I don't have a problem with proxies. I'm always letting ppl play proxied decks if they want to try something new before commiting or testing new deck ideas. But I do think it cheapens the game.
What I mean is it makes it less fun IMO. My fondest memories are slamming Hymn to Tourach and Lightning Bolts, swinging with Shivan Dragons pumped with Giant Growths. Playing with proxies doesn't attach those memories to the game or cards you keep around for years. That's the only issue I have with proxies. I don't really care about the money or anything.
Don't bother trying to defend yourself. The two people I most recently quoted have shown no regard for what the play group, or the player, thinks. I absolutely agree with you, and after my friends have read the OP and replies, they have come to agree too. Some of our fondest memories were of making the cards we had work. We grew attached to those cards, and cracking a booster to discover a planeswalker inside, or purchasing a single for a deck you have been working on, is a far more amazing feel than any proxy has provided. My one friend who recently was huge on proxying has now turned around and said that he will only play with proxy until he acquires at least 50% of the deck, because otherwise a lot of the fun is removed.
Even with that aside, I still believe that the playgroup matters. These people who are disregarding the playgroup in favor of saying "they are allowed to" as an excuse are really missing out on the point of the game, which is to have fun with your friends while they are having fun. If your playgroup isn't ok with it, then it simply ISN'T ok to do with them. If you continue to do it, then you are selfish, inconsiderate, and missing the true purpose of the game.
Proxying is fine by me. I play casual 90% of the time and it's so expensive to build even the cheapest of modern decks that it can take months of picking out single cards to put together some of the ones being played. Not to mention some cards like Snapcaster mage and the enemy onslaught fetches are so expensive many people may never even buy the card, so the only option is to proxy them.
When a card costs as much or more than a AAA released video game, there is something wrong with the entire situation, because that single card is not even close to being competitively priced.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Proxying is fine by me. I play casual 90% of the time and it's so expensive to build even the cheapest of modern decks that it can take months of picking out single cards to put together some of the ones being played. Not to mention some cards like Snapcaster mage and the enemy onslaught fetches are so expensive many people may never even buy the card, so the only option is to proxy them.
When a card costs as much or more than a AAA released video game, there is something wrong with the entire situation, because that single card is not even close to being competitively priced.
I kind of feel this is where the point of magic steps in. If a card is too pricey, don't play it. I compare MTG to a video game in which you earn credits to buy new gear. Sure, you can decide to cheat when playing with your friends by giving everyone every piece of gear, but that's not the way the game is meant to be played.
I find that when people proxy, they do so as an alternative to finding ways to make their cards work. In my opinion, it's far more fun to see someone find a way to max out a simplistic card, such as "Geth's Verdict", rather than see them play some expensive combo that we won't care about a week later. It's part of the progression of the game. As my one friend puts it, the biggest fun in magic comes from working with what you got, and making what you got work. When you start playing the most expensive cards, it means there is less variety, because lesser decks barely stand a chance. Ultimately, I always say, if you've never gotten attached to a card that may or may not be a great card, you aren't playing magic right.
That being said, if you are proxying the cheapest modern decks (a budget is usually 60 dollars) in casual play, there is nothing at all wrong with this. 1. Your group is ok with it, 2. You are playing casual. The issues only arise when your playgroup isn't ok with it, or when you are trying to play outside of casual.
If the problem is that they are making overpowered decks, they would be just as overpowered if they had bought the cards.
That is a problem with a solution: Tell them to stop being a tryhard or they can't play with you.
Proxies are fine by me. If someone didn't want me to play proxies I would probably check and see if the decks I own are of equivalent power to theirs, and if not then that person and I would not play magic together. I used to play my casual $5-$100 decks against $300-$3,000 dollar decks, but life is too short to spend it getting salty and losing to spikes.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
As long as the proxies look nice, I have zero problem with them.
Those who purchase real cards purchase the right to use them in sanctioned tournaments, as well as the right to potentially re-sell them in the future. If you have no interest in either of these things, then proxies are a good way to go.
Also, by allowing proxies, you're promoting more variety in your games as players will have access to different decks that they may not have otherwise.
The only exception for me is Old School Magic, as part of the prestige of the format is acquiring the actual cards.
I have less fun playing with and against proxies because they're less attractive than a real card. Still, I support it in casual play, up to 100% proxies. Most of my Commander decks are in the $400-1,000 range and will trounce a precon out of the box. Even a relatively budget deck is a few hundred. I can afford this hobby because I've been collecting for a long time and trade intelligently, but if I say "no proxies," I'll never convince any of my friends to invest in a deck to play against me against me.
Ive always felt that it depends on the gorup of freinds. the topic is too subjective and qualitative to be measured accurately with good or bad right or wrong. IMO i enjoy making token proxy and every once in awhile i will proxy a stupid expensive card just to try it out, but it feels fake and i want the real copy if i do that.
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Don't bother trying to defend yourself. The two people I most recently quoted have shown no regard for what the play group, or the player, thinks. I absolutely agree with you, and after my friends have read the OP and replies, they have come to agree too. Some of our fondest memories were of making the cards we had work. We grew attached to those cards, and cracking a booster to discover a planeswalker inside, or purchasing a single for a deck you have been working on, is a far more amazing feel than any proxy has provided. My one friend who recently was huge on proxying has now turned around and said that he will only play with proxy until he acquires at least 50% of the deck, because otherwise a lot of the fun is removed.
Even with that aside, I still believe that the playgroup matters. These people who are disregarding the playgroup in favor of saying "they are allowed to" as an excuse are really missing out on the point of the game, which is to have fun with your friends while they are having fun. If your playgroup isn't ok with it, then it simply ISN'T ok to do with them. If you continue to do it, then you are selfish, inconsiderate, and missing the true purpose of the game.
When a card costs as much or more than a AAA released video game, there is something wrong with the entire situation, because that single card is not even close to being competitively priced.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I kind of feel this is where the point of magic steps in. If a card is too pricey, don't play it. I compare MTG to a video game in which you earn credits to buy new gear. Sure, you can decide to cheat when playing with your friends by giving everyone every piece of gear, but that's not the way the game is meant to be played.
I find that when people proxy, they do so as an alternative to finding ways to make their cards work. In my opinion, it's far more fun to see someone find a way to max out a simplistic card, such as "Geth's Verdict", rather than see them play some expensive combo that we won't care about a week later. It's part of the progression of the game. As my one friend puts it, the biggest fun in magic comes from working with what you got, and making what you got work. When you start playing the most expensive cards, it means there is less variety, because lesser decks barely stand a chance. Ultimately, I always say, if you've never gotten attached to a card that may or may not be a great card, you aren't playing magic right.
That being said, if you are proxying the cheapest modern decks (a budget is usually 60 dollars) in casual play, there is nothing at all wrong with this. 1. Your group is ok with it, 2. You are playing casual. The issues only arise when your playgroup isn't ok with it, or when you are trying to play outside of casual.
That is a problem with a solution: Tell them to stop being a tryhard or they can't play with you.
On differences in opinion, consider your values and the possibility of compromise.
Usually you'll find the benefits of companionship outweigh the annoyances.
But maybe not.
If you're doing it because you want to play with P9 cards and think that's the key to beating your friends in casual play, then you're a dick.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
Those who purchase real cards purchase the right to use them in sanctioned tournaments, as well as the right to potentially re-sell them in the future. If you have no interest in either of these things, then proxies are a good way to go.
Also, by allowing proxies, you're promoting more variety in your games as players will have access to different decks that they may not have otherwise.
The only exception for me is Old School Magic, as part of the prestige of the format is acquiring the actual cards.
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)