I'm afraid you have a misunderstanding about what it means to have "X Ackermann stages". X Ackermann stages is not resolving an Ackermann stage X times; rather, one stage + one layer is resolving one stage X times. One stage + two layers means resolving one stage + one layer X times, one stage + three layers is resolving one stage + two layers X times, and so on. Then two stages means one stage + X layers. Then two stages + one layer is resolving two stages X times, and the pattern continues. So even one stages + two layers leads to resolving the first stage an enormous number of times.
For example, take a look at the latest decklist. The Rust Tick stage can be applied each time we create X Rust Tick tokens. The second stage, using Archetype of Agression, creates X layers when we have X red mana. The topmost layer of that stack creates X Rust Ticks each time it is resolved, so that's one stage + one layer; the second layer from the top refreshes the topmost layer each time it is resolved, so that's one stage + two layers; and so on. So Rust Tick + Archetype Agression truly represents two stages.
In your setup, you pay two life each time you resolve two stages, so you get only as many resolutions of the first stage as you have life. To create X Ackermann stages, we need to have some setup where we pay some resource (like blue mana or life) to reset the base Ackermann stage, BUT you get that resource back somehow. To keep that setup from going infinite, we need that replenishment of the resource to be limited somehow, so that we can't just pay, get it back, pay, get it back, etc. For our Ackermann stages, this is handled using Bloodbond March; each time we resolve a Bloodbond March, it gets us our card back that we expended to create a token, but only as long as we have Bloodbond March triggers, so we must first initially bounce the original creature and cast it in order to get the Bloodbond March triggers, and this need for an upfront casting keeps things from going infinite. Perhaps it could be used here via Homura.
The other thing we need is, once the Homura Bloodbond March triggers are all used up, we need to be able th refresh those triggers by the next layer down, which in this case would be a Centaur Archer or Ephara's Warden trigger. But if Centaur Archer or Ephara's Warden could target Homura, that seems like an infinite. So we have a tricky situation here.
Now the question is, why would a trigger of say Ephara's Warden (say) replenish blue mana / life from lower in the stack, but wouldn't work using one of the Ephara's Warden triggers at the topmost level? That's the million dollar question.
Now that I think about it, it's not really necessary to invert the targeting direction to create a hyperstage. What we need to do with the higher level trigger is to refresh the lower stage, which can be done in the usual way by creating X tokens or X mana, not necessarily inverting the direction. What's important is how that higher level trigger is refreshed.
Edit: Going back to the plain 'ol Ackermann deck, I believe Shriekhorn can be replaced by Hair-Strung Koto for better results. So long as we draw a creature, we can use Chaos Warp to recycle Mana Crypt each draw, getting two new cards and two new mana per draw, as opposed to one card and one mana using the Shriekhorn strategy. I believe this should allow the first Ackermann combo to go off a few turns earlier, on the sixth or seventh Words of Wisdom.
Hair-Strung Koto, of course, means that the nontoken creatures (the ones without haste) can tap freely at any time. This invalidates what Royal Assassin is doing; since the Mad Auntie/Goblin Tunneler section just beyond it already has a problem, it may end up being paved over from a lower point anyway.
Hm, right. Exiting into Red Paragon from there doesn't work, because the Paragon will be incapable of cleaning up all of its ranks and that will make the Tunneler incapable of doing its thing as we tunnel back down through the steps (after one iteration of a higher step, there will be at least one lingering permanent that forces the Tunneler up to 3 power, and no way of fixing that except with help from something even higher than that). But Dralnu's Crusade, even with Black Paragon following it up, does work because Dralnu's Crusade is an enchantment and can be dispatched rather cheaply when we need to go across that transition.
I found an even better card than Hair-Strung Koto to replace Shriekhorn: Mindshrieker. Mindshrieker can be our blue spirit, which gives us a card slot to add Precursor Golem. And that adds a couple of layers, as well as allowing for a very fast start.
Also, it puts us one card cut away from 25 layers, which I think would be the most we could hope for with 60 cards. I'm not sure where we'd get that last card cut though.
Actually, with the Precursor Golem we have exactly one layer after the 24 stages. Remember that the input for the last stage is X tokens of Karplusan Yeti. And it doesn't matter how many Psychic Battle triggers we get I don't see a way to get more than one token out of a Chaos Warp resolution, due to the timing with Bloodbond March triggers that would be required to get the yeti back on the battlefield if we don't use the chaos warp reveal.
The Golem gives us X Chaos Warps per cast, creating X Yetis. So one chaos warp cast means going through 24 stages. Words of Wisdom with Sphinx then adds a layer on top of that.
Actually, the Precursor Golem gives us X Precursor Golem triggers, one per Precursor Golem. Each time a Precursor Golem trigger resolves we get X Chaos Warps, one per Golem. So each Precursor Golem trigger gets us X Karplusan Yetis, and each Chaos Warp is a layer above that. Each Words of Wisdom is a layer above that. So you could call that either two or three layers; the final damage will be 10 -> ... -> N -> 4, where N should be about 50.
Cast manipulator. In response to all the bloodbond march triggers, cast Cowardice. Make a bunch of token copies of it off of Bloodbond March with X power as the top stage. Then, use the last copy of Manipulator to bounce itself. Cast it putting 2 -1/-1 counters on Biomancer. It will enter the battlefield with X-2 power, so the tokens you made before can all target it. Repeat this until you've reached the bottom of the first layer.
Then, we just need to figure out how to reset Master Biomancer's power each layer.
Opening hand: Chrome Mox, Flamestick Courier, Mana Crypt, Chaos Warp, Leyline of Anticipation, Consecrated Sphinx, Words of Wisdom
Cast Chaos Warp, put Mana Crypt in the library and Omniscience onto the battlefield.
Cast Words of Wisdom (52 cards), draw Mindshrieker and Mana Crypt. Play both, tap Mana Crypt for two mana and activate Mindshieker, milling Emrakul and shuffling the graveyard into the library, including Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom.
Consecrated Sphinx trigger, draw Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom
Cast second Words of Wisdom (51 cards), draw Precursor Golem and Psychic Battle, playing both, and getting two additional Golem tokens. Play Chaos Warp on Precursor Golem, getting three copies. Cycle Mana Crypt once and Precursor Golem twice, creating four more Golems and getting two mana. Activate Mindshrieker, shuffling graveyard into library.
Consecrated Sphinx trigger, drawing Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom. Cast Chaos Warp, getting seven copies. Cycle Precursor Golem 6 times and Mana Crypt once, getting 12 additional Golem tokens (18 total) and two mana. Activate Mindshrieker.
Cast third Words of Wisdom (50 cards), drawing Archetype of Aggression and Chaos Warp. Cast Chaos Warp on Precursor Golem, getting 19 copies. Cycle Mana Crypt once and Precursor Golem 18 times, getting 36 more Golem tokens (54 total). Activate Mindshrieker.
Consecrated Sphinx trigger, drawing Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom. Cast Chaos Warp, getting 55 copies. This should allow us to get an Ackermann combo going, and generate an enourmous number of Consecrated Sphinxes. At the very worst, we could cycle Precursor Golem 54 times, adding 108 Precursor Golems (162 total).
Cast the fourth Words of Wisdom (49 cards). With an enormous number of Consecrated Sphinxes, we will be able to access the full combo now. Even at the very worst, we can draw Urgent Exorcism, and cast Chaos Warp gettin 168 copies, so we will still be able to access the full combo. So we get 50 castings of Words of Wisdom with the full combo, and the final damage will be at least 10 -> ... -> 50 -> 4.
Sinking Feeling is way too good in this build. Instead of putting it on Master Biomancer, it can go on any lower creature with at least 2 toughness (hint: this will be all of them), which also holds the Splinter Twin. Make a copy of itself, untap, make another copy of itself. Now one copy turns into two, so one of them is free to play whatever its role in the sequence normally is, and this will easily produce enough colorless mana to move both Auras onto the second token, which has the same initial conditions as the starting point of the loop. Repeat forever.
If evil_overlord makes something with potential, we could try to remake the deck to not have Splinter Twin. But what are Karametra's Gift and Manipulator?
Hmm, intereting; I missed Simic Manipulator in my list of self-targeting creatures, so I potentially could have missed a lot of them. Maybe I should go searching again.
It does look like Simic Manipulator is worth a stage, as it is a creature that can target itself when it taps. But, to get multiple stages from Simic Manipulator, you would need some way of creating X-2 Manipulators while evaluating the X Manipulator stage, in addition to the X Manipulator tokens that get generated. Note that the idea of optionally decreasing Master Biomancer can't work, since instead of creating X-2 Manipulators, you could just not decrease Master Biomancer and create more powerful X Manipulators instead, leading to an infinite loop. So, we would need some way for X Manipulators to create smaller Manipulators, where we have no choice but for the new Manipulators be smaller.
Certainly a very interesting idea!
Edit: Hmmm, I think multiple stages will be very hard to make work with Simic Manipulator's Evolve keyword. If there were a version without Evolve, that would probably be better.
Just checking, but there's no way to have Boreal Druid or Everglove Courier fulfill there normal duties, and also be used on Chrome Mox, is there? I was thinking of moving the green mana stage to after the white mana stage, and then link to Boreal Druid without Boreal Griffin, but I don't think it works.
Hmm, intereting; I missed Simic Manipulator in my list of self-targeting creatures, so I potentially could have missed a lot of them. Maybe I should go searching again.
It does look like Simic Manipulator is worth a stage, as it is a creature that can target itself when it taps. But, to get multiple stages from Simic Manipulator, you would need some way of creating X-2 Manipulators while evaluating the X Manipulator stage, in addition to the X Manipulator tokens that get generated. Note that the idea of optionally decreasing Master Biomancer can't work, since instead of creating X-2 Manipulators, you could just not decrease Master Biomancer and create more powerful X Manipulators instead, leading to an infinite loop. So, we would need some way for X Manipulators to create smaller Manipulators, where we have no choice but for the new Manipulators be smaller.
Certainly a very interesting idea!
Edit: Hmmm, I think multiple stages will be very hard to make work with Simic Manipulator's Evolve keyword. If there were a version without Evolve, that would probably be better.
The problem is that you will be activating the ability a whole lot more times than once per stage. If Master Biomancer starts with X+1 toughness, then we can activate Unliving Psychopath's ability exactly X times before we have to refresh Master Biomancer. So Unliving Psychopath gets bounced a total of X times, which means it's worth a layer, not a stage.
The problem is that you will be activating the ability a whole lot more times than once per stage. If Master Biomancer starts with X+1 toughness, then we can activate Unliving Psychopath's ability exactly X times before we have to refresh Master Biomancer. So Unliving Psychopath gets bounced a total of X times, which means it's worth a layer, not a stage.
Right. Would it be possible to make the deck work without Omniscience then? It would be inconvenient but worth it.
It would be difficult, but perhaps possible, so let's go with it for now. The problem is that, to implement a stage, you need to cast creatures a gazillion times as well to keep refreshing the Bloodbond Marches. If we have 2X blue mana, then we can refresh the Bloodbond Marches of Simic Manipulator X times, and that's just not enough for a stage.
But I guess what you are looking for is a system where Master Biomancer keeps getting refreshed. I suppose that's a possibility, but what we would need is for Master Biomancer to always refresh to exactly the stage we are currently operating on; if we tap a token Simic Manipulator to destroy the original, we need the Mimic Vat to create a token that comes into play with the exact same number of +1/+1 counters as the original token. I have no idea how we would arrange that.
It would be difficult, but perhaps possible, so let's go with it for now. The problem is that, to implement a stage, you need to cast creatures a gazillion times as well to keep refreshing the Bloodbond Marches. If we have 2X blue mana, then we can refresh the Bloodbond Marches of Simic Manipulator X times, and that's just not enough for a stage.
But I guess what you are looking for is a system where Master Biomancer keeps getting refreshed. I suppose that's a possibility, but what we would need is for Master Biomancer to always refresh to exactly the stage we are currently operating on; if we tap a token Simic Manipulator to destroy the original, we need the Mimic Vat to create a token that comes into play with the exact same number of +1/+1 counters as the original token. I have no idea how we would arrange that.
For example, take a look at the latest decklist. The Rust Tick stage can be applied each time we create X Rust Tick tokens. The second stage, using Archetype of Agression, creates X layers when we have X red mana. The topmost layer of that stack creates X Rust Ticks each time it is resolved, so that's one stage + one layer; the second layer from the top refreshes the topmost layer each time it is resolved, so that's one stage + two layers; and so on. So Rust Tick + Archetype Agression truly represents two stages.
In your setup, you pay two life each time you resolve two stages, so you get only as many resolutions of the first stage as you have life. To create X Ackermann stages, we need to have some setup where we pay some resource (like blue mana or life) to reset the base Ackermann stage, BUT you get that resource back somehow. To keep that setup from going infinite, we need that replenishment of the resource to be limited somehow, so that we can't just pay, get it back, pay, get it back, etc. For our Ackermann stages, this is handled using Bloodbond March; each time we resolve a Bloodbond March, it gets us our card back that we expended to create a token, but only as long as we have Bloodbond March triggers, so we must first initially bounce the original creature and cast it in order to get the Bloodbond March triggers, and this need for an upfront casting keeps things from going infinite. Perhaps it could be used here via Homura.
The other thing we need is, once the Homura Bloodbond March triggers are all used up, we need to be able th refresh those triggers by the next layer down, which in this case would be a Centaur Archer or Ephara's Warden trigger. But if Centaur Archer or Ephara's Warden could target Homura, that seems like an infinite. So we have a tricky situation here.
Ah, I understand now.
Edit: Going back to the plain 'ol Ackermann deck, I believe Shriekhorn can be replaced by Hair-Strung Koto for better results. So long as we draw a creature, we can use Chaos Warp to recycle Mana Crypt each draw, getting two new cards and two new mana per draw, as opposed to one card and one mana using the Shriekhorn strategy. I believe this should allow the first Ackermann combo to go off a few turns earlier, on the sixth or seventh Words of Wisdom.
If Mad Auntie is a problem, we can replace it with Flamestick Courier.
What is the problem with Goblin Tunneler / Mad Auntie?
Also, it puts us one card cut away from 25 layers, which I think would be the most we could hope for with 60 cards. I'm not sure where we'd get that last card cut though.
The Golem gives us X Chaos Warps per cast, creating X Yetis. So one chaos warp cast means going through 24 stages. Words of Wisdom with Sphinx then adds a layer on top of that.
You need a Master Biomancer with a large number of +1/+1 counters on it, enchanted with Sinking Feeling and Karametra's Gift.
Cast manipulator. In response to all the bloodbond march triggers, cast Cowardice. Make a bunch of token copies of it off of Bloodbond March with X power as the top stage. Then, use the last copy of Manipulator to bounce itself. Cast it putting 2 -1/-1 counters on Biomancer. It will enter the battlefield with X-2 power, so the tokens you made before can all target it. Repeat this until you've reached the bottom of the first layer.
Then, we just need to figure out how to reset Master Biomancer's power each layer.
Opening hand: Chrome Mox, Flamestick Courier, Mana Crypt, Chaos Warp, Leyline of Anticipation, Consecrated Sphinx, Words of Wisdom
Cast Chaos Warp, put Mana Crypt in the library and Omniscience onto the battlefield.
Cast Words of Wisdom (52 cards), draw Mindshrieker and Mana Crypt. Play both, tap Mana Crypt for two mana and activate Mindshieker, milling Emrakul and shuffling the graveyard into the library, including Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom.
Consecrated Sphinx trigger, draw Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom
Cast second Words of Wisdom (51 cards), draw Precursor Golem and Psychic Battle, playing both, and getting two additional Golem tokens. Play Chaos Warp on Precursor Golem, getting three copies. Cycle Mana Crypt once and Precursor Golem twice, creating four more Golems and getting two mana. Activate Mindshrieker, shuffling graveyard into library.
Consecrated Sphinx trigger, drawing Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom. Cast Chaos Warp, getting seven copies. Cycle Precursor Golem 6 times and Mana Crypt once, getting 12 additional Golem tokens (18 total) and two mana. Activate Mindshrieker.
Cast third Words of Wisdom (50 cards), drawing Archetype of Aggression and Chaos Warp. Cast Chaos Warp on Precursor Golem, getting 19 copies. Cycle Mana Crypt once and Precursor Golem 18 times, getting 36 more Golem tokens (54 total). Activate Mindshrieker.
Consecrated Sphinx trigger, drawing Chaos Warp and Words of Wisdom. Cast Chaos Warp, getting 55 copies. This should allow us to get an Ackermann combo going, and generate an enourmous number of Consecrated Sphinxes. At the very worst, we could cycle Precursor Golem 54 times, adding 108 Precursor Golems (162 total).
Cast the fourth Words of Wisdom (49 cards). With an enormous number of Consecrated Sphinxes, we will be able to access the full combo now. Even at the very worst, we can draw Urgent Exorcism, and cast Chaos Warp gettin 168 copies, so we will still be able to access the full combo. So we get 50 castings of Words of Wisdom with the full combo, and the final damage will be at least 10 -> ... -> 50 -> 4.
It does look like Simic Manipulator is worth a stage, as it is a creature that can target itself when it taps. But, to get multiple stages from Simic Manipulator, you would need some way of creating X-2 Manipulators while evaluating the X Manipulator stage, in addition to the X Manipulator tokens that get generated. Note that the idea of optionally decreasing Master Biomancer can't work, since instead of creating X-2 Manipulators, you could just not decrease Master Biomancer and create more powerful X Manipulators instead, leading to an infinite loop. So, we would need some way for X Manipulators to create smaller Manipulators, where we have no choice but for the new Manipulators be smaller.
Certainly a very interesting idea!
Edit: Hmmm, I think multiple stages will be very hard to make work with Simic Manipulator's Evolve keyword. If there were a version without Evolve, that would probably be better.
You have to decrease Master Biomancer to make more Manipulators because you need it to produce blue mana, and the only way to produce blue is through Sinking Feeling and Karametra's Favor.
Oh right.
Unliving Psychopath solves that problem though, since you need mana to activate its ability.
Right. Would it be possible to make the deck work without Omniscience then? It would be inconvenient but worth it.
But I guess what you are looking for is a system where Master Biomancer keeps getting refreshed. I suppose that's a possibility, but what we would need is for Master Biomancer to always refresh to exactly the stage we are currently operating on; if we tap a token Simic Manipulator to destroy the original, we need the Mimic Vat to create a token that comes into play with the exact same number of +1/+1 counters as the original token. I have no idea how we would arrange that.
Death's Presence does exactly that.