...It needs to be called out, otherwise it'll never get better. I will strategically and respectfully call people out on their immaturity and rudeness in their presence and while that is probably too confrontstional for most people, it is our collective responsibility as a community to hold everyone that is a part of this community to a higher standard than what frequently gets tolerated/ignored...
...it is not what one says or thinks that makes someone an ******** but rather the way one says and thinks something...
...If you don't get this, you're probably the problem and need some ethical education.
But do you package it with a holier-than-thou attitude, as per the OP's story seemed to paint?
We all reserve the right to do a lot of things when it comes to this game. Doing that which may seem harsh, or unbending, such as exerting your rights to not give a take-back, can be presented in such a way that it is educational... not off-putting. Even more so when the context was a causal game. If a player is that dedicated then he/she should be playing like-minded/skilled players as iron-sharpens-iron.
It's shameful that there is such an air of magnanimity with our community. It would not have been hard to note her level of skill and thus been able to adjust any operating "tolerances".
(Sorry, the use of the word "tolerate" got me riled up. You may not have meant to, but, in my minds ear, it sounded so incredibly arrogant.)
I wrote this on a previous thread regarding a similar issue but I need to spread some perspective.
I think there is is a question we all have to ask ourselves. How important are new players? And what rules are we willing to bend to allow this community to grow?
We are not an isolated hobby community like video games, where you can choose to not partake in the multiplayer community and still be a contributing member. Magic requires interaction constantly with individuals. This requires that if we seriously want this game to be healthy and survive as long as possible we must be aware that every time rule "lawyering" takes place and is done in a rude or disrespectful way that we are chasing away vital new members that can snowball into larger and more diverse community.
This game depends on us deciding whether misplaced elitism at a semi-casual event or a casual game is worth the loss of these new members.
Character testimony has been offered regarding the individual and I would argue that this individual is a liability to our community, not for rule "lawyering" (not a word and yes I am a lawyer), as they have every right to demand the game be played by its rules, but for deciding that this situation was worth not playing to provide his/her opponent with a fun experience during a casual game. Think if a person who has never played the game before overheard this behavior by a senior member of our community towards a new/inexperienced player, do you think they would say to themselves, "This game looks like fun, I should buy product and learn how to play so I can share my time with these wonderful members of this MTG community."
I hope that we start to realize that this situation and the hundreds of others just like it present questions that are crucial to the sustainability of this game's success. Because this is a game at its core and is meant to be enjoyed especially when it is being done in a semi-casual regardless of prizes. These pre-releases are one of the few times where both casual and competitive members congregate as a group to share our love for this game with others in our community we have not met.
I do not want to tell you how to think but please consider this reality next time you play at FNM or a Pre-release.
This is one of the reasons locating an (experienced) casual playgroup is a really great way to learn the game.
You may still find a jerk or two but at least there, you have the rest of the group actively pushing back against it and see them rolling eyes with you, instead of at you. Then, this sort of thing won't phase you at tourneys.
A group like this is more likely to be interested in social harmony every bit as much as the competitive aspect. That's a key difference imo.
I hope your friend has enough self-esteem and confidence to brush it off and not give up on an incredible game.
I don't think the type of people she encountered are somehow unique to nerds, or even gaming.
truth be told, these people exist anywhere.
we have raging people in magic, in wow and in other games.
unless a store has a casual night i dont think your friend will find what she seeks in a store.
the threatening with slow play part is problematic, prerelease is made for more casual playing.
It really doesn't matter if these people exist outside of mtg or not; they exist in this community and a community defines itself through its actions and how it regulates itself. I have seen tons of unacceptable behavior in the mtg community like this and we shouldn't put up with it. Change is hard and rare but that is no reason to just roll over and say "oh well that's just people!" Passive acceptance is what morons thrive on.
Sure, pick your battles wisely, and don't waste your time arguing with idiots. But at least call people out on their bull*****!
(And just so all the cards are on the table, I do beleive mtg has its own kinda angsty, frustrated, socially inept kinda ********-nerd, that definitly overlaps with other groups, but has many unique tendencies of aggression due to the uniqueness of mtg.)
Everywhere in the world, there are people like this. I have 3 LGS where I go to play. 1 of them is the biggest in the area, and the most competitive. The other two are much less competitive. My favourite one has no entry fee for FNM and only gives promos as prizes. It encourages kids to play, and we do not allow toxic attitudes.
I would recommend trying a different store if possible. If there is another store that has magic but doesn't run events, you can talk to them about running events that cater more for casual players and beginners.
The best advice I can give is to pick who you play with. You sit down opposite I guy playing Splinter Twin against your event deck and treats the game like a Grand Prix - pick up your cards. Not worth your time.
But do you package it with a holier-than-thou attitude, as per the OP's story seemed to paint?
We all reserve the right to do a lot of things when it comes to this game. Doing that which may seem harsh, or unbending, such as exerting your rights to not give a take-back, can be presented in such a way that it is educational... not off-putting. Even more so when the context was a causal game. If a player is that dedicated then he/she should be playing like-minded/skilled players as iron-sharpens-iron.
It's shameful that there is such an air of magnanimity with our community. It would not have been hard to note her level of skill and thus been able to adjust any operating "tolerances".
(Sorry, the use of the word "tolerate" got me riled up. You may not have meant to, but, in my minds ear, it sounded so incredibly arrogant.)
I don't change my lack of tolerance for misplays. If you misplay, too bad. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to help new players. After I have a match against an obviously new player at things such as a prerelease, I've routinely just asked to see their pool for some advice, and helped them completely reconstruct their deck for the next round. But when you sit down across the table from me, don't expect any advice until the game is over. I let people take back certain mistakes as well. But that's also a consistent rule I have that doesn't change depending on player skill.
truth be told, these people exist anywhere.
we have raging people in magic, in wow and in other games.
Any game where there is a prize worth fighting for will have this behavior, it seems. EVEN in games where it is not player v. player, but co-operative (group of player v. objectives)*, if there is a good enough prize, or even the CHANCE for one, the toxicity increases many-fold. I think we need to just be proactive about the blatantly unsportsman-like behavior in whatever ways we can (without breaking any rules ourselves, of course).
*For an example of co-op game play that has this toxicity, that isn't MTG, look at Team Fortress 2's Mann Versus Machine mode, specifically the Two Cities tour where players get a chance at Professional Killstreak Kits, and the preposterously low chance for an Austrailium weapon. The nastiness that brings out in people causes no end of hell (so far as the bickering and arguing) in the game, and in the TF2 MvM subforums, especially when you combine the toxic players, and the fact that anyone can start a votekick in game with no repercussions for abusing it.
Hi everyone. Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm on call tonight, and it looks like things will be slow from now till 6 am. Thanks for all the responses. I really appreciate you all taking the time to read and reply. I showed all of this to Beth as well.
Just to clarify .. the missing triggers all happened in casual games. Like someone mentioned, the rules lawyering can be justified. You're right in not allowing take backs in a game that is being played for prizes; so helping her out after the game would be an awesome thing to do. I always get help for drafting and deck building after every FNM. But even when the rules lawyering is totally justified, it doesn't hurt to be diplomatic about it. Also, it just makes you seem like a jerk if you do it in a casual game against a new player. If you really can't help but rules lawyer in a casual game, do your rules lawyering against someone like Ivan Floch (the only pro player I know of .. I recently watched his highlights on youtube and I absolutely love the way he plays).
I take full responsibility for bringing her along to a pre-release. The last pre release I went to – which is also the only one I've been to – was Fate Reforged. And I remember only positive experiences from that event. So I figured that Origins would be similar. Don’t get me wrong – there were plenty of friendly people, but the bad apples always seem to be remembered more vividly.
Also, to those who mentioned their bad experiences, I want to add that I have also been refused a handshake after I beat his rather expensive deck with a deck that cost much less to build. I've also had opponents refuse to say "good game" back after I would say it (this happened with losses and wins). I like the comment about how there are people who use their performance in Magic to measure the quality of their life (sorry .. just paraphrasing as best as I could without hitting the "back" button). I wish they could see that this is just a game for the majority of us – 99 % of us will not be making money playing this game.
I like the comment about how all nerdy communities have toxic people. Beth and I are both residents at the local university-affiliated hospital, so we run into our share of physicians who we would never want to care for our relatives. Beth is in Ob/Gyn, so she sees even more malignant personalities than I do. Enough of that before I get myself in trouble.
Fortunately, despite the Origins pre release experience, we didn't lose Beth. She still wants to play. She even bought a fat pack on her way home from work one night. In that fat pack, she got a Demonic Pact foil, a Nissa, and an Angel of Tithes. It's cute to hear new players say the card names without any enthusiasm because they don't know any better. Also, why do new players seem to always get the best luck from random pack openings?
Our other Magic playing co workers came up with something that Beth and I are going to try out. We would each get a certain number of boosters of Origins – likely 6 or more. Then we'd build decks from those. Then at specific intervals, we'd be allowed to buy more boosters. This sounds like fun, as we'd all be starting on the same level. Though knowing Beth's luck (Liliana at pre release, then Nissa from fat pack), she'll probably end up with a deck with 3 planeswalkers.
Our other Magic playing co workers came up with something that Beth and I are going to try out. We would each get a certain number of boosters of Origins – likely 6 or more. Then we'd build decks from those. Then at specific intervals, we'd be allowed to buy more boosters. This sounds like fun, as we'd all be starting on the same level. Though knowing Beth's luck (Liliana at pre release, then Nissa from fat pack), she'll probably end up with a deck with 3 planeswalkers.
This is a great idea! I have done magic leagues at work for a coupla years now, pretty much just like this (but also with some pack prizes) and it is a great way to keep an even playing field, learn a bunch, have a ton of fun, and still stay a bit competitive. It has easily led to some best experiences I've ever had playing mtg. Glad to hear you all are still on the mtg bus! It is such a great game!
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"Until you have lived as a statue, do not talk to me of pigeons."
—Karn, silver golem
Here's the deal, we all identify as something. You might identify as a student or occupation, parent or spouse, these are things that require some level of usefulness to be and allow people the chance to feel pride. Some people identify as magic player.
It's funny, but when you think about it, that explains a lot. Of all the things you can be i. The world, some people see themselves as a player of a game. They don't do the hobby for fun, they use the hobby to feel, capable, useful and accomplished. These are the guys that act like jerks bc they are protecting their image. You come in as a normal person just enjoying hobby and you beat the , show them up, when this is their life, it rips them apart.
I'm a geek for a few things and have met many great friends through those interests, but I really don't care to meet other geeks. The community as a whole is pretty bad. No matter if it's comics or video games or tcgs people are weird and paranoid.
I was doing something for my town, needed retro electronics for it, everyone I went to was extremely helpful lending or giving things. I went into the retro game store and asked if they ever got broken items they can't fix (building a time capsule display, don't actually have to work) guy just shakes his head no, I show him my card from the city and ask people really never bring broken things into a game store? He goes we don't buy broken so no one brings the things in. I deal with businesses all the time. Those people shouldn't be able to hold down a job, Nvm actually have a business, yet the crazy geek community supports it and keeps people like that in business.
However, Thunderbreak Regent's trigger isn't a 'may'. Technically, a judge should have been called.
This was in a casual game being played before a pre-release event.
The bottom line is that there are jerks everywhere. I think there is more rude behavior when games are being played. Sometimes the competitive environment brings out the worst in people.
That having been said, I usually see people being overly friendly to new Magic players. Maybe the OP is visiting the wrong store.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
I'm sorry this happened to you. Your best bet may be to find a better store that's more suited to your needs. I know in my area the store I go to is pretty competitive but if there is a friday night I don't feel like playing the best deck or want to draft and have a fun time and not care about winning, there's another one 30 minutes from me that is a lot more friendly for casuals.
Search the area around you, read reviews, go to the stores and ask questions, observe how people are there.
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I think a lot of this boils down to one thing: kindness. There's simply no excuse for being intrinsically unkind, especially to people who could benefit from your wisdom. It should be fundamental, but sometimes it seems incredibly rare.
I bend over backwards to be kind to new players. I offer non-condescending advice after (and sometimes during) matches. I once helped a newbie rebuild their prerelease deck after I beat them handily. After the next round, he won decisively. His opponent actually had the nerve to complain to me, saying that I shouldn't have helped him and that it'll cost him prize packs! It's as if he thought he was entitled to the win.
If we as a community want to get better, we need to actually do something. Don't let new players get treated poorly. If you see it, say something, do something! Being a bystander only helps the aggressor, and many new players will just sink in their seats during such a confrontation, wondering why they ever came in the first place.If you see yourself actually being this kind of douchebag, take a step back! Calm down, and remember that you were new once, too.
I think Bill and Ted said it best: "Be excellent to each other."
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I was doing something for my town, needed retro electronics for it, everyone I went to was extremely helpful lending or giving things. I went into the retro game store and asked if they ever got broken items they can't fix (building a time capsule display, don't actually have to work) guy just shakes his head no, I show him my card from the city and ask people really never bring broken things into a game store? He goes we don't buy broken so no one brings the things in. I deal with businesses all the time. Those people shouldn't be able to hold down a job, Nvm actually have a business, yet the crazy geek community supports it and keeps people like that in business.
I don't understand the point of this anecdote. Why shouldn't he own a store?
This is likely not a big deal, but I just wanted to vent somewhere.
Just before pre-release weekend, I managed to talk a coworkers and awesome friend – we'll call her Beth – into trying out Magic. The two of us were on our first golden weekend (2 day weekend) after having worked for 14 days straight. So having her agree to come with me to pre-release was a huge deal. She's played Warcraft III and WoW before (we were both WoW addicts at one time), so it wasn't hard to convince her to try MtG. After work on Friday, I taught her the basics, and then we got event decks to play against each other.
We go to the store early on Saturday just to play some games with our event decks. After a few games, Beth decided to play with some others in casual games just to pass the time before the pre-release started. I decided to check out the Pokemon stuff. When I came back to watch Beth playing against other people for the first time, I was utterly disgusted at what I saw.
Her opponents seemed to have nasty attitudes. When Beth missed triggers (such as the Thunderbreak Regent trigger), her opponent didn't remind her of it. When she noticed it later, her opponent said, "if you miss it, it's your problem. No one is going to help you." He also wouldn't let her take back any mistakes such as forgetting about Fanatic of Xenagos' tribute ability. Another opponent was playing good Modern decks against her Dragons of Tarkir event deck (Splinter Twin and Burn). She never won a game, and she was all smiles throughout, but she did shoot me a few "seriously?" glances a few times. It was priceless when she was trying not to show her annoyance at the opponent explaining every single guild and shard. When she asked this opponent if he had some decks that weren't as fast, the guy actually said, "if you want to be a good player, you gotta be able to play against decks like these." He later followed up with a "survival of the fittest" comment.
Pre-release was a mixed bag. Both of us played against an equal number of awesome, nice people and jerks like the aforementioned people. One of my opponents asked me at least a dozen questions about where I live and what I do for a living. One of Beth's opponents threatened her with slow play because she was taking too long to read her cards (the Liliana planeswalker), which lead to her playing a simpler card over the one she was considering (just so she could end her turn quickly). Neither of us did well, so we left before they announced the prizes.
Beth asked me if these kinds of "negative attitude-filled people" (her words) were common in Magic. I said yes (based on my experience), and I said that it was something I had to get accustomed to if I wanted to play regularly (and getting promo cards is like catching pokemon!). We have other coworkers who play, but we hardly ever have time off at the same time organize a game night. Beth said that she would be glad to join us for one of our game nights, but she was not interested in going to the store again.
So this got me thinking .. why are these "negative attitude-filled people" so common in Magic?
While I agree that snarky comments are uncalled for. It is not a good idea to let a new player take back something they forgot.
Takebacks are normal when a player does not know, or misinterpreted a rule. However, if you do not enforce rules that they do know, and rewind things whenever something is forgotten, then you are preventing them from learning and improving. The human brain, just like any animal's, is hardwired to remember bad experiences so that they can be avoided afterwards.(That's why it's easier to tell what you don't like about something than what you do). If a player forgets to pay an echo cost of an important creature, and loses because of it. They're unlikely to ever make that mistake again. If you let them take it back by trying to be nice. They will forget again later, and forget, and forget, and stumble. All of which can be avoided by taking ownership of a mistake once.
Mistakes are the most powerful learning tool in existence. Your brain has little incentive to commit an oversight to memory if there was no negative consequence to it.
Posts were too long so I didn't have time to check if someone's already said this, but:
Most (like the vast majority) of Magic players are men, and in my exoerince men are way more likely to be needlessly aggressive or nasty to people. I don't know if it's because of testosterone or what, but that's my experience.
(As an aside, almost all of my friends are female, bar one or two guys). I feel like this may be part of the problem, as lots of bragging, aggro dudes in a card shop can sort of snowball into a culture of unfriendliness, particularly to eminently-targetble 'newbies.'
This is why I generally only go to my LGS on EDH days. So everyone can chill out and just enjoy themselves.
Went to play EDH on a day with a Modern event scheduled and had some jerk commenting on our game. One of the guys I was playing with said before the game that he had some proxies in his deck and asked if this was okay with everyone. There were no objections, and even though his deck was superior we still had a decent rapport going. Then the aforementioned jerk comes along and says to the guy "I thought the point of playing EDH was to play with the cards you already own." My opponent was at a loss for words. I interjected and said "I don't think he's breaking the game with what he has," and the guy buzzed off.
I mean, I don't proxy myself, but I still wouldn't jump into someone else's game just to be a jerk about it. What value does that add? You're just making everyone feel uncomfortable for nothing.
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Posts were too long so I didn't have time to check if someone's already said this, but:
Most (like the vast majority) of Magic players are men, and in my exoerince men are way more likely to be needlessly aggressive or nasty to people. I don't know if it's because of testosterone or what, but that's my experience.
(As an aside, almost all of my friends are female, bar one or two guys). I feel like this may be part of the problem, as lots of bragging, aggro dudes in a card shop can sort of snowball into a culture of unfriendliness, particularly to eminently-targetble 'newbies.'
Men do tend to act more ape-like when a woman is around. However this isn't really a problem with men as much as it's a problem with humans in general. Since women can be really *****ty to each other as well.
Best quote I got said to me the other night (during EDH casual Thursdays) "If you target and kill Jhoira of the Ghitu on T2, I will only target you for the rest of the game" After the game, I called him out for complaining even though he won.
I feel like the hobby encourages bad attitudes. Mainly because it's competitive, and a lot of times you're competing against people that are socially awkward outside the game. This is the one thing where they can dominate other people in so they do their best to lord it over people to heal their bruised ego. I think a lot of Judges are douchebags for the same reason, it's their 15 min of fame where they get to be in charge instead of the otherway around. THat power trip.
Hi all. Thanks again to all those who took the time to read this thread. And a big thanks to those who took the time to reply.
I definitely agree that take backs should not be tolerated. But when someone is very new, you just shouldn't be a jerk about it. I would never criticize a student for not being able to think about things as quickly as I do at my work. I was a student once, so I know what it's like. But at my level, not thinking as quickly as I do now would be unacceptable.
I don't think poor sportsmanship is just a guy thing. Chicks can be jerks too. It all depends on the person. I've worked with many women whom I would not get along with outside of work. Though I have to say that I've never played against a female player who acted poorly after losing. But maybe that's because most of us aren't very good at the game. I think others have already hit this point - some people just put their egos into the game a little too much. It could be because they have invested so much into it. I've invested a lot into my career, so I would become upset if I were to make a mistake or get called out. Beth is the same in regards to her career.
Thanks for the EDH idea. I've always wanted to try it out, but I just don't know where to begin. And I've heard that a proper EDH deck should take a lot of time and money to put together. I think we'll stick to our mini league for now. Speaking of which, we decided on 12 boosters each. My deck isn't too bad; I have a white black deck with Relic Seeker, Kytheon's Irregulars, Consul's Lt, Kothophed, and Gilt-Leaf Winnower. Beth got a Kytheon -_-
I feel like the hobby encourages bad attitudes. Mainly because it's competitive, and a lot of times you're competing against people that are socially awkward outside the game. This is the one thing where they can dominate other people in so they do their best to lord it over people to heal their bruised ego. I think a lot of Judges are douchebags for the same reason, it's their 15 min of fame where they get to be in charge instead of the otherway around. THat power trip.
You really must have found the worst of magic players in the world !
In my area theres like 1 out of 100 people that is reasonable "strange" , others are more than steady persons, nothing in the slightest awkward about them.
Especially the judges are in general people that legitimatly care for the community and make the game enjoyable for anybody around, instead of abusing power just to please them.
In very big events with much more people (like a Grand Prix) , theres a more strict competitive mindset and rules are enforced quickly, so its not personal anymore and theres no educational part to it (compared to a FNM where a judge will probably "know" the people, and "know" the newbies and explain all the rulings so everyone gets it).
So in that case yes, magic can be cold and strict, if the situation or time constraints call for it.
And like allways, if theres a judge you think is on a "power trip" , you are free to go to the headjudge or the coordinator and tell them ; in general a judge should be glad to receive feedback, especially after a bigger event its fairly common to "self-reflect" and become a better judge for the future.
Hi all. Thanks again to all those who took the time to read this thread. And a big thanks to those who took the time to reply.
I definitely agree that take backs should not be tolerated. But when someone is very new, you just shouldn't be a jerk about it. I would never criticize a student for not being able to think about things as quickly as I do at my work. I was a student once, so I know what it's like. But at my level, not thinking as quickly as I do now would be unacceptable.
I don't think poor sportsmanship is just a guy thing. Chicks can be jerks too. It all depends on the person. I've worked with many women whom I would not get along with outside of work. Though I have to say that I've never played against a female player who acted poorly after losing. But maybe that's because most of us aren't very good at the game. I think others have already hit this point - some people just put their egos into the game a little too much. It could be because they have invested so much into it. I've invested a lot into my career, so I would become upset if I were to make a mistake or get called out. Beth is the same in regards to her career.
Thanks for the EDH idea. I've always wanted to try it out, but I just don't know where to begin. And I've heard that a proper EDH deck should take a lot of time and money to put together. I think we'll stick to our mini league for now. Speaking of which, we decided on 12 boosters each. My deck isn't too bad; I have a white black deck with Relic Seeker, Kytheon's Irregulars, Consul's Lt, Kothophed, and Gilt-Leaf Winnower. Beth got a Kytheon -_-
You know, if you want to try out cheap Commander, it's pretty easy. I got 9 decks and their price totals vary from $40 to $750. If you want to play EDH and do so on a budget, feel free to shoot me a line, and I'd be happy to help.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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**Golfclap** Well said. /signed
We all reserve the right to do a lot of things when it comes to this game. Doing that which may seem harsh, or unbending, such as exerting your rights to not give a take-back, can be presented in such a way that it is educational... not off-putting. Even more so when the context was a causal game. If a player is that dedicated then he/she should be playing like-minded/skilled players as iron-sharpens-iron.
It's shameful that there is such an air of magnanimity with our community. It would not have been hard to note her level of skill and thus been able to adjust any operating "tolerances".
(Sorry, the use of the word "tolerate" got me riled up. You may not have meant to, but, in my minds ear, it sounded so incredibly arrogant.)
I think there is is a question we all have to ask ourselves. How important are new players? And what rules are we willing to bend to allow this community to grow?
We are not an isolated hobby community like video games, where you can choose to not partake in the multiplayer community and still be a contributing member. Magic requires interaction constantly with individuals. This requires that if we seriously want this game to be healthy and survive as long as possible we must be aware that every time rule "lawyering" takes place and is done in a rude or disrespectful way that we are chasing away vital new members that can snowball into larger and more diverse community.
This game depends on us deciding whether misplaced elitism at a semi-casual event or a casual game is worth the loss of these new members.
Character testimony has been offered regarding the individual and I would argue that this individual is a liability to our community, not for rule "lawyering" (not a word and yes I am a lawyer), as they have every right to demand the game be played by its rules, but for deciding that this situation was worth not playing to provide his/her opponent with a fun experience during a casual game. Think if a person who has never played the game before overheard this behavior by a senior member of our community towards a new/inexperienced player, do you think they would say to themselves, "This game looks like fun, I should buy product and learn how to play so I can share my time with these wonderful members of this MTG community."
I hope that we start to realize that this situation and the hundreds of others just like it present questions that are crucial to the sustainability of this game's success. Because this is a game at its core and is meant to be enjoyed especially when it is being done in a semi-casual regardless of prizes. These pre-releases are one of the few times where both casual and competitive members congregate as a group to share our love for this game with others in our community we have not met.
I do not want to tell you how to think but please consider this reality next time you play at FNM or a Pre-release.
You may still find a jerk or two but at least there, you have the rest of the group actively pushing back against it and see them rolling eyes with you, instead of at you. Then, this sort of thing won't phase you at tourneys.
A group like this is more likely to be interested in social harmony every bit as much as the competitive aspect. That's a key difference imo.
I hope your friend has enough self-esteem and confidence to brush it off and not give up on an incredible game.
I don't think the type of people she encountered are somehow unique to nerds, or even gaming.
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EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
Whatever do you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYuF3T7s7XY
(yes I know it's stagged)
Sure, pick your battles wisely, and don't waste your time arguing with idiots. But at least call people out on their bull*****!
(And just so all the cards are on the table, I do beleive mtg has its own kinda angsty, frustrated, socially inept kinda ********-nerd, that definitly overlaps with other groups, but has many unique tendencies of aggression due to the uniqueness of mtg.)
—Karn, silver golem
I would recommend trying a different store if possible. If there is another store that has magic but doesn't run events, you can talk to them about running events that cater more for casual players and beginners.
The best advice I can give is to pick who you play with. You sit down opposite I guy playing Splinter Twin against your event deck and treats the game like a Grand Prix - pick up your cards. Not worth your time.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I don't change my lack of tolerance for misplays. If you misplay, too bad. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to help new players. After I have a match against an obviously new player at things such as a prerelease, I've routinely just asked to see their pool for some advice, and helped them completely reconstruct their deck for the next round. But when you sit down across the table from me, don't expect any advice until the game is over. I let people take back certain mistakes as well. But that's also a consistent rule I have that doesn't change depending on player skill.
Any game where there is a prize worth fighting for will have this behavior, it seems. EVEN in games where it is not player v. player, but co-operative (group of player v. objectives)*, if there is a good enough prize, or even the CHANCE for one, the toxicity increases many-fold. I think we need to just be proactive about the blatantly unsportsman-like behavior in whatever ways we can (without breaking any rules ourselves, of course).
*For an example of co-op game play that has this toxicity, that isn't MTG, look at Team Fortress 2's Mann Versus Machine mode, specifically the Two Cities tour where players get a chance at Professional Killstreak Kits, and the preposterously low chance for an Austrailium weapon. The nastiness that brings out in people causes no end of hell (so far as the bickering and arguing) in the game, and in the TF2 MvM subforums, especially when you combine the toxic players, and the fact that anyone can start a votekick in game with no repercussions for abusing it.
Just to clarify .. the missing triggers all happened in casual games. Like someone mentioned, the rules lawyering can be justified. You're right in not allowing take backs in a game that is being played for prizes; so helping her out after the game would be an awesome thing to do. I always get help for drafting and deck building after every FNM. But even when the rules lawyering is totally justified, it doesn't hurt to be diplomatic about it. Also, it just makes you seem like a jerk if you do it in a casual game against a new player. If you really can't help but rules lawyer in a casual game, do your rules lawyering against someone like Ivan Floch (the only pro player I know of .. I recently watched his highlights on youtube and I absolutely love the way he plays).
I take full responsibility for bringing her along to a pre-release. The last pre release I went to – which is also the only one I've been to – was Fate Reforged. And I remember only positive experiences from that event. So I figured that Origins would be similar. Don’t get me wrong – there were plenty of friendly people, but the bad apples always seem to be remembered more vividly.
Also, to those who mentioned their bad experiences, I want to add that I have also been refused a handshake after I beat his rather expensive deck with a deck that cost much less to build. I've also had opponents refuse to say "good game" back after I would say it (this happened with losses and wins). I like the comment about how there are people who use their performance in Magic to measure the quality of their life (sorry .. just paraphrasing as best as I could without hitting the "back" button). I wish they could see that this is just a game for the majority of us – 99 % of us will not be making money playing this game.
I like the comment about how all nerdy communities have toxic people. Beth and I are both residents at the local university-affiliated hospital, so we run into our share of physicians who we would never want to care for our relatives. Beth is in Ob/Gyn, so she sees even more malignant personalities than I do. Enough of that before I get myself in trouble.
Fortunately, despite the Origins pre release experience, we didn't lose Beth. She still wants to play. She even bought a fat pack on her way home from work one night. In that fat pack, she got a Demonic Pact foil, a Nissa, and an Angel of Tithes. It's cute to hear new players say the card names without any enthusiasm because they don't know any better. Also, why do new players seem to always get the best luck from random pack openings?
Our other Magic playing co workers came up with something that Beth and I are going to try out. We would each get a certain number of boosters of Origins – likely 6 or more. Then we'd build decks from those. Then at specific intervals, we'd be allowed to buy more boosters. This sounds like fun, as we'd all be starting on the same level. Though knowing Beth's luck (Liliana at pre release, then Nissa from fat pack), she'll probably end up with a deck with 3 planeswalkers.
This is a great idea! I have done magic leagues at work for a coupla years now, pretty much just like this (but also with some pack prizes) and it is a great way to keep an even playing field, learn a bunch, have a ton of fun, and still stay a bit competitive. It has easily led to some best experiences I've ever had playing mtg. Glad to hear you all are still on the mtg bus! It is such a great game!
—Karn, silver golem
It's funny, but when you think about it, that explains a lot. Of all the things you can be i. The world, some people see themselves as a player of a game. They don't do the hobby for fun, they use the hobby to feel, capable, useful and accomplished. These are the guys that act like jerks bc they are protecting their image. You come in as a normal person just enjoying hobby and you beat the , show them up, when this is their life, it rips them apart.
I'm a geek for a few things and have met many great friends through those interests, but I really don't care to meet other geeks. The community as a whole is pretty bad. No matter if it's comics or video games or tcgs people are weird and paranoid.
I was doing something for my town, needed retro electronics for it, everyone I went to was extremely helpful lending or giving things. I went into the retro game store and asked if they ever got broken items they can't fix (building a time capsule display, don't actually have to work) guy just shakes his head no, I show him my card from the city and ask people really never bring broken things into a game store? He goes we don't buy broken so no one brings the things in. I deal with businesses all the time. Those people shouldn't be able to hold down a job, Nvm actually have a business, yet the crazy geek community supports it and keeps people like that in business.
This was in a casual game being played before a pre-release event.
The bottom line is that there are jerks everywhere. I think there is more rude behavior when games are being played. Sometimes the competitive environment brings out the worst in people.
That having been said, I usually see people being overly friendly to new Magic players. Maybe the OP is visiting the wrong store.
Search the area around you, read reviews, go to the stores and ask questions, observe how people are there.
Podcast
I bend over backwards to be kind to new players. I offer non-condescending advice after (and sometimes during) matches. I once helped a newbie rebuild their prerelease deck after I beat them handily. After the next round, he won decisively. His opponent actually had the nerve to complain to me, saying that I shouldn't have helped him and that it'll cost him prize packs! It's as if he thought he was entitled to the win.
If we as a community want to get better, we need to actually do something. Don't let new players get treated poorly. If you see it, say something, do something! Being a bystander only helps the aggressor, and many new players will just sink in their seats during such a confrontation, wondering why they ever came in the first place.If you see yourself actually being this kind of douchebag, take a step back! Calm down, and remember that you were new once, too.
I think Bill and Ted said it best: "Be excellent to each other."
My 720 Peasant Cube
I don't understand the point of this anecdote. Why shouldn't he own a store?
While I agree that snarky comments are uncalled for. It is not a good idea to let a new player take back something they forgot.
Takebacks are normal when a player does not know, or misinterpreted a rule. However, if you do not enforce rules that they do know, and rewind things whenever something is forgotten, then you are preventing them from learning and improving. The human brain, just like any animal's, is hardwired to remember bad experiences so that they can be avoided afterwards.(That's why it's easier to tell what you don't like about something than what you do). If a player forgets to pay an echo cost of an important creature, and loses because of it. They're unlikely to ever make that mistake again. If you let them take it back by trying to be nice. They will forget again later, and forget, and forget, and stumble. All of which can be avoided by taking ownership of a mistake once.
Mistakes are the most powerful learning tool in existence. Your brain has little incentive to commit an oversight to memory if there was no negative consequence to it.
You only put your hand on the stove once.
Most (like the vast majority) of Magic players are men, and in my exoerince men are way more likely to be needlessly aggressive or nasty to people. I don't know if it's because of testosterone or what, but that's my experience.
(As an aside, almost all of my friends are female, bar one or two guys). I feel like this may be part of the problem, as lots of bragging, aggro dudes in a card shop can sort of snowball into a culture of unfriendliness, particularly to eminently-targetble 'newbies.'
Went to play EDH on a day with a Modern event scheduled and had some jerk commenting on our game. One of the guys I was playing with said before the game that he had some proxies in his deck and asked if this was okay with everyone. There were no objections, and even though his deck was superior we still had a decent rapport going. Then the aforementioned jerk comes along and says to the guy "I thought the point of playing EDH was to play with the cards you already own." My opponent was at a loss for words. I interjected and said "I don't think he's breaking the game with what he has," and the guy buzzed off.
I mean, I don't proxy myself, but I still wouldn't jump into someone else's game just to be a jerk about it. What value does that add? You're just making everyone feel uncomfortable for nothing.
Men do tend to act more ape-like when a woman is around. However this isn't really a problem with men as much as it's a problem with humans in general. Since women can be really *****ty to each other as well.
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
I definitely agree that take backs should not be tolerated. But when someone is very new, you just shouldn't be a jerk about it. I would never criticize a student for not being able to think about things as quickly as I do at my work. I was a student once, so I know what it's like. But at my level, not thinking as quickly as I do now would be unacceptable.
I don't think poor sportsmanship is just a guy thing. Chicks can be jerks too. It all depends on the person. I've worked with many women whom I would not get along with outside of work. Though I have to say that I've never played against a female player who acted poorly after losing. But maybe that's because most of us aren't very good at the game. I think others have already hit this point - some people just put their egos into the game a little too much. It could be because they have invested so much into it. I've invested a lot into my career, so I would become upset if I were to make a mistake or get called out. Beth is the same in regards to her career.
Thanks for the EDH idea. I've always wanted to try it out, but I just don't know where to begin. And I've heard that a proper EDH deck should take a lot of time and money to put together. I think we'll stick to our mini league for now. Speaking of which, we decided on 12 boosters each. My deck isn't too bad; I have a white black deck with Relic Seeker, Kytheon's Irregulars, Consul's Lt, Kothophed, and Gilt-Leaf Winnower. Beth got a Kytheon -_-
You really must have found the worst of magic players in the world !
In my area theres like 1 out of 100 people that is reasonable "strange" , others are more than steady persons, nothing in the slightest awkward about them.
Especially the judges are in general people that legitimatly care for the community and make the game enjoyable for anybody around, instead of abusing power just to please them.
In very big events with much more people (like a Grand Prix) , theres a more strict competitive mindset and rules are enforced quickly, so its not personal anymore and theres no educational part to it (compared to a FNM where a judge will probably "know" the people, and "know" the newbies and explain all the rulings so everyone gets it).
So in that case yes, magic can be cold and strict, if the situation or time constraints call for it.
And like allways, if theres a judge you think is on a "power trip" , you are free to go to the headjudge or the coordinator and tell them ; in general a judge should be glad to receive feedback, especially after a bigger event its fairly common to "self-reflect" and become a better judge for the future.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
You know, if you want to try out cheap Commander, it's pretty easy. I got 9 decks and their price totals vary from $40 to $750. If you want to play EDH and do so on a budget, feel free to shoot me a line, and I'd be happy to help.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.