Interesting times.
One thing I suppose to be important in this debate is the nature of the MTG cards value. For example, post stamps all have nominal value - 10 cents, or 100 yen, or such; you may collect stamps, or you may use them to send your letters. Money also have their nominal value - 10 USD, 5 Euro and so on. The value of cards is non-existent, to be honest - Magic cards hold no value outside of the community, and one should never expect his collection to serve as any kind of payment means and/or investment. You're bought a Black Lotus for $3500? Okay then Its your money and its up to you if you want to spend them that way. It doesnt mean that Black Lotus's value is $3500 - only indicates your desire to pay for it. You may have bought a trunk of bottle caps instead - there's no real difference.
The production of counterfeits violates copyright of the commercical project of WotC - ergo, the criminal is the producer, not the player. If someone manage to print a bunch of Monopoly boxes and sell them through Ebay - its not your problem if you bought them, its the headache for the Hasbro lawyers; if somewhere in Korea a bunch of fake Dodge Vipers was assembled, noone ever gonna get into a jail for buying one - only for selling them. Wizards just cheat at this point, making the players responsible for the things they should never care of, period.
So: 1) there's nothing in common between counterfeit bills and counterfeit cards
2) if you want to invest - buy oil stocks, silver bars, guns. Don't buy things with zero value.
3) The counterfeits and counterfeiters are Wizards problem, inspired by Wizards reprint policy and existing due to overinflated prices on WotC's product; players should not be involved in this battle ever: you take our money, you give us cards and solve all the s%&*t I don't care how
That's my 5 cents
Just because you can't sell a Black Louts outside of the community does not mean it has no value though. That's a fallacy. By your logic nothing in the world has value because there are people that wouldn't ascribe value to it. A cell phone wouldn't be worth as much as food to a starving person in Africa, yet here in the US a cellphone costs way more than a loaf of bread. A truckload of bottlecaps you paid $3500 is still worth $3500 if I can find someone else who agrees to pay me that amount for them. That's how prices work.
And I don't get how you don't think counterfeits hurt the players as well. If you bought the cards and then were disqualified from a tournament for using them then it is definitely a problem to you now. Is WotC supposed to allow counterfeit cards into tournaments?
Your dodge example has no bearing on the conversation because you're talking about legal trouble now. Companies are not part of the legal system. They are allowed to run things like a tournament as they see fit. What your example should look at is if there were a bunch of fake Dodge Vipers assembled in Korea that you purchased. You decide to take it to a race Dodge is hosting to see who the best Viper driver is. You are then disqualified because you don't have a real Dodge Viper. That is perfectly legal and no one is going to put you in jail because you didn't break the government's law. You are going to be negatively affected because of the counterfeiter though.
This is the result of a problem they refuse to fix. When the value of the individual pieces is more important to them than the ability to play the game this is an increasing element in collecting (and it directly affects tournament play). As a result the appearance of counterfeits is going to become more and more frequent. If you would actually quit playing the game (honest self-evaluation) because your cards didn't hold "value" than you're part of the reason this problem exists. This is not a slight against collectors. It's an honest observation that counterfeits exist because they've made it profitable to do so (on a level beyond the ultra-rare mistake/collector's cards on the Reserve list). The question is how we, as a playing community, respond to this new reality.
Actually, its the problem of the mindset of some people. "i want to play what i want but dont want to pay the price for that so i rather cheat" is not a result of the reserved list, its a result of a mindset that tells you that you should take whatever you want. In the past we (as a society) had issues about "piracy" about movies, music, and video games. Thats actually the same issue, there is just no reserved list to act as an excuse.
You try to blame wizards for that, but that´s just haggling over the price. Sure, it might be profitable for counterfeiters to work with the reserved list, but that holds true even for standard, where every card is actually in print.
If I have a counterfeit Lotus, and a real one, and put one into a deck, what's the difference in the game? If they both read exactly the same and do exactly the same thing? The difference you're talking about has absolutely NOTHING to do with playing the game, and everything to do with economics and personal income. Why should that matter at all for a card game? Why should something beyond the scope of the game have any influence at all on the outcome of the game? A match should ideally be won or lost based on several things, but "I didn't have $500 for my manabase, so I had to use a cheaper, less effective version" is a terrible reason to have to play a worse version of a deck.
Ok, so your reasoning is: If I cant afford an appartment or house to live in, I should rob a bank? If a person somehow cannot afford something, that is called life. Every person has a chance to become what he or she wants, but very little actually succeed because of our nature.
Another example: A natural diamond and an artificially grown one look the same and are both of the same quality (the differences are in the inside structure, not visible to the eye). Yet one is a true diamond and the other is is just a fake. GO figure..
Bottomline: even if its a card game, you should not play with fakes. Its bad for the integrity of the game and bad for all other players playing it fairly.
If the government decides there can only be houses for 100 million people in their population of 10,000 million people. Yes, I support the homeless revolution.
Stop being so dense about a victimless crime caused by a greedy bunch of <****tards> coercing a company into killing the format.
On the topic, I once noticed my oponent was playing a trimmed Collectors Edition Tundra in his deck at a GP side event. I didn't say ***** because **** pay to play, **** the collectors, **** the resserved list and **** whomever decided not to ax it. You're the reason why SCG now cut their support to the format and Legacy is now pretty much dead.
You get a game loss, your cards are replaced with basic lands.
Of course, I find it highly unlikely that player A UNKNOWLINGLY playing proxies but his opponent (or someone else in the audience) managed to detect it without touching the cards and through sleeves. It's like trying to pay a your groceries with a $3 bill then claiming you didn't know it was fake,
Usually this is right. However, believe it or not, sometimes people just don't know. I'll tell you a little story.
My brother's friend knew a guy who played in our play group of Vintage players (although my brother's friend and I also played other formats). This guy had bought Beta Power 9 on Ebay. Some news came around that there were some fakes going around, so he decided to finally get them "checked." It turned out that 7 of the Power 9 were fake. The guy was so distraught about finding out that he had bought FAKE Power 9 from Ebay that he just gave his Bomber Man deck to my brother's friend and quit Magic. I know this for sure because my brother's friend sold some of those very cards here on mtgsalvation and was banned many years ago. (This all happened about 8-9 years ago.)
So, not everyone will potentially know if their cards are fake. Nowadays, I would be hard pressed to find someone who buys Power 9 (or even several other cards) without checking for authenticity, but it all depends on the buyer. Not everyone has the same mind set.
Reared what I posted.
1) Player not knowing his cards were fake.
2) Opponent knowing cards were fake, despite the sleeves.
If an opponent can tell the card was fake, but the owner did not, I find that suspicious.
Your story has nothing to do with the scenario I posted.
The fact that the player got DQ'd instead of his cards being replaced by basic lands would indicate that the counterfeits were particularly obvious and his guilt unquestionable -- maybe even plain printed paper.
I don't understand the rulings and WotC then.
If you want to minimize counterfeiting, then make a program for it where people can send you cards and if they are counterfeit, they can replace your cards; if they are not, they send you the cards back. You pay shipping and handling of course but otherwise the thing is free.
But now, they punish players for using counterfeit cards even if they didn't know... that's just like punishing users over producers without letting the users a chance to figure out legitimately if they are in the wrong. Whereas counterfeiters have absolutely no reason to NOT counterfeit and every reason to get better at it.
So, I print up fake cards, send it to Wizards, they send me real ones?
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This is the result of a problem they refuse to fix. When the value of the individual pieces is more important to them than the ability to play the game this is an increasing element in collecting (and it directly affects tournament play). As a result the appearance of counterfeits is going to become more and more frequent. If you would actually quit playing the game (honest self-evaluation) because your cards didn't hold "value" than you're part of the reason this problem exists. This is not a slight against collectors. It's an honest observation that counterfeits exist because they've made it profitable to do so (on a level beyond the ultra-rare mistake/collector's cards on the Reserve list). The question is how we, as a playing community, respond to this new reality.
Actually, its the problem of the mindset of some people. "i want to play what i want but dont want to pay the price for that so i rather cheat" is not a result of the reserved list, its a result of a mindset that tells you that you should take whatever you want. In the past we (as a society) had issues about "piracy" about movies, music, and video games. Thats actually the same issue, there is just no reserved list to act as an excuse.
You try to blame wizards for that, but that´s just haggling over the price. Sure, it might be profitable for counterfeiters to work with the reserved list, but that holds true even for standard, where every card is actually in print.
If I have a counterfeit Lotus, and a real one, and put one into a deck, what's the difference in the game? If they both read exactly the same and do exactly the same thing? The difference you're talking about has absolutely NOTHING to do with playing the game, and everything to do with economics and personal income. Why should that matter at all for a card game? Why should something beyond the scope of the game have any influence at all on the outcome of the game? A match should ideally be won or lost based on several things, but "I didn't have $500 for my manabase, so I had to use a cheaper, less effective version" is a terrible reason to have to play a worse version of a deck.
Ok, so your reasoning is: If I cant afford an appartment or house to live in, I should rob a bank? If a person somehow cannot afford something, that is called life. Every person has a chance to become what he or she wants, but very little actually succeed because of our nature.
And this relates to playing a game how? A game needs to be fair, and a game that starts with one player having an advantage due to the size of their disposable income is explicitly not a fair game.
Another example: A natural diamond and an artificially grown one look the same and are both of the same quality (the differences are in the inside structure, not visible to the eye). Yet one is a true diamond and the other is is just a fake. GO figure..
1: For all purposes EXCEPT jewelry, the "fake" diamonds are diamonds, full stop. The only reason they aren't considered "real" for jewelry is...
2: The diamond market is a monopoly, creating artificial scarcity and using clever marketing and leveraging the fact that they control supply, including...
3: "Blood diamonds" are diamonds, and are a thing BECAUSE the artificial scarcity created by the monopoly. They exist because the monopoly tht controls the diamond market keeps prices high on a relatively common resource they cornered the market on.
Bottomline: even if its a card game, you should not play with fakes. Its bad for the integrity of the game and bad for all other players playing it fairly.
The integrity of the game? Hilarious. So integrity is related to the money you spand on it. But tactics like playing to put your opponent on tilt, mind games, and playing to win at any costs, those are perfectly fine? Integrity is how you play the game, not how much money you spend on it. Playing with counterfeits is cheating not for integrity reasons, but for financial reasons: WotC wants to keep their monopoly. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but do you consider people who enter proxy tournaments to ALL be cheating? Is there no integrity to be had in an entire room full of people in an unsanctioned tournament who are playing with unofficial cards?
You don't buy integrity. Cheating IS wrong, and knowingly going to a tournament with counterfeit cards is cheating. But the counterfeit rules aren't about integrity. They're about money, maintaining a monopoly, and WotC's bottom line.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Discussion of a DQ that has not been resolved by the Investigations Committee is a Very Bad Thing™ & is not permitted here. Focus on what was announced by WotC, not the information that might prejudice the investigation should the IC ask for statements from anyone else who was there (such as you.) Do NOT disclose nonpublic information about an unresolved DQ, here or anywhere.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
I don't understand the rulings and WotC then.
If you want to minimize counterfeiting, then make a program for it where people can send you cards and if they are counterfeit, they can replace your cards; if they are not, they send you the cards back. You pay shipping and handling of course but otherwise the thing is free.
Even if that were valid do you think that Wizards just has to pull up a Bayou image on their computer and press 'print'?
A game needs to be fair, and a game that starts with one player having an advantage due to the size of their disposable income is explicitly not a fair game.
MTG is not a fair game. When you sit down to play a game, even if both of you have spent the same on your deck, do you think that neither player starts with an advantage? Perhaps we should make a list of 5 decks that are objectively equal against each other and players can only play those, because that way no one starts with an advantage.
One player not being able to play because they can't afford it would exist even if all cards cost $.01 - I know I can't afford to fly out of state, rent a hotel, and eat out for the time it would take me to play in a GP. Should Wizards pay my way to make sure everything's equal? Or, they could have GPs in every state and make it against the rules to play in an out of state GP because it might mean someone couldn't afford to go. That sound reasonable? Wait, what about people from really big states?
Wizards is far more concerned with how reprints hurt the FLGS than it is with private collectors. Reprinting MTG until it is worthless means that many places where people love to go and play will go under. Less places to play means it's harder to start playing, which means the player base declines, which means all that money that wizards is paying to have all your Moxen printed to death so that everyone that wants one can have one will be greater than the income, and Hasbro will just stop making MTG.
All the people that put the fault on Wizards for the counterfeit problem are absurd. Then again some people think that if they want something they should be able to have it no matter what.
I feel the community is thinking too much. Don't let fairness cloud your judgment.
Relative to WotC:
1) Does counterfeit cards affect their primary source of income sufficiently?
No.
2) Does counterfeit cards affect their tournaments sufficiently?
No.
3) Does counterfeit cards affect players sufficiently?
No.
4) Does counterfeit cards affect competitive players, playing in tournaments?
Yes.
Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't this group of players the lowest percentage? Why should WotC spend effort, time and resources to actively police counterfeit card sellers then?
What is the minimum effort WotC has to exert to police? Basically, during checks and tip offs.
I will not compare this incident to counterfeit currency. I compared this incident to prostitution.
If there is demand, there will be supply. If players are paying that much, its only a matter of time before alternative sources will appear.
Is there any offical letter/rule/standard from WotC how to check cards for their authenticity?
Because if not that is the first major problem.
I agree, but on the other hand setting a method simple gives counterfeiters a specific test that they need to fool. It is not an easy solution, and even if there is an established test they are all still subjective. Any test that would work for MTG cards to relies on the tester's ability catch fakes.
There are two types of people that get counterfeits:
1) The guy that gets them to resell for the price of the original card, as if the counterfeit was the original card. This, to me (and I believe to everyone else as well), is despicable.
2) The guy that gets them so he can play with the cards. Now there are two subsections here:
- People that play with the cards casually, and I see no problem at all in that, casually you can use Pokemon cards as lightning bolts if you want
- People that play with the cards in tournaments, where you might receive cash prizes
For this last group, I see no problem at all, but this is my personal opinion. You didn't lose the game because the tundra from your opponent was fake, or the 4 bobs in his deck. You lost because a combination of superior luck and skill of your opponent beated you. That is it. The origin of the cards had NOTHING to do with that. Me, in particular, I like to play with original cards, and only very rarely use proxies even to just test ideas in commander decks. From a moral perspective, I wouldn't mind if tournaments allowed people to use gold-bordered cards, perfect proxies or anything similar instead of real original cards.
From a comercial perspective, I'm aware that, up until some point, this is idiotic. If I can proxy a Bob then why would I buy Modern Masters 2? Why would I try to get khans fetchlands? This is still a card game where reprints are a good part of the incentive to keep buying boxes.
Now, what is the excuse for the moxen? Or the Old Duals? Or Black Lotuses? WE ARE NEVER GETTING THESE BACK. And why does wizards never reprint wasteland or force of will? (in any relevant way other than judge promos). Why they let these cards get more expensive by the second? These cards, these cards in particular, that will never be reprinted ever, or that are virtually in a 'reserved list' of their own because they are hardly reprinted, these cards I'm morally AND commercially fine with using as proxies. And if someone would play me using them as proxies, all power to them. I really don't mind.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Slightly different shades of frame color are a common issue with the early sets like Urza's Saga. This happened in part because at that point, two different contractors were printing Magic (Sheppard Poorman had started with Mirage & was still printing cards stateside at that point) and quality control/consistency wasn't the best even in the same printing facility.
This actually scares me. I have four Time Spirals from Urza's Saga and three of them are a different shade of Blue than the other one. When I received the other three, I used a magnifying glass to make sure they were real (i.e. the print quality of the text, the dots in the printing itself that is near impossible to copy, etc.). I also have 8 Force of Wills that I personally opened in Alliance packs and when you look at them all, a subset of them look different than the others. Your post basically confirms to me that what I've seen for years is legit and not counterfeit.
However, this sounds like if I used them in a tournament, an opponent could call me out for the same thing because they look different and I'll be DQ'ed or worse my cards ripped up. Even though I've verified them rather meticulously. I don't imagine the Judge will do the same thing and simply compare the colors and not realize the history as you noted.
Actually, its the problem of the mindset of some people. "i want to play what i want but dont want to pay the price for that so i rather cheat" is not a result of the reserved list, its a result of a mindset that tells you that you should take whatever you want. In the past we (as a society) had issues about "piracy" about movies, music, and video games. Thats actually the same issue, there is just no reserved list to act as an excuse.
You try to blame wizards for that, but that´s just haggling over the price. Sure, it might be profitable for counterfeiters to work with the reserved list, but that holds true even for standard, where every card is actually in print.
If I have a counterfeit Lotus, and a real one, and put one into a deck, what's the difference in the game? If they both read exactly the same and do exactly the same thing? The difference you're talking about has absolutely NOTHING to do with playing the game, and everything to do with economics and personal income. Why should that matter at all for a card game? Why should something beyond the scope of the game have any influence at all on the outcome of the game? A match should ideally be won or lost based on several things, but "I didn't have $500 for my manabase, so I had to use a cheaper, less effective version" is a terrible reason to have to play a worse version of a deck.
Ok, so your reasoning is: If I cant afford an appartment or house to live in, I should rob a bank? If a person somehow cannot afford something, that is called life. Every person has a chance to become what he or she wants, but very little actually succeed because of our nature.
Another example: A natural diamond and an artificially grown one look the same and are both of the same quality (the differences are in the inside structure, not visible to the eye). Yet one is a true diamond and the other is is just a fake. GO figure..
Bottomline: even if its a card game, you should not play with fakes. Its bad for the integrity of the game and bad for all other players playing it fairly.
If you make this kind of comparison (robbery), I don't think this discussion has any sense. People at wotc and DCI had enough time to really address the issue of fake cards, yet nothing except more meaningless actions are taken here (holograms). The sad thing is that we, regular players have apparently little to none influence on WOTC, because so called traders and 'collectors' truly own the market.
Yes, it has. You cannot do the wrong thing just because something is out of reach for you. In both cases you have done something against the law, although for MTG you actually wont be prosecuted (even though he should be since there are actual money prizes here).
Also, the prices are not driven just by the "traders" and "collectors", but mostly by players. Most of the players are also collectors, in one way or another. Most players are also traders, whether via MCM or some other site.. So we ourselves make demand and supply. I buy a lot of cards, but NEVER from a dealer or a store (at least not if he doesnt have cheap prices). If everyone would do that, then the dealers would be forced to lower their high prices and the market would be even better for us.
The only problem I see is the reserved list, which is a problem, I agree, but in the same time, would you want to lose thousands of dollars on playsets of reserved cards if they got reprinted? I sure as hell would not, nor would any normal and honest person, players included.
/out
I don't think Wizards would recklessly reprint expensive cards like they did with Chronicles, that was several years ago. They have shown us that they care about players' collections and reprint cards very carefully in supplemental products (Modern Masters and Conspiracy).
All the people that put the fault on Wizards for the counterfeit problem are absurd. Then again some people think that if they want something they should be able to have it no matter what.
1) Wizards creates a huge demand for cards by making a great game. Awesome. Everyone loves this part.
2) Wizards refuses to create the supply to meet the demand. Not awesome, but Wizards isn't required to do so. Its disappointing, but I can't complain about that.
3) Wizards creates a system that denies third parties the ability to meet the demand. This is where it is clear that the problem is created by Wizards. The combination of refusing to meet demand plus denying the ability for others to meet demand is definitively monopolistic behavior. It is clearly detrimental to the consumer.
Of course if you create this sort of market people will make counterfeits. The barrier to entry to creating is low and the scarcity of the product is not from a lack of raw materials or availability of manufacturing infrastructure. Its completely artificial. The price of Magic cards doesn't reflect any reality of the world's ability to produce paper game components.
I'm not saying the I approve of counterfeiting. I don't. The real solution would be for people to start an alternate competitive scene where non-counterfeit third party products (that fulfill the function without violating copyright) are allowed in sanctioned play. However, if such a thing were to take off it would tank demand for first party products which could cause interruptions in the development of the game which is certainly not what any of us want. Even though its "wrong", having counterfeiters help meet demand is probably "right" for the health of the game. Too many people are invested in the current model for it to change, accepting that people will illegally address the market imbalance is probably better then trying to correct that imbalance. That imbalance is what makes Magic worth so much money.
Once Legacy is finally dead, the price of those cards will plummet. and I guess plenty collectors will then blame WotC for making them lose money on cardboard meant for a game with no inherent value.
Once Legacy is dead, only serious EDH players and collectors will have a need for many of the expensive cards that refuse access to the format.
Not to derail this thread even further, but I think you seriously underestimate the impact of Vintage players, powered Cubes, and price memory.
By your logic, Mishra's Workshop and other Vintage staples should be dirt cheap because Vintage is dead, amirite?
Back on topic, has there been any official follow-up or anything on this?
I just think that wizards is responsible for fakes. If they refuse to increase supply to meet demand, then the market will correct however it can. That said, I feel like knowingly paying for fakes is really stupid. On the other hand, winning by default because some dude has to use shocklands in his legacy delver deck isn't really all that fun.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Once Legacy is finally dead, the price of those cards will plummet. and I guess plenty collectors will then blame WotC for making them lose money on cardboard meant for a game with no inherent value.
Once Legacy is dead, only serious EDH players and collectors will have a need for many of the expensive cards that refuse access to the format.
Not to derail this thread even further, but I think you seriously underestimate the impact of Vintage players, powered Cubes, and price memory.
By your logic, Mishra's Workshop and other Vintage staples should be dirt cheap because Vintage is dead, amirite?
Back on topic, has there been any official follow-up or anything on this?
This. And Legacy players are not going to quit for the most part. They have simply invested too much or enjoy the format. I do know a guy who quit Legacy because we just don't have the support locally (50 mi away is a bit for a high schooler). I feel badly because we did have a Sunday scene, but I couldn't always attend. Slowly, fewer people came until it was nobody.
But the number of players that stop play Legacy is far fewer than the Modern players that I see who want to start Legacy. It is really a slow build for them and often they have to go with budget decks like Oops, All Spells, but they do truly want to go into Legacy. When I go to a Legacy GPT 50 mi away, I see most of the same old guys, along with 10-15% newer guys. Sometimes I see guys who quit Magic, but it looks like they've started again with Legacy.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't this group of players the lowest percentage? Why should WotC spend effort, time and resources to actively police counterfeit card sellers then?
What is the minimum effort WotC has to exert to police? Basically, during checks and tip offs.
I will not compare this incident to counterfeit currency. I compared this incident to prostitution.
If there is demand, there will be supply. If players are paying that much, its only a matter of time before alternative sources will appear.
If Wizards doesn't atleast put forth a good faith effort to go after counterfeit's it weakens or destroys their copyright claim which has wider implications. Thus, Wizards will say anything they need to in order to demonize fakes. Even if it doesn't directly hurt their bottom line it still has a big impact on the company.
If Wizards doesn't atleast put forth a good faith effort to go after counterfeit's it weakens or destroys their copyright claim which has wider implications. Thus, Wizards will say anything they need to in order to demonize fakes. Even if it doesn't directly hurt their bottom line it still has a big impact on the company.
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I seem to recall that copyright validity is not based on whether or not they address all perceived violations. That is a part of patent law, but not copyright.
I'm trying to be as discrete as possible, but still give information to who wants it. There is information on Wizard's website that looks into not 1, but 2 players that were DQed for different reasons in rounds 4 and 5 of that particular GP if anyone's interested.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
If Wizards doesn't atleast put forth a good faith effort to go after counterfeit's it weakens or destroys their copyright claim which has wider implications. Thus, Wizards will say anything they need to in order to demonize fakes. Even if it doesn't directly hurt their bottom line it still has a big impact on the company.
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I seem to recall that copyright validity is not based on whether or not they address all perceived violations. That is a part of patent law, but not copyright.
Looking at it more you're right, copyrights can't be lost, you can just choose to defend it or not. Trademarks on the other hand which Magic also has can be weakened or lost if you don't defend them and counterfeit cards would fall under that.
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Just because you can't sell a Black Louts outside of the community does not mean it has no value though. That's a fallacy. By your logic nothing in the world has value because there are people that wouldn't ascribe value to it. A cell phone wouldn't be worth as much as food to a starving person in Africa, yet here in the US a cellphone costs way more than a loaf of bread. A truckload of bottlecaps you paid $3500 is still worth $3500 if I can find someone else who agrees to pay me that amount for them. That's how prices work.
And I don't get how you don't think counterfeits hurt the players as well. If you bought the cards and then were disqualified from a tournament for using them then it is definitely a problem to you now. Is WotC supposed to allow counterfeit cards into tournaments?
Your dodge example has no bearing on the conversation because you're talking about legal trouble now. Companies are not part of the legal system. They are allowed to run things like a tournament as they see fit. What your example should look at is if there were a bunch of fake Dodge Vipers assembled in Korea that you purchased. You decide to take it to a race Dodge is hosting to see who the best Viper driver is. You are then disqualified because you don't have a real Dodge Viper. That is perfectly legal and no one is going to put you in jail because you didn't break the government's law. You are going to be negatively affected because of the counterfeiter though.
If the government decides there can only be houses for 100 million people in their population of 10,000 million people. Yes, I support the homeless revolution.
Stop being so dense about a victimless crime caused by a greedy bunch of <****tards> coercing a company into killing the format.
On the topic, I once noticed my oponent was playing a trimmed Collectors Edition Tundra in his deck at a GP side event. I didn't say ***** because **** pay to play, **** the collectors, **** the resserved list and **** whomever decided not to ax it. You're the reason why SCG now cut their support to the format and Legacy is now pretty much dead.
Reared what I posted.
1) Player not knowing his cards were fake.
2) Opponent knowing cards were fake, despite the sleeves.
If an opponent can tell the card was fake, but the owner did not, I find that suspicious.
Your story has nothing to do with the scenario I posted.
The fact that the player got DQ'd instead of his cards being replaced by basic lands would indicate that the counterfeits were particularly obvious and his guilt unquestionable -- maybe even plain printed paper.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
So, I print up fake cards, send it to Wizards, they send me real ones?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
And this relates to playing a game how? A game needs to be fair, and a game that starts with one player having an advantage due to the size of their disposable income is explicitly not a fair game.
1: For all purposes EXCEPT jewelry, the "fake" diamonds are diamonds, full stop. The only reason they aren't considered "real" for jewelry is...
2: The diamond market is a monopoly, creating artificial scarcity and using clever marketing and leveraging the fact that they control supply, including...
3: "Blood diamonds" are diamonds, and are a thing BECAUSE the artificial scarcity created by the monopoly. They exist because the monopoly tht controls the diamond market keeps prices high on a relatively common resource they cornered the market on.
The integrity of the game? Hilarious. So integrity is related to the money you spand on it. But tactics like playing to put your opponent on tilt, mind games, and playing to win at any costs, those are perfectly fine? Integrity is how you play the game, not how much money you spend on it. Playing with counterfeits is cheating not for integrity reasons, but for financial reasons: WotC wants to keep their monopoly. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but do you consider people who enter proxy tournaments to ALL be cheating? Is there no integrity to be had in an entire room full of people in an unsanctioned tournament who are playing with unofficial cards?
You don't buy integrity. Cheating IS wrong, and knowingly going to a tournament with counterfeit cards is cheating. But the counterfeit rules aren't about integrity. They're about money, maintaining a monopoly, and WotC's bottom line.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Discussion of a DQ that has not been resolved by the Investigations Committee is a Very Bad Thing™ & is not permitted here. Focus on what was announced by WotC, not the information that might prejudice the investigation should the IC ask for statements from anyone else who was there (such as you.) Do NOT disclose nonpublic information about an unresolved DQ, here or anywhere.
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https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Even if that were valid do you think that Wizards just has to pull up a Bayou image on their computer and press 'print'?
MTG is not a fair game. When you sit down to play a game, even if both of you have spent the same on your deck, do you think that neither player starts with an advantage? Perhaps we should make a list of 5 decks that are objectively equal against each other and players can only play those, because that way no one starts with an advantage.
One player not being able to play because they can't afford it would exist even if all cards cost $.01 - I know I can't afford to fly out of state, rent a hotel, and eat out for the time it would take me to play in a GP. Should Wizards pay my way to make sure everything's equal? Or, they could have GPs in every state and make it against the rules to play in an out of state GP because it might mean someone couldn't afford to go. That sound reasonable? Wait, what about people from really big states?
Wizards is far more concerned with how reprints hurt the FLGS than it is with private collectors. Reprinting MTG until it is worthless means that many places where people love to go and play will go under. Less places to play means it's harder to start playing, which means the player base declines, which means all that money that wizards is paying to have all your Moxen printed to death so that everyone that wants one can have one will be greater than the income, and Hasbro will just stop making MTG.
All the people that put the fault on Wizards for the counterfeit problem are absurd. Then again some people think that if they want something they should be able to have it no matter what.
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"We had received a lead that a player was playing in today's event with cards in his deck that they knew were counterfeit"
Sounds like an idiot was bragging about playing with fakes and someone tattled. That's the easiest solution and the most likely, IMO.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Relative to WotC:
1) Does counterfeit cards affect their primary source of income sufficiently?
No.
2) Does counterfeit cards affect their tournaments sufficiently?
No.
3) Does counterfeit cards affect players sufficiently?
No.
4) Does counterfeit cards affect competitive players, playing in tournaments?
Yes.
Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't this group of players the lowest percentage? Why should WotC spend effort, time and resources to actively police counterfeit card sellers then?
What is the minimum effort WotC has to exert to police? Basically, during checks and tip offs.
I will not compare this incident to counterfeit currency. I compared this incident to prostitution.
If there is demand, there will be supply. If players are paying that much, its only a matter of time before alternative sources will appear.
Because if not that is the first major problem.
I agree, but on the other hand setting a method simple gives counterfeiters a specific test that they need to fool. It is not an easy solution, and even if there is an established test they are all still subjective. Any test that would work for MTG cards to relies on the tester's ability catch fakes.
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1) The guy that gets them to resell for the price of the original card, as if the counterfeit was the original card. This, to me (and I believe to everyone else as well), is despicable.
2) The guy that gets them so he can play with the cards. Now there are two subsections here:
- People that play with the cards casually, and I see no problem at all in that, casually you can use Pokemon cards as lightning bolts if you want
- People that play with the cards in tournaments, where you might receive cash prizes
For this last group, I see no problem at all, but this is my personal opinion. You didn't lose the game because the tundra from your opponent was fake, or the 4 bobs in his deck. You lost because a combination of superior luck and skill of your opponent beated you. That is it. The origin of the cards had NOTHING to do with that. Me, in particular, I like to play with original cards, and only very rarely use proxies even to just test ideas in commander decks. From a moral perspective, I wouldn't mind if tournaments allowed people to use gold-bordered cards, perfect proxies or anything similar instead of real original cards.
From a comercial perspective, I'm aware that, up until some point, this is idiotic. If I can proxy a Bob then why would I buy Modern Masters 2? Why would I try to get khans fetchlands? This is still a card game where reprints are a good part of the incentive to keep buying boxes.
Now, what is the excuse for the moxen? Or the Old Duals? Or Black Lotuses? WE ARE NEVER GETTING THESE BACK. And why does wizards never reprint wasteland or force of will? (in any relevant way other than judge promos). Why they let these cards get more expensive by the second? These cards, these cards in particular, that will never be reprinted ever, or that are virtually in a 'reserved list' of their own because they are hardly reprinted, these cards I'm morally AND commercially fine with using as proxies. And if someone would play me using them as proxies, all power to them. I really don't mind.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
This actually scares me. I have four Time Spirals from Urza's Saga and three of them are a different shade of Blue than the other one. When I received the other three, I used a magnifying glass to make sure they were real (i.e. the print quality of the text, the dots in the printing itself that is near impossible to copy, etc.). I also have 8 Force of Wills that I personally opened in Alliance packs and when you look at them all, a subset of them look different than the others. Your post basically confirms to me that what I've seen for years is legit and not counterfeit.
However, this sounds like if I used them in a tournament, an opponent could call me out for the same thing because they look different and I'll be DQ'ed or worse my cards ripped up. Even though I've verified them rather meticulously. I don't imagine the Judge will do the same thing and simply compare the colors and not realize the history as you noted.
Like I said, this scares me.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I don't think Wizards would recklessly reprint expensive cards like they did with Chronicles, that was several years ago. They have shown us that they care about players' collections and reprint cards very carefully in supplemental products (Modern Masters and Conspiracy).
The people who demand the loudest will never be happy, besides this forum is not a representational sample of the MTG community.
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1) Wizards creates a huge demand for cards by making a great game. Awesome. Everyone loves this part.
2) Wizards refuses to create the supply to meet the demand. Not awesome, but Wizards isn't required to do so. Its disappointing, but I can't complain about that.
3) Wizards creates a system that denies third parties the ability to meet the demand. This is where it is clear that the problem is created by Wizards. The combination of refusing to meet demand plus denying the ability for others to meet demand is definitively monopolistic behavior. It is clearly detrimental to the consumer.
Of course if you create this sort of market people will make counterfeits. The barrier to entry to creating is low and the scarcity of the product is not from a lack of raw materials or availability of manufacturing infrastructure. Its completely artificial. The price of Magic cards doesn't reflect any reality of the world's ability to produce paper game components.
I'm not saying the I approve of counterfeiting. I don't. The real solution would be for people to start an alternate competitive scene where non-counterfeit third party products (that fulfill the function without violating copyright) are allowed in sanctioned play. However, if such a thing were to take off it would tank demand for first party products which could cause interruptions in the development of the game which is certainly not what any of us want. Even though its "wrong", having counterfeiters help meet demand is probably "right" for the health of the game. Too many people are invested in the current model for it to change, accepting that people will illegally address the market imbalance is probably better then trying to correct that imbalance. That imbalance is what makes Magic worth so much money.
Not to derail this thread even further, but I think you seriously underestimate the impact of Vintage players, powered Cubes, and price memory.
By your logic, Mishra's Workshop and other Vintage staples should be dirt cheap because Vintage is dead, amirite?
Back on topic, has there been any official follow-up or anything on this?
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
This. And Legacy players are not going to quit for the most part. They have simply invested too much or enjoy the format. I do know a guy who quit Legacy because we just don't have the support locally (50 mi away is a bit for a high schooler). I feel badly because we did have a Sunday scene, but I couldn't always attend. Slowly, fewer people came until it was nobody.
But the number of players that stop play Legacy is far fewer than the Modern players that I see who want to start Legacy. It is really a slow build for them and often they have to go with budget decks like Oops, All Spells, but they do truly want to go into Legacy. When I go to a Legacy GPT 50 mi away, I see most of the same old guys, along with 10-15% newer guys. Sometimes I see guys who quit Magic, but it looks like they've started again with Legacy.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)If Wizards doesn't atleast put forth a good faith effort to go after counterfeit's it weakens or destroys their copyright claim which has wider implications. Thus, Wizards will say anything they need to in order to demonize fakes. Even if it doesn't directly hurt their bottom line it still has a big impact on the company.
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I seem to recall that copyright validity is not based on whether or not they address all perceived violations. That is a part of patent law, but not copyright.
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Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Looking at it more you're right, copyrights can't be lost, you can just choose to defend it or not. Trademarks on the other hand which Magic also has can be weakened or lost if you don't defend them and counterfeit cards would fall under that.