That doesn't quite work because Death's Presence can add to any creature, not just the token we are generating. It also targets the creature, so you can always target the highest level creature to create a loop, assuming we have Cowardice or Horobi, Death's Wail. (If we don't have Cowardice or Horobi, we need to figure out a new setup to create stages.)
I made another change to the current deck, adding a morph stage and removing the Minotaur and Spirit stages. Due to the loss of those stages, we can't get to 25, unless we find another way to add one. But, it does represent a one card cut, allowing us to add a card.
That doesn't quite work because Death's Presence can add to any creature, not just the token we are generating. It also targets the creature, so you can always target the highest level creature to create a loop, assuming we have Cowardice or Horobi, Death's Wail. (If we don't have Cowardice or Horobi, we need to figure out a new setup to create stages.)
The issue isn't being able to target Master Biomancer; you can always bounce Cowardice and Horobi, Death's Wail if you want to do that. The issue is that Death's Presence and Horobi means that, if if you destroy a creature on a low stage, Death's Presence will allow you to target a creature on a high stage, destroying that and creating a more powerful effect than is allowable. Note that this is not something that you can work around with extra cards; you can just choose not to use those cards, so the deck will still go infinite.
The issue isn't being able to target Master Biomancer; you can always bounce Cowardice and Horobi, Death's Wail if you want to do that. The issue is that Death's Presence and Horobi means that, if if you destroy a creature on a low stage, Death's Presence will allow you to target a creature on a high stage, destroying that and creating a more powerful effect than is allowable. Note that this is not something that you can work around with extra cards; you can just choose not to use those cards, so the deck will still go infinite.
Both Infernal Tribute and Death's Presence are troublesome cards, in that they can be used to exchange a less valuable card for a more valuable card. At any rate, I've lost the thrust of how the combo is supposed to work. If we have Infernal Tribute, Death's Presence, Master Biomancer, Simic Manipulator, and Leyline of Anticipation, I suppose the idea is to sacrifice Simic Manipulator to Infernal Tribute. Then we use some cards to put Simic Manipulator on top of the library and draw it. We play Simic Manipulator again, and both Master Biomancer and Death's Presence put +1/+1 tokens on Simic. If Simic Manipulator had X counters and Master Biomancer has Y power, then the new Simic Manipulator has X+Y +1/+1 counters, which is more than before.
Maybe then we want to get rid of Master Biomancer. But what does cycling Simic Manipulator accomplish then? Well, I guess if it had haste it could keep targeting something, but then it would go infinite.
Both Infernal Tribute and Death's Presence are troublesome cards, in that they can be used to exchange a less valuable card for a more valuable card. At any rate, I've lost the thrust of how the combo is supposed to work. If we have Infernal Tribute, Death's Presence, Master Biomancer, Simic Manipulator, and Leyline of Anticipation, I suppose the idea is to sacrifice Simic Manipulator to Infernal Tribute. Then we use some cards to put Simic Manipulator on top of the library and draw it. We play Simic Manipulator again, and both Master Biomancer and Death's Presence put +1/+1 tokens on Simic. If Simic Manipulator had X counters and Master Biomancer has Y power, then the new Simic Manipulator has X+Y +1/+1 counters, which is more than before.
Maybe then we want to get rid of Master Biomancer. But what does cycling Simic Manipulator accomplish then? Well, I guess if it had haste it could keep targeting something, but then it would go infinite.
Here's what I want to happen:
1; Play a Master Biomancer with X counters on it and Mimic Vat. Enchant Biomancer with Sinking Feeling and Karametra's Favor.
2; Cast Simic Manipulator using 2 counters from Biomancer. Bloodbond March triggers and Simic Manipulator gets countered.
3; Manipulator dies, imprinting onto Mimic Vat, make token of size X.
4; Return Manipulator to the battlefield with a Bloodbond March trigger and then to your hand by targeting it with the token, then cast it again. This time, it will be size X-2. Put [unknown trigger] that will refresh Biomancer's counters on the stack.
5; Repeat the same process as in step 4 until we reach 2 counters on the manipulator. Then, the smallest manipulator targets Rust Tick, resulting in more copies of Bloodbond March.
6; Now we let the [unknown trigger] to put 2 counters on Master Biomancer resolve. Use these to recast Manipulator, making a 2-counter manipulator for each Bloodbond March, which make more March tokens.
7; Now let the [unknown trigger] for 4 counters on Master Biomancer resolve. Use 2 to recast Manipulator, generating another [unknown trigger] for 2. Make a bunch of 4-counter manipulator tokens.
8; Repeat step 6 for each 4-power manipulator token.
9; Once all the 4-power tokens are used up, go up to the 6-counter stage.
10; Ect. Repeat until the stack is empty.
Okay, I think I've got it. We have to start at 2 life for this to work:
- Whenever you cast Simic Manipulator:
- Draw a card, then discard a card due to Customs Depot. Predator's Rapport is on top.
- Cast it, spending one +1/+1 counter from Biomancer, gaining 2X+6 life, where X is the number of counters on Master Biomancer.
- We use that life to produce 2x+3 white mana with Standing Stones.
- The white mana is used to put 2X+3 Bolster triggers on the stack with Echoes of the Kin Tree. (Using Biomancer for white is pointless because it costs a +1/+1 counter to get another +1/+1 counter.)
- Since the Simic Manipulators will always have less toughness than Master Biomancer, you can't let the triggers resolve until we reach the bottom stage and then throw an extra 2 -1/-1 counters on to make it have the exact same toughness. Generate 2 black mana.
- In order to make sure we have an extra card in hand for next time we use Customs Depot, we'll use Sign in Blood.
First, the power/toughness between Master Biomancer and Simic Manipulator don't match up. If we have a Simic Manipulator with 4 +1/+1 counters, say, we can bolster Master Biomancer up to 1 +1/+1 counter, which will mean the next Simic Manipulator can have at most 3 +1/+1 counters, not 4.
Second, remember the Evolve keyword on Simic Manipulator; that will keep pumping up all the Simic Manipulators, which seems likely to mess up the combo.
Third, how does the Manipulator die in step #3? Keep in mind that countering a creature is not the creature dying.
I'm thinking we can remove the Splinter Twin + Crown of the Ages combination to make copies of our enchantements by adding a Skull of Orm amd using the Mimic Vat for all our token needs. Unfortunatly doing so requires a cheap way to target enchantments, and we can't use an enchantment creature in the red mana stage. The best fix I could find for that was cutting the Rust Tick stage. So without further modifications this deck is just 24 stages, and doesn't offer more free card slots.
Howerever, not building around the Splinter Twin would allow the use of transition cards with enter the battlefield or sacrifice effects. Maybe that enables some more efficient stage ordering to get to 25? Seems tough since we want to avoid transition cards anyway, but thats my best idea atm.
We also have to watch out. The lowest stage does provide artifact bounces but no way to store them. The next stage requires timed Chrome Mox bounces to function and transition down. So I think that stage (in this case green beasts) also needs to provide its own artifact bounces.
Later stages can then just use some of the red mana that was produced in the green stage for their transitions.
Skull of Orm would be better served as Crystal Chimes: in addition to potentially bringing back multiple cards at once (Bloodbond March + Psychic Battle), it also costs 3 to use instead of 5, which makes getting off the ground significantly more palatable.
That is intriguing, however in some sense it takes us further from our goal; since we lose a stage, we can't get to 25 just by cutting a card, we need to find another stage somewhere.
Going back over my list (which is surely incomplete, as I didn't catch Simic Manipulator or Old Man of the Sea) and looking at just the possible stages that aren't in the deck:
Assembly-Worker - Assembly-Workers: This is an artifact, but it needs Mimic Vat to work, so it's equivalent to an artifact stage.
Chimeras - Same Blinkmoth Nexus - Blinkmoths: a land, no Bloodbond March triggers Clockwork Gnomes, Rust Tick - Artifact Creatures: doesn't work in the new setup Crypt Sliver, Magma Sliver, Poultice Sliver - Slivers: Haven't figured out how to handle every Sliver getting all abilities. Deathmark Prelate - non-Zombies: Since we have a Zombie stage, this is equivalent to all creatures Djinn of Infinite Deceits - nonlegendary creatures: Ditto Paragon of Fierce Defiance - red creatures: No point in using up the last color. Thrull Champion - Thrulls: Possible, but no obvious transitions on either side. Dauthi Cutthroat - creatures with shadow: Another possibility Dromoka Duncaster - creatures without flying: Already have flying stage Ephara's Warden, Kor Line-Slinger - creatures with power 3 or less: Doesn't fit with power 2 or less stage Godtoucher - creatures with power 5 or greater: we need a +2 power boost, which makes this target everything along with power 2 or less. Master of the Veil, Weaver of Lies - creatures with morph: Certainly possible, but it's another blue mana stage, which is currently used by Spirits Razorfin Abolisher - target creatures with counters: we need some way to restrict counters, but if it's to Merfolk, Wizards, or blue creatures, we already have those stages. sunstrike Legionnaire - target creature with converted mana cost 3 or less: Untaps itself, otherwise this would be very good.
So, maybe Thrulls, or creatures with shadow? Not sure how to work them in though.
What do you guys think about evil_overlord's idea? Needs work, of course.
Do we really need artifact bounces at the second stage? We can get two Chrome Moxes per casting of Chrome Mox, which allows us to produce two red mana, so I figure we can spend one of them to bounce Chrome Mox, and building up are red mana storage with the other.
If you can use target blue way towards the end/or not at all Old man of the sea would effectifly be able to target power 3 or less, if there are no anthem effects for it (other than the emblem). Creature that have more base power can still follow: The only thing that effects old mans power would be emblems and that can't be removed, so no way the power of the later stages could be reduced below old mans to make them legal targets.
Bolster is an interesting idea to make sure counters can only go where we want them to. Other effects that tonly work on stuff with the greatest/lowest power/toughness could be useful as well. But the could also be avoided by just removing all the creatures we don't want to get the counters. And during the execution of ackermann stages not a lot of creatures actually stick around. Most of it is in the triggers on the stack. So that needs more thought.
What if we replace the first stage with Rust Tick? Well, we need to target enchantments somehow; Allay will do the trick, I guess. That gives us the option of transitioning to the second stage with either red mana or targeting artifacts.
You can loop the knight with the retreat as many times as you have forests and plains in the deck.
So the combo is infinite as long has you have infinite lands in the deck.
Since you technically can't have infinite lands in a physical deck, it is not an infinite combo
Per the challenge rules, deck size is fixed at 60, so you would have at most 53 cards to fetch unless you're doing some graveyard reshuffling. However, due to mana constraints, you can't actually play all those cards off the opening hand alone. The closest you get is Lotus for GGG, Petal for W, play Knight and Crossroads, then Bayou for B and Dark Ritual allows you to float 3 mana when you activate Knight for the first time. That lets you go get a Tundra or something, which you can finally tap for U to play Retreat, but by then the Knight is tapped and it is no longer possible to get any landfall triggers for Retreat to witness. Hence, the actual damage you can get out of that hand is 2.
If you read over the existing publication, it uses a step that can be repeated as much as desired, in a similar fashion, except that the opponent has to draw a card each time through and their deck size is fixed at 60 as well. That mechanism, though, is good for a lot more than one additional power each time through the loop.
Do we really need artifact bounces at the second stage? We can get two Chrome Moxes per casting of Chrome Mox, which allows us to produce two red mana, so I figure we can spend one of them to bounce Chrome Mox, and building up are red mana storage with the other.
I don't see how to get multiple red mana out of a Chrome Mox Cast, since it will only produce the mana if we have a red creature in hand at the time it enters the battlefield. Given that we are resolving the last layer of the previous stage to bounce that red creature I don't see how it would return to hand between the mirrorworks trigger and the actual cast. If you know a way to do that, please share
First, the power/toughness between Master Biomancer and Simic Manipulator don't match up. If we have a Simic Manipulator with 4 +1/+1 counters, say, we can bolster Master Biomancer up to 1 +1/+1 counter, which will mean the next Simic Manipulator can have at most 3 +1/+1 counters, not 4.
Second, remember the Evolve keyword on Simic Manipulator; that will keep pumping up all the Simic Manipulators, which seems likely to mess up the combo.
Third, how does the Manipulator die in step #3? Keep in mind that countering a creature is not the creature dying.
You're right about #1. Bolster won't work.
I'm pretty sure Evolve doesn't mess anything up since you have to tap the tokens to keep going, but just in case we can always switch to Old Man of the Sea.
If the original Old Man of the Sea can target itself, then we can go infinite by repeatedly bouncing Old Man and casting it, building up the Bloodbond March triggers as high as we care to. For that reason, we've been avoiding giving all creatures haste.
Oh wait, we don't have Omniscience. I guess it's okay then.
Biomass Mutation might work, since multiple copies don't stack. We just need to match the mana we can generate with each casting of Old Man to the power of biomancer.
Wwhen we destroy/bounce Old Man of the Sea, it will return to it's normal 2/3, so we need to keep casting Biomass Mutation each time we bolster. Might work though.
Hmm, actually I think the deck in post #386 does work; we can get copies of Balustrade Spy cheaply by making a token copy and moving Splinter Twin onto it, which just costs colorless mana (and an artifact bounce). So we have a deck with two spare card slots, so there''s an opportunity to get to 25; I still haven't figured out how to fit in Old Man of the Sea without giving up other stages, particularly Possessed Aven.
Opening Hand: Mana Crypt, Chrome Mox, random red card, Chaos Warp, Leyline of Anticipation, Precursor Golem, and Soul's Majesty.
Cast Chaos Warp, putting Mana Crypt in the library and putting Omniscience on the battlefield.
Play Leyline and Precursor Golem.
Cast Soul's Majesty targeting a Golem, getting three draws.
For the first draw (the original Precursor Golem as target), draw Mana Crypt, Feldon's Cane, Mirrorworks.
Play Mana Crypt, tap it for two mana, play Mirrorworks, play Feldon's Cane, pay two mana for the Mirrorworks trigger, getting a token copy of Feldon's Cane.
Tap and activate the Feldon's Cane token copy, shuffling the graveyard into the library.
For the second draw, draw Chaos Warp, Psychic Battle, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
Play Psychic Battle and Gideon, ALly of Zendikar.
Play Chaos Warp, getting three copies. Use Psychic Battle to switch the targets to Mana Crypt, Feldon's Cane, and Precursor Golem, cycling all three and getting two more Golems (5 total).
Play Mana Crypt, tap for two mana, Play Feldon's Cane and pay for token copy.
Tap and activate Feldon's Cane token copy.
For the third draw, draw Chaos Warp, Words of Wisdom, Starfield of Nyx, Bloodbond March.
Play Starfield of Nyx and Bloodbond March.
Play Chaos Warp, getting 5 copies. Use two to cycle Mana Crypt and Feldon's Cane, and three to cycle Precursor Golem, gettin six additional Golems (11 total).
Repeat the above process to shuffle graveyard into library.
Play Words of Wisdom, draw Chaos Warp and Soul's Majesty.
Play Chaos Warp, getting 11 copies. Use all 11 to cycle Precursor Golem, gettin 22 Golems (33 total).
Play Soul's Majesty targeting a Golem, getting 33 copies. Use Psychic Battle to transfer the target to the 11/11 Omniscience. Get 33 draws, each of at least 11 cards; I think it's fair to say this is enough to draw the whole deck and get the full combo going, even before the second Words of Wisdom.
This saves two cards compared to the current best deck, and five cards for one stage compared to the previous best deck. Unfortunately, with the loss of Goblins, it's not obvious how to get to 24 stages from here, much less 25, even though we definitely have the room now.
Does Weaver of Lies even complete its step? In order for the original to be targeted and reused, a token copy will have to turn face up (it only targets other creatures with morph). But the only way a token can be face down is if a morph trigger actually resolves. That far down, we can make Cowardice go away, but there's no way to clear out Horobi, so it doesn't seem like anything will actually be able to turn face down from it.
Ach, yes, we can't bounce Horobi. Most of the lower stages don't need Horobi, but Rust Tick does, so we can't just leave it out at the bottom. And since we're at the blue mana stage we can't afford to pay for Urgent Exorcism.
Oh well.
Edit: I suppose we can grant two Weaver of Lies tokens indestructible, and keep them around for the whole combo. Roar of challenge will do, or better perhaps is Ready // Willing and then bounce the creatures we don't want indestructible on. But that gives up the card we saved anyway.
Can we replace Words of Wisdom with Floating-Dream Zubera? As I understand it after that dies the 61st time we will draw dead, so its self limiting card draw and it can be used as the blue spirit target.
We can start with rust tick <- enchantments(r) <- minotaurs <- spirits(u) <- beasts(g) <- treefolk(b) <- vampires <- ... and continue as in the 25 stage deck.
I don't know if the start up would work and the Consecrated Sphinx is now useless, but hopefully there's some card that replaces the sphinx and makes wthis work. If Precursor Golem works for the start we could even have its double layer nature.
Edit: Using Learn from the Past instead of Feldon's Cane might help with the start. We really only need to move cards from graveyard to library when we want to redraw our instant/sorceries, and the extra draw a card is useful. The only places during the combo that care about cards in library are Seahunter and Psychic Battle. The former has its target put in the library by mirror of fate anyway. The latter can be replaced by Grip of Chaos if necessary.
I made another change to the current deck, adding a morph stage and removing the Minotaur and Spirit stages. Due to the loss of those stages, we can't get to 25, unless we find another way to add one. But, it does represent a one card cut, allowing us to add a card.
Losing Spirits means that Mindshrieker is gone, but I did find a passable replacement: Balustrade Spy. Unfortunately, this doesn't jibe with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, so we replace the latter with Feldon's Cane. (Reito Lantern is also an option.) We can then replace Consecrated Sphinx with Soul's Majesty:
2 Splinter Twin
3 Mana Crypt
4 Rust Tick
5 Archetype of Aggression
6 Gleeful Sabotage
7 Izzet Guildmage
8 Imperial Hellkite
9 Weaver of Lies
10 Krosan Groundshaker
11 Lumberknot
12 Black Poplar Shaman
13 Balustrade Spy
14 Baron Sengir
15 Empress Galina
16 Merfolk Sovereign
17 Seahunter
18 Mercenary Informer
19 Boreal Griffin
20 Boreal Druid
21 Ohran Yeti
23 Nectar Faerie
24 Ghosthelm Courier
25 Possessed Aven
26 Grassland Crusader
27 Possessed Nomad
28 Shauku's Minion
29 Centaur Archer
30 Maze Glider
31 Paragon of Eternal Wilds
32 Devout Chaplain
33 Royal Assassin
34 Goblin Tunnelers
35 Flamestick Courier
36 Dralnu's Crusade
37 Frightshroud Courier
38 Paragon of Open Graves
39 Karplusan Yeti
40 Chaos Warp
41 Soul's Majesty
42 Words of Wisdom
44 Precursor Golem
45 Mirrorworks
46 Feldon's Cane
47 Crown of the Ages
48 Mimic Vat
49 Chrome Mox
50 Mirror Gallery
51 Invoke Prejudice
52 Cowardice
53 Horobi, Death's Wall
54 Psychic Battle
55 Omniscience
56 Leyline of Anticipation
57 Starfield of Nyx
58 Karn, Silver Golem
59 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
60 Mirror of Fate
Derp, just realized that Balustrade Spy can't be bounced often enough for the lower stages. I guess we don't save a card with this.
Edit: Deathrite Shaman could serve to put cards back in the library, if there were a way to keep the opponent from dying.
I've figured out a workaround that lets us target Master Biomancer while Cowardice and/or Horobi, Death's Wail are in play.
Since there's only 1 nontoken Simic Manipulator and it has to be put on the Mimic Vat, anything other than Master Biomancer would be a token that gets bounced or killed. We'll use Diffusion Sliver and either Artificial Evolution naming elf or Wings of Velis Vel
What if we use Infernal Tribute rather than Horobi, Death's Wail? That way Death's Presence can only be triggered with nontoken creatures. That way we can keep Cowardice.
Maybe then we want to get rid of Master Biomancer. But what does cycling Simic Manipulator accomplish then? Well, I guess if it had haste it could keep targeting something, but then it would go infinite.
Here's what I want to happen:
1; Play a Master Biomancer with X counters on it and Mimic Vat. Enchant Biomancer with Sinking Feeling and Karametra's Favor.
2; Cast Simic Manipulator using 2 counters from Biomancer. Bloodbond March triggers and Simic Manipulator gets countered.
3; Manipulator dies, imprinting onto Mimic Vat, make token of size X.
4; Return Manipulator to the battlefield with a Bloodbond March trigger and then to your hand by targeting it with the token, then cast it again. This time, it will be size X-2. Put [unknown trigger] that will refresh Biomancer's counters on the stack.
5; Repeat the same process as in step 4 until we reach 2 counters on the manipulator. Then, the smallest manipulator targets Rust Tick, resulting in more copies of Bloodbond March.
6; Now we let the [unknown trigger] to put 2 counters on Master Biomancer resolve. Use these to recast Manipulator, making a 2-counter manipulator for each Bloodbond March, which make more March tokens.
7; Now let the [unknown trigger] for 4 counters on Master Biomancer resolve. Use 2 to recast Manipulator, generating another [unknown trigger] for 2. Make a bunch of 4-counter manipulator tokens.
8; Repeat step 6 for each 4-power manipulator token.
9; Once all the 4-power tokens are used up, go up to the 6-counter stage.
10; Ect. Repeat until the stack is empty.
So we need a combination of cards that:
- Whenever you cast Simic Manipulator:
- Draw a card, then discard a card due to Customs Depot. Predator's Rapport is on top.
- Cast it, spending one +1/+1 counter from Biomancer, gaining 2X+6 life, where X is the number of counters on Master Biomancer.
- We use that life to produce 2x+3 white mana with Standing Stones.
- The white mana is used to put 2X+3 Bolster triggers on the stack with Echoes of the Kin Tree. (Using Biomancer for white is pointless because it costs a +1/+1 counter to get another +1/+1 counter.)
- Since the Simic Manipulators will always have less toughness than Master Biomancer, you can't let the triggers resolve until we reach the bottom stage and then throw an extra 2 -1/-1 counters on to make it have the exact same toughness. Generate 2 black mana.
- In order to make sure we have an extra card in hand for next time we use Customs Depot, we'll use Sign in Blood.
EDIT: Typo
First, the power/toughness between Master Biomancer and Simic Manipulator don't match up. If we have a Simic Manipulator with 4 +1/+1 counters, say, we can bolster Master Biomancer up to 1 +1/+1 counter, which will mean the next Simic Manipulator can have at most 3 +1/+1 counters, not 4.
Second, remember the Evolve keyword on Simic Manipulator; that will keep pumping up all the Simic Manipulators, which seems likely to mess up the combo.
Third, how does the Manipulator die in step #3? Keep in mind that countering a creature is not the creature dying.
Howerever, not building around the Splinter Twin would allow the use of transition cards with enter the battlefield or sacrifice effects. Maybe that enables some more efficient stage ordering to get to 25? Seems tough since we want to avoid transition cards anyway, but thats my best idea atm.
2 Mana Crypt
3 Iron Myr
4 Gleeful Sabotage
5 Izzet Guildmage
6 Batterhorn
7 Krosan Groundshaker
8 Ironwood Treefolk
9 Black Poplar Shaman
10 Fellhide Brawler
11 Anaba Ancestor
12 Urgent Exorcism
13 Mindshrieker
14 Duskmantle Seer
15 Baron Sengir
16 Empress Galina
17 Merfolk Sovereign
18 Seahunter
19 Mercenary Informer
20 Boreal Griffin
21 Boeral Druid
22 Ohran Yeti
24 Nectar Faerie
25 Ghosthelm Courier
26 Possessed Aven
27 Grassland Crusader
28 Possessed Nomad
29 Shauku's Minion
30 Centaur Archer
31 Maze Glider
32 Paragon of Eternal Wilds
33 Devout Chaplain
34 Royal Assassin
35 Goblin Tunnelers
36 Flamestick Courier
37 Dralnu's Crusade
38 Frightshroud Courier
39 Paragon of Open Graves
40 Karplusan Yeti
41 Chaos Warp
42 Precursor Golem
43 Firemind's Foresight
44 Words of Wisdom
46 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
47 Mimic Vat
48 Chrome Mox
49 Mirror Gallery
50 Cephalid Shrine
51 Bloodbond March
52 Cowardice
53 Horobi, Death's Wail
54 Psychic Battle
55 Omniscience
56 Leyline of Anticipation
57 Starfield of Nyx
58 Karn, Silver Golem
59 Mirror of Fate
60 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
We also have to watch out. The lowest stage does provide artifact bounces but no way to store them. The next stage requires timed Chrome Mox bounces to function and transition down. So I think that stage (in this case green beasts) also needs to provide its own artifact bounces.
Later stages can then just use some of the red mana that was produced in the green stage for their transitions.
Going back over my list (which is surely incomplete, as I didn't catch Simic Manipulator or Old Man of the Sea) and looking at just the possible stages that aren't in the deck:
Assembly-Worker - Assembly-Workers: This is an artifact, but it needs Mimic Vat to work, so it's equivalent to an artifact stage.
Chimeras - Same
Blinkmoth Nexus - Blinkmoths: a land, no Bloodbond March triggers
Clockwork Gnomes, Rust Tick - Artifact Creatures: doesn't work in the new setup
Crypt Sliver, Magma Sliver, Poultice Sliver - Slivers: Haven't figured out how to handle every Sliver getting all abilities.
Deathmark Prelate - non-Zombies: Since we have a Zombie stage, this is equivalent to all creatures
Djinn of Infinite Deceits - nonlegendary creatures: Ditto
Paragon of Fierce Defiance - red creatures: No point in using up the last color.
Thrull Champion - Thrulls: Possible, but no obvious transitions on either side.
Dauthi Cutthroat - creatures with shadow: Another possibility
Dromoka Duncaster - creatures without flying: Already have flying stage
Ephara's Warden, Kor Line-Slinger - creatures with power 3 or less: Doesn't fit with power 2 or less stage
Godtoucher - creatures with power 5 or greater: we need a +2 power boost, which makes this target everything along with power 2 or less.
Master of the Veil, Weaver of Lies - creatures with morph: Certainly possible, but it's another blue mana stage, which is currently used by Spirits
Razorfin Abolisher - target creatures with counters: we need some way to restrict counters, but if it's to Merfolk, Wizards, or blue creatures, we already have those stages.
sunstrike Legionnaire - target creature with converted mana cost 3 or less: Untaps itself, otherwise this would be very good.
So, maybe Thrulls, or creatures with shadow? Not sure how to work them in though.
What do you guys think about evil_overlord's idea? Needs work, of course.
Do we really need artifact bounces at the second stage? We can get two Chrome Moxes per casting of Chrome Mox, which allows us to produce two red mana, so I figure we can spend one of them to bounce Chrome Mox, and building up are red mana storage with the other.
Bolster is an interesting idea to make sure counters can only go where we want them to. Other effects that tonly work on stuff with the greatest/lowest power/toughness could be useful as well. But the could also be avoided by just removing all the creatures we don't want to get the counters. And during the execution of ackermann stages not a lot of creatures actually stick around. Most of it is in the triggers on the stack. So that needs more thought.
If you have an opening hand of:
Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Bayou
Knight of the reliquary
Retreat to Coralhelm
Concordant Crossroads
You can loop the knight with the retreat as many times as you have forests and plains in the deck.
So the combo is infinite as long has you have infinite lands in the deck.
Since you technically can't have infinite lands in a physical deck, it is not an infinite combo
Come to the blue side, we have cookies!
If you read over the existing publication, it uses a step that can be repeated as much as desired, in a similar fashion, except that the opponent has to draw a card each time through and their deck size is fixed at 60 as well. That mechanism, though, is good for a lot more than one additional power each time through the loop.
I don't see how to get multiple red mana out of a Chrome Mox Cast, since it will only produce the mana if we have a red creature in hand at the time it enters the battlefield. Given that we are resolving the last layer of the previous stage to bounce that red creature I don't see how it would return to hand between the mirrorworks trigger and the actual cast. If you know a way to do that, please share
You're right about #1. Bolster won't work.
I'm pretty sure Evolve doesn't mess anything up since you have to tap the tokens to keep going, but just in case we can always switch to Old Man of the Sea.
I forgot to mention that the first time Old Man enters the battlefield from Bloodbond March, it targets itself using Horobi, Death's Wail.
Oh wait, we don't have Omniscience. I guess it's okay then.
The start with Soul's Majesty is quite fast:
Opening Hand: Mana Crypt, Chrome Mox, random red card, Chaos Warp, Leyline of Anticipation, Precursor Golem, and Soul's Majesty.
Cast Chaos Warp, putting Mana Crypt in the library and putting Omniscience on the battlefield.
Play Leyline and Precursor Golem.
Cast Soul's Majesty targeting a Golem, getting three draws.
For the first draw (the original Precursor Golem as target), draw Mana Crypt, Feldon's Cane, Mirrorworks.
Play Mana Crypt, tap it for two mana, play Mirrorworks, play Feldon's Cane, pay two mana for the Mirrorworks trigger, getting a token copy of Feldon's Cane.
Tap and activate the Feldon's Cane token copy, shuffling the graveyard into the library.
For the second draw, draw Chaos Warp, Psychic Battle, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
Play Psychic Battle and Gideon, ALly of Zendikar.
Play Chaos Warp, getting three copies. Use Psychic Battle to switch the targets to Mana Crypt, Feldon's Cane, and Precursor Golem, cycling all three and getting two more Golems (5 total).
Play Mana Crypt, tap for two mana, Play Feldon's Cane and pay for token copy.
Tap and activate Feldon's Cane token copy.
For the third draw, draw Chaos Warp, Words of Wisdom, Starfield of Nyx, Bloodbond March.
Play Starfield of Nyx and Bloodbond March.
Play Chaos Warp, getting 5 copies. Use two to cycle Mana Crypt and Feldon's Cane, and three to cycle Precursor Golem, gettin six additional Golems (11 total).
Repeat the above process to shuffle graveyard into library.
Play Words of Wisdom, draw Chaos Warp and Soul's Majesty.
Play Chaos Warp, getting 11 copies. Use all 11 to cycle Precursor Golem, gettin 22 Golems (33 total).
Play Soul's Majesty targeting a Golem, getting 33 copies. Use Psychic Battle to transfer the target to the 11/11 Omniscience. Get 33 draws, each of at least 11 cards; I think it's fair to say this is enough to draw the whole deck and get the full combo going, even before the second Words of Wisdom.
Here's an efficient first part of the sequence:
2 Splinter Twin
3 Mana Crypt
4 Rust Tick
5 Goblin Welder
6 Goblin Taskmaster
8 Krosan Groundshaker
9 Lumberknot
10 Black Poplar Shaman
11 Balustrade Spy
12 Baron Sengir
14 Merfolk Sovereign
15 Seahunter
16 Mercenary Informer
This saves two cards compared to the current best deck, and five cards for one stage compared to the previous best deck. Unfortunately, with the loss of Goblins, it's not obvious how to get to 24 stages from here, much less 25, even though we definitely have the room now.
Oh well.
Edit: I suppose we can grant two Weaver of Lies tokens indestructible, and keep them around for the whole combo. Roar of challenge will do, or better perhaps is Ready // Willing and then bounce the creatures we don't want indestructible on. But that gives up the card we saved anyway.
We can start with rust tick <- enchantments(r) <- minotaurs <- spirits(u) <- beasts(g) <- treefolk(b) <- vampires <- ... and continue as in the 25 stage deck.
I don't know if the start up would work and the Consecrated Sphinx is now useless, but hopefully there's some card that replaces the sphinx and makes wthis work. If Precursor Golem works for the start we could even have its double layer nature.
2 Splinter Twin
3 Mana Crypt
4 Rust Tick
5 Archetype of Aggression
6 Gleeful Sabotage
7 Anaba Bodyguard
8 Anaba Ancestor
9 Urgent Exorcism
10 Floating-Dream Zubera
11 Izzet Guildmage
12 Aquamoeba
13 Krosan Groundshaker
14 Blanchwood Treefolk
15 Black Poplar Shaman
16 Balustrade Spy
17 Baron Sengir
18 Empress Galina
19 Merfolk Sovereign
20 Seahunter
21 Mercenary Informer
23 Boreal Druid
24 Ohran Yeti
25 Everglove Courier
26 Nectar Faerie
27 Ghosthelm Courier
28 Possessed Aven
29 Grassland Crusader
30 Possessed Nomad
31 Shauku's Minion
32 Centaur Archer
33 Maze Glider
34 Paragon of Eternal Wilds
35 Devout Chaplain
36 Royal Assassin
37 Goblin Tunneler
38 Mad Auntie
39 Dralnu's Crusade
40 Frightshroud Courier
41 Paragon of Open Graves
43 Chaos Warp
44 Precursor Golem
45 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
46 Mirrorworks
47 Crown of the Ages
48 Mimic Vat
49 Chrome Mox
50 Mirror Gallery
51 Cephalid Shrine
52 Cowardice
53 Horobi, Death's Wail
54 Psychic Battle
55 Omniscience
56 Leyline of Anticipation
57 Starfield of Nyx
58 Karn, Silver Golem
59 Feldon's Cane
60 Mirror of Fate
Edit: Using Learn from the Past instead of Feldon's Cane might help with the start. We really only need to move cards from graveyard to library when we want to redraw our instant/sorceries, and the extra draw a card is useful. The only places during the combo that care about cards in library are Seahunter and Psychic Battle. The former has its target put in the library by mirror of fate anyway. The latter can be replaced by Grip of Chaos if necessary.