Hmm, I don't see a way to get a stage from those creatures. Maybe it could be some life gaining effect for when a green or white creature enters the battlefield, but I didn't find anything like that.
Making the changes, and adding in the start and the ending layers:
Yeah, the main problem is that worldpurge is able to bounce anything and end up generating whatever resource would be generated by a higher stage, which would end up generating life.
Does Talon of Pain work? It seems like you can repeatedly use one talon to charge up others.
Actually it can deal damage to creatures thus starting computations so it definitely doesn't work.
Right, I was thinking in terms of affecting creatures during computation, but starting one is also bad.
Any ideas for how we can implement a life stage? The problem with Confessor or Peace of Mind is that we can discard anything to those, so we can't be able to retrieve enchantments and/or artifacts from the graveyard. But, if we can bounce enchantments/artifacts, we have the problem of being able to Mirrorweave / Cytoshape creatures into enchantments/artifacts to bounce them.
So perhaps we want a creature-specific life gain option like Ghost-Lit Redeemer. But, then we can't use Flbthp, so we want a spell/ability that actually bounces GLR at the cost of 4 life. I don't know anything like that.
Edit: Is there some way we can make the hyperstage work without Chrome Mox? It seems like getting rid of Chrome Mox could be quite helpful for the ending layers, we could use creatures such as Tamanoa, Hana Kami, etc.
I wrote out like 5 lines for 'infinites' in those decks that didn't actually work: Invulnerability doesn't target Seismic Spike killing the gainlands leaves them inaccessable Worldpurge is not worldfire Sentry Oak is not an ETB trigger
...
Hmm, that looks right. We want to be able to get access to enough cards to get started, but not be able to redraw the Lotus Petal and go infinite. Anyone have any ideas on how to do that?
well something that draws too many cards might be ok? we can only really put so many cards back.
Or maybe we go back to being limited to their library via the sphinxes Consecrated Sphinx+ Sphinx of Enlightenment?
Hmm, we don't even need consecrated sphinx if the deckslot is better as something else. Words of Wisdom is definitely enough on it's own and probably just Sphinx of enlightenment is sufficient as well
I don't see how it would be, unless we Lotus Petal is also a problem. We have to sacrifice it to use it, or we can put it into play with Dual Nature and March of the Machines, and it will die. (but trigger the creation of a lot of copies)
Then, i think black lotus was the last banned card and we can even make this legacy legal with a second lotus petal?
edit: no we cant get the Simian spirit guide back to our hand after exiling it to make show and tell mana with the line I had. We would need a third petal, which is starting to cost us deck slots.
edit2:
Ok, lets get the stack checked out and verify our operations work.
We have:
BB setup:
1: Use 3 colorless mana to buyback invulnerability to increase our storm count X.
2: Spend R to cast any of our instants (via satyr's cunning)
2a: Setup a computation with artificial evolution/mirrorweave/arcbond/dowsing dagger
2b: Bounce artifacts/enchantments/creatures with cowardice and artificial evolution
2b+: Get X copies of artifacts/enchantments/creatures with dual nature - Trigger to regain flash is here
2c: Pull from eternity anything exiled into our graveyard
3: Trigger a computation with Desolation Giant and an animated goblin boom keg losing flash
3a-...: Turing machine/Waterfall model rules, we have no decisions here.
3zzz: Reap an output of BB(X) colorless mana.
Simian spirit guide R stage:
4:cast SSG from hand for BBM triggers
5:resolve a BBM trigger to move it from the graveyard to play
6:use a red and 2b to return it to hand
7:exile it for a red mana
8:use a red and 2c to pull from eternity it back to the graveyard
This all seems to work well so far, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the next part:
9: spend 3 life to cast flash of defiance triggering spellweaver helix casts of Seismic Spike and worldpurge.
9a: Seismic Spike repeatedly destroys Drownyard Temple converting 3 into RR
9b: Worldpurge bounces all of our permanents and clears our mana pool
10: regain 3 life with the gainlands? how are we putting them in play now? Boon reflection messes this up right?
Ah right, we can't have Boon Reflection. So that loses two layers at the end.
Hmm, I guess since we have lands we want to recycle in the ending layers, it's better to use Gerrard's Verdict and just use Drownyard Temple in the hyperstage.
Also, how do we rebuild properly from Worldpurge? I can see that one early payment of 7UUU lets us always have an omniscience token waiting for us along with the Vedalken Orrery. But, we can only have 7 cards in hand after worldpurge and need a lot more than that to get set up again. Do we need something like wormfang behemoth?
One trouble I noticed when trying to make an ending myself, (they are difficult) is that mana is very tricky because of the worldpurges.
Optimally we would immediately rebuild the entire stack every time we resolved down to a layer's trigger. But some of these triggers would be disrupted by the worldpurge required to do the whole combo. so instead we occasionally need to run the combo without worldpurge to save the mana / targets / objects.
Is this a problem?
For example Gaea's Cradle + amulet of vigor makes a bunch of green and a bunch of untap triggers, but we can't worldpurge without losing that progress. (either the mana in the pool or the cradle to untap)
And we can't save enough red to run a BB combo for all of the green that that makes, as we run out by the second amulet trigger. So even though it looks like 2 layers, I think we only get one.
Hmm, could be a slight issue.
A possible way to protect permanents from the Worldpurge could be to use Phasing; we'd enchant stuff with a bunch of Cloak of Invisibility or Teferi's Curse, and use Time and Tide to phase them out and back in later.
The main issue that came up last time phasing was discussed is that it can intefere with computations by casting TaT from hand, but a possible solution is to use Kaervek's Spite to sac trigger computations. This would get rid of the phasing auras so casting TaT can't do anything during a computation (unless things were already phased out, in which case TaT must have already been cast and thus will be in the graveyard).
Edit: Also is it only a problem if there are two of these 'disrupted' layers next to each other? We can save a ton of red, and get one BB iteration per mana/untap trigger/etc in the layer. Idk if that's enough to be fully powered? Maybe if the layer also produces red?
Edit2: there aren't many mana abilities that stick on the stack like deathrite shaman, and most of them obviously don't work at all but Witch Engine seems promising
Making the changes, and adding in the start and the ending layers:
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Mirrorweave
6 Dowsing Dagger
7 Dralnu's Crusade
8 Starfield of Nyx
9 Desolation Giant
10 March of the Machines
11 Goblin Boom Keg
12 Vedalken Orrery
13 Spellweaver Volute
14 Pull from Eternity
15 Cowardice
16 Mirrorworks
18 Cephalid Shrine
19 Thousand-Year Storm
20 Invulnerability
21 Satyr's Cunning
22 Mana Echoes
23 Stern Proctor
24 Chrome Mox
25 Spellweaver Helix
26 Seismic Spike
27 Worldpurge
28 Flash of Defiance
29 Flash of Defiance
30 Flash of Defiance
31 Drownyard Temple
32 Radiant Fountain
33 Glimmerpost
35 Show and Tell
36 Omniscience
37 Primal Surge
38 Angelheart Vial
39 Talon of Pain
40 Beacon of Immortality
41 Temple Bell
42 Consecrated Sphinx
43 Dragon Appeasement
44 Pitchstone Wall
45 Curse of Chaos
46 Finest Hour
47 World at War
Beacon of Immortality doesn't work because it can be countered and then cast off of volute; alternatives are Sanguine Sacrement + white mana generation or Approach of the second sun + Abyssal Persecutor.
Does Talon of Pain work? It seems like you can repeatedly use one talon to charge up others.
Actually it can deal damage to creatures thus starting computations so it definitely doesn't work.
Any ideas for how we can implement a life stage? The problem with Confessor or Peace of Mind is that we can discard anything to those, so we can't be able to retrieve enchantments and/or artifacts from the graveyard. But, if we can bounce enchantments/artifacts, we have the problem of being able to Mirrorweave / Cytoshape creatures into enchantments/artifacts to bounce them.
So perhaps we want a creature-specific life gain option like Ghost-Lit Redeemer. But, then we can't use Flbthp, so we want a spell/ability that actually bounces GLR at the cost of 4 life. I don't know anything like that.
Edit: Redid the final layers a little bit:
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Mirrorweave
6 Dowsing Dagger
7 Dralnu's Crusade
8 Starfield of Nyx
9 Desolation Giant
10 March of the Machines
11 Goblin Boom Keg
12 Vedalken Orrery
13 Spellweaver Volute
14 Pull from Eternity
15 Cowardice
16 Dual Nature
17 Bloodbond March
18 Cephalid Shrine
19 Thousand-Year Storm
20 Invulnerability
21 Satyr's Cunning
22 Mana Echoes
24 Chrome Mox
25 Spellweaver Helix
26 Seismic Spike
27 Worldpurge
28 Flash of Defiance
29 Flash of Defiance
30 Flash of Defiance
31 Drownyard Temple
32 Radiant Fountain
33 Glimmerpost
34 Black Lotus
35 Show and Tell
36 Omniscience
37 Primal Surge
38 Angelheart Vial
39 Rings of Brighthearth
40 Howling Gale
41 Sanguine Sacrament
42 Serra Avatar
44 Pitchstone Wall
45 Desolate Lighthouse
46 Svyelunite Temple
47 Reality Spasm
48 Reality Spasm
49 Reality Spasm
50 Reality Spasm
51 Precursor Golem
52 Grip of Chaos
53 Druids' Repository
54 Break Through the Line
55 Doubling Season
56 Finest Hour
57 World at War
58 Lotus Petal
Edit: Slightly better ending sequence.
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Mirrorweave
6 Dowsing Dagger
7 Dralnu's Crusade
8 Starfield of Nyx
9 Desolation Giant
10 March of the Machines
11 Goblin Boom Keg
12 Vedalken Orrery
13 Spellweaver Volute
14 Pull from Eternity
15 Cowardice
16 Dual Nature
17 Bloodbond March
18 Cephalid Shrine
19 Thousand-Year Storm
20 Invulnerability
21 Satyr's Cunning
22 Mana Echoes
24 Chrome Mox
25 Spellweaver Helix
26 Seismic Spike
27 Worldpurge
28 Flash of Defiance
29 Flash of Defiance
30 Flash of Defiance
31 Drownyard Temple
32 Radiant Fountain
33 Glimmerpost
34 Black Lotus
35 Show and Tell
36 Omniscience
37 Primal Surge
38 Angelheart Vial
39 Rings of Brighthearth
40 Howling Gale
42 Plains
43 Caged Sun
44 Amulet of Vigor
45 Font of Fertility
46 Lat-Num's Legacy
47 Lotus Petal
48 Mortuary
49 Sylvan Echoes
50 Sentry Oak
51 Finest Hour
52 World at War
If there's a non-sacrificing version of Font of Fertility, we could perhaps go back to the Dragon Appeasement sequence. Or, maybe we could just get rid of Starfield of Nyx.
Edit: Is there some way we can make the hyperstage work without Chrome Mox? It seems like getting rid of Chrome Mox could be quite helpful for the ending layers, we could use creatures such as Tamanoa, Hana Kami, etc.
Edit: Hmm, is it as simple as replacing Chrome Mox with Simian Spirit Guide?
Is there a reason for both Show and tell and Primal surge? Seems like PS makes SaT redundant.
Invulnerability doesn't target
Seismic Spike killing the gainlands leaves them inaccessable
Worldpurge is not worldfire
Sentry Oak is not an ETB trigger
...
Though I think I did poke a hole:
It looks like putting Primal Surge instead of Seismic Spike on the Spellweaver Helix to hit Lotus petal is a problem?
Or maybe we go back to being limited to their library via the sphinxes Consecrated Sphinx+ Sphinx of Enlightenment?
Other options:
Caress of phyrexia we only get 3 copies of whichis probably not enoguh.
Dream Salvage/floating-dream zubera is probably too slow.
Drastic revelation/forced fruition/Memory Jar /other draw 7s is probably not enough cards?
Swift Silence is interesting, but we aren't forced to have TYS in play, and can counter some other spell.
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Mirrorweave
6 Dowsing Dagger
7 Dralnu's Crusade
8 Starfield of Nyx
9 Desolation Giant
10 March of the Machines
11 Goblin Boom Keg
12 Vedalken Orrery
13 Spellweaver Volute
14 Pull from Eternity
15 Cowardice
16 Dual Nature
17 Bloodbond March
18 Cephalid Shrine
19 Thousand-Year Storm
20 Invulnerability
21 Satyr's Cunning
22 Mana Echoes
24 Simian Spirit Guide
25 Spellweaver Helix
26 Seismic Spike
27 Worldpurge
28 Flash of Defiance
29 Flash of Defiance
30 Flash of Defiance
31 Drownyard Temple
32 Radiant Fountain
33 Glimmerpost
34 Black Lotus
35 Show and Tell
36 Omniscience
37 Words of Wisdom
38 Angelheart Vial
39 Rings of Brighthearth
40 Howling Gale
41 Boon Reflection
43 Plains
44 Caged Sun
45 Amulet of Vigor
46 Firebrand Ranger
47 Marchesa's Smuggler
48 Eye of Ramos
49 Gaea's Cradle
50 Helldozer
51 Lotus Petal
52 Mortuary
53 Dragon Appeasement
54 Pitchstone Wall
55 Curse of Chaos
56 Finest Hour
57 World at War
plains, simian spirit guide, lotus petal, show and tell, omniscience, TYS, Words of Wisdom.
Is that even a problem though?
edit: no we cant get the Simian spirit guide back to our hand after exiling it to make show and tell mana with the line I had. We would need a third petal, which is starting to cost us deck slots.
edit2:
Ok, lets get the stack checked out and verify our operations work.
We have:
BB setup:
1: Use 3 colorless mana to buyback invulnerability to increase our storm count X.
2: Spend R to cast any of our instants (via satyr's cunning)
2a: Setup a computation with artificial evolution/mirrorweave/arcbond/dowsing dagger
2b: Bounce artifacts/enchantments/creatures with cowardice and artificial evolution
2b+: Get X copies of artifacts/enchantments/creatures with dual nature - Trigger to regain flash is here
2c: Pull from eternity anything exiled into our graveyard
3: Trigger a computation with Desolation Giant and an animated goblin boom keg losing flash
3a-...: Turing machine/Waterfall model rules, we have no decisions here.
3zzz: Reap an output of BB(X) colorless mana.
Simian spirit guide R stage:
4:cast SSG from hand for BBM triggers
5:resolve a BBM trigger to move it from the graveyard to play
6:use a red and 2b to return it to hand
7:exile it for a red mana
8:use a red and 2c to pull from eternity it back to the graveyard
This all seems to work well so far, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the next part:
9: spend 3 life to cast flash of defiance triggering spellweaver helix casts of Seismic Spike and worldpurge.
9a: Seismic Spike repeatedly destroys Drownyard Temple converting 3 into RR
9b: Worldpurge bounces all of our permanents and clears our mana pool
10: regain 3 life with the gainlands? how are we putting them in play now? Boon reflection messes this up right?
Hmm, I guess since we have lands we want to recycle in the ending layers, it's better to use Gerrard's Verdict and just use Drownyard Temple in the hyperstage.
Seismic Spikes for lots of R
Worldpurge to get a land in hand and zero our mana pool
Gerrard's Verdict to gain the 3 back.
That transition looks good.
Edit: ok so ignoring the end for now, the way I see it is that the stack will spend most of the time looking like this:
TWM Busy beaver triggers
Dual Nature setup/rebuild triggers
SSG bloodbond march triggers (R 2 life)
SSG bounce triggers
SSG bloodbond march triggers(RR 2 life)
SSG bounce triggers
...
SSG bloodbond march triggers(RXR 2 life)
SSG bounce triggers
Spellweaver Helix Siesmic Spike
Spellweaver Helix Worldpurge
Spellweaver Helix Gerrard's verdict
Dual Nature setup/rebuild triggers
SSG bloodbond march triggers (R 5 life)
SSG bounce triggers
SSG bloodbond march triggers(RR 5 life)
SSG bounce triggers
...
SSG bloodbond march triggers(RXR 5 life)
SSG bounce triggers
Spellweaver Helix Siesmic Spike
Spellweaver Helix Worldpurge
Spellweaver Helix Gerrard's verdict
Dual Nature setup/rebuild triggers
.
.
.
SSG bloodbond march triggers(RXR 20 life)
And then the ending is 'just' layers that end up with us gaining a bunch of life.
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Arcbond
4 Artificial Evolution
5 Mirrorweave
6 Dowsing Dagger
7 Dralnu's Crusade
8 Starfield of Nyx
9 Desolation Giant
10 March of the Machines
11 Goblin Boom Keg
12 Vedalken Orrery
14 Pull from Eternity
15 Cowardice
16 Dual Nature
17 Bloodbond March
18 Cephalid Shrine
19 Thousand-Year Storm
20 Invulnerability
21 Satyr's Cunning
22 Mana Echoes
23 Stern Proctor
24 Simian Spirit Guide
26 Seismic Spike
27 Worldpurge
28 Gerrard's Verdict
29 Flash of Defiance
30 Flash of Defiance
31 Flash of Defiance
32 Flash of Defiance
33 Drownyard Temple
34 Wormfang Behemoth
35 Black Lotus
36 Show and Tell
37 Omniscience
38 Words of Wisdom
Edit: think we still need Chameleon Blur to prevent death and Leyline of punishment to actually kill them.
Optimally we would immediately rebuild the entire stack every time we resolved down to a layer's trigger. But some of these triggers would be disrupted by the worldpurge required to do the whole combo. so instead we occasionally need to run the combo without worldpurge to save the mana / targets / objects.
Is this a problem?
For example Gaea's Cradle + amulet of vigor makes a bunch of green and a bunch of untap triggers, but we can't worldpurge without losing that progress. (either the mana in the pool or the cradle to untap)
And we can't save enough red to run a BB combo for all of the green that that makes, as we run out by the second amulet trigger. So even though it looks like 2 layers, I think we only get one.
A possible way to protect permanents from the Worldpurge could be to use Phasing; we'd enchant stuff with a bunch of Cloak of Invisibility or Teferi's Curse, and use Time and Tide to phase them out and back in later.
The main issue that came up last time phasing was discussed is that it can intefere with computations by casting TaT from hand, but a possible solution is to use Kaervek's Spite to sac trigger computations. This would get rid of the phasing auras so casting TaT can't do anything during a computation (unless things were already phased out, in which case TaT must have already been cast and thus will be in the graveyard).
Better would be mana abilities that aren't really "mana abilities" like Deathrite shaman's, that way we can protect/hide them on the stack.
Layers relying on bloodbond march triggers, Rings of brighthearth triggers, draw triggers, etc should still work fine for the ending.
Edit: Also is it only a problem if there are two of these 'disrupted' layers next to each other? We can save a ton of red, and get one BB iteration per mana/untap trigger/etc in the layer. Idk if that's enough to be fully powered? Maybe if the layer also produces red?
Edit2: there aren't many mana abilities that stick on the stack like deathrite shaman, and most of them obviously don't work at all but Witch Engine seems promising