I feel that Modern Masters cards are not real, authentic Magic cards. To reprint cards in that manner is to completely undermine a very central tenet of the nature of a collectible card game like Magic. I have no desire to get a single booster of Modern Masters and would not feel the slightest bit of awe or excitement over the cards inside no matter what I pulled. If I got something really "good" I would say "that's great, if only it were the real one from Zendikar, etc."
Does anybody else feel this way? I'm guessing there aren't many of you based on the prices of Modern Masters packs, but I would love to know if there are others out there who see this the same way I do. To me the cards in a Modern Masters pack don't even look or feel like real Magic cards. Their expansion symbol does not belong to any of the official MTG expansions, they are not real cards from a real expansion.
If Wizards wanted to do this properly, they should have opened product from sets ranging from 8th Edition to Alara Reborn (or Magic 2012 in the case of MM2015), and repackaged them in "Modern Masters" packs, allowing people to actually purchase a "best of" compilation via booster packs. Now that would be cool. But what they've done is just create fake cards and say that they are the same as the real ones from the actual sets.
I really hope there's at least one other person who feels the same way I do.
I agree. Reprinting in itself is unfun in my opinion.
As for constructed magic at competetive/GPs/PTs though, it would in my opinion be a circus if there is a real shortage of cards that are legal.
They could fix this though, with allowing proxies(produced by wotc) to be rented out for a fee.
Then again, this would indirectly encourage play(test)ing with proxies which I understand wotc wouldn't be fond of.
Repronts are inevitable if you want to expend the playerbase, especially with Modern. The format was created with the idea of having an eternal format for which WotC could reprint cards without taking down the <snip> reserve list.
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I'm trying to understand, but the implied acceptance of 8th edition or M12 cards just has me confused.
Reprints have been part of the game since long before you or I started playing.
What do you mean the implied acceptance?
It's okay to reprint some cards in new expansions, but they are within a context of a new set whose majority is made up of brand new cards. Modern Masters is not an MTG expansion. It is a collection of reprints for the sake of reprints.
Repronts are inevitable if you want to expend the playerbase, especially with Modern. The format was created with the idea of having an eternal format for which WotC could reprint cards without taking down the fu***** reserve list.
The player base can be expanded by creating new expansions in the typical manner. There aren't enough Onslaught fetchlands out there for players who want them? Reprint them in Khans twelve years after the original printings. That's fine. That works. But to just say "oh okay here, we'll make you more fetchlands with a made up expansion symbol on them that isn't actually an expansion.... what kind of person would feel like they have a legitimate Polluted Delta or Wooded Foothills?
Repronts are inevitable if you want to expend the playerbase, especially with Modern. The format was created with the idea of having an eternal format for which WotC could reprint cards without taking down the fu***** reserve list.
The player base can be expanded by creating new expansions in the typical manner. There aren't enough Onslaught fetchlands out there for players who want them? Reprint them in Khans twelve years after the original printings. That's fine. That works. But to just say "oh okay here, we'll make you more fetchlands with a made up expansion symbol on them that isn't actually an expansion.... what kind of person would feel like they have a legitimate Polluted Delta or Wooded Foothills?
Me. Go play yu-gi-oh and tell me how special your LOB 1st Edition foil Monster Reborn is since it was almost immediatly put into a pre-con as a non foil common. And then nearly every pre-con after, until they banned it or something.
But I was pleased with the existence of Modern Masters if for no other reason than it gave me access to new art for Vendilion Clique, one of my favorite cards of all time.
I play EDH, and I enjoy the Commander products. They are "real cards", from a supplemental product rather than an expansion. I fail to see why that makes them not real?
Repronts are inevitable if you want to expend the playerbase, especially with Modern. The format was created with the idea of having an eternal format for which WotC could reprint cards without taking down the fu***** reserve list.
The player base can be expanded by creating new expansions in the typical manner. There aren't enough Onslaught fetchlands out there for players who want them? Reprint them in Khans twelve years after the original printings. That's fine. That works. But to just say "oh okay here, we'll make you more fetchlands with a made up expansion symbol on them that isn't actually an expansion.... what kind of person would feel like they have a legitimate Polluted Delta or Wooded Foothills?
Just curious, would you feel the same if these cards were in a supplemental product like Commander decks, From the Vaults, or Duel decks? Also, is is the thought of having cards tied to the story/block make the cards feel more legitimate to you?
In a way I understand you, but my wallet tends to disagree. I'd always prefer the original over the reprint, but cost is always the biggest factor for me when acquiring a card. On top of that, I just don't like the way new cards feel...that almost waxy/glossy feel.
I understand where you are coming from but Modern Masters isn't entirely reprint for reprint sake. If it were they would not have put time and resources into making it a viable draft format.
The cards are as real as any other. Are you going to accuse someone of cheating if they use them? Will you refuse to play with them?
Repronts are inevitable if you want to expend the playerbase, especially with Modern. The format was created with the idea of having an eternal format for which WotC could reprint cards without taking down the fu***** reserve list.
The player base can be expanded by creating new expansions in the typical manner. There aren't enough Onslaught fetchlands out there for players who want them? Reprint them in Khans twelve years after the original printings. That's fine. That works. But to just say "oh okay here, we'll make you more fetchlands with a made up expansion symbol on them that isn't actually an expansion.... what kind of person would feel like they have a legitimate Polluted Delta or Wooded Foothills?
Just curious, would you feel the same if these cards were in a supplemental product like Commander decks, From the Vaults, or Duel decks? Also, is is the thought of having cards tied to the story/block make the cards feel more legitimate to you?
In a way I understand you, but my wallet tends to disagree. I'd always prefer the original over the reprint, but cost is always the biggest factor for me when acquiring a card. On top of that, I just don't like the way new cards feel...that almost waxy/glossy feel.
Absolutely. Commander, From the Vaults, Duel Decks, etc, have never looked like real cards to me. I don't mind the concept of a product like the dual decks, as they give people the ability to buy a pair of decks to play against each other, and it makes sense that they have their own expansion symbol for each product. That's more tolerable than what they are doing with Modern Masters because they have clearly separated it from the game at large by giving a single pair of decks their own expansion symbol. Modern Masters is trying to be a legitimate set, but it's just a collection of reprints. It doesn't have its own story, it's not an expansion of Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, etc. Whereas Zendikar, Ravnica, etc, are.
I understand where you are coming from but Modern Masters isn't entirely reprint for reprint sake. If it were they would not have put time and resources into making it a viable draft format.
The cards are as real as any other. Are you going to accuse someone of cheating if they use them? Will you refuse to play with them?
If the cards are legal they're legal, I would never argue against that in any sanctioned event. But legal and real within the context of a collectible game like Magic are two different things. Just because they've said that you can play a Modern Masters 2015 Cryptic Command in a tournament doesn't mean you have an actual copy of the card, which is a Lorwyn card.
See, in the case of the Khans fetches, it can make sense to say that those fetches are both Onslaught cards and Khans cards. Khans is an actual expansion, and they included those cards again within that set, along with many new ones. So they are now Khans cards as well as Onslaught cards, but they are still more legitimate from a collectors perspective in their Onslaught printings.
But to say "this card is both a Lorwyn card and a Modern Masters 2015 card" doesn't make sense. What is MM 2015? It's not an expansion. It's a collection of cards from other sets, printed again with a made up symbol on them that doesn't belong to any MTG expansion.
I totally dislike playing for the sake of collecting. In my ideal world, MTG decks would top out in value around $10-$15 at most, enabling just about anyone who wanted to to play... I realize that's unlikely to happen, but it makes me sad to see the high barrier to entry for people who might otherwise enjoy Legacy, Vintage, etc.
That being said, I totally think collectors should have their own thing as well. In my ideal world, card reprinting would be common, but they would never reuse the same art twice. Once a card was printed, you'd never have the chance to get that exact card again or anything that looked like it, however you could always get a reprint with different art if the only reason you wanted the card was to play with it. In that vein, I think high value collectables like GP Foils, Player Rewards Cards, Judge foils, etc. Are great and should continue.
I feel that collectors and players overlap, but there should be space for both: no-one should be shut out of a format because something wasn't reprinted, but one should feel that every card one owns is, to some degree, "special".
I feel that Modern Masters cards are not real, authentic Magic cards. To reprint cards in that manner is to completely undermine a very central tenet of the nature of a collectible card game like Magic. I have no desire to get a single booster of Modern Masters and would not feel the slightest bit of awe or excitement over the cards inside no matter what I pulled. If I got something really "good" I would say "that's great, if only it were the real one from Zendikar, etc."
Does anybody else feel this way? I'm guessing there aren't many of you based on the prices of Modern Masters packs, but I would love to know if there are others out there who see this the same way I do. To me the cards in a Modern Masters pack don't even look or feel like real Magic cards. Their expansion symbol does not belong to any of the official MTG expansions, they are not real cards from a real expansion.
If Wizards wanted to do this properly, they should have opened product from sets ranging from 8th Edition to Alara Reborn (or Magic 2012 in the case of MM2015), and repackaged them in "Modern Masters" packs, allowing people to actually purchase a "best of" compilation via booster packs. Now that would be cool. But what they've done is just create fake cards and say that they are the same as the real ones from the actual sets.
I really hope there's at least one other person who feels the same way I do.
I love people like you, they buy my first printing cards for $$ so I can turn around and buy reprints for $.
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I feel that Modern Masters cards are not real, authentic Magic cards. To reprint cards in that manner is to completely undermine a very central tenet of the nature of a collectible card game like Magic. I have no desire to get a single booster of Modern Masters and would not feel the slightest bit of awe or excitement over the cards inside no matter what I pulled. If I got something really "good" I would say "that's great, if only it were the real one from Zendikar, etc."
Does anybody else feel this way? I'm guessing there aren't many of you based on the prices of Modern Masters packs, but I would love to know if there are others out there who see this the same way I do. To me the cards in a Modern Masters pack don't even look or feel like real Magic cards. Their expansion symbol does not belong to any of the official MTG expansions, they are not real cards from a real expansion.
If Wizards wanted to do this properly, they should have opened product from sets ranging from 8th Edition to Alara Reborn (or Magic 2012 in the case of MM2015), and repackaged them in "Modern Masters" packs, allowing people to actually purchase a "best of" compilation via booster packs. Now that would be cool. But what they've done is just create fake cards and say that they are the same as the real ones from the actual sets.
I really hope there's at least one other person who feels the same way I do.
I love people like you, they buy my first printing cards for $$ so I can turn around and buy reprints for $.
That works out well for you and for the collector. The collector is not overpaying you. You simply don't value what the original printing offers in terms of collectibility, so it sounds like a win win situation.
I totally dislike playing for the sake of collecting. In my ideal world, MTG decks would top out in value around $10-$15 at most, enabling just about anyone who wanted to to play... I realize that's unlikely to happen, but it makes me sad to see the high barrier to entry for people who might otherwise enjoy Legacy, Vintage, etc.
That being said, I totally think collectors should have their own thing as well. In my ideal world, card reprinting would be common, but they would never reuse the same art twice. Once a card was printed, you'd never have the chance to get that exact card again or anything that looked like it, however you could always get a reprint with different art if the only reason you wanted the card was to play with it. In that vein, I think high value collectables like GP Foils, Player Rewards Cards, Judge foils, etc. Are great and should continue.
I feel that collectors and players overlap, but there should be space for both: no-one should be shut out of a format because something wasn't reprinted, but one should feel that every card one owns is, to some degree, "special".
There is no cost barrier for new players. Intro packs cost $15 and come with two boosters each. My wife and I have had loads of fun with just five or ten intro packs from sets from the last couple years. Even just a single pair of intro packs can be a game that doesn't grow old for a very long time.
I'm trying to understand, but the implied acceptance of 8th edition or M12 cards just has me confused.
Reprints have been part of the game since long before you or I started playing.
What do you mean the implied acceptance?
It's okay to reprint some cards in new expansions, but they are within a context of a new set whose majority is made up of brand new cards. Modern Masters is not an MTG expansion. It is a collection of reprints for the sake of reprints.
You realize that not only 8th Edition, but every core set from Unlimited to 10th Edition, was all reprints, right?
In fact, the only pre-M10 core set that would even appear to come close to not being "reprints for the sake of reprints" (as you term it) would have been 7th Edition (which amusingly dodges the scope of Modern Masters, but we'll stay on point here), since at least that one had all new art.
I can sympathize with you in that I'd rather have the original on almost any card I play (with allowance for the occasional promo or amazing art bucking that trend), but the only thing that is different from a normal set here is that MM2015 doesn't cycle through standard (and even that is less than an indicator than some would think, as evidenced by Portal, Portal 2, Portal: Three Kingdoms, and Conspiracy -- For the sake of argument, I'm ignoring box sets such as commander, but for Legacy players such as myself, those are relevant as well).
MTG needs reprints, and we are free to preferentially seek out originals as we see fit.
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I'm trying to understand, but the implied acceptance of 8th edition or M12 cards just has me confused.
Reprints have been part of the game since long before you or I started playing.
What do you mean the implied acceptance?
It's okay to reprint some cards in new expansions, but they are within a context of a new set whose majority is made up of brand new cards. Modern Masters is not an MTG expansion. It is a collection of reprints for the sake of reprints.
You realize that not only 8th Edition, but every core set from Unlimited to 10th Edition, was all reprints, right?
In fact, the only pre-M10 core set that would even appear to come close to not being "reprints for the sake of reprints" (as you term it) would have been 7th Edition (which amusingly dodges the scope of Modern Masters, but we'll stay on point here), since at least that one had all new art.
I can sympathize with you in that I'd rather have the original on almost any card I play (with allowance for the occasional promo or amazing art bucking that trend), but the only thing that is different from a normal set here is that MM2015 doesn't cycle through standard (and even that is less than an indicator than some would think, as evidenced by Portal, Portal 2, Portal: Three Kingdoms, and Conspiracy -- For the sake of argument, I'm ignoring box sets such as commander, but for Legacy players such as myself, those are relevant as well).
MTG needs reprints, and we are free to preferentially seek out originals as we see fit.
7th Edition happens to be my favorite core set and one of my favorite sets of all time. I got two MTGO redemption boxes of it a few years ago, opened one for binder display, and kept the other one sealed.
Core sets are different from expansions, hence why they're not called expansions, they don't expand the game. It was a perfect way to include reprints in the game because they were all the "core set," just different editions/printings of it.
I totally dislike playing for the sake of collecting. In my ideal world, MTG decks would top out in value around $10-$15 at most, enabling just about anyone who wanted to to play... I realize that's unlikely to happen, but it makes me sad to see the high barrier to entry for people who might otherwise enjoy Legacy, Vintage, etc.
That being said, I totally think collectors should have their own thing as well. In my ideal world, card reprinting would be common, but they would never reuse the same art twice. Once a card was printed, you'd never have the chance to get that exact card again or anything that looked like it, however you could always get a reprint with different art if the only reason you wanted the card was to play with it. In that vein, I think high value collectables like GP Foils, Player Rewards Cards, Judge foils, etc. Are great and should continue.
I feel that collectors and players overlap, but there should be space for both: no-one should be shut out of a format because something wasn't reprinted, but one should feel that every card one owns is, to some degree, "special".
There is no cost barrier for new players. Intro packs cost $15 and come with two boosters each. My wife and I have had loads of fun with just five or ten intro packs from sets from the last couple years. Even just a single pair of intro packs can be a game that doesn't grow old for a very long time.
Which is fine for playing at the kitchen table. When you go to play ina tournament, however, you need to spend a lot more money to make a deck that can be competitive. In Modern, a good chunk of that money is simply for a manabase, but there are a lot of cards that you'll need 4-of that add up quickly. The price barrier isn't a barrier to the game, it's to the game at any serious competitive level: spend the cash, or lose to those who did.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I feel that Modern Masters cards are not real, authentic Magic cards. To reprint cards in that manner is to completely undermine a very central tenet of the nature of a collectible card game like Magic. I have no desire to get a single booster of Modern Masters and would not feel the slightest bit of awe or excitement over the cards inside no matter what I pulled. If I got something really "good" I would say "that's great, if only it were the real one from Zendikar, etc."
Does anybody else feel this way? I'm guessing there aren't many of you based on the prices of Modern Masters packs, but I would love to know if there are others out there who see this the same way I do. To me the cards in a Modern Masters pack don't even look or feel like real Magic cards. Their expansion symbol does not belong to any of the official MTG expansions, they are not real cards from a real expansion.
If Wizards wanted to do this properly, they should have opened product from sets ranging from 8th Edition to Alara Reborn (or Magic 2012 in the case of MM2015), and repackaged them in "Modern Masters" packs, allowing people to actually purchase a "best of" compilation via booster packs. Now that would be cool. But what they've done is just create fake cards and say that they are the same as the real ones from the actual sets.
I really hope there's at least one other person who feels the same way I do.
You mention 8th edition (and likely since they are included in modern, 9th edition and 10th edition) as being okay, and yet, these old core sets were nothing but reprints of cards just like modern masters is. They had their own expansion symbols (8 or 9 or X), which is just as legitimate as the modern masters set symbol or the set symbol from khans. The difference was, those core sets were created to be a set full of reprints for the standard format. Whereas modern masters is a set full of reprints created for the modern format rather than standard. Sure, the gloss of many special set cards is a bit odd or off putting when you see them alongside regular cards, but that's part of how they differentiate those cards for whatever reason, possibly as well to give the originals that added bit of collectability, as often still tends to be the case when cards are reprinted (I know a lot of people that have still preferred the originals over any reprinted versions no matter what the card was.
Other than the look more specifically, its also a way to reprint the cards while leaving the supply of the original version from the original expansion it came in, the same, while increasing the supply of the card in general. If you don't like the look/feel of the new versions of the cards, then don't worry about collecting the set, and play what you do like. The great thing about magic is that it can be a great many things to a great many different people. Which is why we have casual players, EDH/Commander players, Standard players, Modern Players, Legacy Players, and people who just like to play limited and collect cards as the case may be. In this case it sounds like modern masters isn't for you, and you should focus your efforts with the game elsewhere for your collecting or playing needs. The original versions of those cards still exist out there to collect, and the modern masters cards are there for people who may want to collect those versions, or who simply may want to play limited or play the formats in general where those cards are legal. Besides that, you can always just trade the new ones for the older versions likely with a little more added in due to the value difference, so its not like you would have to keep the new cards if you didn't want them, but still wanted to open/draft the set.
Anyhow, just some things to keep in mind. Inevitably reprints are necessary to deal with the continually and fast growing population of players of magic the gathering, to make sure that formats like modern are kept as available to players as possible (supply wise).
I totally dislike playing for the sake of collecting. In my ideal world, MTG decks would top out in value around $10-$15 at most, enabling just about anyone who wanted to to play... I realize that's unlikely to happen, but it makes me sad to see the high barrier to entry for people who might otherwise enjoy Legacy, Vintage, etc.
That being said, I totally think collectors should have their own thing as well. In my ideal world, card reprinting would be common, but they would never reuse the same art twice. Once a card was printed, you'd never have the chance to get that exact card again or anything that looked like it, however you could always get a reprint with different art if the only reason you wanted the card was to play with it. In that vein, I think high value collectables like GP Foils, Player Rewards Cards, Judge foils, etc. Are great and should continue.
I feel that collectors and players overlap, but there should be space for both: no-one should be shut out of a format because something wasn't reprinted, but one should feel that every card one owns is, to some degree, "special".
There is no cost barrier for new players. Intro packs cost $15 and come with two boosters each. My wife and I have had loads of fun with just five or ten intro packs from sets from the last couple years. Even just a single pair of intro packs can be a game that doesn't grow old for a very long time.
Which is fine for playing at the kitchen table. When you go to play ina tournament, however, you need to spend a lot more money to make a deck that can be competitive. In Modern, a good chunk of that money is simply for a manabase, but there are a lot of cards that you'll need 4-of that add up quickly. The price barrier isn't a barrier to the game, it's to the game at any serious competitive level: spend the cash, or lose to those who did.
Well yes, playing professionally should cost money, why not? Comparing it as a game to other games in terms of how games are normally played by people, it is not any more expensive.
I feel that Modern Masters cards are not real, authentic Magic cards. To reprint cards in that manner is to completely undermine a very central tenet of the nature of a collectible card game like Magic. I have no desire to get a single booster of Modern Masters and would not feel the slightest bit of awe or excitement over the cards inside no matter what I pulled. If I got something really "good" I would say "that's great, if only it were the real one from Zendikar, etc."
Does anybody else feel this way? I'm guessing there aren't many of you based on the prices of Modern Masters packs, but I would love to know if there are others out there who see this the same way I do. To me the cards in a Modern Masters pack don't even look or feel like real Magic cards. Their expansion symbol does not belong to any of the official MTG expansions, they are not real cards from a real expansion.
If Wizards wanted to do this properly, they should have opened product from sets ranging from 8th Edition to Alara Reborn (or Magic 2012 in the case of MM2015), and repackaged them in "Modern Masters" packs, allowing people to actually purchase a "best of" compilation via booster packs. Now that would be cool. But what they've done is just create fake cards and say that they are the same as the real ones from the actual sets.
I really hope there's at least one other person who feels the same way I do.
You mention 8th edition (and likely since they are included in modern, 9th edition and 10th edition) as being okay, and yet, these old core sets were nothing but reprints of cards just like modern masters is. They had their own expansion symbols (8 or 9 or X), which is just as legitimate as the modern masters set symbol or the set symbol from khans. The difference was, those core sets were created to be a set full of reprints for the standard format. Whereas modern masters is a set full of reprints created for the modern format rather than standard. Sure, the gloss of many special set cards is a bit odd or off putting when you see them alongside regular cards, but that's part of how they differentiate those cards for whatever reason, possibly as well to give the originals that added bit of collectability, as often still tends to be the case when cards are reprinted (I know a lot of people that have still preferred the originals over any reprinted versions no matter what the card was.
Other than the look more specifically, its also a way to reprint the cards while leaving the supply of the original version from the original expansion it came in, the same, while increasing the supply of the card in general. If you don't like the look/feel of the new versions of the cards, then don't worry about collecting the set, and play what you do like. The great thing about magic is that it can be a great many things to a great many different people. Which is why we have casual players, EDH/Commander players, Standard players, Modern Players, Legacy Players, and people who just like to play limited and collect cards as the case may be. In this case it sounds like modern masters isn't for you, and you should focus your efforts with the game elsewhere for your collecting or playing needs. The original versions of those cards still exist out there to collect, and the modern masters cards are there for people who may want to collect those versions, or who simply may want to play limited or play the formats in general where those cards are legal. Besides that, you can always just trade the new ones for the older versions likely with a little more added in due to the value difference, so its not like you would have to keep the new cards if you didn't want them, but still wanted to open/draft the set.
Anyhow, just some things to keep in mind. Inevitably reprints are necessary to deal with the continually and fast growing population of players of magic the gathering, to make sure that formats like modern are kept as available to players as possible (supply wise).
Those core sets make sense to be made up of reprints, they are "the" game, the core set. "Magic, Edition 1, Edition 2, Edition 3, etc." Reprinting cards makes sense in that context. Then there are expansions which expand the game. What is Modern Masters? It doesn't fall into either of those categories, it is a false set of reprints that doesn't fit anywhere in the scheme of the game.
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Does anybody else feel this way? I'm guessing there aren't many of you based on the prices of Modern Masters packs, but I would love to know if there are others out there who see this the same way I do. To me the cards in a Modern Masters pack don't even look or feel like real Magic cards. Their expansion symbol does not belong to any of the official MTG expansions, they are not real cards from a real expansion.
If Wizards wanted to do this properly, they should have opened product from sets ranging from 8th Edition to Alara Reborn (or Magic 2012 in the case of MM2015), and repackaged them in "Modern Masters" packs, allowing people to actually purchase a "best of" compilation via booster packs. Now that would be cool. But what they've done is just create fake cards and say that they are the same as the real ones from the actual sets.
I really hope there's at least one other person who feels the same way I do.
As for constructed magic at competetive/GPs/PTs though, it would in my opinion be a circus if there is a real shortage of cards that are legal.
They could fix this though, with allowing proxies(produced by wotc) to be rented out for a fee.
Then again, this would indirectly encourage play(test)ing with proxies which I understand wotc wouldn't be fond of.
Limited is the only way ?
Reprints have been part of the game since long before you or I started playing.
Please don't evade the censor. The site will automatically censor words for you. - cryogen
What do you mean the implied acceptance?
It's okay to reprint some cards in new expansions, but they are within a context of a new set whose majority is made up of brand new cards. Modern Masters is not an MTG expansion. It is a collection of reprints for the sake of reprints.
The player base can be expanded by creating new expansions in the typical manner. There aren't enough Onslaught fetchlands out there for players who want them? Reprint them in Khans twelve years after the original printings. That's fine. That works. But to just say "oh okay here, we'll make you more fetchlands with a made up expansion symbol on them that isn't actually an expansion.... what kind of person would feel like they have a legitimate Polluted Delta or Wooded Foothills?
Okay, I'll print you a playset of fetchlands with an image of an iPhone as the expansion symbol. I'll give all 20 cards to you for only $100.
Me. Go play yu-gi-oh and tell me how special your LOB 1st Edition foil Monster Reborn is since it was almost immediatly put into a pre-con as a non foil common. And then nearly every pre-con after, until they banned it or something.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
But I was pleased with the existence of Modern Masters if for no other reason than it gave me access to new art for Vendilion Clique, one of my favorite cards of all time.
I play EDH, and I enjoy the Commander products. They are "real cards", from a supplemental product rather than an expansion. I fail to see why that makes them not real?
Just curious, would you feel the same if these cards were in a supplemental product like Commander decks, From the Vaults, or Duel decks? Also, is is the thought of having cards tied to the story/block make the cards feel more legitimate to you?
In a way I understand you, but my wallet tends to disagree. I'd always prefer the original over the reprint, but cost is always the biggest factor for me when acquiring a card. On top of that, I just don't like the way new cards feel...that almost waxy/glossy feel.
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Can I play at MTG events with them?
If so, print away!
The cards are as real as any other. Are you going to accuse someone of cheating if they use them? Will you refuse to play with them?
Absolutely. Commander, From the Vaults, Duel Decks, etc, have never looked like real cards to me. I don't mind the concept of a product like the dual decks, as they give people the ability to buy a pair of decks to play against each other, and it makes sense that they have their own expansion symbol for each product. That's more tolerable than what they are doing with Modern Masters because they have clearly separated it from the game at large by giving a single pair of decks their own expansion symbol. Modern Masters is trying to be a legitimate set, but it's just a collection of reprints. It doesn't have its own story, it's not an expansion of Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, etc. Whereas Zendikar, Ravnica, etc, are.
If the cards are legal they're legal, I would never argue against that in any sanctioned event. But legal and real within the context of a collectible game like Magic are two different things. Just because they've said that you can play a Modern Masters 2015 Cryptic Command in a tournament doesn't mean you have an actual copy of the card, which is a Lorwyn card.
See, in the case of the Khans fetches, it can make sense to say that those fetches are both Onslaught cards and Khans cards. Khans is an actual expansion, and they included those cards again within that set, along with many new ones. So they are now Khans cards as well as Onslaught cards, but they are still more legitimate from a collectors perspective in their Onslaught printings.
But to say "this card is both a Lorwyn card and a Modern Masters 2015 card" doesn't make sense. What is MM 2015? It's not an expansion. It's a collection of cards from other sets, printed again with a made up symbol on them that doesn't belong to any MTG expansion.
I totally dislike playing for the sake of collecting. In my ideal world, MTG decks would top out in value around $10-$15 at most, enabling just about anyone who wanted to to play... I realize that's unlikely to happen, but it makes me sad to see the high barrier to entry for people who might otherwise enjoy Legacy, Vintage, etc.
That being said, I totally think collectors should have their own thing as well. In my ideal world, card reprinting would be common, but they would never reuse the same art twice. Once a card was printed, you'd never have the chance to get that exact card again or anything that looked like it, however you could always get a reprint with different art if the only reason you wanted the card was to play with it. In that vein, I think high value collectables like GP Foils, Player Rewards Cards, Judge foils, etc. Are great and should continue.
I feel that collectors and players overlap, but there should be space for both: no-one should be shut out of a format because something wasn't reprinted, but one should feel that every card one owns is, to some degree, "special".
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
I love people like you, they buy my first printing cards for $$ so I can turn around and buy reprints for $.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That works out well for you and for the collector. The collector is not overpaying you. You simply don't value what the original printing offers in terms of collectibility, so it sounds like a win win situation.
There is no cost barrier for new players. Intro packs cost $15 and come with two boosters each. My wife and I have had loads of fun with just five or ten intro packs from sets from the last couple years. Even just a single pair of intro packs can be a game that doesn't grow old for a very long time.
You realize that not only 8th Edition, but every core set from Unlimited to 10th Edition, was all reprints, right?
In fact, the only pre-M10 core set that would even appear to come close to not being "reprints for the sake of reprints" (as you term it) would have been 7th Edition (which amusingly dodges the scope of Modern Masters, but we'll stay on point here), since at least that one had all new art.
I can sympathize with you in that I'd rather have the original on almost any card I play (with allowance for the occasional promo or amazing art bucking that trend), but the only thing that is different from a normal set here is that MM2015 doesn't cycle through standard (and even that is less than an indicator than some would think, as evidenced by Portal, Portal 2, Portal: Three Kingdoms, and Conspiracy -- For the sake of argument, I'm ignoring box sets such as commander, but for Legacy players such as myself, those are relevant as well).
MTG needs reprints, and we are free to preferentially seek out originals as we see fit.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
7th Edition happens to be my favorite core set and one of my favorite sets of all time. I got two MTGO redemption boxes of it a few years ago, opened one for binder display, and kept the other one sealed.
Core sets are different from expansions, hence why they're not called expansions, they don't expand the game. It was a perfect way to include reprints in the game because they were all the "core set," just different editions/printings of it.
Which is fine for playing at the kitchen table. When you go to play ina tournament, however, you need to spend a lot more money to make a deck that can be competitive. In Modern, a good chunk of that money is simply for a manabase, but there are a lot of cards that you'll need 4-of that add up quickly. The price barrier isn't a barrier to the game, it's to the game at any serious competitive level: spend the cash, or lose to those who did.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
You mention 8th edition (and likely since they are included in modern, 9th edition and 10th edition) as being okay, and yet, these old core sets were nothing but reprints of cards just like modern masters is. They had their own expansion symbols (8 or 9 or X), which is just as legitimate as the modern masters set symbol or the set symbol from khans. The difference was, those core sets were created to be a set full of reprints for the standard format. Whereas modern masters is a set full of reprints created for the modern format rather than standard. Sure, the gloss of many special set cards is a bit odd or off putting when you see them alongside regular cards, but that's part of how they differentiate those cards for whatever reason, possibly as well to give the originals that added bit of collectability, as often still tends to be the case when cards are reprinted (I know a lot of people that have still preferred the originals over any reprinted versions no matter what the card was.
Other than the look more specifically, its also a way to reprint the cards while leaving the supply of the original version from the original expansion it came in, the same, while increasing the supply of the card in general. If you don't like the look/feel of the new versions of the cards, then don't worry about collecting the set, and play what you do like. The great thing about magic is that it can be a great many things to a great many different people. Which is why we have casual players, EDH/Commander players, Standard players, Modern Players, Legacy Players, and people who just like to play limited and collect cards as the case may be. In this case it sounds like modern masters isn't for you, and you should focus your efforts with the game elsewhere for your collecting or playing needs. The original versions of those cards still exist out there to collect, and the modern masters cards are there for people who may want to collect those versions, or who simply may want to play limited or play the formats in general where those cards are legal. Besides that, you can always just trade the new ones for the older versions likely with a little more added in due to the value difference, so its not like you would have to keep the new cards if you didn't want them, but still wanted to open/draft the set.
Anyhow, just some things to keep in mind. Inevitably reprints are necessary to deal with the continually and fast growing population of players of magic the gathering, to make sure that formats like modern are kept as available to players as possible (supply wise).
Well yes, playing professionally should cost money, why not? Comparing it as a game to other games in terms of how games are normally played by people, it is not any more expensive.
Those core sets make sense to be made up of reprints, they are "the" game, the core set. "Magic, Edition 1, Edition 2, Edition 3, etc." Reprinting cards makes sense in that context. Then there are expansions which expand the game. What is Modern Masters? It doesn't fall into either of those categories, it is a false set of reprints that doesn't fit anywhere in the scheme of the game.