Do you feel Judge Foils are not real cards? I am wondering because they are obviously not the first printing. Not even in a set. Yet there are many that are far more expensive and collectable than the original printing. Which seems to be another hole in your reasoning.
I am not any sort of hipster. And I don't invest in singles, only in sealed product, so I don't really have any stake in this argument financially.
I still haven't seen an argument that counters what I point out about Modern Masters not really being an MTG set. It is a collection of cards from other sets, not a set in itself. With the fetchlands example, those cards are part of the Khans set. They now belong to two sets. But Fulminator Mage only belongs to Shadowmoor. In addition it has now been printed with an expansion symbol on it that does not belong to any MTG set and is not a continuation of the game as it has been expanded via three-set expansion blocks for decades now. Surely you can see the difference.
Core sets were unique because they were a continuation of Alpha and Beta, and for a while they were limited to universal cards without much story to them, just keeping a bread-and-butter core to the game to ease new players in. Now that they've included all manner of cards in them in the last few years, they have rightly come to the point of saying that the core set no longer makes sense. Never was the core set a "best of" compilation though.
How come Chronicles cards are worth so much less than their Legends counterparts?
To answer some other questions, if there was a set that was all reprints except for one card, that wouldn't be any different than Modern Masters. It would just be weird that they included one new card in the set.
About the fetchland prices, on SCG Polluted Delta is $16.75 in Khans, $37.89 in Onslaught. Khans foil is $84.99, Onslaught foil is $399.99. That's a big difference.
Normal expansion sets expand the game and have a lot of new cards in them. Modern Masters does not do anything but reprint cards for the sake of play. If play is the only purpose, I have no problem with people using them, but they are no longer using legitimately collectible items. They are using cards created specifically and only for their enjoyment in play. To show off Modern Masters cards in a binder would look really silly, that's the point I'm trying to make.
I remember going to the grocery store with my family when I was little, and sometimes I would want to push the cart, but one of my siblings was already pushing it that day, so my mom would take another cart and say "here, you can push this one." She didn't get that I wanted to push the cart that was needed for the grocery shopping, the cart that was 'the actual' cart that we were using. It wasn't just for the sake of pushing a cart around the store purposelessly.
If I was trying to build a deck using cards that have now been reprinted in MM and MM2015, and someone gave me a bunch of MM and MM2015 cards and said "here, now you can build your deck" it wouldn't feel to me much different than it did to get handed that redundant, useless cart to push around, and they would feel entirely like proxies. Yes, I could use them and play the game and use their abilities, but I wouldn't *have* those cards in the context of the collectible aspect of the game, they don't have on them the expansion symbols from the sets that they actually belong to. Modern Masters is not a set.
Edit: It won't let me card tag...
You've given a great analogy that perfectly demonstrates why your argument is wrong. You wanted to push a specific cart. Sure, that's fine. The other cart didn't satisfy you. Again, fine. And if you had said "But that's not a shopping cart!", you would have been completely wrong. It is a very real shopping cart, it just isn't the one you want.
Modern Masters is a real set. Its cards are real cards. It just isn't the set you want, or the cards you want. You get to choose to play with, or purchase, whatever you want. It's just silly to claim that "I don't want this" == "This isn't real".
Again, you are using the terms "legitimate" and "real" in a way that is divorced from how everyone else here uses those terms.
Let me ask you this: what specific action would you like to see taken?
I am not any sort of hipster. And I don't invest in singles, only in sealed product, so I don't really have any stake in this argument financially.
I still haven't seen an argument that counters what I point out about Modern Masters not really being an MTG set. It is a collection of cards from other sets, not a set in itself. With the fetchlands example, those cards are part of the Khans set. They now belong to two sets. But Fulminator Mage only belongs to Shadowmoor. In addition it has now been printed with an expansion symbol on it that does not belong to any MTG set and is not a continuation of the game as it has been expanded via three-set expansion blocks for decades now. Surely you can see the difference.
Core sets were unique because they were a continuation of Alpha and Beta, and for a while they were limited to universal cards without much story to them, just keeping a bread-and-butter core to the game to ease new players in. Now that they've included all manner of cards in them in the last few years, they have rightly come to the point of saying that the core set no longer makes sense. Never was the core set a "best of" compilation though.
How come Chronicles cards are worth so much less than their Legends counterparts?
To answer some other questions, if there was a set that was all reprints except for one card, that wouldn't be any different than Modern Masters. It would just be weird that they included one new card in the set.
About the fetchland prices, on SCG Polluted Delta is $16.75 in Khans, $37.89 in Onslaught. Khans foil is $84.99, Onslaught foil is $399.99. That's a big difference.
Normal expansion sets expand the game and have a lot of new cards in them. Modern Masters does not do anything but reprint cards for the sake of play. If play is the only purpose, I have no problem with people using them, but they are no longer using legitimately collectible items. They are using cards created specifically and only for their enjoyment in play. To show off Modern Masters cards in a binder would look really silly, that's the point I'm trying to make.
I remember going to the grocery store with my family when I was little, and sometimes I would want to push the cart, but one of my siblings was already pushing it that day, so my mom would take another cart and say "here, you can push this one." She didn't get that I wanted to push the cart that was needed for the grocery shopping, the cart that was 'the actual' cart that we were using. It wasn't just for the sake of pushing a cart around the store purposelessly.
If I was trying to build a deck using cards that have now been reprinted in MM and MM2015, and someone gave me a bunch of MM and MM2015 cards and said "here, now you can build your deck" it wouldn't feel to me much different than it did to get handed that redundant, useless cart to push around, and they would feel entirely like proxies. Yes, I could use them and play the game and use their abilities, but I wouldn't *have* those cards in the context of the collectible aspect of the game, they don't have on them the expansion symbols from the sets that they actually belong to. Modern Masters is not a set.
Edit: It won't let me card tag...
You've given a great analogy that perfectly demonstrates why your argument is wrong. You wanted to push a specific cart. Sure, that's fine. The other cart didn't satisfy you. Again, fine. And if you had said "But that's not a shopping cart!", you would have been completely wrong. It is a very real shopping cart, it just isn't the one you want.
Modern Masters is a real set. Its cards are real cards. It just isn't the set you want, or the cards you want. You get to choose to play with, or purchase, whatever you want. It's just silly to claim that "I don't want this" == "This isn't real".
Again, you are using the terms "legitimate" and "real" in a way that is divorced from how everyone else here uses those terms.
Let me ask you this: what specific action would you like to see taken?
No action is required. Modern Masters cards will never be seen as collectible in the same way the original printings are, so my community, the community that recognizes that obtaining a card via a reprint-only-for-the-sake-of-making-coveted-cards-easily-accessible "expansion" set is not really the same as actually having those cards in the context of the collectible Magic: The Gathering game, will keep alive the true collectible aspect of the game, while those who like Modern Masters can enjoy their legal, sanctioned proxies.
I was just curious if anyone else on this board happened to be from that community.
You're so right. Every time I see someone playing fake Beta or Unlimited cards, I feel sick and never play with them again. It's a shame that not more people have real cards.
The high horses some people ride on are outstanding, calling cards printed by WOTC proxies. Though I do think this topic has officially become the beating of a dead horse having become just one bit circle, so y'all have fun!
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Trying to make crappy pet cards work since 2002.
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
No action is required. Modern Masters cards will never be seen as collectible in the same way the original printings are,
They are certainly collectible. They fill a different slot in the collection, but a person who has a collection that includes one copy of every card from every Wizards-printed set will almost universally be considered to have a more complete collection than a person who has a copy of every card from every Wizards-printed set except for Modern Masters.
so my community, the community that recognizes that obtaining a card via a reprint-only-for-the-sake-of-making-coveted-cards-easily-accessible "expansion" set is not really the same as actually having those cards in the context of the collectible Magic: The Gathering game, will keep alive the true collectible aspect of the game, while those who like Modern Masters can enjoy their legal, sanctioned proxies.
I was just curious if anyone else on this board happened to be from that community.
I believe it is unlikely that the size of the community you describe is larger than a dozen people in the entire world. I am a collector. I collect Magic: the Gathering cards. Filling a slot in my collection is one of the primary values of a card for me. I consider the Modern Masters printings to be equally legitimate to any official printing, and in a few cases I would prefer to acquire a Modern Masters printing over a different print of the same card.
People are not really objecting to your desire to collect a specific subset of Magic cards. There are people who collect exclusively foils. There are people who collect exclusively Mulldrifters. There are people who only collect cards with art by Rebecca Guay. That is fine. The thing that people are objecting to is your claim that the particular subset of collection that you have chosen is in some way objectively better, more real, or more authentic than others.
You are, you so are. You nitpicking about something being done that was done before in different way and how the original implementation was better. And while people would agree on the price and very limited distribution isnt good. But stating core sets prior to M10 add to/continue Magics flavor it untterly false. The core sets prior to M10 did nothing to continuity of any of the cards in those set. Your essentially say that Arcanis, the Omnipotent from the duel deck isnt really a card because that version wasn't printed in an expansion or core set. Yet its a reprint of a card from Onslaught exactly like its 10 edition printing, which you state has more legitimacy. A reprint of Emrakul is no less legitimate the one from Zendikar, that applies to any reprint period. And that is why you are being a hipster. I enjoy the irony of you thinking that someone who owns a FtV Shivan Dragon doesnt have a real Shivan Dragon because it wasnt released in an expansion or core-set despite that version specifically being a collectors item.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I can understand the point the OP is making. I would compare it to collecting comics, or even books in general. Someone who considers themself a "serious" or "hardcore" collector will go out of their way to get 1st printings. Later printings (god forbid, reprints that came years later) just don't hold the same value for them. But not all of us were around when, say, Moby Dick or Action Comics #1 was first printed. We also are unable or unwilling to pay the extreme prices for these items, so we fill the holes in our collections with reprints.
The actual function is the same. We are able to experience and enjoy these stories, just like someone who owns the "original". It expands the fandom, and allows our hobbies to continue to grow. For someone to look at my bookshelf and claim I am not a collector because of the many reprints is just elitism. For them to look at my bookshelf and say "these aren't books" is just silly.
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As Yatsufusa stated earlier, everyone had a jumping-on point into the game. Very few of us can claim that we started with Alpha. For me, the jumping-on point was Ice Age. I am proud of that fact, and prefer to use Ice Age versions of cards like Counterspell,Brainstorm, and Swords to Plowshares. Some people like to point out that these aren't the originals, or the most valuable, or the best looking versions. But that is my preference.
And for some people, their jumping on point will be MM15. They may prioritize their own experiences ("this was the first rare I ever cracked!") over having the "original" version.
Some people may also prioritize having the best-looking version of a card. MM15 Cryptic Command has the much-easier-to-read bulleted text. MM15 Vendilion Clique has (in my opinion) vastly superior art to the original. Am I wrong for preferring the newer version? I can't be wrong, because it's a personal choice.
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Wow, this is longer than I anticipated. One more point, and I will shut up. I can take the OP's argument even further, by comparing it to playmats. I am very proud of the several Game Day playmats that I have won. It is a badge of honor that says, "I earned this". But there were several GD mats that I was not able to win. I could have bought them from eBay, but it wouldn't have been the same. I wouldn't really have been the champion. I would just have payed someone else to get it for me, like buying a trophy and claiming I won it.
So, the only way to really collect a card is to crack it from a pack. If you just payed someone else for that card, did you really earn it?
I totally dislike playing for the sake of collecting. In my ideal world, MTG decks would top out in value around $10-$15 at most, enabling just about anyone who wanted to to play... I realize that's unlikely to happen, but it makes me sad to see the high barrier to entry for people who might otherwise enjoy Legacy, Vintage, etc.
That being said, I totally think collectors should have their own thing as well. In my ideal world, card reprinting would be common, but they would never reuse the same art twice. Once a card was printed, you'd never have the chance to get that exact card again or anything that looked like it, however you could always get a reprint with different art if the only reason you wanted the card was to play with it. In that vein, I think high value collectables like GP Foils, Player Rewards Cards, Judge foils, etc. Are great and should continue.
I feel that collectors and players overlap, but there should be space for both: no-one should be shut out of a format because something wasn't reprinted, but one should feel that every card one owns is, to some degree, "special".
There is no cost barrier for new players. Intro packs cost $15 and come with two boosters each. My wife and I have had loads of fun with just five or ten intro packs from sets from the last couple years. Even just a single pair of intro packs can be a game that doesn't grow old for a very long time.
Which is fine for playing at the kitchen table. When you go to play ina tournament, however, you need to spend a lot more money to make a deck that can be competitive. In Modern, a good chunk of that money is simply for a manabase, but there are a lot of cards that you'll need 4-of that add up quickly. The price barrier isn't a barrier to the game, it's to the game at any serious competitive level: spend the cash, or lose to those who did.
But that is not the same thing. The opportunity to "play the game" is indeed easily available to anyone. Competition is another matter, and why shouldn't it be? If I want to go cycling around my neighborhood for fun and exercise, I can. I can use any old beat-up bike to do it. If I want to compete in long-distance cycling races, I have to fork out for the ultimate in lightweight bicycles. Why should MtG be any different?
Emphasis mine.
In part because it's main demographic are college-aged males who aren't really known for having the spare change to throw away on $300-$waytoomuch on a deck. There should still be some barrier to entry for higher-level play, as that keeps the game and it's market healthy, but it doesn't need to be as high as it is, especially for something as popular as modern. Legacy and Vintage will maintain their high prices due to the reserve list, so those formats will likely always remain open mostly to only the more dedicated players and collectors. There's no need for every format to be like that, though. It isn't as though modern masters is flooding the market with staples and crashing all their secondary market value, it's just lowering it a bit and keeping the supply up so the format has healthy room to grow.
I can understand the point the OP is making. I would compare it to collecting comics, or even books in general. Someone who considers themself a "serious" or "hardcore" collector will go out of their way to get 1st printings. Later printings (god forbid, reprints that came years later) just don't hold the same value for them. But not all of us were around when, say, Moby Dick or Action Comics #1 was first printed. We also are unable or unwilling to pay the extreme prices for these items, so we fill the holes in our collections with reprints.
That does not quite work as a comparison:
1) With the exception of the 90's comic bubble, reprint comics and books are not presented as collectable in any way, though as was said a collectable is what you think it is.
2) Reprinted cards are not printed in the VAST quantities that books are reprinted. Comics are a bit different- in the 90's the market was so flooded with garbage that it killed the market and it has never really recovered. It would be like if MM2015 was printed and reprinted in the quantities of popular block set, and it happened every year.
3) No one is saying that he can't collect whatever he wants, it is his assertions that come cards are objectively not real cards from a collectibility standpoint. Beanie Babies may be garbage from a monetary standpoint now, but they are still collectables for a lot of people.
Again, if he clarifies that this is his opinion and is entirely subjective, then fine...argument over since you cannot argue an opinion.
I see what you're trying to say here. You're looking at it as though formats are each a separate game. Even if 8th edition is nothing but reprints, it is the "real" set of pieces for all standard formats that included 8th edition. Similarly, side products like duel decks are their own game and premium products like FTV sets are a sort of "deluxe version."
So 8th does reprint old cards, but it creates a new "game" in doing so - you could play it with the older versions, but that would be like playing a game of chess using pieces from a bunch of other boardgames. But Modern existed as a complete game before MM2 was released. MM2 is more like a set of replacement pieces rather than creating a new format.
What makes people find this difficult to understand is the existence of MM2 limited. You could argue that it's secondary to the goal of providing replacement parts, but there's still a complete game that can be played using nothing but MM2 boosters and basic lands.
I'm curious if Promos are real cards to you. Also how do you feel about the cards that are unique to Conspiracy and the various Commander/Planechase decks.
You are, you so are. You nitpicking about something being done that was done before in different way and how the original implementation was better. And while people would agree on the price and very limited distribution isnt good. But stating core sets prior to M10 add to/continue Magics flavor it untterly false. The core sets prior to M10 did nothing to continuity of any of the cards in those set. Your essentially say that Arcanis, the Omnipotent from the duel deck isnt really a card because that version wasn't printed in an expansion or core set. Yet its a reprint of a card from Onslaught exactly like its 10 edition printing, which you state has more legitimacy. A reprint of Emrakul is no less legitimate the one from Zendikar, that applies to any reprint period. And that is why you are being a hipster. I enjoy the irony of you thinking that someone who owns a FtV Shivan Dragon doesnt have a real Shivan Dragon because it wasnt released in an expansion or core-set despite that version specifically being a collectors item.
I never said that I considered Arcanis from 10th Edition to be the same as Arcanis from Onslaught. I got a box of 10th Edition when it came out, and I had a lot of fun opening those packs, and it felt cool to have an Arcanis in the new card frame with that gold X symbol on it, but it didn't feel to me like an authentic Arcanis. I wouldn't have said to somebody "I got Arcanis" or "I have Arcanis" in the same way I would have if I had the Onslaught card. I felt like Arcanis was an Onslaught card and I had obtained a reprint of it that could be used in games but was by no means the same as the Onslaught card in the context of the collectible side of the game. I mentioned Phage as another example earlier, and clarified that I am being consistent with this. Furthermore, the fact that 10th Edition had a black border felt weird to me as well.. the white borders for previous core sets set them apart from the expansions, so even if there was a reprint from an expansion it was very clear that this one belonged in the core set game and was not as serious a card from a collectors perspective.
However, Arcanis from 10th Edition is a more collectible piece from my perspective than Arcanis from a dual deck, and 0evil_overlord0 more or less explained why.
Wow, this is longer than I anticipated. One more point, and I will shut up. I can take the OP's argument even further, by comparing it to playmats. I am very proud of the several Game Day playmats that I have won. It is a badge of honor that says, "I earned this". But there were several GD mats that I was not able to win. I could have bought them from eBay, but it wouldn't have been the same. I wouldn't really have been the champion. I would just have payed someone else to get it for me, like buying a trophy and claiming I won it.
So, the only way to really collect a card is to crack it from a pack. If you just payed someone else for that card, did you really earn it?
Interestingly enough, I build my collection exclusively via opening packs. I do not buy singles. It doesn't make sense to me to display a cool card in a binder which I paid someone else to rummage through packs to get for me. Also, you cannot technically buy cards brand new unless you buy packs.
In addition to investing in sealed product (the origin of my username here), I purchase a modest number of boxes of each set to open, sort, and keep indefinitely simply in the interest of collecting the cards. It was a no brainer that any collection I would build would have to be made up entirely of cards I pulled from packs myself.
Edit: Lastly, people keep asking how I feel about Conspiracy, Planechase, etc. I don't invest in or collect anything that doesn't belong to the standard rotation of the game. I hardly have an inkling of what exactly is in a Conspiracy pack, it doesn't really register in my mind as part of the Magic collectible card game. Same for any cards from any products like Dual Decks, Commander Decks, etc. These products are all well and good for people to play with and have fun, but as they are full of reprints with symbols on them that don't belong to any actual Magic: The Gathering expansion set, they don't fall within the game from the authentic collectors perspective.
Edit: Lastly, people keep asking how I feel about Conspiracy, Planechase, etc. I don't invest in or collect anything that doesn't belong to the standard rotation of the game. I hardly have an inkling of what exactly is in a Conspiracy pack, it doesn't really register in my mind as part of the Magic collectible card game. Same for any cards from any products like Dual Decks, Commander Decks, etc. These products are all well and good for people to play with and have fun, but as they are full of reprints with symbols on them that don't belong to any actual Magic: The Gathering expansion set, they don't fall within the game from the authentic collectors perspective.
I've already addressed this issue in my previous post:
So basically you're saying Modern Masters (and Supplementary Products, as well as some Core Sets) don't feel authentic to some collectors. So it just means some supplementary products aren't for some collectors.
Wizards has its main printers running for 4 sets per year to continuously run the "Main Storyline Authentic Magic Game" you are collecting. As the main printers are always busy, there is no way to ever reprint a past set in its entirely. Wizards caters the "side-printers" to the people you've mentioned - those who just want to play Magic and have fun.
Magic is a very large game, with many players moving in and out of the game. There are bound to be people who missed certain eras of the game and new players that never experience anything before some point. Supplementary products exist to cater to this people.
As mentioned earlier, it's impossible to replicate the experience of the "Main Storyline Authentic Magic Game" from the past - that process is still present and continuous right now in the form of Standard Sets and the printers are all busy with that. To replicate the authenticity of the past would require stopping the present authenticity to cater to that, both logistics-wise and flavor-wise (I, for one would be quite confused if we were supposedly on Zendikar and Mirrodin at the same time.) In fact, if anything, even a full direct reprint wouldn't feel real - what are we doing on Mirrodin when it's supposed to be New Phyrexia now? Okay, perhaps re-living the authenticity then wouldn't feel bad, but it's jarring since it's happening alongside the present events and we already know the results.
You are already collecting what you deem as the "Authentic Collector's Magic", which consists of the sets that rotate through Standard. You also said:
Interestingly enough, I build my collection exclusively via opening packs. I do not buy singles. It doesn't make sense to me to display a cool card in a binder which I paid someone else to rummage through packs to get for me. Also, you cannot technically buy cards brand new unless you buy packs.
In addition to investing in sealed product (the origin of my username here), I purchase a modest number of boxes of each set to open, sort, and keep indefinitely simply in the interest of collecting the cards. It was a no brainer that any collection I would build would have to be made up entirely of cards I pulled from packs myself.
So you are a collector that determines your "Authenticity" of your collection through the "Now": Cards must be relevant to the current storyline and opened new from booster packs.
Supplementary Products don't serve this purpose - they exist either for play (Planechase/Archenemy/Conspiracy) or reprints for the sake of reprints (Modern Masters). There has never been a supplementary product catered to "the present/now" because that's what the main printers are doing. No Supplementary Product enters Standard, which is the benchmark of what you determine to collect.
Magic may be a Collectible Card Game, but that doesn't mean every product printed by Magic has to be "Collectible", the same way not every card printed will be "Playable".
I just realized that this thought process reminds me of interactions I'd have when I would converse with a person who has autism. I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to imply that autism is at play here, nor do I mean that in any offense, and I don't think there's anything really wrong with that. Some people are just really particular about how certain things make sense to them (autistic and non-autistic), and I feel no need to change that. While my reprint of a noble hierarch is not "real" in terms of it being the original, it's still "real" in terms of functionality, monetary value, legality, and material. A good majority of people will find authenticity in the latter values I mentioned, but knowing how my autistic friend who has a hard time grasping the concept of the overall forest (functionality) rather than focusing on the trees (literalness), I understand that there are different ways to look at things. He may have a difficult understanding other points of view, but it's not in my authority to make him understand the concepts of the world's views as well as my own.
Reprints are the reason eternal formats can even exist. Legacy is on it's way out because the stables of that format can't be reprinted(BS). If you want original printing trade into them with your stuff you pull from your MM box easy as that.
I hardly have an inkling of what exactly is in a Conspiracy pack, it doesn't really register in my mind as part of the Magic collectible card game. Same for any cards from any products like Dual Decks, Commander Decks, etc. These products are all well and good for people to play with and have fun, but as they are full of reprints with symbols on them that don't belong to any actual Magic: The Gathering expansion set, they don't fall within the game from the authentic collectors perspective.
the rest of your post is perfectly fine and indesputable, since what you are saying is all about you like to collect and how you do it. Where you loose people is with this last bit. You are claiming that there is a defined set of practices that determines who and who isn't an authentic collector. You also claim that the sets you collect are the only authentic MTG expansions from a collector's standpoint, but you have no authority to make that assertion objectvely. You can say that the sets don't fit into the cards you have decided to collect, but you cannot claim they are the only cards an "authentic collector" should collect. Stick to opinion statements centered on your (imo) weird and arbitrary personal rules for collecting, and avoid objectively declaring who is authentic and who isn't. It will make the discussion less abrasive
Just to prove you wrong about collectability of modern masters sets, look at the alternate art on some cards like vendilion clique. Sure the last MM set was a poor example of this but the only way you can get vendilion clique with that art is out of a modern masters 2015 pack. 'Doesn't feel authentic' sounds incredibly stupid. As for you setting collector 'standards' to each his own. Your word isn't law. There are people who collect misprints and other oddities. The odds of opening a misprint out of a pack are infinitesimal or at least a misprint that matters like an albino magic card, miscut showing 2 cards, etc. etc. so apparently those people are wrong to buy misprints or trade for misprints off other people because they absolutely have to crack them out of a pack themselves. You could spend $10,000 on booster boxes and not see a single misprint in all those boxes pretty easily I'd wager.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Edit: Lastly, people keep asking how I feel about Conspiracy, Planechase, etc. I don't invest in or collect anything that doesn't belong to the standard rotation of the game. I hardly have an inkling of what exactly is in a Conspiracy pack, it doesn't really register in my mind as part of the Magic collectible card game. Same for any cards from any products like Dual Decks, Commander Decks, etc. These products are all well and good for people to play with and have fun, but as they are full of reprints with symbols on them that don't belong to any actual Magic: The Gathering expansion set, they don't fall within the game from the authentic collectors perspective.
I've already addressed this issue in my previous post:
So basically you're saying Modern Masters (and Supplementary Products, as well as some Core Sets) don't feel authentic to some collectors. So it just means some supplementary products aren't for some collectors.
Wizards has its main printers running for 4 sets per year to continuously run the "Main Storyline Authentic Magic Game" you are collecting. As the main printers are always busy, there is no way to ever reprint a past set in its entirely. Wizards caters the "side-printers" to the people you've mentioned - those who just want to play Magic and have fun.
Magic is a very large game, with many players moving in and out of the game. There are bound to be people who missed certain eras of the game and new players that never experience anything before some point. Supplementary products exist to cater to this people.
As mentioned earlier, it's impossible to replicate the experience of the "Main Storyline Authentic Magic Game" from the past - that process is still present and continuous right now in the form of Standard Sets and the printers are all busy with that. To replicate the authenticity of the past would require stopping the present authenticity to cater to that, both logistics-wise and flavor-wise (I, for one would be quite confused if we were supposedly on Zendikar and Mirrodin at the same time.) In fact, if anything, even a full direct reprint wouldn't feel real - what are we doing on Mirrodin when it's supposed to be New Phyrexia now? Okay, perhaps re-living the authenticity then wouldn't feel bad, but it's jarring since it's happening alongside the present events and we already know the results.
You are already collecting what you deem as the "Authentic Collector's Magic", which consists of the sets that rotate through Standard. You also said:
Interestingly enough, I build my collection exclusively via opening packs. I do not buy singles. It doesn't make sense to me to display a cool card in a binder which I paid someone else to rummage through packs to get for me. Also, you cannot technically buy cards brand new unless you buy packs.
In addition to investing in sealed product (the origin of my username here), I purchase a modest number of boxes of each set to open, sort, and keep indefinitely simply in the interest of collecting the cards. It was a no brainer that any collection I would build would have to be made up entirely of cards I pulled from packs myself.
So you are a collector that determines your "Authenticity" of your collection through the "Now": Cards must be relevant to the current storyline and opened new from booster packs.
Supplementary Products don't serve this purpose - they exist either for play (Planechase/Archenemy/Conspiracy) or reprints for the sake of reprints (Modern Masters). There has never been a supplementary product catered to "the present/now" because that's what the main printers are doing. No Supplementary Product enters Standard, which is the benchmark of what you determine to collect.
Magic may be a Collectible Card Game, but that doesn't mean every product printed by Magic has to be "Collectible", the same way not every card printed will be "Playable".
No it doesn't have to be about "Now." It just has to be cards that I've opened from packs myself that belong to the original, core Magic: The Gathering game. Core sets and expansions. And beyond 9th Edition even the core sets don't feel totally authentic to me, as they took on black borders and began reprinting cards like Phage, which did not belong in core sets. But the core set is over now, and that makes sense.
When I first began my current collection last year, I started with boxes like Legions, Scourge and Planeshift, and then moved onto the more current stuff.
Anyways, you say that not every product has to be collectible. I agree. I wasn't saying they shouldn't have printed Modern Masters. I was just saying that those cards are reprints with an expansion symbol on them that doesn't belong to any set from the Magic: The Gathering game, so you're made very aware all the time that you're holding a reprint-for-the-sake-of-easy-accessibiliy card in your hand, rather than one that came from a set that Wizards printed to continue the lineage of the game.
I am wondering how you view extra printings of a set? It seems that by your standards, you should only seek out the first print run of a set. As any other print runs are just printing for the sake of making it more easy to access. Possibly you should seek out the play test cards. As once they are put into a set that is just making it easy for people outside of R&D easier to access.
OP, it feels like you've been ignoring a certain common element in responses to you, and it's starting to seem intentional. Could you directly address it?
1) Do you really believe that there is some objective, universal definition of a Magic: the Gathering set - one that is completely independent of every human, including the creators and current publishers?
2) Alternately, if you believe the definition is subjective, do you believe that you are a higher authority on that definition?
I just realized that this thought process reminds me of interactions I'd have when I would converse with a person who has autism. I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to imply that autism is at play here, nor do I mean that in any offense, and I don't think there's anything really wrong with that. Some people are just really particular about how certain things make sense to them (autistic and non-autistic), and I feel no need to change that. While my reprint of a noble hierarch is not "real" in terms of it being the original, it's still "real" in terms of functionality, monetary value, legality, and material. A good majority of people will find authenticity in the latter values I mentioned, but knowing how my autistic friend who has a hard time grasping the concept of the overall forest (functionality) rather than focusing on the trees (literalness), I understand that there are different ways to look at things. He may have a difficult understanding other points of view, but it's not in my authority to make him understand the concepts of the world's views as well as my own.
I was thinking that English might be a second or third language as they possibly are confused on the weight of the words they choose. There are many people on here who are in that boat but usually you could never tell as they do a good enough job. Sometimes write it even better than a lot of people who grew up with English only. Though your idea seems even more possible.
I agree with you. Mordern masters cards are *There's no other way to say this* stupid. If you want good modern cards don't buy modern masters. Sure, there's Lhugoyfs and Elderazi but ther is is also Endrek Sahn, master breeder. And what's worse than bad mordern cards? Fake mordern cards.Unfortunately, unless WOTC legalizes token proxies for organized tournaments, were stuck with this turd.
I was just saying that those cards are reprints with an expansion symbol on them that doesn't belong to any set from the Magic: The Gathering game...
Why do you keep repeating this as fact? Ample reasons why this is not a fact have been given, though I notice that you don't respond to them. Why do you think your definition is more factual than the one that the IP holder and manager of the game has printed?
I have clarified many times that when I say "set" I am speaking within the context of the Magic: The Gathering collectible card game which traditionally consisted of core sets and expansions, the former of which would provide a sort of universal core to the game, and the latter of which would expand the game. Of course Modern Masters is a "set" from a technical standpoint. I can't believe so many readers have been taking my assertions on this literal technical level even when I am sure you know very well what I am saying.
For years, they came out with a core set in the summer, and a three block set during the year. This was Magic: The Gathering. Now they're going to be doing four expansions per year and no core set, but that four-set-per-year core of the game is not changing, and any supplemental products or collections of reprints that come out alongside those four sets do not belong to the heart and soul of the game from a true collector's perspective because naturally any supplements or collections of reprints are only there for the player base and were printed For The Sole Purpose of undermining the collectibility of the game by saying "this game is for play only, it doesn't matter what expansion symbol is on your card, it doesn't matter how many times we reprint it, here you go, have fun."
Having a print run of a set run longer than the first print run is a legitimate thing to do. It's like having multiple 1st Edition printings of a book. If the book doesn't change, you're just expanding the volume, not releasing a new version. 2nd Edition would undergo edits, etc, and would be different. And a cheap paperback copy of an old classic from the 19th century allows you to read the story, but does not give you a copy of the book from a collector's perspective. Same thing here.
So, my definition for "set" comes from the long precedent set by Wizards of the Coast in the development and expansion of MTG, having a new expansion block each year which expands the game with original printings of new cards. In recent years there were several sets that had many very popular cards, so as the demand for them became greater than the amount readily available in circulation, Wizards decided to completely abandon the collectible side of the game and just print more of those cards with a fake expansion symbol on them. In the long run the price difference between cards from Zendikar and their Modern Masters counterparts very well might look like the Legends/Chronicles price difference.
It's like if Apple said "oh, are you guys all wanting to buy a thousand shares of Apple stock but you're too late because it costs too much now? Here, here's a thousand shares that I'll sell you for five dollars each." Now the stock market is no longer what it once was, the very essence of how it works from the investors perspective is turned upside down, nothing means anything anymore. In Magic, from the collector's perspective, people with Modern Masters cards have those five dollar shares. But it works out for everybody because in this case, the Modern Masters fans didn't actually want valuable shares, they really just wanted to be able to pretend that they have one thousand Apple shares, and now they technically do.
Even if you disagree with me, I hope you can begin to understand more how I see things now. And remember, I only came in here to express my view and find out if anyone else feels the same way. I did not say in my original post "anyone who likes Modern Masters cards is an idiot."
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Do you feel Judge Foils are not real cards? I am wondering because they are obviously not the first printing. Not even in a set. Yet there are many that are far more expensive and collectable than the original printing. Which seems to be another hole in your reasoning.
Modern Masters is a real set. Its cards are real cards. It just isn't the set you want, or the cards you want. You get to choose to play with, or purchase, whatever you want. It's just silly to claim that "I don't want this" == "This isn't real".
Again, you are using the terms "legitimate" and "real" in a way that is divorced from how everyone else here uses those terms.
Let me ask you this: what specific action would you like to see taken?
No action is required. Modern Masters cards will never be seen as collectible in the same way the original printings are, so my community, the community that recognizes that obtaining a card via a reprint-only-for-the-sake-of-making-coveted-cards-easily-accessible "expansion" set is not really the same as actually having those cards in the context of the collectible Magic: The Gathering game, will keep alive the true collectible aspect of the game, while those who like Modern Masters can enjoy their legal, sanctioned proxies.
I was just curious if anyone else on this board happened to be from that community.
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
People are not really objecting to your desire to collect a specific subset of Magic cards. There are people who collect exclusively foils. There are people who collect exclusively Mulldrifters. There are people who only collect cards with art by Rebecca Guay. That is fine. The thing that people are objecting to is your claim that the particular subset of collection that you have chosen is in some way objectively better, more real, or more authentic than others.
You are, you so are. You nitpicking about something being done that was done before in different way and how the original implementation was better. And while people would agree on the price and very limited distribution isnt good. But stating core sets prior to M10 add to/continue Magics flavor it untterly false. The core sets prior to M10 did nothing to continuity of any of the cards in those set. Your essentially say that Arcanis, the Omnipotent from the duel deck isnt really a card because that version wasn't printed in an expansion or core set. Yet its a reprint of a card from Onslaught exactly like its 10 edition printing, which you state has more legitimacy. A reprint of Emrakul is no less legitimate the one from Zendikar, that applies to any reprint period. And that is why you are being a hipster. I enjoy the irony of you thinking that someone who owns a FtV Shivan Dragon doesnt have a real Shivan Dragon because it wasnt released in an expansion or core-set despite that version specifically being a collectors item.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
The actual function is the same. We are able to experience and enjoy these stories, just like someone who owns the "original". It expands the fandom, and allows our hobbies to continue to grow. For someone to look at my bookshelf and claim I am not a collector because of the many reprints is just elitism. For them to look at my bookshelf and say "these aren't books" is just silly.
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As Yatsufusa stated earlier, everyone had a jumping-on point into the game. Very few of us can claim that we started with Alpha. For me, the jumping-on point was Ice Age. I am proud of that fact, and prefer to use Ice Age versions of cards like Counterspell,Brainstorm, and Swords to Plowshares. Some people like to point out that these aren't the originals, or the most valuable, or the best looking versions. But that is my preference.
And for some people, their jumping on point will be MM15. They may prioritize their own experiences ("this was the first rare I ever cracked!") over having the "original" version.
Some people may also prioritize having the best-looking version of a card. MM15 Cryptic Command has the much-easier-to-read bulleted text. MM15 Vendilion Clique has (in my opinion) vastly superior art to the original. Am I wrong for preferring the newer version? I can't be wrong, because it's a personal choice.
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Wow, this is longer than I anticipated. One more point, and I will shut up. I can take the OP's argument even further, by comparing it to playmats. I am very proud of the several Game Day playmats that I have won. It is a badge of honor that says, "I earned this". But there were several GD mats that I was not able to win. I could have bought them from eBay, but it wouldn't have been the same. I wouldn't really have been the champion. I would just have payed someone else to get it for me, like buying a trophy and claiming I won it.
So, the only way to really collect a card is to crack it from a pack. If you just payed someone else for that card, did you really earn it?
Emphasis mine.
In part because it's main demographic are college-aged males who aren't really known for having the spare change to throw away on $300-$waytoomuch on a deck. There should still be some barrier to entry for higher-level play, as that keeps the game and it's market healthy, but it doesn't need to be as high as it is, especially for something as popular as modern. Legacy and Vintage will maintain their high prices due to the reserve list, so those formats will likely always remain open mostly to only the more dedicated players and collectors. There's no need for every format to be like that, though. It isn't as though modern masters is flooding the market with staples and crashing all their secondary market value, it's just lowering it a bit and keeping the supply up so the format has healthy room to grow.
1) With the exception of the 90's comic bubble, reprint comics and books are not presented as collectable in any way, though as was said a collectable is what you think it is.
2) Reprinted cards are not printed in the VAST quantities that books are reprinted. Comics are a bit different- in the 90's the market was so flooded with garbage that it killed the market and it has never really recovered. It would be like if MM2015 was printed and reprinted in the quantities of popular block set, and it happened every year.
3) No one is saying that he can't collect whatever he wants, it is his assertions that come cards are objectively not real cards from a collectibility standpoint. Beanie Babies may be garbage from a monetary standpoint now, but they are still collectables for a lot of people.
Again, if he clarifies that this is his opinion and is entirely subjective, then fine...argument over since you cannot argue an opinion.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
So 8th does reprint old cards, but it creates a new "game" in doing so - you could play it with the older versions, but that would be like playing a game of chess using pieces from a bunch of other boardgames. But Modern existed as a complete game before MM2 was released. MM2 is more like a set of replacement pieces rather than creating a new format.
What makes people find this difficult to understand is the existence of MM2 limited. You could argue that it's secondary to the goal of providing replacement parts, but there's still a complete game that can be played using nothing but MM2 boosters and basic lands.
I never said that I considered Arcanis from 10th Edition to be the same as Arcanis from Onslaught. I got a box of 10th Edition when it came out, and I had a lot of fun opening those packs, and it felt cool to have an Arcanis in the new card frame with that gold X symbol on it, but it didn't feel to me like an authentic Arcanis. I wouldn't have said to somebody "I got Arcanis" or "I have Arcanis" in the same way I would have if I had the Onslaught card. I felt like Arcanis was an Onslaught card and I had obtained a reprint of it that could be used in games but was by no means the same as the Onslaught card in the context of the collectible side of the game. I mentioned Phage as another example earlier, and clarified that I am being consistent with this. Furthermore, the fact that 10th Edition had a black border felt weird to me as well.. the white borders for previous core sets set them apart from the expansions, so even if there was a reprint from an expansion it was very clear that this one belonged in the core set game and was not as serious a card from a collectors perspective.
However, Arcanis from 10th Edition is a more collectible piece from my perspective than Arcanis from a dual deck, and 0evil_overlord0 more or less explained why.
Interestingly enough, I build my collection exclusively via opening packs. I do not buy singles. It doesn't make sense to me to display a cool card in a binder which I paid someone else to rummage through packs to get for me. Also, you cannot technically buy cards brand new unless you buy packs.
In addition to investing in sealed product (the origin of my username here), I purchase a modest number of boxes of each set to open, sort, and keep indefinitely simply in the interest of collecting the cards. It was a no brainer that any collection I would build would have to be made up entirely of cards I pulled from packs myself.
Edit: Lastly, people keep asking how I feel about Conspiracy, Planechase, etc. I don't invest in or collect anything that doesn't belong to the standard rotation of the game. I hardly have an inkling of what exactly is in a Conspiracy pack, it doesn't really register in my mind as part of the Magic collectible card game. Same for any cards from any products like Dual Decks, Commander Decks, etc. These products are all well and good for people to play with and have fun, but as they are full of reprints with symbols on them that don't belong to any actual Magic: The Gathering expansion set, they don't fall within the game from the authentic collectors perspective.
I've already addressed this issue in my previous post:
Wizards has its main printers running for 4 sets per year to continuously run the "Main Storyline Authentic Magic Game" you are collecting. As the main printers are always busy, there is no way to ever reprint a past set in its entirely. Wizards caters the "side-printers" to the people you've mentioned - those who just want to play Magic and have fun.
Magic is a very large game, with many players moving in and out of the game. There are bound to be people who missed certain eras of the game and new players that never experience anything before some point. Supplementary products exist to cater to this people.
As mentioned earlier, it's impossible to replicate the experience of the "Main Storyline Authentic Magic Game" from the past - that process is still present and continuous right now in the form of Standard Sets and the printers are all busy with that. To replicate the authenticity of the past would require stopping the present authenticity to cater to that, both logistics-wise and flavor-wise (I, for one would be quite confused if we were supposedly on Zendikar and Mirrodin at the same time.) In fact, if anything, even a full direct reprint wouldn't feel real - what are we doing on Mirrodin when it's supposed to be New Phyrexia now? Okay, perhaps re-living the authenticity then wouldn't feel bad, but it's jarring since it's happening alongside the present events and we already know the results.
You are already collecting what you deem as the "Authentic Collector's Magic", which consists of the sets that rotate through Standard. You also said:
So you are a collector that determines your "Authenticity" of your collection through the "Now": Cards must be relevant to the current storyline and opened new from booster packs.
Supplementary Products don't serve this purpose - they exist either for play (Planechase/Archenemy/Conspiracy) or reprints for the sake of reprints (Modern Masters). There has never been a supplementary product catered to "the present/now" because that's what the main printers are doing. No Supplementary Product enters Standard, which is the benchmark of what you determine to collect.
Magic may be a Collectible Card Game, but that doesn't mean every product printed by Magic has to be "Collectible", the same way not every card printed will be "Playable".
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
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No it doesn't have to be about "Now." It just has to be cards that I've opened from packs myself that belong to the original, core Magic: The Gathering game. Core sets and expansions. And beyond 9th Edition even the core sets don't feel totally authentic to me, as they took on black borders and began reprinting cards like Phage, which did not belong in core sets. But the core set is over now, and that makes sense.
When I first began my current collection last year, I started with boxes like Legions, Scourge and Planeshift, and then moved onto the more current stuff.
Anyways, you say that not every product has to be collectible. I agree. I wasn't saying they shouldn't have printed Modern Masters. I was just saying that those cards are reprints with an expansion symbol on them that doesn't belong to any set from the Magic: The Gathering game, so you're made very aware all the time that you're holding a reprint-for-the-sake-of-easy-accessibiliy card in your hand, rather than one that came from a set that Wizards printed to continue the lineage of the game.
1) Do you really believe that there is some objective, universal definition of a Magic: the Gathering set - one that is completely independent of every human, including the creators and current publishers?
2) Alternately, if you believe the definition is subjective, do you believe that you are a higher authority on that definition?
I was thinking that English might be a second or third language as they possibly are confused on the weight of the words they choose. There are many people on here who are in that boat but usually you could never tell as they do a good enough job. Sometimes write it even better than a lot of people who grew up with English only. Though your idea seems even more possible.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
For years, they came out with a core set in the summer, and a three block set during the year. This was Magic: The Gathering. Now they're going to be doing four expansions per year and no core set, but that four-set-per-year core of the game is not changing, and any supplemental products or collections of reprints that come out alongside those four sets do not belong to the heart and soul of the game from a true collector's perspective because naturally any supplements or collections of reprints are only there for the player base and were printed For The Sole Purpose of undermining the collectibility of the game by saying "this game is for play only, it doesn't matter what expansion symbol is on your card, it doesn't matter how many times we reprint it, here you go, have fun."
Having a print run of a set run longer than the first print run is a legitimate thing to do. It's like having multiple 1st Edition printings of a book. If the book doesn't change, you're just expanding the volume, not releasing a new version. 2nd Edition would undergo edits, etc, and would be different. And a cheap paperback copy of an old classic from the 19th century allows you to read the story, but does not give you a copy of the book from a collector's perspective. Same thing here.
So, my definition for "set" comes from the long precedent set by Wizards of the Coast in the development and expansion of MTG, having a new expansion block each year which expands the game with original printings of new cards. In recent years there were several sets that had many very popular cards, so as the demand for them became greater than the amount readily available in circulation, Wizards decided to completely abandon the collectible side of the game and just print more of those cards with a fake expansion symbol on them. In the long run the price difference between cards from Zendikar and their Modern Masters counterparts very well might look like the Legends/Chronicles price difference.
It's like if Apple said "oh, are you guys all wanting to buy a thousand shares of Apple stock but you're too late because it costs too much now? Here, here's a thousand shares that I'll sell you for five dollars each." Now the stock market is no longer what it once was, the very essence of how it works from the investors perspective is turned upside down, nothing means anything anymore. In Magic, from the collector's perspective, people with Modern Masters cards have those five dollar shares. But it works out for everybody because in this case, the Modern Masters fans didn't actually want valuable shares, they really just wanted to be able to pretend that they have one thousand Apple shares, and now they technically do.
Even if you disagree with me, I hope you can begin to understand more how I see things now. And remember, I only came in here to express my view and find out if anyone else feels the same way. I did not say in my original post "anyone who likes Modern Masters cards is an idiot."