I've thought about mutate for various things, but it doesn't work in this deck since it allows goblin boom keg to die while being a creature without orrery dying too. (And the legendary mutate cards are another way to kill a boom keg).
Ok so everything that applies in the same layer uses timestamps to determine their effect by default.
For example activating a mutavault with humility in play will still make a 2/2, as mutavault overwrites humility's p/t effect.
But if the effect of the layer are dependent on one another then they are automagically applied in the 'correct' order (bigger effects).
So Dralnu's crusades set on B->C and A->B will make all As ABCs, regardless of timestamp order.
But if there's a dependency loop, like another crusade on C->A, then that forms a loop and it goes back to timestamps. (assuming there are creatures of the relevant types in play)
So playing the three in that order would turn As into ABs, Cs into CAs and Bs into ABCs. Notably the As are not Cs anymore when the cycle is completed.
So its not difficult to imagine them in a nearly complete cycle and behaving as we'd want for computation, then suddenly behaving differently when we completed the loop.
This can (ALMOST) be used to replace Artificial Evolution between computations after setup, as we would have enough control to setup the exact size of the next program and ensure its one that doesn't halt quickly.
However the same rule also applies to Artifical Evolution itself as it applies a very similar text changing effect a few layers earlier. This makes it impossible to swap 'goblin' and 'zombie' on Dralnu's Crusade. (changing goblin to plant and then zombie to goblin gives a crusade that turns plants into plants, as the first effect is dependent on the second, and therefore applies after.)
Relevant Comp rules:
613.8. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
613.8b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
613.8c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.
This means we can't use the 'vanilla' crusade to complete a cycle but vanilla is the only way we can return it with second sunrise.
(then there is still the problem of emulating a new arcbond with a second sunrise, which is probably possible but requires like 3-6 cards)
Edit: and yeah snow mana was kind of a bust (AGAIN) It doesn't seem likely that we'll be able to get another stage in there.
Hmm, I'm not sure that there is a dependency between different AEs, going by the following example from this article on layers and dependencies:
Example: Laurens, always trying to top everyone else, casts Grayscaled Gharial on MTGO, then Mind Bends it, but misclicks and changes "Swamp" to "Forest." Trying to be clever, he casts a second Mind Bend changing "Island" to "Swamp." MTGO says that his Gharial has swampwalk now, and not forestwalk, so he writes a ten-page dissertation on why MTGO sucks and how it never handles the rules correctly because these two effects are dependent on each other, and goes on to tell judges all over the world that these effects are dependent because that's how it works on MTGO. But he's wrong. Remember that changing how much work an effect performs does not change what it does, so there is no dependency here. The first Mind Bend's effect is applied and does nothing, then the second's is applied.
The argument is that neither effect from A:"change goblin to plant" and B:"change zombie to goblin" affect the text of the other effect (they change the text of something else) nor what it does (A still always changes goblins to plants, and applying B first doesn't change that, it just happens to cause there to be more instances of goblin on the card to change); so there's no dependency.
Hmm, but wouldn't that argument apply to the Dralnu's Crusade / Conspiracy example as well? Dralnu's Crusade applying first would still turn Goblins into Zombies, applying Conspiracy first would just cause there to be more Goblins.
Changing *which* objects an effect applies to (i.e. which permanents are goblins in this case) *is* one of the conditions for a dependency.
The rule is a bit confusing and possibly ambiguous so we should check with some judges.
Well I was trying to be too fancy as we don't even really need a cycle to do what I was thinking because we have drake familiars we can sac or not, which gives us enough control anyway.
We activate Avacyn preventing black damage to us this turn, then put pariah on k'rrik. Then each computation we give them the deathspitter, (now we'd also need to do that with a second sunrise...)
Edit2: Wait this whole line with second sunrise I'm trying to make is just worse than what we had right? Getting a layer's worth above worldfire is not as good as getting it below.
Yeah, a layer above the hyperstage isn't really worth anything. I was still interested to see how this developed, since it could possibly free up something that we could use to our advantage. Although admittedly, seeming to lose card draw is a rough start.
So I guess that just leaves trying to convert it into a stage somehow.
Unfortunately there aren't really a lot of options for that, as many of the key cards for previous stages are completely unsafe for computation.
And those that aren't seem either useless or incompatible with other extensions.
Cowardice: too many bounces, probably safe for computation. Mimic vat: not computationally safe. psychic battle: does nothing
...
Snf er are also pretty much out of triggers that cast spells, the only remotely nicely behaved one is Spell Queller, which is not safe for computation, and can be very restrictive on the other slots.
Ooh, getting lands back would be very nice! Unfortunately, having Teferi, Temporal Archmage be able to both fetch cards from the library and untap permanents is somewhat costly - but if we can get another stage out of it, we should be ahead no matter what.
Another thought is replacing Retract somehow, currently it's main use in the working deck is refreshing Soul separator to make copies of drake familiar and a Desolation Giant to kick off the computation. Also, it works to help rebuild those after worldfire. And is an instant that does not interfere with the first computation if we cast it from hand the one time we can.
Pretty much every instant speed bounce spell is not save for the first computation. As far as I can tell the only other 'safe' bounce spell would have to be based on power/toughness as those get very large during computation. There's just one that fits those criteria: Engulf the shore, but only bounces the drake (with one island), and expanding up to exactly three islands is tricky and allows us to bounce Guardian of the Guildpact too early.
Other promising types of instants like flicker, reanimation, second sunrise or copying effects either don't work after worldfire, break the computation, or both.
The Scarab god is the only other card like Soul Separator that can be activated at instant speed and requires both black and blue...
I imagine Orvar, the All form goes super duper infinite with basically everything reasonable to include in the deck but if it somehow didn't then it would be a way to make soul separators with our instants
(side note: that card looks like it will be really useful for the standard version)
Hmm, it doesn't look like Orvar, the All-Form goes super duper infinite in any obvious way. But, can it replace Soul Separator? I suppose the idea is to put triggers of Orvar on the stack for all the creatures that we need to have copies of, before we go into a hyperstage transition. But, our instants only target one creature at a time, so we would need to interrupt with Lingering Souls a couple of times to get all the triggers we need, which seems too expensive. Perhaps if we added an instant that could target multiple creatures. Hmm, but does this profit us at all?
Yeah Orvar is one I have earmarked for standard, its unfortunately legendary so we'd need a new Spark double to really start to go off. While I initially dismissed it as we were using Spitting Image when it was previewed, but that does seem to help to replace retract + soul seperator with it and a multitarget instant (Energy arc is the only safe one with arbitrary targets)
This would also force us to cut Dack Fayden as we'd no longer lose flash in between computations, and couldn't be allowed to steal stuff during the first computation, it looks like we'd be at least a card ahead if it worked.
Actually, not drake familiar as we need to remove opalescence/march of the machines pretty regularly.
Things do get a bit tricky with the line, because we can't normally easily get triggers for everything and the giant as well at the same time. Though actually, we'll conveniently still have our Desolation Giant after every computation so its not too hard to have everything we want to copy in play at once, and then we can resolve the triggers in the order we want.
The first computation would be a bit tricky, but certainly possible.
I guess another problem is that we'd need to actually convert mana/storm into computations? We only get triggers for each Spellweaver Vollute and Thousand-year storm doesn't help make copies of those...
Adding a Spitting Image type card would work, is this compatible with that package?
EDIT: GAH! I forgot the most important thing retract does!
It gives us discard fodder so we can gain exactly 2(or 4) life! Can we use maybe Enchantment creatures or something instead?
Edit2: well I guess we can keep retract for that, and still cut dack, soul separator and dual nature for Orvar, the All-Form and Energy arc and still be a card slot ahead?
Hmm, that seems like it could work! So that would save us a card - except, we were using Dual Nature to make many copies of Black Lotus very efficiently - just adding Drafna's Restoration and the useful Doubling Season allows us two layers of green mana per card draw. Can we get that in some other way?
Actually, can we replace Drake Familiar with Stern Proctor? That would allow us to drop [c}Retract[/c] I think. So we could save a card slot even if we keep Dual Nature.
Hmm, Orvar can copy lands with Artificial Evolution. Could maybe be worked around if we can use enters-tapped lands + a way to have the nontoken lands enter untapped.
[Standard note: Mutate is a way to make Orvar nonlegendary to copy it, except that it's a human. However Kargan Intimidator can change that]
Oh right. I've often wanted ways for certain permanents to enter untapped, but I haven't found anything better than Amulet of Vigor, which unfortunately triggers a lot of untaps if we can have multiple copies of Amulet of Vigor.
Hmm, I think stern proctor had an issue with being targeted?
I kind of lost track of the stage in the shuffle so let's recheck:
We cast Aegis automation, getting a bunch of bloodbond march triggers, use one to put it into play.
Then we spend 2 life to cast lingering souls, triggering our spellweaver volutes, letting us bounce Aegis automation.
Important! The first volute trigger must let us bounce/destroy all of the other volutes or they don't work, fortunately we can have the first one just make a copy of drake familiar/stern proctor which becomes enough thanks to doubling season/Panharmonicon
Then we can discard it to gain that 2 life back, but then its stuck in the yard until we are done with spellweaver volute.
Each set of volute triggers on our instants gives us a computation via Orvar, the All-Form.
This seems like it is working, but the one issue I have with this is that storm doesn't convert to more volutes until we go all the way down to gaining life with gravitic punch, don't we need a cackling counterpart/second harvest type card? so we can use the output of the computation immediately so the next cast of lingering souls picks up all of the progress made by the previous one.
I believe we can get storm conversion earlier. Casting Lingering Souls lets us cast Bolt Bend, which can retarget Energy Arcs onto the appropriate Stern Proctor. I don't see how to use this to retarget all the Energy Arcs in the top Energy Arc layer, but for all the Energy Arcs from the second layer on down, we can use Bolt Bends cast in the top layer to retarget them onto the right Stern Proctors. So that should be fine I think.
But, as jfb points out, Orvar, the All-Form + Artificial Evolution allows us to copy our Mountain very cheaply, which is no good. I would be nice if we could fix things so that only the land we bring back from the graveyard can be tapped, and all copies cannot be. One idea is as jfb suggests, to have token lands come in naturally tapped, but to have nontoken lands come in untapped. Another idea is to have whatever brings back the land untap it when it does. The only card I can think of is Animist's Awakening. So, if after a Worldfire we moved the land from exile into the library, and then put it back onto the battlefield with Animist's Awakening, it could work I suppose. But, that moots the Animist's Awakening part of the ending layers, so we will be behind compared to the previous best deck.
Orvar, the all-form only triggers on spells being cast so bolt-bending energy arcs does nothing.
As for the issue with the mountain, Blackcleave cliffs seems close, but we can still get one extra red out of a token. Can we force us to spend RR instead of just R? Firecat Blitz if haste is ok or Earth Rift, though that also kills the land... Or force us to have another land in play?
For example activating a mutavault with humility in play will still make a 2/2, as mutavault overwrites humility's p/t effect.
But if the effect of the layer are dependent on one another then they are automagically applied in the 'correct' order (bigger effects).
So Dralnu's crusades set on B->C and A->B will make all As ABCs, regardless of timestamp order.
But if there's a dependency loop, like another crusade on C->A, then that forms a loop and it goes back to timestamps. (assuming there are creatures of the relevant types in play)
So playing the three in that order would turn As into ABs, Cs into CAs and Bs into ABCs. Notably the As are not Cs anymore when the cycle is completed.
So its not difficult to imagine them in a nearly complete cycle and behaving as we'd want for computation, then suddenly behaving differently when we completed the loop.
This can (ALMOST) be used to replace Artificial Evolution between computations after setup, as we would have enough control to setup the exact size of the next program and ensure its one that doesn't halt quickly.
However the same rule also applies to Artifical Evolution itself as it applies a very similar text changing effect a few layers earlier. This makes it impossible to swap 'goblin' and 'zombie' on Dralnu's Crusade. (changing goblin to plant and then zombie to goblin gives a crusade that turns plants into plants, as the first effect is dependent on the second, and therefore applies after.)
Relevant Comp rules:
This means we can't use the 'vanilla' crusade to complete a cycle but vanilla is the only way we can return it with second sunrise.
(then there is still the problem of emulating a new arcbond with a second sunrise, which is probably possible but requires like 3-6 cards)
Edit: and yeah snow mana was kind of a bust (AGAIN) It doesn't seem likely that we'll be able to get another stage in there.
I have to say I don't follow that argument, with regard to the example.
The rule is a bit confusing and possibly ambiguous so we should check with some judges.
Emulating arcbond is more tricky. But I think there's a way to do it with pariah Avacyn, Guardian Angel and Frilled deathspitter
We activate Avacyn preventing black damage to us this turn, then put pariah on k'rrik. Then each computation we give them the deathspitter, (now we'd also need to do that with a second sunrise...)
edit: Protective Sphere > avacyn to keep white creatures out.
Edit2: Wait this whole line with second sunrise I'm trying to make is just worse than what we had right? Getting a layer's worth above worldfire is not as good as getting it below.
Unfortunately there aren't really a lot of options for that, as many of the key cards for previous stages are completely unsafe for computation.
And those that aren't seem either useless or incompatible with other extensions.
Cowardice: too many bounces, probably safe for computation.
Mimic vat: not computationally safe.
psychic battle: does nothing
...
Snf er are also pretty much out of triggers that cast spells, the only remotely nicely behaved one is Spell Queller, which is not safe for computation, and can be very restrictive on the other slots.
Still trying to think about different stage resources or different kinds of stages...
Domri, chaos bringer + Teferi emblem ? with maybe Triumphant reckoning to rebuild after worldfire.
Pretty much every instant speed bounce spell is not save for the first computation. As far as I can tell the only other 'safe' bounce spell would have to be based on power/toughness as those get very large during computation. There's just one that fits those criteria: Engulf the shore, but only bounces the drake (with one island), and expanding up to exactly three islands is tricky and allows us to bounce Guardian of the Guildpact too early.
Other promising types of instants like flicker, reanimation, second sunrise or copying effects either don't work after worldfire, break the computation, or both.
The Scarab god is the only other card like Soul Separator that can be activated at instant speed and requires both black and blue...
(side note: that card looks like it will be really useful for the standard version)
This would also force us to cut Dack Fayden as we'd no longer lose flash in between computations, and couldn't be allowed to steal stuff during the first computation, it looks like we'd be at least a card ahead if it worked.
Hmm, this maybe even allows Dual Nature and/or Drake familiar to be cut as well?
Actually, not drake familiar as we need to remove opalescence/march of the machines pretty regularly.
Things do get a bit tricky with the line, because we can't normally easily get triggers for everything and the giant as well at the same time. Though actually, we'll conveniently still have our Desolation Giant after every computation so its not too hard to have everything we want to copy in play at once, and then we can resolve the triggers in the order we want.
The first computation would be a bit tricky, but certainly possible.
I guess another problem is that we'd need to actually convert mana/storm into computations? We only get triggers for each Spellweaver Vollute and Thousand-year storm doesn't help make copies of those...
Adding a Spitting Image type card would work, is this compatible with that package?
EDIT: GAH! I forgot the most important thing retract does!
It gives us discard fodder so we can gain exactly 2(or 4) life! Can we use maybe Enchantment creatures or something instead?
Edit2: well I guess we can keep retract for that, and still cut dack, soul separator and dual nature for Orvar, the All-Form and Energy arc and still be a card slot ahead?
Actually, can we replace Drake Familiar with Stern Proctor? That would allow us to drop [c}Retract[/c] I think. So we could save a card slot even if we keep Dual Nature.
So, we're looking at:
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Wrong Turn
6 Dralnu's Crusade
7 Opalescence
8 Desolation Giant
9 Goblin Boom Keg
10 March of the Machines
11 Vedalken Orrery
12 Orvar, the All-Form
13 Spellweaver Volute
14 Pull from Eternity
15 Mirrormade
16 Dual Nature
17 Bloodbond March
18 Cephalid Shrine
19 Thousand-Year Storm
20 Invulnerability
21 Mana Echoes
23 Thousand-Year Elixir
24 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth
25 Lingering Souls
26 Stern Proctor
27 Energy Arc
28 Runed Halo
29 Spellweaver Helix
30 Worldfire
31 Gravitic Punch
32 Gravitic Punch
33 Recoup
34 Mountain
35 Restore
36 Panharmonicon
37 Wormfang Behemoth
38 Distorting Wake
39 Chrome Mox
40 Aegis Automaton
41 Guardian of the Guildpact
42 Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient
43 Bolt Bend
44 Alhammarret's Archive
46 Show and Tell
47 Omniscience
48 Sphinx of Enlightenment
49 Break Through the Line
50 Fountain of Cho
51 Amulet of Vigor
52 Animist's Awakening
53 Consecrated Sphinx
54 Widespread Panic
55 Shimian Specter
56 Moraug, Fury of Akoum
57 World at War
58 Doubling Season
59 Uproot
60 Drafna's Restoration
hopefully getting 9 layers.
[Standard note: Mutate is a way to make Orvar nonlegendary to copy it, except that it's a human. However Kargan Intimidator can change that]
A simple swap to Darksteel forge allows us to keep coat of arms alive regardless and we can then keep Mana echoes and stay alive with repeated casts of invulnerability on their K'rrik.
Hmm, I think stern proctor had an issue with being targeted?
I kind of lost track of the stage in the shuffle so let's recheck:
We cast Aegis automation, getting a bunch of bloodbond march triggers, use one to put it into play.
Then we spend 2 life to cast lingering souls, triggering our spellweaver volutes, letting us bounce Aegis automation.
Important! The first volute trigger must let us bounce/destroy all of the other volutes or they don't work, fortunately we can have the first one just make a copy of drake familiar/stern proctor which becomes enough thanks to doubling season/Panharmonicon
Then we can discard it to gain that 2 life back, but then its stuck in the yard until we are done with spellweaver volute.
Each set of volute triggers on our instants gives us a computation via Orvar, the All-Form.
This seems like it is working, but the one issue I have with this is that storm doesn't convert to more volutes until we go all the way down to gaining life with gravitic punch, don't we need a cackling counterpart/second harvest type card? so we can use the output of the computation immediately so the next cast of lingering souls picks up all of the progress made by the previous one.
But, as jfb points out, Orvar, the All-Form + Artificial Evolution allows us to copy our Mountain very cheaply, which is no good. I would be nice if we could fix things so that only the land we bring back from the graveyard can be tapped, and all copies cannot be. One idea is as jfb suggests, to have token lands come in naturally tapped, but to have nontoken lands come in untapped. Another idea is to have whatever brings back the land untap it when it does. The only card I can think of is Animist's Awakening. So, if after a Worldfire we moved the land from exile into the library, and then put it back onto the battlefield with Animist's Awakening, it could work I suppose. But, that moots the Animist's Awakening part of the ending layers, so we will be behind compared to the previous best deck.
As for the issue with the mountain, Blackcleave cliffs seems close, but we can still get one extra red out of a token. Can we force us to spend RR instead of just R? Firecat Blitz if haste is ok or Earth Rift, though that also kills the land... Or force us to have another land in play?