Let me start this off by saying: This is the closest friend I have in MTG. We share cards, we playtest together, we text each other deck ideas and plays that we make, we even stayed in the same hotel room for a GP that we flew to, and split costs for it.
At FNM last night, after I had finished my match, I came over to watch him playing his 4-0 match against one of the other players there. When I got there, they were just finishing their game 2, the match was tied 1-1, and they were starting to sideboard. Before they did, however, my friend took his deck, started searching through it, then put his hands and deck underneath the table for a second. I saw this motion, and it immediately put up a red flag in my head, so I watched. He dropped a card from his deck between his legs, then immediately pulled everything (minus the card he dropped) back up above the table, and continued sideboarding. A few seconds later, he reached down, and tucked the card that he dropped underneath one of his legs. I couldn't see what card it was.
About a minute into the match, another spectator that was also watching the match pulled my friend's opponent (who happens to be an L1 judge) aside, and talked to him for about 30 seconds. They came back, and continued to play as normal.
I watched my friend very closely for the rest of the match, tracking the cards that he had in hand, and looking to see if he ever pulled the card up. He ended up winning the game without needing the card (the opponent had a subpar start, and my friend's deck came together nicely). After they finished, I watched as my friend "accidentally dropped" a couple cards onto his lap. I clearly saw him pull the card from underneath his leg out as he was picking up the other cards. The card was a clear card that you would want to have at some point, but not want to have in your hand for most of the game (as an example, think of Scapeshift in Modern, you don't usually want to have multiples of the namesake card in your hand, or even throughout the game, but when you want it, you REALLY want it) if that makes sense.
What should I do/have done in that situation? The obvious answer that I'm sure I will get is that I should have immediately said something, pulled the opponent away from the table, and informed him about it (because he was the only judge in the room anyway). I even foresee myself being called a "scumbag" (of the sort) for not saying something about it.
Should I try to ask my friend about it? Obviously that could put a strain on our friendship. Should I just let it go, and see if he gets caught in the future (assuming that when the spectator pulled the opponent away, he was telling him that he had seen the same thing I did)? That definitely doesn't seem like the best idea. I know that if you see someone cheat once, that means that they probably do it way more often than that, which means that my friend has probably done this before, and will do it again in the future.
Hopefully you understand my dilemma, with it being such a close friend, I obviously don't WANT to see him get banned/have his name tarnished (he's known for being a good player around our store, because he is a good player), but it's also obviously not fair to everyone else that he plays against.
What do you think I should do in this situation? I anxiously await your responses.
Maybe I'm looking at it a bit differently, as a wanna-be judge, but if I were put in such a situation, I'd try to approach him and told him that I clearly saw him cheating. I'd say that I haven't told anyone about it just yet, but if he continues cheating he'll get caught eventually. Appealing to his self-esteem (with phrases like "If you won by cheating, you lost from the beginning" or "If you're think you're good at playing, why would you cheat?") might be a way. Depending how close you are, therefore how much authority he see in you, he might actually listen to you.
Guess the best thing you can do is find the best solution yourself. I hope you'll do so, and wish you good luck.
Pull him aside and tell him that you saw it and are disappointed in him. You guys may be friends but at the least you may need to distance yourself from him in Magic because if he gets caught it could tarnish your image.
I'd say that your friend is fully aware that what he is doing is something you wouldn't approve of as he has never mentioned any hint to you that he's done this before (despite your close connection).
I'd talk to him about it by saying that you noticed him doing something while you spectated his match. If he gets defensive about it and doesn't acknowledge the wrongdoings of it, then you have to ask yourself if that's the kind of magic community you'd like to support. If your answer is "no," then you have to ask yourself another question: how do I want to move forward with my friend? You can try to work with him or move on from it. It's a very gray situation and a complex one to navigate through. It all starts, though, with you asking whether he is the type of player/person/friend that you would want to surround yourself with. If other community members catch on to his approach (which it sounds like they might be), you may get grouped in with him and your community may ostracize you as well. Do what feels right to you.
He is not known for being a good player in your store because he is a good player. He is known for being a good player at your store because he has generated that illusion. Cheaters are not good players.
I mean, people have flaws, maybe he is a good -person-, but he is by definition not a good player. If you don't abide by the rules, you are not a player at all.
Tell the judges and let them look out for it, at the same time, tell your friend to cut the ***** right out. He's meant to be playing a game, which means he plays by the rule. Ultimately there's nothing more pathetic than a cheater.
I would probably do this. I would mention it to the judges and tell them to keep it anonymous. You are definitely right about this - if you associate with cheaters, then you will be assumed to be one yourself. I know for certain that I am watching anyone who is associated with all of the players that have been caught cheating before and I assume that they cheat themselves, which in my mind, I know is not true. Still, I will assume that they do.
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One of my friends is a freaking notorious cheater, and I make it a point to tell everyone about it. In the forums, in real life, in tournaments, anyone who asks, anyone who doesn't ask. I tell his opponents straight up while they're shuffling/in the middle of the game.
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Agree with everyone so far. Let the store judge know about it, but ask to keep it anonymous. Then, at your first chance, tell you friend you saw what he was pulling, and that you saw how he cheated and that you can't let him keep doing it. Let him know if you see him do it again that you will tell a judge. If word gets out that he cheated and he confronts you tell him if you saw if then other people probably did to. If none of this stops him, call him out the second you see him do it during a match.
If your friendship can't weather that storm then it wasn't a strong one to begin with. Good luck with the whole issue.
I would start by approaching him personally. I know a lot of people will disagree with that, but my friendship comes before my responsibility as a player. I would let him know in private that I definitely saw him cheat, and let him know my stance on the issue. I would say that cheating is detrimental to the community, and also removes the legitimacy of anything you accomplish. Also, the game of Magic is not worth sacrificing your integrity for, even if it is for money. Money comes and money goes, but who you are can live beyond your life span. I would tell him all these things, and hopefully, if he is a good person and not too far down the rabbit hole of cheating, he can come back and be an honest player. I would be sure to warn him that, although I am his friend, if he continues to cheat that I will not allow stand by silently. That gives him fair warning in the future of what I will do and why I am doing it. If he continues to cheat even after that, it will be his choice to put strain on the relationship and not mine.
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If he's really your friend, then he's not worth losing over this. So I wouldn't humiliate him over the matter. Tell him to his face what you saw and how you feel about it. Tell him you'll report him to the judges if you see him cheating again.
One of my friends is a freaking notorious cheater, and I make it a point to tell everyone about it. In the forums, in real life, in tournaments, anyone who asks, anyone who doesn't ask. I tell his opponents straight up while they're shuffling/in the middle of the game.
This. I've seen this kind of thing play out a lot, and generally treating cheaters gently isn't going to get good results. They'll deny and even get aggressive about it. If you are quiet and subtle about it, if you don't tell others, all you will achieve if getting him to be more careful about cheating...when you are around.
Confront him firmly about it, no BS, no "well I think I saw...". Tell him what you think of it and that he should stop...and tell him that you have told the judge at your store so that they can keep an eye on him too. And if you see that in a match again friggin say something. YOU are letting him cheat somebody when you don't. This is a community, and we have to work to keep it a strong one.
I would never bother approaching him personally. There is literally zero chance that this accomplished anything positive. I mean literally. In a million times, he will not stop cheating here, or even slow down, once.
I would just anonymously report him to the person(s) that judge these events.
Honestly, behavior like this is becoming so common in Magic that WOTC should probably consider forcing people to pile shuffle their opponents decks(also counting the cards) in Competitive level REL.
I would never bother approaching him personally. There is literally zero chance that this accomplished anything positive. I mean literally. In a million times, he will not stop cheating here, or even slow down, once.
Yup. If it was an accidental kind of cheat, like a player not understanding that mana-weaving is cheating, it would be a different story. But a blatantly intentional cheat like this...you aren't going to change anything (unless we are talking about a kid here, in which case maybe you can make a difference if you are a role model).
I'm going to agree with the tell a judge crowd. Let them know in advance that you have spotted some very suspicious and certainly looked like cheating behavior. Explain what you saw and what they should keep an eye out for. Let the judges do their job and keep an eye on the person, if they catch them doing something wrong, then they will handle it appropriately. You can confront your friend, but the likely result is the end of that friendship, especially if he were to get caught at a tournament, or notices that judges are keeping a much closer eye on him (which would automatically link to you as being the one that tipped them off). If he is a friend you would hate to lose over a situation like that, then just tell the judge anonymously and let your friend learn from their mistakes.
Now in hindsight, what you should have done is simply pointed out to him when you noted it at the time, that he missed a card when he "Accidently" dropped those cards and then proceeded to hide the one. You could have accomplished stopping him from cheating and at the same time would simply be viewed as helping out your friend who accidently missed a card when they were picking the others up.
I would privately mention it to the judge/the normal judge for that store, and also tell my friend that I saw him and will not protect him. Beyond that if he cheats and gets caught, well, it's time to lay in that bed he made.
I would never bother approaching him personally. There is literally zero chance that this accomplished anything positive. I mean literally. In a million times, he will not stop cheating here, or even slow down, once.
I would just anonymously report him to the person(s) that judge these events.
Honestly, behavior like this is becoming so common in Magic that WOTC should probably consider forcing people to pile shuffle their opponents decks(also counting the cards) in Competitive level REL.
Agreed, I can't see you approaching him about it resolving in any positive situation. Report what you saw the the judge, tell him how conflicted you were because he is your friend and apologize for not having done so sooner.
Best of luck, this is a crappy situation to have to be in.
Just remember if you see a cheat and don't say anything, you're cheating too. This isn't a "maybe he cheated, maybe he didn't" scenario, the guy was trying one of the oldest cheats in the books.
Jeff had it right. The best way would have been to say to your friend, "Looks like you dropped a card there" when he attempted to hide a card in his lap. Or better yet, as he's pile shuffling, say over his shoulder, "I counted 59 cards, not 60 cards. What's up with that?"
Also in my experience, cheats at Magic are some of the scummiest people around in their non-Magic lives too.
It's sadly unsurprising to see most people going for the "go behind his back and anonymously tell a judge" advice. Ie, the "be a massive *****" solution. I get that MtG nerds tend to be some of the most nervously non-confrontational people on the planet, but wow.
Tell your friend you saw him cheating. Tell him that next time you see him doing it, you'll inform a judge immediately. And tell him to stop being a dick. If he gets aggressive with you, he's an ass and you can stop being his friend. Then feel free to tell a judge anyway. If he was making a stupid decision or taking the game too seriously, maybe he'll take on board what you say. Again, tell him next time he does it you'll call a judge. Immediately snitching on him to a judge behind his back (and not even having the ******* balls to do it with your name attached) is pathetic.
Sure, if you feel so strongly about it that you don't want to "just give him a warning" then go straight to the judge before talking to him. That's fair enough - he cheated, he can't complain if he gets caught. But don't be a ***** and send an anonymous message. If you feel strongly enough to go to a judge then go to a damn judge and tell him.
For clarity in my post when I said anonymously I was referring to telling the judge to keep your name out of it in case the potential cheater in question inquires about who told on them, and secondly, simply talking with the judge in such a way that wouldn't reveal that you were the one that told the judge to keep an eye out on the potential cheater. I could see how my post could be misinterpreted though. Beyond this clarification, the post itself I made stands as to my suggestion.
I would talk to him, privately, and let him know that you saw what he did. Let him know you don't agree with this kind of behavior and if he doesn't stop you are going to have to reconsider working with him in magic in the future. Hopefully, if he values your friendship he will stop.
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I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a second here. Did he really cheat? He presented a 60 card legal deck to his opponent. He had a legal 15 card sideboard, except he likes to keep one of the cards under his ass. He did not touch the card he hid away. Of course I'm not denying this is shady and the only reason for such behaviour would be the intention to cheat, BUT he did not cheat during that game.
What should you do? You're been given some advice here already, and you've probably got your own ideas too. Think good about the consequences of whatever action you deem necessary. Will it affect your friendship? Will it damage his reputation? Will he get banned from the store?
There's a good chance you're not the only one that saw it.
The penalty is disqualification but local game store owners can issue a ban if they want.
Sometimes we have a lapse in judgement and we make friends with people who aren't in line with our own beliefs. There is no shame in doing this. I'd say it's only a matter of time before this friendship ends. It's nice to feel accepted especially when others have been less welcoming to your presence, my only advice is to keep playing and trying to make new friends. You might find somebody you click better with.
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At FNM last night, after I had finished my match, I came over to watch him playing his 4-0 match against one of the other players there. When I got there, they were just finishing their game 2, the match was tied 1-1, and they were starting to sideboard. Before they did, however, my friend took his deck, started searching through it, then put his hands and deck underneath the table for a second. I saw this motion, and it immediately put up a red flag in my head, so I watched. He dropped a card from his deck between his legs, then immediately pulled everything (minus the card he dropped) back up above the table, and continued sideboarding. A few seconds later, he reached down, and tucked the card that he dropped underneath one of his legs. I couldn't see what card it was.
About a minute into the match, another spectator that was also watching the match pulled my friend's opponent (who happens to be an L1 judge) aside, and talked to him for about 30 seconds. They came back, and continued to play as normal.
I watched my friend very closely for the rest of the match, tracking the cards that he had in hand, and looking to see if he ever pulled the card up. He ended up winning the game without needing the card (the opponent had a subpar start, and my friend's deck came together nicely). After they finished, I watched as my friend "accidentally dropped" a couple cards onto his lap. I clearly saw him pull the card from underneath his leg out as he was picking up the other cards. The card was a clear card that you would want to have at some point, but not want to have in your hand for most of the game (as an example, think of Scapeshift in Modern, you don't usually want to have multiples of the namesake card in your hand, or even throughout the game, but when you want it, you REALLY want it) if that makes sense.
What should I do/have done in that situation? The obvious answer that I'm sure I will get is that I should have immediately said something, pulled the opponent away from the table, and informed him about it (because he was the only judge in the room anyway). I even foresee myself being called a "scumbag" (of the sort) for not saying something about it.
Should I try to ask my friend about it? Obviously that could put a strain on our friendship. Should I just let it go, and see if he gets caught in the future (assuming that when the spectator pulled the opponent away, he was telling him that he had seen the same thing I did)? That definitely doesn't seem like the best idea. I know that if you see someone cheat once, that means that they probably do it way more often than that, which means that my friend has probably done this before, and will do it again in the future.
Hopefully you understand my dilemma, with it being such a close friend, I obviously don't WANT to see him get banned/have his name tarnished (he's known for being a good player around our store, because he is a good player), but it's also obviously not fair to everyone else that he plays against.
What do you think I should do in this situation? I anxiously await your responses.
Maybe I'm looking at it a bit differently, as a wanna-be judge, but if I were put in such a situation, I'd try to approach him and told him that I clearly saw him cheating. I'd say that I haven't told anyone about it just yet, but if he continues cheating he'll get caught eventually. Appealing to his self-esteem (with phrases like "If you won by cheating, you lost from the beginning" or "If you're think you're good at playing, why would you cheat?") might be a way. Depending how close you are, therefore how much authority he see in you, he might actually listen to you.
Guess the best thing you can do is find the best solution yourself. I hope you'll do so, and wish you good luck.
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I'd talk to him about it by saying that you noticed him doing something while you spectated his match. If he gets defensive about it and doesn't acknowledge the wrongdoings of it, then you have to ask yourself if that's the kind of magic community you'd like to support. If your answer is "no," then you have to ask yourself another question: how do I want to move forward with my friend? You can try to work with him or move on from it. It's a very gray situation and a complex one to navigate through. It all starts, though, with you asking whether he is the type of player/person/friend that you would want to surround yourself with. If other community members catch on to his approach (which it sounds like they might be), you may get grouped in with him and your community may ostracize you as well. Do what feels right to you.
I mean, people have flaws, maybe he is a good -person-, but he is by definition not a good player. If you don't abide by the rules, you are not a player at all.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)One of my friends is a freaking notorious cheater, and I make it a point to tell everyone about it. In the forums, in real life, in tournaments, anyone who asks, anyone who doesn't ask. I tell his opponents straight up while they're shuffling/in the middle of the game.
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If your friendship can't weather that storm then it wasn't a strong one to begin with. Good luck with the whole issue.
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This. I've seen this kind of thing play out a lot, and generally treating cheaters gently isn't going to get good results. They'll deny and even get aggressive about it. If you are quiet and subtle about it, if you don't tell others, all you will achieve if getting him to be more careful about cheating...when you are around.
Confront him firmly about it, no BS, no "well I think I saw...". Tell him what you think of it and that he should stop...and tell him that you have told the judge at your store so that they can keep an eye on him too. And if you see that in a match again friggin say something. YOU are letting him cheat somebody when you don't. This is a community, and we have to work to keep it a strong one.
I would just anonymously report him to the person(s) that judge these events.
Honestly, behavior like this is becoming so common in Magic that WOTC should probably consider forcing people to pile shuffle their opponents decks(also counting the cards) in Competitive level REL.
Yup. If it was an accidental kind of cheat, like a player not understanding that mana-weaving is cheating, it would be a different story. But a blatantly intentional cheat like this...you aren't going to change anything (unless we are talking about a kid here, in which case maybe you can make a difference if you are a role model).
Now in hindsight, what you should have done is simply pointed out to him when you noted it at the time, that he missed a card when he "Accidently" dropped those cards and then proceeded to hide the one. You could have accomplished stopping him from cheating and at the same time would simply be viewed as helping out your friend who accidently missed a card when they were picking the others up.
Just something to keep in mind :).
Agreed, I can't see you approaching him about it resolving in any positive situation. Report what you saw the the judge, tell him how conflicted you were because he is your friend and apologize for not having done so sooner.
Best of luck, this is a crappy situation to have to be in.
Jeff had it right. The best way would have been to say to your friend, "Looks like you dropped a card there" when he attempted to hide a card in his lap. Or better yet, as he's pile shuffling, say over his shoulder, "I counted 59 cards, not 60 cards. What's up with that?"
Also in my experience, cheats at Magic are some of the scummiest people around in their non-Magic lives too.
If it ruined the friendship, then it wasn't a healthy friendship to begin with.
Think back. Has your friend ever dropped his cards at an important time during your matches?
For clarity in my post when I said anonymously I was referring to telling the judge to keep your name out of it in case the potential cheater in question inquires about who told on them, and secondly, simply talking with the judge in such a way that wouldn't reveal that you were the one that told the judge to keep an eye out on the potential cheater. I could see how my post could be misinterpreted though. Beyond this clarification, the post itself I made stands as to my suggestion.
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What should you do? You're been given some advice here already, and you've probably got your own ideas too. Think good about the consequences of whatever action you deem necessary. Will it affect your friendship? Will it damage his reputation? Will he get banned from the store?
The penalty is disqualification but local game store owners can issue a ban if they want.
Sometimes we have a lapse in judgement and we make friends with people who aren't in line with our own beliefs. There is no shame in doing this. I'd say it's only a matter of time before this friendship ends. It's nice to feel accepted especially when others have been less welcoming to your presence, my only advice is to keep playing and trying to make new friends. You might find somebody you click better with.