Phyrexian Obliterator seems like an awesome card on paper but is he really? Four black mana is kinda pricey in the scheme of things and that's not to mention his actual price in the real world. He's a good deterrent and looks awesome to boot, but is that all there is to him?
Would he be any good in a casual or edh deck? Is he just not worth it? Is black control (which is what he seems to point at) a thing?
Yeah, he's legit, assuming you can stomach the mana cost. Lately I've only played with him in Cube and EDH, but he was worth it in both, as some decks just REALLY struggle to interact with him. But he's also seen some sporadic Modern play.
All of that said, if real $$$ price is an issue then I definitely would not pick these up. I could definitely see him being reprinted in a supplemental product and the price tanking to a tenth of what it is now.
The real reason I'm asking is because everywhere I've looked the opinions seem so divided. Many thinks he's good as long as you use him right while others think he's just over hyped. Are the differing opinions due to what format people are looking from (Standard, Modern, EDH, etc.)?
I'm primarily an EDH player, so my knowledge (and general interest) of Modern/Standard are limited.
BTW, what would anyone say of putting this guy in W/U/B EDH deck?
Was it that bad? I mean, removal spells are a thing but Dismember can wipe the floor with anything that is toughness 5 or less. That doesn't stop people from utilizing creatures with low toughness. Was it just the timing, the format that both cards where showing up in or both? Again, my knowledge of Standard and whatnot are limited.
So he's mainly a face-wrecker? You just set him loose on the enemy once they'v exhausted themselves?
Phyrexian obliterator is one of my favorite cards of all time in concept. The ability seems completely absurd on paper, but what it really means is that nobody is going to block it unless they have to, they're never going to attack into it unless they've got lethal on the board, and they'll never target it with a burn spell.
The thing is that it's too big to hit with burn anyway, and at 5/5 he's should already be bigger than anything else. On the offensive, the ability is somewhat "win-more" (if you have a board position to attack with a 5/5 you're probably already ahead) and on the defensive for 4 mana odds are there is something better you could be playing (i.e. damnation). Add to that the obvious mana cost and deck construction restrictions that come with it, and it's hard to find a home for him. The usual argument is that at the end of the day he's just a beater/wall and it's always going to be easier to play something like tarmogoyf, tasigur, the golden fang, gurmag angler, or even tombstalker.
That said, if you're already on mono/very heavy black, he's at least worth considering. He's popular in the black devotion thread. I have a dream of using him alongside prey upon/pit fight, but those are such bad cards otherwise that it's hard to justify.
EDIT: It's interesting how much the game has changed. I remember when juzam djinn and erhnam djinn were very powerful creatures. Both are terrible compared to obliterator.
He's a 5/5 trampler for 4, which already makes him worth running in a format like modern given that you're playing a creature-based deck that can usually produce BBBB
The fact that he causes the opponent to sacrifice permanents is a good upside, but you should think of it as evasion rather than permanent destruction.
With all that in mind it's definitely good enough for modern, and if a modern mono-black devotion or mono-black midrange becomes tier 1, he'll be in it.
The card really shines if you can force a fight with it.
Dromoka's Command works fairly well with that and is flexible enough for modern to get rid of enchantment (twin) and if you can pull of the fight with the Obliterator the opponent is pretty much just dead (most the time it means dead creature from damage and 3+ permanents for the sacrifice.
Especially for the command a trick is to place the +1/+1 counter on the OPPONENTS creature to increase its damage in the fight.
The problem of this otherwise super cool interaction is that the manabase is lots of black indeed (like a mono black Abzan) and the format has a bunch of maindeck answers to this otherwise great creature (bounce and exile effects just stink, as does sacrifice from Liliana and counterspells/discard in general).
So he's mainly a face-wrecker? You just set him loose on the enemy once they'v exhausted themselves?
Phyrexian obliterator is one of my favorite cards of all time in concept. The ability seems completely absurd on paper, but what it really means is that nobody is going to block it unless they have to, they're never going to attack into it unless they've got lethal on the board, and they'll never target it with a burn spell.
The thing is that it's too big to hit with burn anyway, and at 5/5 he's should already be bigger than anything else. On the offensive, the ability is somewhat "win-more" (if you have a board position to attack with a 5/5 you're probably already ahead) and on the defensive for 4 mana odds are there is something better you could be playing (i.e. damnation). Add to that the obvious mana cost and deck construction restrictions that come with it, and it's hard to find a home for him. The usual argument is that at the end of the day he's just a beater/wall and it's always going to be easier to play something like tarmogoyf, tasigur, the golden fang, gurmag angler, or even tombstalker.
That said, if you're already on mono/very heavy black, he's at least worth considering. He's popular in the black devotion thread. I have a dream of using him alongside prey upon/pit fight, but those are such bad cards otherwise that it's hard to justify.
EDIT: It's interesting how much the game has changed. I remember when juzam djinn and erhnam djinn were very powerful creatures. Both are terrible compared to obliterator.
Well the big thing I thinking was putting him into my W/U/B artifact EDH deck. The deck is going to run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth which I would combo with Mana Web. Urborg takes care of my black mana issues on top of the check, filter and shock lands that I have. In addition I can make all my creatures indestructible. Mana for me was never going to be a problem. I do agree that there other things that could be played over Obliterator, I'm just trying to address if he is even worth considering in any real sense.
He's a 5/5 trampler for 4, which already makes him worth running in a format like modern given that you're playing a creature-based deck that can usually produce BBBB
The fact that he causes the opponent to sacrifice permanents is a good upside, but you should think of it as evasion rather than permanent destruction.
With all that in mind it's definitely good enough for modern, and if a modern mono-black devotion or mono-black midrange becomes tier 1, he'll be in it.
Basically, instead of going gaga over his power, I should look at him as an active defense/deterrent. That makes a good level of sense considering the deck I was thinking for him.
While there are answers for it, there is no guarantee your opponent(s) will have those answers in hand, especially in EDH. As many mono/heavy black decks take advantage of devotion, or at least Gray Merchant of Asphodel, the Obliterator feeds this theme well while wrecking face.
I'm only disappointed to see an Obliterator on the other side of the table.
Cheers!
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I love casting Obliterator, he is one of my all time favorite cards. I build my Bg Devotion deck in modern to find a home for him.
If you take away his restrictive casting cost and just look at him as a 4cmc 5/5 with Trample and the sac ability he is nuts. Wizards balanced him with the BBBB mana cost quite well, ensuring that not everyone can have this type of haymaker. If you feel like you can hit quadruple black often and early I would run him. His ability might as well make him un blockable in most cases, and most people aren't going to swing if your Obliterator can block.
While some are bringing up the slew of removal spells that can deal with him, they are forgeting that every creature and permanent in MTG (other than planeswalker emblems) can be removed with the right spell. Dying to removal is something all creatures do, but Obliterator is burn resistant, and hard to block or attack through.
If you can stomach the mana cost, it's awesome. BBBB is a lot, but if you're in one or two colors, it's not too much.
I say two colors because what goes well with Phyrexian Obliterator? Prey Upon goes well with Phyrexian Obliterator! You're welcome. (And of course, really, it's not that hard to find dual lands in Modern.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
While some are bringing up the slew of removal spells that can deal with him, they are forgeting that every creature and permanent in MTG (other than planeswalker emblems) can be removed with the right spell. Dying to removal is something all creatures do, but Obliterator is burn resistant, and hard to block or attack through.
You're oversimplifying things a bit. Yes, every creature dies to some removal spell, but some creatures:
* Cost less than the average removal spell that can deal with it, meaning you gain tempo from them removing your creature instead of losing tempo (Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl, Gurmag Angler)
* Have an ETB or "dies" effect, meaning even if they use a removal spell you still got some value. Note that Haste is a form of immediate value since you can attack right away (less reliable than ETB effects, but still generally good enough) (Stormbreath Dragon, Thragtusk, Siege Rhino)
* Are especially hard to kill with removal spells (Geist of Saint Traft, Pearl Lake Ancient, Aetherling)
Usually any creature that doesn't have one of these properties is what we call "dies to removal".
Phyrexian Obliterator comes close, but doesn't really hit any of these properties. It has built-in resistance to burn spells, but hard removal works just as well. 4 mana starts to get on the "more expensive" side of removal, and the fact it's 4 black doesn't help. You don't get immediate or guaranteed value unless you immediately follow up with a Prey Upon or similar, but if you are playing turn 5 two card combos, why not just play Splinter Twin?
While some are bringing up the slew of removal spells that can deal with him, they are forgeting that every creature and permanent in MTG (other than planeswalker emblems) can be removed with the right spell. Dying to removal is something all creatures do, but Obliterator is burn resistant, and hard to block or attack through.
You're oversimplifying things a bit. Yes, every creature dies to some removal spell, but some creatures:
* Cost less than the average removal spell that can deal with it, meaning you gain tempo from them removing your creature instead of losing tempo (Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl, Gurmag Angler)
* Have an ETB or "dies" effect, meaning even if they use a removal spell you still got some value. Note that Haste is a form of immediate value since you can attack right away (less reliable than ETB effects, but still generally good enough) (Stormbreath Dragon, Thragtusk, Siege Rhino)
* Are especially hard to kill with removal spells (Geist of Saint Traft, Pearl Lake Ancient, Aetherling)
Usually any creature that doesn't have one of these properties is what we call "dies to removal".
Phyrexian Obliterator comes close, but doesn't really hit any of these properties. It has built-in resistance to burn spells, but hard removal works just as well. 4 mana starts to get on the "more expensive" side of removal, and the fact it's 4 black doesn't help. You don't get immediate or guaranteed value unless you immediately follow up with a Prey Upon or similar, but if you are playing turn 5 two card combos, why not just play Splinter Twin?
I play Obliterator quite a lot, and the number of times he has simply "died to removal" is quite low. Baneslayer Angel is a much loved card, but I guess we can't use it because it doesn't do anything for us when it comes into play. Wurmcoil Engine? Kinda the same boat as Obliterator, as their are plenty of answers to remove him without issue. Both cards are concidered quite strong, and playable by most people, so why is Obliterator any different? Is it his mana cost? BG Rock played him in the Obliterator Rock decks in modern after BBE and DRS were banned, to reasonable success, and I personally still run him in my Bg Devotion deck, and have no real issue casting him on turn for and a consistent basis.
Also, I find playing cards like Prey Upon, Pit Fight or even Arena is win more, and just way to cute to actually be decent. Prey Upon is terrible alone, and is over shadowed by the other options in BG. The best way to use and abuse Obliterator is the obvious Gray Merchant of Asphodel rout, in which case you need to build around Gary and not Obliterator. This is what I've done and I've had nothing but great things to say about Obliterator.
Obliterator's a trap. He gets slotted into decks to do what his rules text makes you think he'll do. In reality, he gets played around.
A little elaboration , please? Because as I read it, if something damages him, that source's controller must a permanent for every point of damage. The only stipulation is that I could imagine is that Obliterator would have to be alive for the effect to resolves and I'm not even completely sure of that.
"If something damages him" is the key. My argument is that nothing ever does. You'll effectively get a 5/5 trampler with unblockable and protection from red, with a moat effect if he's untapped. That is indeed a lot of value for 4 mana. But, my post tried to imply that that's not why people want to like him. It's the sacrificing permanents deal that makes him notorious, and it usually doesn't happen.
"If something damages him" is the key. My argument is that nothing ever does. You'll effectively get a 5/5 trampler with unblockable and protection from red, with a moat effect if he's untapped. That is indeed a lot of value for 4 mana. But, my post tried to imply that that's not why people want to like him. It's the sacrificing permanents deal that makes him notorious, and it usually doesn't happen.
I see. You're right. I remember first finding out about this card with some friends when I first got in to MtG and I was blown away by it. After three years now of playing, building new decks and strategies, I think I can see what Obliterator truly is: he's simply a good card. Not the best, not OP and take some serious winging if you want to get rid of lots of permanents.
The effect will still take place once it has triggered, it doesn't matter if the obliterator dies before, and your opponent can't sacrifice a creature that's dying in combat, because that happens before the trigger resolves. I personally love the card, and have tried very hard to play it in a Modern deck. Blinking it to block with a Restoration Angel has been awesome, and having an Aether Vial on 4 meant that my opponent often chose not to attack for fear of him coming suddenly down. Yes, he often got removed on sight, but the rare times when it didn't and I wasn't already too far behind (dead on board, usually) it was really amazing. Against mono red it just won the game. It is a great commander card: it either eats a removal or sets up a great clock. It's less exciting in modern due to its "high" mana cost for the format, but I strongly believe one day or another someone will find a way to abuse it (maybe with Grey Merchant of Asphodel, maybe in a BG rock deck, maybe on a surprisingly good RB aggro burn list, maybe combing off, who knows). It has a very unique ability, is undercosted for its power level, powerful, and fun.
Interesting. I think your summation has clinched something for me. I REALLY like this card. You said it: it's unique, rather cost-effective if you can cast it, powerful and fun. He's versatile. Basically it has fear as no one would want to block it. So instead of permanent destruction, he's a good attacker. Even if someone wanted to block, he's got trample and is a 5/5. If your on the defensive, he's a beautiful deterrent and blocker if some actually attacks. He's also a distraction. Big enough of a threat that someone may just waste some abilities or kill spells to get rid of. And all of that for BBBB. In the deck I have for him, that's just not an issue.
As far for Obliterator not triggering the sac effect, that's part the card. Nobody is going to block Obliterator unless the absolutely have to, which enables free hits, and your not going to swing on an untapped Obliterator with something that can be blocked. This is all out of fear of the sac effect, which gives you an edge to use. He gives you a real form of board control that very few creatures can provide, and exerts a large amount of pressure. I beat a pod player with an Obliterator, forcing him to block. The block left him at 2 life, but he couldn't afford to block anymore of the damage due to the sac effect ruining his board. Obliterator puts the opponent in an awkward position in the game, which s exactly what you want to do when you are playing an attrition based strategy.
Obliterator is also unique in that he is an undercosted black creature with a powerful effect, that doesn't damage it's controller. Before Obliterator we had Phyrexian Negator. How far we have come, eh?
I love casting Obliterator, he is one of my all time favorite cards. I build my Bg Devotion deck in modern to find a home for him.
If you take away his restrictive casting cost and just look at him as a 4cmc 5/5 with Trample and the sac ability he is nuts. Wizards balanced him with the BBBB mana cost quite well, ensuring that not everyone can have this type of haymaker. If you feel like you can hit quadruple black often and early I would run him. His ability might as well make him un blockable in most cases, and most people aren't going to swing if your Obliterator can block.
While some are bringing up the slew of removal spells that can deal with him, they are forgeting that every creature and permanent in MTG (other than planeswalker emblems) can be removed with the right spell. Dying to removal is something all creatures do, but Obliterator is burn resistant, and hard to block or attack through.
If your opponent doesn't have removal than your Tarmogoyf is also GG. Tarmogyf is also much easier and cheaper to cast (and often bigger). The reason he isn't played more is that we have better creatures at 2 mana...why pay 4B for this?
As far for Obliterator not triggering the sac effect, that's part the card. Nobody is going to block Obliterator unless the absolutely have to, which enables free hits, and your not going to swing on an untapped Obliterator with something that can be blocked. This is all out of fear of the sac effect, which gives you an edge to use. He gives you a real form of board control that very few creatures can provide, and exerts a large amount of pressure. I beat a pod player with an Obliterator, forcing him to block. The block left him at 2 life, but he couldn't afford to block anymore of the damage due to the sac effect ruining his board. Obliterator puts the opponent in an awkward position in the game, which s exactly what you want to do when you are playing an attrition based strategy.
Obliterator is also unique in that he is an undercosted black creature with a powerful effect, that doesn't damage it's controller. Before Obliterator we had Phyrexian Negator. How far we have come, eh?
Gurmag Angler laughs at Obliterator pretty hard
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Would he be any good in a casual or edh deck? Is he just not worth it? Is black control (which is what he seems to point at) a thing?
All of that said, if real $$$ price is an issue then I definitely would not pick these up. I could definitely see him being reprinted in a supplemental product and the price tanking to a tenth of what it is now.
I'm primarily an EDH player, so my knowledge (and general interest) of Modern/Standard are limited.
BTW, what would anyone say of putting this guy in W/U/B EDH deck?
Phyrexian obliterator is one of my favorite cards of all time in concept. The ability seems completely absurd on paper, but what it really means is that nobody is going to block it unless they have to, they're never going to attack into it unless they've got lethal on the board, and they'll never target it with a burn spell.
The thing is that it's too big to hit with burn anyway, and at 5/5 he's should already be bigger than anything else. On the offensive, the ability is somewhat "win-more" (if you have a board position to attack with a 5/5 you're probably already ahead) and on the defensive for 4 mana odds are there is something better you could be playing (i.e. damnation). Add to that the obvious mana cost and deck construction restrictions that come with it, and it's hard to find a home for him. The usual argument is that at the end of the day he's just a beater/wall and it's always going to be easier to play something like tarmogoyf, tasigur, the golden fang, gurmag angler, or even tombstalker.
That said, if you're already on mono/very heavy black, he's at least worth considering. He's popular in the black devotion thread. I have a dream of using him alongside prey upon/pit fight, but those are such bad cards otherwise that it's hard to justify.
EDIT: It's interesting how much the game has changed. I remember when juzam djinn and erhnam djinn were very powerful creatures. Both are terrible compared to obliterator.
The fact that he causes the opponent to sacrifice permanents is a good upside, but you should think of it as evasion rather than permanent destruction.
With all that in mind it's definitely good enough for modern, and if a modern mono-black devotion or mono-black midrange becomes tier 1, he'll be in it.
Dromoka's Command works fairly well with that and is flexible enough for modern to get rid of enchantment (twin) and if you can pull of the fight with the Obliterator the opponent is pretty much just dead (most the time it means dead creature from damage and 3+ permanents for the sacrifice.
Especially for the command a trick is to place the +1/+1 counter on the OPPONENTS creature to increase its damage in the fight.
The problem of this otherwise super cool interaction is that the manabase is lots of black indeed (like a mono black Abzan) and the format has a bunch of maindeck answers to this otherwise great creature (bounce and exile effects just stink, as does sacrifice from Liliana and counterspells/discard in general).
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Well the big thing I thinking was putting him into my W/U/B artifact EDH deck. The deck is going to run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth which I would combo with Mana Web. Urborg takes care of my black mana issues on top of the check, filter and shock lands that I have. In addition I can make all my creatures indestructible. Mana for me was never going to be a problem. I do agree that there other things that could be played over Obliterator, I'm just trying to address if he is even worth considering in any real sense.
Basically, instead of going gaga over his power, I should look at him as an active defense/deterrent. That makes a good level of sense considering the deck I was thinking for him.
I'm only disappointed to see an Obliterator on the other side of the table.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
If you take away his restrictive casting cost and just look at him as a 4cmc 5/5 with Trample and the sac ability he is nuts. Wizards balanced him with the BBBB mana cost quite well, ensuring that not everyone can have this type of haymaker. If you feel like you can hit quadruple black often and early I would run him. His ability might as well make him un blockable in most cases, and most people aren't going to swing if your Obliterator can block.
While some are bringing up the slew of removal spells that can deal with him, they are forgeting that every creature and permanent in MTG (other than planeswalker emblems) can be removed with the right spell. Dying to removal is something all creatures do, but Obliterator is burn resistant, and hard to block or attack through.
Cheeri0sXWU
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I say two colors because what goes well with Phyrexian Obliterator? Prey Upon goes well with Phyrexian Obliterator! You're welcome. (And of course, really, it's not that hard to find dual lands in Modern.)
On phasing:
You're oversimplifying things a bit. Yes, every creature dies to some removal spell, but some creatures:
* Cost less than the average removal spell that can deal with it, meaning you gain tempo from them removing your creature instead of losing tempo (Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl, Gurmag Angler)
* Have an ETB or "dies" effect, meaning even if they use a removal spell you still got some value. Note that Haste is a form of immediate value since you can attack right away (less reliable than ETB effects, but still generally good enough) (Stormbreath Dragon, Thragtusk, Siege Rhino)
* Are especially hard to kill with removal spells (Geist of Saint Traft, Pearl Lake Ancient, Aetherling)
Usually any creature that doesn't have one of these properties is what we call "dies to removal".
Phyrexian Obliterator comes close, but doesn't really hit any of these properties. It has built-in resistance to burn spells, but hard removal works just as well. 4 mana starts to get on the "more expensive" side of removal, and the fact it's 4 black doesn't help. You don't get immediate or guaranteed value unless you immediately follow up with a Prey Upon or similar, but if you are playing turn 5 two card combos, why not just play Splinter Twin?
I play Obliterator quite a lot, and the number of times he has simply "died to removal" is quite low. Baneslayer Angel is a much loved card, but I guess we can't use it because it doesn't do anything for us when it comes into play. Wurmcoil Engine? Kinda the same boat as Obliterator, as their are plenty of answers to remove him without issue. Both cards are concidered quite strong, and playable by most people, so why is Obliterator any different? Is it his mana cost? BG Rock played him in the Obliterator Rock decks in modern after BBE and DRS were banned, to reasonable success, and I personally still run him in my Bg Devotion deck, and have no real issue casting him on turn for and a consistent basis.
Also, I find playing cards like Prey Upon, Pit Fight or even Arena is win more, and just way to cute to actually be decent. Prey Upon is terrible alone, and is over shadowed by the other options in BG. The best way to use and abuse Obliterator is the obvious Gray Merchant of Asphodel rout, in which case you need to build around Gary and not Obliterator. This is what I've done and I've had nothing but great things to say about Obliterator.
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A little elaboration , please? Because as I read it, if something damages him, that source's controller must a permanent for every point of damage. The only stipulation is that I could imagine is that Obliterator would have to be alive for the effect to resolves and I'm not even completely sure of that.
I see. You're right. I remember first finding out about this card with some friends when I first got in to MtG and I was blown away by it. After three years now of playing, building new decks and strategies, I think I can see what Obliterator truly is: he's simply a good card. Not the best, not OP and take some serious winging if you want to get rid of lots of permanents.
Interesting. I think your summation has clinched something for me. I REALLY like this card. You said it: it's unique, rather cost-effective if you can cast it, powerful and fun. He's versatile. Basically it has fear as no one would want to block it. So instead of permanent destruction, he's a good attacker. Even if someone wanted to block, he's got trample and is a 5/5. If your on the defensive, he's a beautiful deterrent and blocker if some actually attacks. He's also a distraction. Big enough of a threat that someone may just waste some abilities or kill spells to get rid of. And all of that for BBBB. In the deck I have for him, that's just not an issue.
Really, I'm starting to adore this card.
Obliterator is also unique in that he is an undercosted black creature with a powerful effect, that doesn't damage it's controller. Before Obliterator we had Phyrexian Negator. How far we have come, eh?
Cheeri0sXWU
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If your opponent doesn't have removal than your Tarmogoyf is also GG. Tarmogyf is also much easier and cheaper to cast (and often bigger). The reason he isn't played more is that we have better creatures at 2 mana...why pay 4B for this?
Gurmag Angler laughs at Obliterator pretty hard