Does anyone feel as I do in that the current event decks should be sold as the primary pre-con, the Intro Packs should part of the deck builder's toolkit and that the we should get Tournament decks from wizards that are actually viable.
Currently to make anything that resembles a FNM viable deck (I know there some casual fnms out there, they are few and far in between) you need to buy 2 event decks and put them together to make complete sets of all but the most powerful cards in them.
I mean we have the free decks you can get to learn to play magic with. And duels of the planeswalkers. Do we really need yet another tier of janky stuff no one should buy if they want to play magic anywhere but on their kitchen table?
Isn't the event deck simple enough for that?
Wouldn't making a budget tournament deck that can be upgraded into a full blow tournament deck be something worthwhile to get players into constructed right away?
I don't care what happens so long as the "primary precon" has an MSRP of under $15.
Or bring back theme decks.
I have a feeling that once you are experienced, it is hard to experience what it is like to be a new player. I know that it is better to have a more affordable entry point, so there must be some sort of balance. I think the current intro packs suck in comparison to theme decks, which is kind of the bar I set when it comes to how good the "primary" precon is. Current intro packs improved a bit though, compared to the 41 card intro packs from Alara and Zendikar blocks.
I think the best learning experience is realizing that a deck sucks, rather than giving them a good deck to use, but nowadays, people are so impatient that they want to be given the winning deck, which breeds netdeckers.
From your post, you are basically saying that WOTC should discontinue the intro pack, am I right? Kitchen table magic players still exist and intro packs don't make the event deck less important, unless you mean that WOTC should release 5 event decks per set, and 1 intro pack every other set, which I think it a dumb idea. Intro packs contain only 2 rares, while event decks contain 10 rares, meaning that a set of 5 event decks would contain 50 rares and the lone intro pack contains 2 rares, totaling to 52 rares from precons in one set, as opposed to the current format, 5 intro packs contains 2 rares, totalling to 10 rares, and the lone event deck contains 10 rares, which makes the total 20 rares. I don't think WOTC wants to give away rare cards too easily.
If intro packs were part of the deckbuilder's toolkit, it takes away the whole choose 1 of 5 intro pack experience and no matter how much you look at it, your idea is another way of saying that a $15 or less starter product is discontinued.
New players also can't tell the difference between playing intro pack vs intro pack, and event deck vs event deck. Either way, to them, they both think it is fun. The difference is, 2 intro packs cost $30 MSRP, and 2 event decks cost $50 MSRP, which brings me back to the point that once you won so many tournaments, you forget how it feels like to play MTG for the first time.
There also has to be a reason why intro packs aren't discontinued, maybe because there exists MTG players who just want to play the game, and not looking to be the best player?
I also made a thread stating whether intro packs should be discontinued. I said that because DOTP exists, intro packs should be designed in such a way that a person knows at least the basics of the game, and rather than teaching new players how to play the game, which is why intro packs of a couple years ago contain too many vanillas, instead, make intro packs so it focuses on teaching new players set specific themes and mechanics, which is what the current ones are doing now. I can buy a set of 5 dragons of tarkir intro packs to fully get a general grasp of what Dragons of Tarkir is all about. From that thread, most people say that intro packs should become theme decks again, and the current intro packs now are pretty much like theme decks.
If anything Event Decks need to have a higher quality to them again. There hasn't been a decent one in years.
In some older thread I made a comment that the idea of a tournament ready deck is a failure of an idea. Either they aren't tournament worthy enough, or they are tournament worthy and the stores just jack up the price.
We used to get 8 event deck per year, then it became 4 event decks per year, then it became 2 event decks per year, so even WOTC thinks it was sort of a failure, but not a total failure to warrant a total discontinuation.
I just don't think there is really a point to intro packs. Unless there is really no comic or card shop with the giveaway starter decks in your area.
We seem to give away a lot of them. I can't remember the last time we sold an intro deck. We still have ravnica intro decks on the shelf. Haven't ordered any since m14.
I just don't think there is really a point to intro packs. Unless there is really no comic or card shop with the giveaway starter decks in your area.
We seem to give away a lot of them. I can't remember the last time we sold an intro deck. We still have ravnica intro decks on the shelf. Haven't ordered any since m14.
Just because a box of Return to Ravnica intro packs sitting on your shelf not selling doesn't make it that intro packs in general don't sell. Your store is an anomaly, and I have been to multiple stores in 3 different cities, and intro packs sell. Older intro packs tend to not sell as well as newer intro packs, considering that intro pack collectors don't collect more than one of the same intro pack, and that the older intro pack would likely not be standard legal.
Another thing that might get new players to not buy intro packs is telling them to not buy intro packs. Maybe players in your LGS are telling new players that intro packs are the scum of the game, and should never be bought? I know in my LGS, the players and owners don't say that, and as such, intro packs sell.
Third thing as to why intro packs should stay. Try to make a tournament worthy deck focused on Bolster only. Make a second one focused on Rebound only. Make a third one focused on exploit only. Make a fourth one focused on dash only. Make a fifth one focused on formidable only. The catch is, it must contain only 2 rares, and the cards must be only from the block in which the set is based off of. It is impossible to do such a thing.
You mention that intro pack deck themes should be part of the deckbuilder's toolkit, meaning that each set should have a deckbuilder's toolkit. I don't think it is a good idea because it just means that players are now forced to buy all 5 intro packs at once, as opposed to buying 1 of 5, or all 5 in different points in time.
Here is what I personally think should happen. Event Decks, Clash Packs, Deckbuilder's toolkit and intro packs should all stay. Deckbuilder's toolkit should become the actual first product new players should buy, and it should contain an actual paper rulebook, 2 half decks with step by step instructions on how to play, as well as a list of generic deck themes and a bunch of decklists based on those themes. These are released once per year.
Event Decks and clash packs should stay the way they are, and rather than being tournament ready, advertise it as a jumping off point for tournament play product. They are still released once per every other set.
Intro packs should no longer cater to the people who have no idea how to play, but is more catered to people who know the basics, and want to get a feel of how the sets mechanics and themes are played. As such intro packs should do away with the 2 boosters and make a more complete deck while still adhering to the cards from the block only and 2 rares only constraint. In short, bring back theme decks. The intro pack inserts should also contain a list of all the mechanics in the set and how they work, rather than be a waste of space and have one giant picture of something. Have you seen the Fate Reforged intro pack strategy insert? On the back is just the 5 decklists. On the front is one giant picture of Ugin. What a waste of space. Space that could be used to explain how the new Fate reforged as well as returning Khans of Tarkir mechanics worked. Intro packs/theme decks are released once per set and contain 5 per set.
Here's the thing. Not every deck based on a specific mechanic can be tournament worthy. I also feel that the deck that focuses on a set's theme and mechanics is dumbed down for new players, when it is better to make a product specifically for new players, and revert the intro pack back into theme decks. New players should learn the generic game first before learning how to use the set's mechanics, rather than being exposed to the likes of Exploit or Formidable for the first time.
If anything Event Decks need to have a higher quality to them again. There hasn't been a decent one in years.
In some older thread I made a comment that the idea of a tournament ready deck is a failure of an idea. Either they aren't tournament worthy enough, or they are tournament worthy and the stores just jack up the price.
We used to get 8 event deck per year, then it became 4 event decks per year, then it became 2 event decks per year, so even WOTC thinks it was sort of a failure, but not a total failure to warrant a total discontinuation.
I don't mean they should make sure to include $50 in every event deck, but the clash packs have been doing so much better because they tend to have more value in them, not to mention more cards. At least for a $20 event deck having $25 in it isn't all that hard and many wouldn't mark up the price for it because you can find them at every Wal-Mart.
Wizards goal is to sell product to make money; something I think every business sets as a top priority.
Intro packs and such are a good way for new players to get into the game and learn. Your local LGS would normally want to support new players because they represent future customers. I know when people come into my local LGS and they are looking to get into magic or are very new and wonder what to buy, many players suggest Intro decks and other starter products because its going to allow the new players the ability to make a deck and play with it (or they just play at home and want to make a deck to play with a friend/sibling). If you buy 6 packs (equivalent to a sealed deck), the chances you take those 6 packs and make a deck you would enjoy playing and want to continue to play Magic is quite small.
Not every LGS is going to have the same customer base, but suggesting that 'new player product' is janky stuff that no one should buy is just ignorant. Kitchen Table players vastly outnumber 'competitive' tournament players. Ever wonder why cards with no tournament use are obscenely priced? Go and thank those 'Kitchen Table' players for your Doubling Season being $28-30 and captivating vampire being almost $7.
Kitchen Table players are a big reason why Magic is so popular and why it has endured for 20 years.
Currently to make anything that resembles a FNM viable deck (I know there some casual fnms out there, they are few and far in between) you need to buy 2 event decks and put them together to make complete sets of all but the most powerful cards in them.
I mean we have the free decks you can get to learn to play magic with. And duels of the planeswalkers. Do we really need yet another tier of janky stuff no one should buy if they want to play magic anywhere but on their kitchen table?
Isn't the event deck simple enough for that?
Wouldn't making a budget tournament deck that can be upgraded into a full blow tournament deck be something worthwhile to get players into constructed right away?
Or bring back theme decks.
I have a feeling that once you are experienced, it is hard to experience what it is like to be a new player. I know that it is better to have a more affordable entry point, so there must be some sort of balance. I think the current intro packs suck in comparison to theme decks, which is kind of the bar I set when it comes to how good the "primary" precon is. Current intro packs improved a bit though, compared to the 41 card intro packs from Alara and Zendikar blocks.
I think the best learning experience is realizing that a deck sucks, rather than giving them a good deck to use, but nowadays, people are so impatient that they want to be given the winning deck, which breeds netdeckers.
From your post, you are basically saying that WOTC should discontinue the intro pack, am I right? Kitchen table magic players still exist and intro packs don't make the event deck less important, unless you mean that WOTC should release 5 event decks per set, and 1 intro pack every other set, which I think it a dumb idea. Intro packs contain only 2 rares, while event decks contain 10 rares, meaning that a set of 5 event decks would contain 50 rares and the lone intro pack contains 2 rares, totaling to 52 rares from precons in one set, as opposed to the current format, 5 intro packs contains 2 rares, totalling to 10 rares, and the lone event deck contains 10 rares, which makes the total 20 rares. I don't think WOTC wants to give away rare cards too easily.
If intro packs were part of the deckbuilder's toolkit, it takes away the whole choose 1 of 5 intro pack experience and no matter how much you look at it, your idea is another way of saying that a $15 or less starter product is discontinued.
New players also can't tell the difference between playing intro pack vs intro pack, and event deck vs event deck. Either way, to them, they both think it is fun. The difference is, 2 intro packs cost $30 MSRP, and 2 event decks cost $50 MSRP, which brings me back to the point that once you won so many tournaments, you forget how it feels like to play MTG for the first time.
There also has to be a reason why intro packs aren't discontinued, maybe because there exists MTG players who just want to play the game, and not looking to be the best player?
I also made a thread stating whether intro packs should be discontinued. I said that because DOTP exists, intro packs should be designed in such a way that a person knows at least the basics of the game, and rather than teaching new players how to play the game, which is why intro packs of a couple years ago contain too many vanillas, instead, make intro packs so it focuses on teaching new players set specific themes and mechanics, which is what the current ones are doing now. I can buy a set of 5 dragons of tarkir intro packs to fully get a general grasp of what Dragons of Tarkir is all about. From that thread, most people say that intro packs should become theme decks again, and the current intro packs now are pretty much like theme decks.
In some older thread I made a comment that the idea of a tournament ready deck is a failure of an idea. Either they aren't tournament worthy enough, or they are tournament worthy and the stores just jack up the price.
We used to get 8 event deck per year, then it became 4 event decks per year, then it became 2 event decks per year, so even WOTC thinks it was sort of a failure, but not a total failure to warrant a total discontinuation.
We seem to give away a lot of them. I can't remember the last time we sold an intro deck. We still have ravnica intro decks on the shelf. Haven't ordered any since m14.
Just because a box of Return to Ravnica intro packs sitting on your shelf not selling doesn't make it that intro packs in general don't sell. Your store is an anomaly, and I have been to multiple stores in 3 different cities, and intro packs sell. Older intro packs tend to not sell as well as newer intro packs, considering that intro pack collectors don't collect more than one of the same intro pack, and that the older intro pack would likely not be standard legal.
Another thing that might get new players to not buy intro packs is telling them to not buy intro packs. Maybe players in your LGS are telling new players that intro packs are the scum of the game, and should never be bought? I know in my LGS, the players and owners don't say that, and as such, intro packs sell.
Third thing as to why intro packs should stay. Try to make a tournament worthy deck focused on Bolster only. Make a second one focused on Rebound only. Make a third one focused on exploit only. Make a fourth one focused on dash only. Make a fifth one focused on formidable only. The catch is, it must contain only 2 rares, and the cards must be only from the block in which the set is based off of. It is impossible to do such a thing.
You mention that intro pack deck themes should be part of the deckbuilder's toolkit, meaning that each set should have a deckbuilder's toolkit. I don't think it is a good idea because it just means that players are now forced to buy all 5 intro packs at once, as opposed to buying 1 of 5, or all 5 in different points in time.
Here is what I personally think should happen. Event Decks, Clash Packs, Deckbuilder's toolkit and intro packs should all stay. Deckbuilder's toolkit should become the actual first product new players should buy, and it should contain an actual paper rulebook, 2 half decks with step by step instructions on how to play, as well as a list of generic deck themes and a bunch of decklists based on those themes. These are released once per year.
Event Decks and clash packs should stay the way they are, and rather than being tournament ready, advertise it as a jumping off point for tournament play product. They are still released once per every other set.
Intro packs should no longer cater to the people who have no idea how to play, but is more catered to people who know the basics, and want to get a feel of how the sets mechanics and themes are played. As such intro packs should do away with the 2 boosters and make a more complete deck while still adhering to the cards from the block only and 2 rares only constraint. In short, bring back theme decks. The intro pack inserts should also contain a list of all the mechanics in the set and how they work, rather than be a waste of space and have one giant picture of something. Have you seen the Fate Reforged intro pack strategy insert? On the back is just the 5 decklists. On the front is one giant picture of Ugin. What a waste of space. Space that could be used to explain how the new Fate reforged as well as returning Khans of Tarkir mechanics worked. Intro packs/theme decks are released once per set and contain 5 per set.
Here's the thing. Not every deck based on a specific mechanic can be tournament worthy. I also feel that the deck that focuses on a set's theme and mechanics is dumbed down for new players, when it is better to make a product specifically for new players, and revert the intro pack back into theme decks. New players should learn the generic game first before learning how to use the set's mechanics, rather than being exposed to the likes of Exploit or Formidable for the first time.
You make it seem as if kitchen table magic players don't exist, and that all LGS's in the world are exactly like your LGS.
I don't mean they should make sure to include $50 in every event deck, but the clash packs have been doing so much better because they tend to have more value in them, not to mention more cards. At least for a $20 event deck having $25 in it isn't all that hard and many wouldn't mark up the price for it because you can find them at every Wal-Mart.
Intro packs and such are a good way for new players to get into the game and learn. Your local LGS would normally want to support new players because they represent future customers. I know when people come into my local LGS and they are looking to get into magic or are very new and wonder what to buy, many players suggest Intro decks and other starter products because its going to allow the new players the ability to make a deck and play with it (or they just play at home and want to make a deck to play with a friend/sibling). If you buy 6 packs (equivalent to a sealed deck), the chances you take those 6 packs and make a deck you would enjoy playing and want to continue to play Magic is quite small.
Not every LGS is going to have the same customer base, but suggesting that 'new player product' is janky stuff that no one should buy is just ignorant. Kitchen Table players vastly outnumber 'competitive' tournament players. Ever wonder why cards with no tournament use are obscenely priced? Go and thank those 'Kitchen Table' players for your Doubling Season being $28-30 and captivating vampire being almost $7.
Kitchen Table players are a big reason why Magic is so popular and why it has endured for 20 years.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015