One thing I absolutely love about these forums is that we tend to generally accept all people's perspectives and beliefs on the format of their choice. In the real world, however, I rarely encounter that.
I notice a lot of hate between netdecking and roguedecking. More specifically, I have encountered the following:
1. People who believe it is more fun to build a deck from scratch, but then complain when they lose to a deck that was taken from the internet.
2. People who not only complain about people who steal entire decks from the internet, but complain about people who dare use other decks for mere inspiration.
3. People who copy entire decks from the internet, then make fun of roguedeckers for having bad decks.
4. People who copy entire decks and then moan and groan when a roguedeck beats their netdeck.
and lastly, the one I find worst of all
5. People who dedicate their time to learning the ins and outs of all the cards, and believe that people who play using netdecks are scum to the community.
Is this an issue in my area specifically? You'd be surprised how often I come across it. I've personally seen someone who was poking major fun at someone because they decided they wanted to play a deck someone else made. I really don't understand where this hate comes from. If the fun of magic comes from making decks from boosters, do it. If the fun of magic comes from using other decks as inspiration, do it. If the fun of magic comes from understanding the ins and outs of legal cards, do it. If the fun of magic comes from just buying cool decks and playing against friends who do the same, do it. However, once you do that, you have no right to complain about the other people doing other things.
Feel free to share your two-cents, whether it's in agreeance or disagreeance.
i would say each LGS has a little bit amount of each profile you describe.
I just learned to live with it, fortunately i have my own play group, we like to net-deck sometimes, we like to brew our own recipes as well. if by any chance i get to play against some of those who dislike my deck, i just play my game, try to ignore their toxic comments, fill up the game report sheet, gg him/her and that's it.
Meh, I think it's mostly online, I don't think I've ever personally experienced it. To the extent that it does happen, some people just need to either feel superior to others ("I made this deck myself, you just googled!" or "look at that pile, I'm playing the most tuned list that the pros have been playing!") or explain why they lost ("He was just playing a no-skill net deck!" or "He was playing some noob rogue deck that would never win but was good against my specific deck X"). Just ignore them. People can be huge babies for no reason.
Edit - as an aside for the anti-netdeck people (which I think is the louder, if not more common, variant) - When there are people who literally spend hundreds of hours "solving" a format, why on earth would I not take what they had learned rather than believe that I could do a better job with my much more limited time. Some people are just natural brewers, and by all means, bringing sweet home brews is awesome! More people I think, and definitely me, aren't as good at brewing, so if I want to win, I'm gonna use a deck that I know is competitive.
For me, I like winning, but I like winning on my own terms and not just stealing someones blueprint. I take no pride in winning with some one elses copied netdecks and I have done it before, back in Zendikar when that Nissa Revane/Eldrazi Monument deck came out. I won the FNM with that netdeck but didn't feel good about the win so never netdecked again.
For me, the fun of magic is analyzing the meta and building a strong rogue deck that can win, and also has the advantage of no one seeing it coming and planning for it.
I understand why some people hate the creative side of the game and just want to play to win. That is fine. I just don't play that way.
Do I think people who just netdeck and can't create good decks of their own are good magic players? No. That doesn't mean I will talk trash to them. They are allowed to play the game how they want to play it.
I do find it fun though beating expensive netdecks with my rogue jank pile. That also is one of my biggest pleasures in the game.
Different people like different things. We should accomodate everyone.
Meh. I don't really take it into consideration when evaluating a player. Most people that overthink it, in my experience, are natural complainers.
I've actually been on the receiving end of saltiness in both directions on this issue. I tend to brew early in a format, but then I settle into a deck that the pros are playing. When I'm playing a pro deck, I get hate for netdecking. When I'm playing a brew, pro-deck players I beat occasionally give me the typical attitude of "way to play bad cards" or similar. I just don't let it get to me.
At the end of the day, there will be some number of people who give you grief based on what deck you're playing. You're a skill-free netdecker, a lucky noob brewer, a mindless RDW faceroller, a douchebag control powergamer, or any number of other judging titles we can think of. Ignore them.
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We have 2 official tournament formats for people who hate netdecking and want to build their own deck. They're called Draft and Sealed. Building your own deck is a skill that is heavily tested in these formats.
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Do I think people who just netdeck and can't create good decks of their own are good magic players? No.
This is hilariously broad and uninformed. Well done.
Not really. I've been playing magic for over 15 years. I have even top 8ed in a few local regionals and SCG opens, albeit many years ago when I used to take the game more seriously.. I am not an amazing player but I am decent atleast.
To me, someone who can only copy other peoples decks, blueprints and strategies and cannot come up with any new tech or ideas on their own is not a good magic player. Copying a pros deck and strategies does not mean you are good. They are only good at following instructions. To me, deck creation and analyzing and finding holes in the metagame is an equal part of the game as actually playing matches. To me, someone who only netdecks and cannot create decent decks of their own will never be considered a good magic player, because they are only playing part of the game. These are only my personal opinions. I don't talk trash at or look down on netdeckers because I know everyone plays the game for different reasons, but I don't consider them to be good magic players.
Do I think people who just netdeck and can't create good decks of their own are good magic players? No.
This is hilariously broad and uninformed. Well done.
Not really. I've been playing magic for over 15 years. I have even top 8ed in a few local regionals and SCG opens, albeit many years ago when I used to take the game more seriously.. I am not an amazing player but I am decent atleast.
To me, someone who can only copy other peoples decks, blueprints and strategies and cannot come up with any new tech or ideas on their own is not a good magic player. Copying a pros deck and strategies does not mean you are good. They are only good at following instructions. To me, deck creation and analyzing and finding holes in the metagame is an equal part of the game as actually playing matches. To me, someone who only netdecks and cannot create decent decks of their own will never be considered a good magic player, because they are only playing part of the game. These are only my personal opinions. I don't talk trash at or look down on netdeckers because I know everyone plays the game for different reasons, but I don't consider them to be good magic players.
The best magic player I personally know is a netdecker. I've never seen him attempt to brew beyond some light debating over playability of cards in new formats, but he runs any deck he gets his hand on as skillfully as any pro. He spent most of this past season running Abzan Midrange, and while that may be a netdeck, he knew the ins and outs of that deck perfectly and never gave up an ounce of value. I may literally have never seen him misplay.
Look. Pros typically make the best decks. I'm sure most competitive amateurs would prefer to win tournaments with their own creations, given a chance, but realistically, if they're going to win, it's going to be piloting a netdeck.
If we define a netdecker as somebody who literally googles the best deck in a format, buys it outright, then goes to a tournament and counts on its strength to win for them, then I'd agree, that's not a good magic player. But in order to compete, it is often required for good players to make use of the knowledge that pro players make known regarding what deck they're piloting. Not everybody is so gifted a deckbuilder as to find holes in the pros' decks and improve upon them, but that doesn't mean they aren't good at the game.
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To me, someone who can only copy other peoples decks, blueprints and strategies and cannot come up with any new tech or ideas on their own is not a good magic player. Copying a pros deck and strategies does not mean you are good. They are only good at following instructions. To me, deck creation and analyzing and finding holes in the metagame is an equal part of the game as actually playing matches. To me, someone who only netdecks and cannot create decent decks of their own will never be considered a good magic player, because they are only playing part of the game. These are only my personal opinions. I don't talk trash at or look down on netdeckers because I know everyone plays the game for different reasons, but I don't consider them to be good magic players.
"these people can't be good at magic and aren't good." "I don't talk trash" followed immediately by "I don't consider them to be good magic players"
Ok.
You can certainly be successful at magic without being a brewer. In fact, apart from tweaking decks to fit a meta you expect (which is a form of brewing), brewing is probably the least important part of magic. What's much more important is testing and picking the right deck for the meta. What's more common - a new brew wins a big tournament, or a list we've seen before either verbatim or with minor tweaks wins? It's obviously the latter. You can certainly be successful at magic even if you aren't good at creating original decks. It doesn't matter that you've been playing for 15 years, you're still wrong. Also, you're part of the problem with turning new players off to the game. You're basically saying you don't respect anyone except for rogue brewers - it doesn't matter that you claim to not treat them differently in person (which I, frankly, doubt - you sound almost exactly like the sort of person who complains about losing to "no skill net decks" when you are playing at an FNM), you are still yet another voice out there telling people that they suck if they dare take a proven list to a tournament.
I think that limited is the best magic format, and if you asked me straight up if I thought limited was harder than constructed, I would probably say yes. That being said, I don't look down on people who like constructed more - different strokes for different folks - and I would never say "you can't be good at magic if you aren't a great limited player." People are just good at different things. It's fine.
I see some hate, but mostly from casual and/or budget players. Given how neurotic some casual playgroups can be, I'm always refreshed by how normal people at stores are: why I tend to prefer playing at organized events at my LGS, despite not being a competitive player.
To me, someone who can only copy other peoples decks, blueprints and strategies and cannot come up with any new tech or ideas on their own is not a good magic player. Copying a pros deck and strategies does not mean you are good. They are only good at following instructions. To me, deck creation and analyzing and finding holes in the metagame is an equal part of the game as actually playing matches. To me, someone who only netdecks and cannot create decent decks of their own will never be considered a good magic player, because they are only playing part of the game. These are only my personal opinions. I don't talk trash at or look down on netdeckers because I know everyone plays the game for different reasons, but I don't consider them to be good magic players.
"these people can't be good at magic and aren't good." "I don't talk trash" followed immediately by "I don't consider them to be good magic players"
Ok.
You can certainly be successful at magic without being a brewer. In fact, apart from tweaking decks to fit a meta you expect (which is a form of brewing), brewing is probably the least important part of magic. What's much more important is testing and picking the right deck for the meta. What's more common - a new brew wins a big tournament, or a list we've seen before either verbatim or with minor tweaks wins? It's obviously the latter. You can certainly be successful at magic even if you aren't good at creating original decks. It doesn't matter that you've been playing for 15 years, you're still wrong. Also, you're part of the problem with turning new players off to the game. You're basically saying you don't respect anyone except for rogue brewers - it doesn't matter that you claim to not treat them differently in person (which I, frankly, doubt - you sound almost exactly like the sort of person who complains about losing to "no skill net decks" when you are playing at an FNM), you are still yet another voice out there telling people that they suck if they dare take a proven list to a tournament.
I think that limited is the best magic format, and if you asked me straight up if I thought limited was harder than constructed, I would probably say yes. That being said, I don't look down on people who like constructed more - different strokes for different folks - and I would never say "you can't be good at magic if you aren't a great limited player." People are just good at different things. It's fine.
It's just my opinions, man. No need to get defensive and take things personally when it's just one person's opinion.
I don't personally talk trash to players who netdeck or act rudely to them. Stating my opinions about netdeckers and what makes a good magic player on the internet does not=trashtalking. What is the polite inoffensive PC way you wish me to state my personal opinion on people who only netdeck and can't build their own decks in the future?
I'm not part of any problem. I don't criticize the decks people play in real life or how they play the game. I understand and completely accept that different people play the game for different reasons then I do, and I don't hold it against them. If I lose to a netdeck, I don't get butthurt and throw a tantrum, I tell the player good game with a genuine smile on my face and then begin thinking about tweaks I can make to my own deck to improve the match up. The people at my store are all cool people so why should I act like a dick to them when they beat me?
I treat every one with respect. I don't consider everyone to be a good player though. Hopefully you are able to see the difference here between considering someone to be a good player and respecting them. I don't think people "suck" if all they can do is netdeck, but I also don't consider them to be "good at magic".
I play the game to have fun. I don't act rude to kids when I lose to them. I never complain about losing either, because that's a loser attitude to have. It's just a cardgame. I understand netdecking is part of the game. If I repeatedly lose to netdecks at a tournament I don't insult the player running the netdeck, or hold it against them for running a net deck, I instead get the message that my deck isn't very good and needs to be heavily tweaked and improved, and I think about ways I can do that.
Also, there is a different between being successful and being good. Yes, people who aren't good magic players can achieve a level of success in the game by netdecking other players decks and following their blueprint. They can be successful, but if all their are capable of doing is netdecking pro lists, I don't consider them to be good magic players. Remember, this is just my personal opinion.
Not really. Most pros and HOFers are capable of building their own strong decks and tech, and most of them made it to the HOF by inventing their own meta-breaking innovative decks and tech.
Also, why are you trying to disprove my personal opinions? THEY ARE OPINIONS. They are neither right or wrong. This is the internet. Neither of us is going to convince each other of anything. I am not trying to convince everyone to follow my views. I was merely sharing my personal beliefs and opinions about people who only netdeck.
Not really. Most pros and HOFers are capable of building their own strong decks and tech, and most of them made it to the HOF by inventing their own meta-breaking innovative decks and tech.
Also, why are you trying to disprove my personal opinions? THEY ARE OPINIONS. They are neither right or wrong. This is the internet. Neither of us is going to convince each other of anything. I am not trying to convince everyone to follow my views. I was merely sharing my personal beliefs and opinions about people who only netdeck.
This idea that opinions cannot be wrong is so wrong and misused. Opinions can certainly be wrong. Let's just go to the extreme, and say my opinion is that whites are the superior race, based on genetics, and that no other race can ever be as successful. That's just, like, my opinion man! Now, would you be against someone calling out this opinion as wrong? Obviously no. Also obviously, your opinion about what makes a good magic player is nowhere near as important or as damaging as having a racist view of the world, that example only serves to show that opinions can essentially be wrong.
Now, let's move on to a magic example. Say I thought that red decks were the hardest decks to play, and any other deck was auto-pilot easy mode, and that anyone playing non-red was simply not good at magic. Again, that would be just my opinion. But it would be hilariously wrong.
"It's just my opinion!" is not a defense when you post something, on a forum specifically for discussing and debating topics about magic, that most people find inherently wrong. I can have the opinion that the earth is flat. It's wrong. You have the opinion that unless someone is a brewer, they are a bad magic player. That's also wrong. It's demonstrated by the number of times people win with established decks.
Look. Pros typically make the best decks. I'm sure most competitive amateurs would prefer to win tournaments with their own creations, given a chance, but realistically, if they're going to win, it's going to be piloting a netdeck.
As much as I think that Netdecking is useful to success, I really don't like that reasoning.
That explanation essentially comes from a place where you believe that you will never be a pro or as good as a pro.
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Generally speaking, if you actually want to be good at the game, you need to both give up your sense of uniqueness, and play a netdeck if it is truly the best deck.
You also need to understand the game well enough to deviate from the netdeck if you think you've found a better way.
It's fine to netdeck, but if your reason as to why it's the best deck is "a pro said so", then odds are you don't truly understand the deck in the first place.
I don't see too much hate from other players for netdecking except from those that are on a buget and want their drcks to win all the time. The real hate I see alot is for control players. One guy in particular that only plays agressive red decks picks a fit every time he has a control matchup because he almost always losses to control since he never boards against it. It's to the point that if you block his first assault he scoops and goes off on a rant about control being stupid and unfair.
Net deckers cause 2 really, REALLY bad problems. First, they cause the ridiculous rumor that Standard is too expensive compared to modern. That is absurd unless you follow every single meta shift and only build top tier decks and by build I mean copy them off the internet. Second, they demolish new players who tend to quit quickly because they know they don't have a chance against a proven to be superior deck, not to mention giving them the impression that that's a giant monetary barrier to owning a winning deck. That's why I always tell new people I've top 6'ed at FNM with a $20 or less deck at least 5 times so there is hope.
<The reason there is animosity against net deckers is because they legitimately are awful, ruin the game, and constantly cause problems.>
Look. Pros typically make the best decks. I'm sure most competitive amateurs would prefer to win tournaments with their own creations, given a chance, but realistically, if they're going to win, it's going to be piloting a netdeck.
As much as I think that Netdecking is useful to success, I really don't like that reasoning.
That explanation essentially comes from a place where you believe that you will never be a pro or as good as a pro.
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Generally speaking, if you actually want to be good at the game, you need to both give up your sense of uniqueness, and play a netdeck if it is truly the best deck.
You also need to understand the game well enough to deviate from the netdeck if you think you've found a better way.
It's fine to netdeck, but if your reason as to why it's the best deck is "a pro said so", then odds are you don't truly understand the deck in the first place.
Fair point. I didn't mean to imply that we can never come up with ideas as good as the pros, but I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. What I was trying to say was essentially what you said better; success at the game typically comes at the cost of uniqueness.
A given netdecker may very well be bad, but I take issue with Goblin Death DJ's assertion that netdecking is the sign of a bad player. It's one tiny facet of that player's skill, and I think it's unfair to judge someone solely by it.
It is very rare to see anyone, pro or otherwise, winning a major tournament with a deck that they themselves created. There are only a finite number of competitive archetypes within any given format.
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Not really. Most pros and HOFers are capable of building their own strong decks and tech, and most of them made it to the HOF by inventing their own meta-breaking innovative decks and tech.
Also, why are you trying to disprove my personal opinions? THEY ARE OPINIONS. They are neither right or wrong. This is the internet. Neither of us is going to convince each other of anything. I am not trying to convince everyone to follow my views. I was merely sharing my personal beliefs and opinions about people who only netdeck.
This idea that opinions cannot be wrong is so wrong and misused. Opinions can certainly be wrong. Let's just go to the extreme, and say my opinion is that whites are the superior race, based on genetics, and that no other race can ever be as successful. That's just, like, my opinion man! Now, would you be against someone calling out this opinion as wrong? Obviously no. Also obviously, your opinion about what makes a good magic player is nowhere near as important or as damaging as having a racist view of the world, that example only serves to show that opinions can essentially be wrong.
Now, let's move on to a magic example. Say I thought that red decks were the hardest decks to play, and any other deck was auto-pilot easy mode, and that anyone playing non-red was simply not good at magic. Again, that would be just my opinion. But it would be hilariously wrong.
"It's just my opinion!" is not a defense when you post something, on a forum specifically for discussing and debating topics about magic, that most people find inherently wrong. I can have the opinion that the earth is flat. It's wrong. You have the opinion that unless someone is a brewer, they are a bad magic player. That's also wrong. It's demonstrated by the number of times people win with established decks.
Someone considering someone else to be "good" at magic is entirely 100% subjective, so your given example is not really comparable. I am not trying to use science or physics or biology to justify my opinins, and I'm not claiming anything as fact.
It is clear different people value different things when it comes to calling someone a "good" magic player. To me, people incapable of building their own decks and tech, but win all the time, are not necessarily good magic players, because they are only "good" at half the game. For me to consider someone to be "good" by my own subjective judgement, they have to show themselves to be solid at all aspects of the game, and in my opinion, deck building and analyzing the meta=50% of the game. These are my opinions of what makes a "good" magic player. It is clear that your opinions on what makes a "good" magic player differs from my opinions, and that is completely fine
I just want to nitpick that I think people are confusing roguedecking with homebrewing. Roguedecking means to use a list of cards outside of an established metagame in order to go around what the players prepared for. It does not mean to build a deck from scratch with little to no outside influence. That's called a homebrew. Say for example that a Standard season is dominated by Anti-Artifact decks. Then a player comes to a Pro Tour with an All-Enchantment deck that slips right through all the artifact hate and wins the tournament. That's a roguedeck.
The difference between a roguedeck and a homebrew is on why they are being played. All roguedecks are played to catch the player base off guard. Not all homebrews are played for that reason. You will likely get various answers from different homebrewers on why they play Magic the way they do. They're on a budget, they have pet cards, they like playing with outliers, whatever it may be.
[quote from="FuriousMarsupial »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/634429-what-is-with-all-the-netdecking-vs-roguedecking?comment=9"]Look. Pros typically make the best decks. I'm sure most competitive amateurs would prefer to win tournaments with their own creations, given a chance, but realistically, if they're going to win, it's going to be piloting a netdeck.
A given netdecker may very well be bad, but I take issue with Goblin Death DJ's assertion that netdecking is the sign of a bad player.
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I never said that. Stop projecting these ideas on to me please. I never said anyone was a "bad" player. Just because I don't consider someone "good" at magic, it doesn't mean I consider them to be "bad" at magic.
[quote from="FuriousMarsupial »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/634429-what-is-with-all-the-netdecking-vs-roguedecking?comment=9"]Look. Pros typically make the best decks. I'm sure most competitive amateurs would prefer to win tournaments with their own creations, given a chance, but realistically, if they're going to win, it's going to be piloting a netdeck.
A given netdecker may very well be bad, but I take issue with Goblin Death DJ's assertion that netdecking is the sign of a bad player.
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I never said that. Stop projecting these ideas on to me please. I never said anyone was a "bad" player. Just because I don't consider someone "good" at magic, it doesn't mean I consider them to be "bad" at magic.
</blockquote>
It's not an unreasonable interpretation to equate "not good" with "bad", and ultimately it doesn't make much of a difference for the point here. What I understand you to be saying is that you silently judge anyone you play against who uses professional deck lists. It's good that you apparently don't voice your judgments to your opponents, but it still strikes me as an unfair assessment.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here. It seems to me that, if I sit across from you and whip out an Esper Dragons list (back when it was top-tier), you'll judge me for it, without knowing me.
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I notice a lot of hate between netdecking and roguedecking. More specifically, I have encountered the following:
1. People who believe it is more fun to build a deck from scratch, but then complain when they lose to a deck that was taken from the internet.
2. People who not only complain about people who steal entire decks from the internet, but complain about people who dare use other decks for mere inspiration.
3. People who copy entire decks from the internet, then make fun of roguedeckers for having bad decks.
4. People who copy entire decks and then moan and groan when a roguedeck beats their netdeck.
and lastly, the one I find worst of all
5. People who dedicate their time to learning the ins and outs of all the cards, and believe that people who play using netdecks are scum to the community.
Is this an issue in my area specifically? You'd be surprised how often I come across it. I've personally seen someone who was poking major fun at someone because they decided they wanted to play a deck someone else made. I really don't understand where this hate comes from. If the fun of magic comes from making decks from boosters, do it. If the fun of magic comes from using other decks as inspiration, do it. If the fun of magic comes from understanding the ins and outs of legal cards, do it. If the fun of magic comes from just buying cool decks and playing against friends who do the same, do it. However, once you do that, you have no right to complain about the other people doing other things.
Feel free to share your two-cents, whether it's in agreeance or disagreeance.
I just learned to live with it, fortunately i have my own play group, we like to net-deck sometimes, we like to brew our own recipes as well. if by any chance i get to play against some of those who dislike my deck, i just play my game, try to ignore their toxic comments, fill up the game report sheet, gg him/her and that's it.
Edit - as an aside for the anti-netdeck people (which I think is the louder, if not more common, variant) - When there are people who literally spend hundreds of hours "solving" a format, why on earth would I not take what they had learned rather than believe that I could do a better job with my much more limited time. Some people are just natural brewers, and by all means, bringing sweet home brews is awesome! More people I think, and definitely me, aren't as good at brewing, so if I want to win, I'm gonna use a deck that I know is competitive.
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For me, the fun of magic is analyzing the meta and building a strong rogue deck that can win, and also has the advantage of no one seeing it coming and planning for it.
I understand why some people hate the creative side of the game and just want to play to win. That is fine. I just don't play that way.
Do I think people who just netdeck and can't create good decks of their own are good magic players? No. That doesn't mean I will talk trash to them. They are allowed to play the game how they want to play it.
I do find it fun though beating expensive netdecks with my rogue jank pile. That also is one of my biggest pleasures in the game.
Different people like different things. We should accomodate everyone.
This is hilariously broad and uninformed. Well done.
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I've actually been on the receiving end of saltiness in both directions on this issue. I tend to brew early in a format, but then I settle into a deck that the pros are playing. When I'm playing a pro deck, I get hate for netdecking. When I'm playing a brew, pro-deck players I beat occasionally give me the typical attitude of "way to play bad cards" or similar. I just don't let it get to me.
At the end of the day, there will be some number of people who give you grief based on what deck you're playing. You're a skill-free netdecker, a lucky noob brewer, a mindless RDW faceroller, a douchebag control powergamer, or any number of other judging titles we can think of. Ignore them.
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Not really. I've been playing magic for over 15 years. I have even top 8ed in a few local regionals and SCG opens, albeit many years ago when I used to take the game more seriously.. I am not an amazing player but I am decent atleast.
To me, someone who can only copy other peoples decks, blueprints and strategies and cannot come up with any new tech or ideas on their own is not a good magic player. Copying a pros deck and strategies does not mean you are good. They are only good at following instructions. To me, deck creation and analyzing and finding holes in the metagame is an equal part of the game as actually playing matches. To me, someone who only netdecks and cannot create decent decks of their own will never be considered a good magic player, because they are only playing part of the game. These are only my personal opinions. I don't talk trash at or look down on netdeckers because I know everyone plays the game for different reasons, but I don't consider them to be good magic players.
The best magic player I personally know is a netdecker. I've never seen him attempt to brew beyond some light debating over playability of cards in new formats, but he runs any deck he gets his hand on as skillfully as any pro. He spent most of this past season running Abzan Midrange, and while that may be a netdeck, he knew the ins and outs of that deck perfectly and never gave up an ounce of value. I may literally have never seen him misplay.
Look. Pros typically make the best decks. I'm sure most competitive amateurs would prefer to win tournaments with their own creations, given a chance, but realistically, if they're going to win, it's going to be piloting a netdeck.
If we define a netdecker as somebody who literally googles the best deck in a format, buys it outright, then goes to a tournament and counts on its strength to win for them, then I'd agree, that's not a good magic player. But in order to compete, it is often required for good players to make use of the knowledge that pro players make known regarding what deck they're piloting. Not everybody is so gifted a deckbuilder as to find holes in the pros' decks and improve upon them, but that doesn't mean they aren't good at the game.
"these people can't be good at magic and aren't good." "I don't talk trash" followed immediately by "I don't consider them to be good magic players"
Ok.
You can certainly be successful at magic without being a brewer. In fact, apart from tweaking decks to fit a meta you expect (which is a form of brewing), brewing is probably the least important part of magic. What's much more important is testing and picking the right deck for the meta. What's more common - a new brew wins a big tournament, or a list we've seen before either verbatim or with minor tweaks wins? It's obviously the latter. You can certainly be successful at magic even if you aren't good at creating original decks. It doesn't matter that you've been playing for 15 years, you're still wrong. Also, you're part of the problem with turning new players off to the game. You're basically saying you don't respect anyone except for rogue brewers - it doesn't matter that you claim to not treat them differently in person (which I, frankly, doubt - you sound almost exactly like the sort of person who complains about losing to "no skill net decks" when you are playing at an FNM), you are still yet another voice out there telling people that they suck if they dare take a proven list to a tournament.
I think that limited is the best magic format, and if you asked me straight up if I thought limited was harder than constructed, I would probably say yes. That being said, I don't look down on people who like constructed more - different strokes for different folks - and I would never say "you can't be good at magic if you aren't a great limited player." People are just good at different things. It's fine.
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That alone should not make or break a player.(Unless of course the deck is some autopilot shenanigans, but I imagine that happens fairly rarely.)
Building a deck is only half the game, the other half is playing it making the "right" moves/choices.
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I see some hate, but mostly from casual and/or budget players. Given how neurotic some casual playgroups can be, I'm always refreshed by how normal people at stores are: why I tend to prefer playing at organized events at my LGS, despite not being a competitive player.
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It's just my opinions, man. No need to get defensive and take things personally when it's just one person's opinion.
I don't personally talk trash to players who netdeck or act rudely to them. Stating my opinions about netdeckers and what makes a good magic player on the internet does not=trashtalking. What is the polite inoffensive PC way you wish me to state my personal opinion on people who only netdeck and can't build their own decks in the future?
I'm not part of any problem. I don't criticize the decks people play in real life or how they play the game. I understand and completely accept that different people play the game for different reasons then I do, and I don't hold it against them. If I lose to a netdeck, I don't get butthurt and throw a tantrum, I tell the player good game with a genuine smile on my face and then begin thinking about tweaks I can make to my own deck to improve the match up. The people at my store are all cool people so why should I act like a dick to them when they beat me?
I treat every one with respect. I don't consider everyone to be a good player though. Hopefully you are able to see the difference here between considering someone to be a good player and respecting them. I don't think people "suck" if all they can do is netdeck, but I also don't consider them to be "good at magic".
I play the game to have fun. I don't act rude to kids when I lose to them. I never complain about losing either, because that's a loser attitude to have. It's just a cardgame. I understand netdecking is part of the game. If I repeatedly lose to netdecks at a tournament I don't insult the player running the netdeck, or hold it against them for running a net deck, I instead get the message that my deck isn't very good and needs to be heavily tweaked and improved, and I think about ways I can do that.
Also, there is a different between being successful and being good. Yes, people who aren't good magic players can achieve a level of success in the game by netdecking other players decks and following their blueprint. They can be successful, but if all their are capable of doing is netdecking pro lists, I don't consider them to be good magic players. Remember, this is just my personal opinion.
Then if you happen to have been playing longer than me, you are worst than me because I am more in tune to how things are now than you are.
I think that should cover how you guys get lucky so often against me and beat me.
Also, why are you trying to disprove my personal opinions? THEY ARE OPINIONS. They are neither right or wrong. This is the internet. Neither of us is going to convince each other of anything. I am not trying to convince everyone to follow my views. I was merely sharing my personal beliefs and opinions about people who only netdeck.
This idea that opinions cannot be wrong is so wrong and misused. Opinions can certainly be wrong. Let's just go to the extreme, and say my opinion is that whites are the superior race, based on genetics, and that no other race can ever be as successful. That's just, like, my opinion man! Now, would you be against someone calling out this opinion as wrong? Obviously no. Also obviously, your opinion about what makes a good magic player is nowhere near as important or as damaging as having a racist view of the world, that example only serves to show that opinions can essentially be wrong.
Now, let's move on to a magic example. Say I thought that red decks were the hardest decks to play, and any other deck was auto-pilot easy mode, and that anyone playing non-red was simply not good at magic. Again, that would be just my opinion. But it would be hilariously wrong.
"It's just my opinion!" is not a defense when you post something, on a forum specifically for discussing and debating topics about magic, that most people find inherently wrong. I can have the opinion that the earth is flat. It's wrong. You have the opinion that unless someone is a brewer, they are a bad magic player. That's also wrong. It's demonstrated by the number of times people win with established decks.
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As much as I think that Netdecking is useful to success, I really don't like that reasoning.
That explanation essentially comes from a place where you believe that you will never be a pro or as good as a pro.
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Generally speaking, if you actually want to be good at the game, you need to both give up your sense of uniqueness, and play a netdeck if it is truly the best deck.
You also need to understand the game well enough to deviate from the netdeck if you think you've found a better way.
It's fine to netdeck, but if your reason as to why it's the best deck is "a pro said so", then odds are you don't truly understand the deck in the first place.
<The reason there is animosity against net deckers is because they legitimately are awful, ruin the game, and constantly cause problems.>
Fair point. I didn't mean to imply that we can never come up with ideas as good as the pros, but I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. What I was trying to say was essentially what you said better; success at the game typically comes at the cost of uniqueness.
A given netdecker may very well be bad, but I take issue with Goblin Death DJ's assertion that netdecking is the sign of a bad player. It's one tiny facet of that player's skill, and I think it's unfair to judge someone solely by it.
It is very rare to see anyone, pro or otherwise, winning a major tournament with a deck that they themselves created. There are only a finite number of competitive archetypes within any given format.
Someone considering someone else to be "good" at magic is entirely 100% subjective, so your given example is not really comparable. I am not trying to use science or physics or biology to justify my opinins, and I'm not claiming anything as fact.
It is clear different people value different things when it comes to calling someone a "good" magic player. To me, people incapable of building their own decks and tech, but win all the time, are not necessarily good magic players, because they are only "good" at half the game. For me to consider someone to be "good" by my own subjective judgement, they have to show themselves to be solid at all aspects of the game, and in my opinion, deck building and analyzing the meta=50% of the game. These are my opinions of what makes a "good" magic player. It is clear that your opinions on what makes a "good" magic player differs from my opinions, and that is completely fine
The difference between a roguedeck and a homebrew is on why they are being played. All roguedecks are played to catch the player base off guard. Not all homebrews are played for that reason. You will likely get various answers from different homebrewers on why they play Magic the way they do. They're on a budget, they have pet cards, they like playing with outliers, whatever it may be.
I never said that. Stop projecting these ideas on to me please. I never said anyone was a "bad" player. Just because I don't consider someone "good" at magic, it doesn't mean I consider them to be "bad" at magic.
It's not an unreasonable interpretation to equate "not good" with "bad", and ultimately it doesn't make much of a difference for the point here. What I understand you to be saying is that you silently judge anyone you play against who uses professional deck lists. It's good that you apparently don't voice your judgments to your opponents, but it still strikes me as an unfair assessment.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here. It seems to me that, if I sit across from you and whip out an Esper Dragons list (back when it was top-tier), you'll judge me for it, without knowing me.