If you follow r/magictcg I'm sure you've seen the post about Zach Jesse being banned.
About a month ago a pro MTG player outed him for a crime Zach Jesse committed years ago and has since done his time and has had his civil rights restored as well.
What do you think about this? Should he have been banned from sanctioned play for a crime he has since paid his time for? Is this the right decision? Is this just another example of the ever growing outrage culture and be overly sensitive about everything?
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If Wizards logic was to ban him to make players feel safe at sanctioned events because of his criminal past. Why not ban Patrick Chapin as well? He is a convicted felon.
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He's done his jailtime, he has (I presume) a clean slate since 2004, and they're banning him now? See, I can agree with the ban if they do so while the sentence is being passed out. Not 10 years after. This sets a bad precedent and frankly it feels disgusting.
Don't get me wrong, what he's done is wrong, absolutely, but he's paid the price, he served his time. When you're released you should have a semi-clean slate, and only when repeat offense happens should this past become a real issue again. This is bollocks, really.
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Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
He's done his jailtime, he has (I presume) a clean slate since 2004, and they're banning him now? See, I can agree with the ban if they do so while the sentence is being passed out. Not 10 years after. This sets a bad precedent and frankly it feels disgusting.
Don't get me wrong, what he's done is wrong, absolutely, but he's paid the price, he served his time. When you're released you should have a semi-clean slate, and only when repeat offense happens should this past become a real issue again. This is bollocks, really.
The clean slate only (rightfully) applies to legal and government matters. Private businesses can do whatever they want. Zach Jesse isn't entitled to play Magic: The Gathering. Perhaps he shouldn't have <overly graphic content removed> if he wanted to play trading card games that children and women also compete in. I have zero sympathy for him and I'm shocked that the majority of the community is arguing in favor of his privilege to play MTG.
Maybe Wizards/Hasbro has a good justification for this. In which case they really *bleeping* need to share it. Because right now it just makes them look really bad and unjust.
He's done his jailtime, he has (I presume) a clean slate since 2004, and they're banning him now? See, I can agree with the ban if they do so while the sentence is being passed out. Not 10 years after. This sets a bad precedent and frankly it feels disgusting.
Don't get me wrong, what he's done is wrong, absolutely, but he's paid the price, he served his time. When you're released you should have a semi-clean slate, and only when repeat offense happens should this past become a real issue again. This is bollocks, really.
The clean slate only (rightfully) applies to legal and government matters. Private businesses can do whatever they want. Zach Jesse isn't entitled to play Magic: The Gathering. Perhaps he shouldn't have <overly graphic content removed> if he wanted to play trading card games that children and women also compete in. I have zero sympathy for him and I'm shocked that the majority of the community is arguing in favor of his privilege to play MTG.
Speaking as someone with a friend who was raped multiple times when she was 14... get off your high horse.
He served his time in prison. If you are going to keep punishing criminals after they have served their sentence, then make execution mandatory for any and all offenses. That's the purpose of prison, and he served his time.
It happened a decade ago. To ban him now is utterly crap.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
What he did was very bad and he didn't get enough consequences for his actions. This is all I can say about that without knowing more.
The decision to ban him for this now is just wrong. I understand that they are a business and could possibly lose "business," but this has nothing to do with the right to enter a Magic the Gathering tournament. If he has served his time according to the local police station, then there is nothing else to really say other than to check on how it has affected his and her families. That doesn't have anything to do with Magic and is probably none of our business.
Also I think it is better to leave Chapin's name out of this. It doesn't have anything to do with him and if someone has something against him, they can just do his own separate thread.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
He's done his jailtime, he has (I presume) a clean slate since 2004, and they're banning him now? See, I can agree with the ban if they do so while the sentence is being passed out. Not 10 years after. This sets a bad precedent and frankly it feels disgusting.
Don't get me wrong, what he's done is wrong, absolutely, but he's paid the price, he served his time. When you're released you should have a semi-clean slate, and only when repeat offense happens should this past become a real issue again. This is bollocks, really.
The clean slate only (rightfully) applies to legal and government matters. Private businesses can do whatever they want. Zach Jesse isn't entitled to play Magic: The Gathering. Perhaps he shouldn't have <overly graphic content removed> if he wanted to play trading card games that children and women also compete in. I have zero sympathy for him and I'm shocked that the majority of the community is arguing in favor of his privilege to play MTG.
Speaking as someone with a friend who was raped multiple times when she was 14... get off your high horse.
He served his time in prison. If you are going to keep punishing criminals after they have served their sentence, then make execution mandatory for any and all offenses. That's the purpose of prison, and he served his time.
It happened a decade ago. To ban him now is utterly crap.
But you weren't raped. So get off your high horse and stop speaking for someone who was raped. Denying someone a privilege to play a collectible trading card game doesn't equate to execution for all offenses. Please stop digging yourself into a hole.
Maybe Wizards/Hasbro has a good justification for this. In which case they really *bleeping* need to share it. Because right now it just makes them look really bad and unjust.
"Please explicitly state why you don't want a rapist to potentially play against rape survivors."
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He's done his jailtime, he has (I presume) a clean slate since 2004, and they're banning him now? See, I can agree with the ban if they do so while the sentence is being passed out. Not 10 years after. This sets a bad precedent and frankly it feels disgusting.
Don't get me wrong, what he's done is wrong, absolutely, but he's paid the price, he served his time. When you're released you should have a semi-clean slate, and only when repeat offense happens should this past become a real issue again. This is bollocks, really.
The clean slate only (rightfully) applies to legal and government matters. Private businesses can do whatever they want. Zach Jesse isn't entitled to play Magic: The Gathering. Perhaps he shouldn't have anally and vaginally raped a woman if he wanted to play trading card games that children and women also compete in. I have zero sympathy for him and I'm shocked that the majority of the community is arguing in favor of his privilege to play MTG.
People do stuff, people get punished. Both people ended up fine, and are probably leading happy, healthy lives. Chances are everyone has done something terrible in the past, he just got caught and it happened to be illegal. He served his time.
Things to remember -
1. One offense
2. Years of staying clean
3. Served jail time
4. As much as you may think it may just be a cover up, that reddit post seemed pretty sincere.
5. He is a human too, no matter what he has done in the past.
It sucks that someone was driven away from this great hobby because he made a mistake as a nineteen-year-old that he has paid his dues for. This is nothing but a PR move, despite what Wizards says. If they were really didn't think people who committed crimes in the past should be allowed to play on MTGO or at tournaments, they would do background checks on every player. We had the SCG article about women in Magic pulled, and now we have this. It sucks that the Twitter/Social Justice mob has so much power over the community.
Unfortunately, this is just the idea of retributive justice at work. It's the idea that the primary goal should be to punish offenders, not rehabilitate them. So even after they serve their time, society will continue to punish them, to ostracize them, to make them suffer for life. It's why recidivism rates are so unbelievably high, frankly. Someone offends, gets out, then finds themself discriminated against in employment, housing, etc (though in this case it seems he's avoided that much, at least, but he's one of the lucky ones), and even ostracized from their hobbies. Then we all act like it's their fault when they get pushed so hard into a corner that the only thing they can do is lash out.
As I said above, Zach Jesse was one of the lucky ones. He pieced together a solid life and was overall on the best of behaviour, and now he's being punished... why, exactly? Because of some notion that "once a criminal, always a criminal"? There are a lot of things I've been disappointed with Wizards about before, but this is one of the most absolutely indefensibly stupid, thoughtless, and short-sighted things I've seen from them. Whoever made this decision needs to get a clue, because they don't even have the beginnings of one.
People do stuff, people get punished. Both people ended up fine, and are probably leading happy, healthy lives. Chances are everyone has done something terrible in the past, he just got caught and it happened to be illegal. He served his time.
Things to remember -
1. One offense
2. Years of staying clean
3. Served jail time
4. As much as you may think it may just be a cover up, that reddit post seemed pretty sincere.
5. He is a human too, no matter what he has done in the past.
People do stuff, but most of us don't rape people.
I stopped reading at "Both people ended up fine".
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I think that Wizards is trying to send a message, "convicted criminals cannot play Sanctioned Magic."
But in reality, all they're doing is telling people, "if you continue to play in obscurity, it's okay, but top 8 a Grand Prix, and you WILL be banned." The way that they're doing this right now shows no empathy towards victims of crime.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
He's done his jailtime, he has (I presume) a clean slate since 2004, and they're banning him now? See, I can agree with the ban if they do so while the sentence is being passed out. Not 10 years after. This sets a bad precedent and frankly it feels disgusting.
Don't get me wrong, what he's done is wrong, absolutely, but he's paid the price, he served his time. When you're released you should have a semi-clean slate, and only when repeat offense happens should this past become a real issue again. This is bollocks, really.
The clean slate only (rightfully) applies to legal and government matters. Private businesses can do whatever they want. Zach Jesse isn't entitled to play Magic: The Gathering. Perhaps he shouldn't have anally and vaginally raped a woman if he wanted to play trading card games that children and women also compete in. I have zero sympathy for him and I'm shocked that the majority of the community is arguing in favor of his privilege to play MTG.
Speaking as someone with a friend who was raped multiple times when she was 14... get off your high horse.
He served his time in prison. If you are going to keep punishing criminals after they have served their sentence, then make execution mandatory for any and all offenses. That's the purpose of prison, and he served his time.
It happened a decade ago. To ban him now is utterly crap.
But you weren't raped. So get off your high horse and stop speaking for someone who was raped. Denying someone a privilege to play a collectible trading card game doesn't equate to execution for all offenses. Please stop digging yourself into a hole.
Nice job dancing around my point.
He served his time. What else would he have to do? If you are going to punish someone until the end of time WHY LET THEM OUT OF JAIL IN THE FIRST PLACE?
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
The easiest way out for WOTC is to state that that they are consistently doing this for people who have these offenses...
They dug themselves into a hole either way, but I'm guessing that the above is the path of least resistance.. I could very well be wrong though.
"WOTC unbans convicted rapist over community backlash"
I mean, that's what I keep hearing anyway.
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MTGO only (unless I qualify for something, rightttt). I stopped playing over-the-board years ago.
Playing Type II only:
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[quote from="Teysa_Karlov »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615694-zach-jesse-banned-until-2049?comment=11"][quote from="Shofixi »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615694-zach-jesse-banned-until-2049?comment=9"][quote from="stu55 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615694-zach-jesse-banned-until-2049?comment=7"]100% believe this is a Hasbro decision and not a WoTC decision. It still feels 100% bad and probably sets a really bad precedent.
Nice job dancing around my point.
He served his time. What else would he have to do? If you are going to punish someone until the end of time WHY LET THEM OUT OF JAIL IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Not being able to play Magic is hardly a punishment for raping a woman. Get over it.
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MTGO only (unless I qualify for something, rightttt). I stopped playing over-the-board years ago.
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
It sucks that someone was driven away from this great hobby because he made a mistake as a nineteen-year-old that he has paid his dues for. This is nothing but a PR move, despite what Wizards says. If they were really didn't think people who committed crimes in the past should be allowed to play on MTGO or at tournaments, they would do background checks on every player. We had the SCG article about women in Magic pulled, and now we have this. It sucks that the Twitter/Social Justice mob has so much power over the community.
Don't start with the "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR" bullcrap. One idiot got pissed that Jesse made Top 8 and posted his criminal record. Wizards made a stupid decision. That's it. No one is calling for boycotts, so drop the "SJW" boogeyman for a second. We have enough sections of the internet burned to the ground with that crap.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
What he did was very bad and he didn't get enough consequences for his actions. This is all I can say about that without knowing more.
The decision to ban him for this now is just wrong. I understand that they are a business and could possibly lose "business," but this has nothing to do with the right to enter a Magic the Gathering tournament. If he has served his time according to the local police station, then there is nothing else to really say other than to check on how it has affected his and her families. That doesn't have anything to do with Magic and is probably none of our business.
Also I think it is better to leave Chapin's name out of this. It doesn't have anything to do with him and if someone has something against him, they can just do his own separate thread.
Wizards is the one setting the precedent, of they're banning him because someone may feel unsafe, I'm sure there are people that would feel unsafe playing with a drug dealer. Hell, anyone that has ever cheated (in-game and relationships) is of low moral fiber and makes me feel unsafe, we should ban them forever too.
What he did was very bad and he didn't get enough consequences for his actions. This is all I can say about that without knowing more.
The decision to ban him for this now is just wrong. I understand that they are a business and could possibly lose "business," but this has nothing to do with the right to enter a Magic the Gathering tournament. If he has served his time according to the local police station, then there is nothing else to really say other than to check on how it has affected his and her families. That doesn't have anything to do with Magic and is probably none of our business.
Also I think it is better to leave Chapin's name out of this. It doesn't have anything to do with him and if someone has something against him, they can just do his own separate thread.
Wizards is the one setting the precedent, of they're banning him because someone may feel unsafe, I'm sure there are people that would feel unsafe playing with a drug dealer. Hell, anyone that has ever cheated (in-game and relationships) is of low moral fiber and makes me feel unsafe, we should ban them forever too.
Or you know, just ban the ones convicted of violent crimes.
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MTGO only (unless I qualify for something, rightttt). I stopped playing over-the-board years ago.
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
Chances are everyone has done something terrible in the past, he just got caught and it happened to be illegal.
Woah woah woah. Stop. STOP. Rape just "happened" to be illegal? Like, whoops, he parked in a handicap spot when he shouldn't have? Blocked a fire hydrant, perhaps?
Are you implying that "everyone" has done something on par with rape in the past?
Why am I getting gamergate vibes from so many people in this thread?
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About a month ago a pro MTG player outed him for a crime Zach Jesse committed years ago and has since done his time and has had his civil rights restored as well.
Here is a response from Zach Jesse about that:
Here
What do you think about this? Should he have been banned from sanctioned play for a crime he has since paid his time for? Is this the right decision? Is this just another example of the ever growing outrage culture and be overly sensitive about everything?
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If they had done NOTHING, they could have let the community sort this issue out by themselves.
By doing something, they establish a precedent of uncertainty that could actually damage the game.
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"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Don't get me wrong, what he's done is wrong, absolutely, but he's paid the price, he served his time. When you're released you should have a semi-clean slate, and only when repeat offense happens should this past become a real issue again. This is bollocks, really.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Rape feels 100% bad.
The clean slate only (rightfully) applies to legal and government matters. Private businesses can do whatever they want. Zach Jesse isn't entitled to play Magic: The Gathering. Perhaps he shouldn't have <overly graphic content removed> if he wanted to play trading card games that children and women also compete in. I have zero sympathy for him and I'm shocked that the majority of the community is arguing in favor of his privilege to play MTG.
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
Speaking as someone with a friend who was raped multiple times when she was 14... get off your high horse.
He served his time in prison. If you are going to keep punishing criminals after they have served their sentence, then make execution mandatory for any and all offenses. That's the purpose of prison, and he served his time.
It happened a decade ago. To ban him now is utterly crap.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
The decision to ban him for this now is just wrong. I understand that they are a business and could possibly lose "business," but this has nothing to do with the right to enter a Magic the Gathering tournament. If he has served his time according to the local police station, then there is nothing else to really say other than to check on how it has affected his and her families. That doesn't have anything to do with Magic and is probably none of our business.
Also I think it is better to leave Chapin's name out of this. It doesn't have anything to do with him and if someone has something against him, they can just do his own separate thread.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)But you weren't raped. So get off your high horse and stop speaking for someone who was raped. Denying someone a privilege to play a collectible trading card game doesn't equate to execution for all offenses. Please stop digging yourself into a hole.
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
"Please explicitly state why you don't want a rapist to potentially play against rape survivors."
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
People do stuff, people get punished. Both people ended up fine, and are probably leading happy, healthy lives. Chances are everyone has done something terrible in the past, he just got caught and it happened to be illegal. He served his time.
Things to remember -
1. One offense
2. Years of staying clean
3. Served jail time
4. As much as you may think it may just be a cover up, that reddit post seemed pretty sincere.
5. He is a human too, no matter what he has done in the past.
I'm not saying if it's right or wrong, but they have the power to do what they want.
They could also back out, but that also has its own problems.
They dug themselves into a hole either way, but I'm guessing that the above is the path of least resistance.. I could very well be wrong though.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
As I said above, Zach Jesse was one of the lucky ones. He pieced together a solid life and was overall on the best of behaviour, and now he's being punished... why, exactly? Because of some notion that "once a criminal, always a criminal"? There are a lot of things I've been disappointed with Wizards about before, but this is one of the most absolutely indefensibly stupid, thoughtless, and short-sighted things I've seen from them. Whoever made this decision needs to get a clue, because they don't even have the beginnings of one.
People do stuff, but most of us don't rape people.
I stopped reading at "Both people ended up fine".
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
But in reality, all they're doing is telling people, "if you continue to play in obscurity, it's okay, but top 8 a Grand Prix, and you WILL be banned." The way that they're doing this right now shows no empathy towards victims of crime.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Nice job dancing around my point.
He served his time. What else would he have to do? If you are going to punish someone until the end of time WHY LET THEM OUT OF JAIL IN THE FIRST PLACE?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
"WOTC unbans convicted rapist over community backlash"
I mean, that's what I keep hearing anyway.
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
Not being able to play Magic is hardly a punishment for raping a woman. Get over it.
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
Don't start with the "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR" bullcrap. One idiot got pissed that Jesse made Top 8 and posted his criminal record. Wizards made a stupid decision. That's it. No one is calling for boycotts, so drop the "SJW" boogeyman for a second. We have enough sections of the internet burned to the ground with that crap.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Wizards is the one setting the precedent, of they're banning him because someone may feel unsafe, I'm sure there are people that would feel unsafe playing with a drug dealer. Hell, anyone that has ever cheated (in-game and relationships) is of low moral fiber and makes me feel unsafe, we should ban them forever too.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Or you know, just ban the ones convicted of violent crimes.
Playing Type II only:
(:symr::symw:) Boros
(:symg:) Turbo Eldrazi
Woah woah woah. Stop. STOP. Rape just "happened" to be illegal? Like, whoops, he parked in a handicap spot when he shouldn't have? Blocked a fire hydrant, perhaps?
Are you implying that "everyone" has done something on par with rape in the past?
Why am I getting gamergate vibes from so many people in this thread?