinted singles. So in the case of modern masters increase supply = increase demand = no ease in overall format price.
WotC still has the fear of Chronicles in them so they are really stingy with their reprints.
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
WOTC does control secondary market to some extent via reprints, printing new cards that impact the meta, bans and what formats they choose to support. This is not a case of free market vs government owns everything. There are an infinite number of options on the spectrum (e.g. democratic socialism). I think many people are just asking WOTC to lean a little bit in the other direction and be a little more aggressive with reprints, printing new cards that impact the meta, bans, etc. One possible option that could work to support this would be setting a desired reasonable price for the average deck in each format and reprinting cards until this price point is reached.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
I'd like to jam together a weird combo or land destruction deck, but nope, wizards says these are not fun and I'd better turn some rhinos sideways. Well I'll tell you what, it's no fun losing to a guy who brings a full-powered Abzan/Jeskai/Esper deck from the latest GP to your local FNM. It's a savage beating. You know your janky brew stands almost no chances. It feels unfair.
I mean, what's the point of playing Standard if you losing both on money (right now you can buy most of modern decks for a price of a tier 1 standard deck and these are not going to rotate anytime soon) and fun (less deck diversity) sides?
In an ideal world they have lots of players continually buying product, some new players come in and and they don't lose too many players, and an equilibrium of sorts is formed.
That is close to what they have now, except a lot of players leave after a short time and new players join all the time- thanks to the massive free publicity of having a huge player base and a shop-driven system.
Unfortunately the same numbers of player were not playing ten and more years ago, bringing a huge disparity in scarcity of some cards. This is the real issue at the heart of the economic madness.
Wizards probably would not mind players with big, old collections cashing out, but they are the ones who do not need to, and in fact the value of their collections continues to grow so why would they? Even if their collections fell in playability the simple scarcity of the cards gives them an inherent value.
Wizards needs people to buy product and that means good draft environments, and refreshed standard environments- nothing drives 6-12 month players away like "boring" Standard with the same top cards as a year ago (eg Thoughtseize) but only 6-8 decks, most of which are actually quite similar- one aggro, a few control, a few midrange, few critterless strategies. Trouble is that entry to older formats is impossible for the young players with time and no money/life, so people must draft or play standard, the card sales are huge and the money ends up in a couple of standard powerhouses. In order to keep standard interesting rotation needs to be quick- even 18 months is too slow, but it is too fast for people who naturally see it as a money pit- which it is.
Keeping 6 month players happy and 3-4 year players happy is impossible- their needs are diametrically opposed.
I would draw the analogy with the old rental TV market in the 80's/70's. People could not afford to buy TVs, and had to rent- worse value, worse deal, no choice. Standard is renting a TV, 2015 style.
3-4 year players thus move on to Modern as soon as they can but there are an awful lot of them all looking for a way in. Cheap cards that are used in one or two decks only cards suddenly become expensive as a consequence- Serra Ascendant, for example. A bottleneck is formed- lot of people wanting out, limited cards spare, prices likely to thus skyrocket.
EDH muddies the waters- a mediocre Modern card that is awesome in EDH thus costs a lot- think Idyllic Tutor.
Wizards thus has to make sure they keep this EDH market happy- and thanks to no rotation that tends to be the easiest task. Here is the bolt hole for people. Trouble is it is a format that clearly is not for everyone.
Modern players and Legacy players do not need Standard- but as long as they are expensive the 2-3 veteran standard players will be stuck at the bottom looking for a life raft out. That means that as long as numbers remain high the sets will be full of chaff- they can't reprint all the nutty modern staples because what will happen is they then create a market where few people ever buy standard- why would you when you have waited 2 or more years to get your Modern deck? They can't change standard to put in cards to shake up Modern too much, as they would dominate Standard and Wizards needs people to keep opening those boosters.
The net result is people at each end of the spectrum are well catered for- early casual/kitchen table/ my first Standard event and Legacy vets. As you get further away from those extremes the worse it becomes for the players. Add in the perceived need to keep big companies happy and it is a huge mess.
Finally two issues: the NWO gives us the issue that they want the game to be friendly to the new guy- weak counters, strong critters, weak removal, no landkill/prison, and games that go on 20 odd mins. That of course is all very well but leads us to a stagnating and expensive Modern, little from Std feeding in, where the top decks play all the best cards and nothing punishes them for it, whilst all the linear decks they will ever make will be weaker than ones already in Modern.
Then what players want is for them to have more access to cards, but for their expensive collections to not drop to zero- Chronicles style.
Hurray - "I can now get five dime cryptics/goyfs".......6 months later- " I ambored now, everyone is playing cryptic/goyf- and all the new cards are worse.......think I will quit." See what I mean?
Who cares what it *feels* like? Feelings are worthless.
If a deck is inherently unfair to the point of being broken, it will be rectified. WOTC has always done a decent job about that. If its not- there's ways around it. Understand the metagame at your store and think of ways to counteract it. No deck is invincible. And sorry your experimental deck failed, but thats what happens to experiments.
If you feel standard is pointless, you stop buying into it. And that feels bad for WOTC.
I doubt they'll notice. There's enough players with open minds and creativity who are willing to evolve and broaden their horizons to keep buying new sets.
If they quit because they kept losing it simply means they weren't good enough and lacked the patience to become so. Evolution does have its victims after all.
Every deck, even the ridiculously expensive ones, can be solved. Its simply a matter of gaining the experience and knowledge you need to figure out how to do it. You're going to take lumps along the way.
I guess my LGS owner cares as less people are showing up for Standard nights.
I was unaware that Tarmogoyf is in Standard.
Peace, bro... I misspoke.
Nothing whatsoever is wrong with playing standard if that's what you like. I don't play enough to justify the cost, and I honestly find it a bit boring, but that's subjective. Yes, a standard deck is cheaper than a modern deck, but once you've got a couple modern decks, they are very cheap to maintain compared to standard.
I do NOT think Wizards should cater to any one group more than others, although I suspect if they supported modern and legacy more (by providing enough reprints to make them affordable to more people), they would find a lot of people buying product to enter those formats. It wouldn't help me personally much... I've got my duals/fetches/shocks and goyfs/lilis/snappy/cryptic, ect. And while I have been playing a long time, the majority of my money cards I've acquired over the last 3 years. I'm definitely not one of those guys that got in early and is sitting on dozens of beta moxes and duals (though I now wish I'd sucked it up and bought a set of power & duals back when I could have got the whole shebang for about a grand).
All of those can be dealt with cheaply. Gideon with a Stasis Snare (you'd have to wait for him to use his creature ability, of course). Jace with a Wild slash. Ojutai would trade with a Shivan. Again, no strategy is invincible. Would it be tougher to win with cheaper cards? Absolutely- the cards that are more expensive are that because they help you win better. But its not impossible, skill is still heavily involved.
Hell, I bet if you were to give a top level magic player a common/uncommon playset from any Standard set and told him to make a deck with just that, he still build one that would destroy you or I.