Yes, it looks like eight stages is the lead. The Chalice of the Void deck had eight stages, but it looks like we currently need to add at least 4 cards to restore progress, so that would take it down to six stages.
But, there may be many changes that need to be made, in all the decks.
Well the working Razorfin Abolisher deck had what 6 or 7 stages too? This godtoucher deck is using the same tech for the higher order transitions which I am pretty confident we have working. (No Wormfang looks like it works).
My main concern is if we missed some infinite from adding the Muzzio/goryo's vengeance line from the chalice versions.
Edit: Oh, I think that Mirrormade is actually okay without Mirrorworks. Yes, we can imprint Mirrormade with a Mimic Vat to get a token copy of Rust Tick. But that puts Mirrormade in the exile zone. To get it out, we would have to sacrifice the actual Mirror of Fate. And then to get Mirror of Fate back, we would have to tap a Muzzio, Visionary Architect. So we can get a Rust Tick token at the cost of using a Muzzio, but that is allowed.
Hmm I wonder if we could use the new Emry, lurker of the loch instead of Muzzio? Should make returning the mirror easier, so some of the fiddly bits can be smoother at least. But being able to delay casting might be troublesome though and getting counters on EE too cheap is also a problem... Maybe Sharuum the hegemon?
(Sharuum returning itself infinitely via legend rule+Psychic Battle doesn't look like it actually goes infinite with anything)
Yeah, Emry allowing Engineered Explosives to be cast from the graveyard seems to eliminate it.
Sharuum the Hegemon goes infinite with Rust Tick, or whatever we're using as an artifact stage creature: We can tap a Rust Tick token to create a lot of Psychic Battle triggers, then repeatedly destroy the nontoken Rust Tick, creating a Rust Tick token, and bouncing Sharuum, allowing us to return Rust Tick to the battlefield.
Arcum Dagsson is another possible replacement for Muzzio. The main problem seems to be the same as Muzzio's: We can bring one hasted copy down below a hyperstage transition, and use it to get another Rust Tick token. So, like Muzzio, we need to be forced to use the hasted copy on something else, like retrieving Chalice of the Void or Vedalken Orrery.
But how are we destroying the rust tick without Horobi? We can only bounce the Rust Ticks with each other, but it still goes infinite.
Once we bounce it we imprint it on soul foundry, make a token, and tap it to get PB triggers and use one to bounce sharuum, sharuum back mirror of fate, mirror of fate back the original tick and anything else we need. Mill the rust tick, use the next pb trigger to bounce sharrum again, sharrum back the rust tick. Two more pb triggers gives us the soul foundry back and the rust tick in hand and we can start this all over again.
It looks like there is a problem in the Soul Foundry deck: When we use an Engineered Explosives to kill Wirewood Herald, we can also kill off Metallurgeon, to gain a hasted token. This will also kill all the Metallurgeon tokens, so we would have to tap all of our Metallurgeon tokens beforehand. But, I don't see anything stopping us from tapping all of the Metallurgeon tokens, bouncing the original Metallurgeon, and replaying it to get Bloodbond March triggers. At that point, we can use Engineered Explosives to destroy both Wirewood Herald and Metallurgeon, getting token copies of both. Then we can use a Bloodbond March trigger to return the original Metallurgeon, and we're one token ahead. We can now use Godtoucher to enter the hyperstage transition, and get the Engineered Explosives back.
Hmm, but we can't make tokens of both with only one mimic vat? (we can't make tokens of mimic vat at all in that deck)
So we bounce metallurgeon and replay it for BBM triggers, then EE=2. We can make a matallurgeon token, exile the herald, putting the metallurgeon in the gy, and mirror the wirewood herald back, Herald fetches the Godtoucher, then the metallurgeon token can bounce our artifacts and make enchantments. And we make a godtoucher with Sould foundry. We are nearly back where we started but we need a BBM trigger to get wirewood herald back now?
But we can only get BBM triggers for wirewood herald by killing a wirewood herald and fetching itself instead of godtoucher. Which requires another EE=2, which needs a rebuild.
I think there might still be some subtle loop there but I'm not sure. I couldn't find anything.
Another thought I had is maybe we don't need to kill all artifacts with the sweeper in child of alaras place? As all of our stage creatures are, well, creatures. So maybe a sweeper creature like myojin of cleansing fire or realm cloaked giant or any of the dozen or so other options can fit?
The problem with not killing off artifacts is that you don't have to kill off Mimic Vat and Vedalken Orrery.
Mimic Vat not getting killed off means it could survive while being imprinted with a hyperstage creature. If you can only have one Vat, I guess it's possible if you can soak up one more hyperstage creature usage in the megastage transition.
Vedalken Orrery surviving definitely seems bad, we can generally put the benefit ability below the destructive ability then, since we can recover after the destructive ability resolves. In the case of Smite the Monstrous, we can destroy with the first Monstrous, then the later ones can gain for the lower hyperstage.
Edit: Hmm, I guess going infinite if Vedalken Orrery survives is not necessarily that easy, since we won't have any stage creature tokens to facilitate things. Maybe it's worth some additional thought.
Saving an imprinted mimic vat is a problem though, we'd need to clear out the vats (and soul foundry) maybe we can force us to have the wrath creature imprinted?
We need something like a mass abrupt decay? Seems like all the existing cmc sweepers don't really work.
Well, I suppose a surviving Mimic Vat could be acceptable, if we found a way to use up an extra hyperstage token / Engineered Explosives. For example, the Razorfin Abolisher deck uses up two tokens in preparation of the megastage transition, so it can work with the Smite the Monstrous configuration. If we went to a configuration which couldn't return Goblin Dark-Dwellers to our hand (e.g. used Into Thin Air to create more hyperstage tokens rather than Smite the Monstrous), the extra token that that would create could be replaced with a surviving Mimic Vat. Although, if we went with Mirrorworks and multiple Mimic Vats, we would have to worry about an extra Metallurgeon token as well.
So it may be possible - but, what benefit do we get from switching away from Child of Alara? Perhaps switching to a different creature would free up some targeting in the hyperstage, like colors - we could target Boggart Mob as a black creature, for instance. Although, we didn't really find anything that good leading into black creatures.
Yeah the extra tokens are troublesome and Into Thin Air needs a copy of Spellweaver Volute on it which needs a card slot.
I'm just looking at other wrath creatures like magus of the disk to see if there are others that have different ways to fit into the combo. Godtoucher being able to also target the child makes all the soul foundry tricks needed. Also it would be great to lengthen the sweeper sequence and get like another hyperstage from something like Spell Queller in.
Sphinx of enlightenment looks like it is fine, we don't need to recycle it much since its basically the very bottom of the stack, it being slightly more expensive to retrigger is offset by the extra card we draw. Its a small upgrade but I don't see any problems (assuming the start works still)
Extending the sweeper sequence and getting another transition would be awesome. Hmm, what would be the advantage of just destroying creatures? The only thing we really save by destroying creatures rather than nonland permanents is planeswalkers (since we can already access enchantments and artifacts). How can we utilize planeswalkers? They seem hard to make use of, due to their loyalty abilities being activated at sorcery speed. Teferi, Temporal Archmage can get an emblem that allows us to use loyalty abilities at instant speed; but it can also fetch cards from the library, so would be hard to put planeswalkers at a place other than the very top. (Maybe if we could only return, say, green permanents?) Another possibility is Interplanar Beacon, which can gain us 1 life every time we cast a planeswalker. Then we can have the transition destroy all nonlands permanents, including the planeswalkers, and we can return them to our hand somehow. Maybe it could work?
Yeah that teferi is eliminated by both of his other loyalty abilities. Another way to tie walkers to gaining life is to burn them with something like lavabelly sliver or energy bolt or sorin's vengeance. But of course this kills the Walker and we would need to get it back. So a cast trigger is probably better. Wasp of the bitter end is kinda the only other one they've printed so far?
Hmm, looking at the Soul Foundry deck again, it uses up only one Engineered Explosives in the megastage transition. I thought for a little while that perhaps we could use up another by the fact that sacrificing an Engineered Explosives leads to a Godtoucher token, and tapping a Godtoucher token leads to returning Engineered Explosives to our hand. So, I figured whenever that sequence ended, we would end up with either an unused Godtoucher token, or an unused Engineered Explosives. But, it looks like you can tap the last Godtoucher token to trigger Psychic Battle triggers, and we can leave those Psychic Battle triggers on the stack, to be used to bounce Boggart Mob later. We can then go to the megastage transition, and afterwards, we can have Engineered Explosives in our hand, and also Goblin Dark-Dwellers, if we use Smite the Monstrous.
So, I think we need to go to an Into Thin Air / Brace for Impact configuration. But, not only does this require us to add Copy Enchantment, we also need a way to target Wormfang Behemoth, so that we can create Bloodbond March triggers for it. The only thing I can think of is Krosan Groundshaker, to target it as a Beast. But, green mana is too expensive in our current setup. So, we would have to go back to the previous version with the Raven Guild Initiate block. So we have:
Yeah that's right, we went through that transition pretty carefully already. As for the chalice deck, it looks probably ok because of how limited we are on artifacts (notably the number of vats we have) but again I also havent gone through it carefully enough to be confident in that answer. Stakfish seemed pretty confident that the transitions worked.
How does the Razorfin Abolisher deck compare to the others now? I think this puts godtoucher behind and tied with the chalice decks (assuming the fixes work)? And we were fairly confident that the RFA deck worked?
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But, there may be many changes that need to be made, in all the decks.
My main concern is if we missed some infinite from adding the Muzzio/goryo's vengeance line from the chalice versions.
Oh and didn't Mirrormade/copy artifact end up breaking things?
I'm not sure how to fix that. Switching out Mirror of Fate for Pull from Eternity means bringing Izzet Guildmage back in, which unfortunately allows us to cast Goryo's Vengeance too cheaply.
Edit: Oh, I think that Mirrormade is actually okay without Mirrorworks. Yes, we can imprint Mirrormade with a Mimic Vat to get a token copy of Rust Tick. But that puts Mirrormade in the exile zone. To get it out, we would have to sacrifice the actual Mirror of Fate. And then to get Mirror of Fate back, we would have to tap a Muzzio, Visionary Architect. So we can get a Rust Tick token at the cost of using a Muzzio, but that is allowed.
We can do this several times before needing to use a mirror of fate, which we can spend one of the copies on.
(Sharuum returning itself infinitely via legend rule+Psychic Battle doesn't look like it actually goes infinite with anything)
Sharuum the Hegemon goes infinite with Rust Tick, or whatever we're using as an artifact stage creature: We can tap a Rust Tick token to create a lot of Psychic Battle triggers, then repeatedly destroy the nontoken Rust Tick, creating a Rust Tick token, and bouncing Sharuum, allowing us to return Rust Tick to the battlefield.
Arcum Dagsson is another possible replacement for Muzzio. The main problem seems to be the same as Muzzio's: We can bring one hasted copy down below a hyperstage transition, and use it to get another Rust Tick token. So, like Muzzio, we need to be forced to use the hasted copy on something else, like retrieving Chalice of the Void or Vedalken Orrery.
Once we bounce it we imprint it on soul foundry, make a token, and tap it to get PB triggers and use one to bounce sharuum, sharuum back mirror of fate, mirror of fate back the original tick and anything else we need. Mill the rust tick, use the next pb trigger to bounce sharrum again, sharrum back the rust tick. Two more pb triggers gives us the soul foundry back and the rust tick in hand and we can start this all over again.
So we bounce metallurgeon and replay it for BBM triggers, then EE=2. We can make a matallurgeon token, exile the herald, putting the metallurgeon in the gy, and mirror the wirewood herald back, Herald fetches the Godtoucher, then the metallurgeon token can bounce our artifacts and make enchantments. And we make a godtoucher with Sould foundry. We are nearly back where we started but we need a BBM trigger to get wirewood herald back now?
But we can only get BBM triggers for wirewood herald by killing a wirewood herald and fetching itself instead of godtoucher. Which requires another EE=2, which needs a rebuild.
I'm not sure if this is actually a problem?
Another thought I had is maybe we don't need to kill all artifacts with the sweeper in child of alaras place? As all of our stage creatures are, well, creatures. So maybe a sweeper creature like myojin of cleansing fire or realm cloaked giant or any of the dozen or so other options can fit?
Mimic Vat not getting killed off means it could survive while being imprinted with a hyperstage creature. If you can only have one Vat, I guess it's possible if you can soak up one more hyperstage creature usage in the megastage transition.
Vedalken Orrery surviving definitely seems bad, we can generally put the benefit ability below the destructive ability then, since we can recover after the destructive ability resolves. In the case of Smite the Monstrous, we can destroy with the first Monstrous, then the later ones can gain for the lower hyperstage.
Edit: Hmm, I guess going infinite if Vedalken Orrery survives is not necessarily that easy, since we won't have any stage creature tokens to facilitate things. Maybe it's worth some additional thought.
We need something like a mass abrupt decay? Seems like all the existing cmc sweepers don't really work.
So it may be possible - but, what benefit do we get from switching away from Child of Alara? Perhaps switching to a different creature would free up some targeting in the hyperstage, like colors - we could target Boggart Mob as a black creature, for instance. Although, we didn't really find anything that good leading into black creatures.
Edit: Sphinx of Enlightenment is a possible upgrade of Words of Wisdom; but maybe not, since it seems harder to recycle in our current deck.
I'm just looking at other wrath creatures like magus of the disk to see if there are others that have different ways to fit into the combo. Godtoucher being able to also target the child makes all the soul foundry tricks needed. Also it would be great to lengthen the sweeper sequence and get like another hyperstage from something like Spell Queller in.
Sphinx of enlightenment looks like it is fine, we don't need to recycle it much since its basically the very bottom of the stack, it being slightly more expensive to retrigger is offset by the extra card we draw. Its a small upgrade but I don't see any problems (assuming the start works still)
So, I think we need to go to an Into Thin Air / Brace for Impact configuration. But, not only does this require us to add Copy Enchantment, we also need a way to target Wormfang Behemoth, so that we can create Bloodbond March triggers for it. The only thing I can think of is Krosan Groundshaker, to target it as a Beast. But, green mana is too expensive in our current setup. So, we would have to go back to the previous version with the Raven Guild Initiate block. So we have:
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Soul Foundry
8 Omniscience
9 Vedalken Orrery
10 Mirror of Fate
11 Mirrormade
12 Karn, Silver Golem
13 Perpetual Timepiece
14 Mimic Vat
15 Phantatog
16 Skull of Orm
17 Mana Crypt
18 Obelisk of Bant
19 Metallurgeon
20 Battle Cry
21 Rebuild
22 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
23 Boggart Mob
24 Godtoucher
25 Wirewood Herald
26 Engineered Explosives
27 Salvaging Station
28 Copper Gnomes
30 Acorn Harvest
31 Into Thin Air
32 Brace for Impact
33 Child of Alara
34 Tireless Missionaries
35 Celestial Gatekeeper
36 Raven Guild Initiate
37 Backslide
38 Copy Enchantment
39 Spellweaver Helix
40 Worldfire
41 Acorn Harvest
42 Acorn Harvest
43 Acorn Harvest
44 Molderhulk
45 Divine Congregation
46 Wormfang Behemoth
47 Krosan Groundshaker
48 Forest
49 Eureka
50 Elvish Spirit Guide
52 Frightshroud Courier
53 Simian Spirit Guide
54 Goblin Kites
55 Old Man of the Sea
56 Karplusan Yeti
57 Reality Spasm
58 Thousand-Year Storm
59 Consecrated Sphinx
60 Words of Wisdom
Down to 4 stages at the end.
How does the Razorfin Abolisher deck compare to the others now? I think this puts godtoucher behind and tied with the chalice decks (assuming the fixes work)? And we were fairly confident that the RFA deck worked?