Why does tribal, such as Crib Swap, count as a card type? You can have an artifact, you can have a creature, you can have an artifact creature. You can have a tribal instant, but drop the instant and what you do have? Nothing. Wouldn't it make more sense to classify it as a subtype similar to Trap, i.e. Mindbreak Trap, or Arcane, i.e. Desperate Ritual?
Why does tribal, such as Crib Swap, count as a card type? You can have an artifact, you can have a creature, you can have an artifact creature. You can have a tribal instant, but drop the instant and what you do have? Nothing. Wouldn't it make more sense to classify it as a subtype similar to Trap, i.e. Mindbreak Trap or Arcane, i.e. Desperate Ritual?
I'm really glad someone else had this question, I've been wondering the same thing.
My guess would be to really make it feel like an all-in tribal themed deck. Kind of like snow decks, when you want absolutely everything to be on theme.
I guess I'm just glad there's no Basic Tribal Lands
You can't associate subtypes to other subtypes or super types. There are also specific subtypes that match to card types. Creatures and Tribals share their list. Instants and Sorceries share a list. Enchantments, Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Lands have their own unique lists.
Crib Swap can't have all creature types without being either a creature or a tribal. Since it isn't a creature it has to be a tribal.
You can't associate subtypes to other subtypes or super types. There are also specific subtypes that match to card types. Creatures and Tribals share their list. Instants and Sorceries share a list. Enchantments, Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Lands have their own unique lists.
Crib Swap can't have all creature types without being either a creature or a tribal. Since it isn't a creature it has to be a tribal.
Crib Swap can just keep the "shapeshifter" subtype and "changeling" rule text for it to count as all creatures.
You can't associate subtypes to other subtypes or super types. There are also specific subtypes that match to card types. Creatures and Tribals share their list. Instants and Sorceries share a list. Enchantments, Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Lands have their own unique lists.
Crib Swap can't have all creature types without being either a creature or a tribal. Since it isn't a creature it has to be a tribal.
That makes a lot of sense on why it has to be formatted in such a way, but what still irks me is that "tribal" counts as an entirely different card type that tarmogoyf checks for. To me, it doesn't feel more special than "snow," so should it check for that too? (then again, I don't want to see that guy get any bigger than he already is)
Tribal is a work around to the problem that we really had different lists for creature types and spell types.
As they wanted to keep that, they introduced tribal.
But in the end they knew it was a mistake to use a new type just to archive that, especially for the part you stated aswell, as we dont have cards that are only tribal.
Tribal is a pseudo type, it really should have been a super-type, or they should have changed the rules to allow cards to have creature types and not make a "hack" around it.
Tribal is a work around to the problem that we really had different lists for creature types and spell types.
As they wanted to keep that, they introduced tribal.
But in the end they knew it was a mistake to use a new type just to archive that, especially for the part you stated aswell, as we dont have cards that are only tribal.
Tribal is a pseudo type, it really should have been a super-type, or they should have changed the rules to allow cards to have creature types and not make a "hack" around it.
The problem with changing the rules to allow cards to have creature types is that it plays merry hell with anything that says "name a basic land type". Since, under your changed rules, basic lands can have creature types, I can name "Goblin" and "Forest" for Illusionary Terrain. Or the opposite. You thought Life and Limb was bad? You haven't seen anything yet.
And another point is that as far as I know no one at wizards thinks it was a mistake to use Tribal as a workaround for the rules end. The problems with tribal are entirely related to the fact that having defined Tribal cards makes it difficult to avoid putting creature types on everything (does the art have a picture of a goblin? Better slap Tribal - Goblin on it, then!), which they don't want for developmental reasons. Additionally, it adds a great deal of complexity for very little gameplay gain.
The problem with changing the rules to allow cards to have creature types is that it plays merry hell with anything that says "name a basic land type". Since, under your changed rules, basic lands can have creature types, I can name "Goblin" and "Forest" for Illusionary Terrain. Or the opposite. You thought Life and Limb was bad? You haven't seen anything yet.
And another point is that as far as I know no one at wizards thinks it was a mistake to use Tribal as a workaround for the rules end. The problems with tribal are entirely related to the fact that having defined Tribal cards makes it difficult to avoid putting creature types on everything (does the art have a picture of a goblin? Better slap Tribal - Goblin on it, then!), which they don't want for developmental reasons. Additionally, it adds a great deal of complexity for very little gameplay gain.
Tribal could easily just be a subtype like Arcane or Trap. Arcane or Trap have special traits, tribal can just also have those special traits as a subtype. So a card would be Instant-Tribal Goblin. There, problem solved.
The problem with changing the rules to allow cards to have creature types is that it plays merry hell with anything that says "name a basic land type". Since, under your changed rules, basic lands can have creature types, I can name "Goblin" and "Forest" for Illusionary Terrain. Or the opposite. You thought Life and Limb was bad? You haven't seen anything yet.
And another point is that as far as I know no one at wizards thinks it was a mistake to use Tribal as a workaround for the rules end. The problems with tribal are entirely related to the fact that having defined Tribal cards makes it difficult to avoid putting creature types on everything (does the art have a picture of a goblin? Better slap Tribal - Goblin on it, then!), which they don't want for developmental reasons. Additionally, it adds a great deal of complexity for very little gameplay gain.
Tribal could easily just be a subtype like Arcane or Trap. Arcane or Trap have special traits, tribal can just also have those special traits as a subtype. So a card would be Instant-Tribal Goblin. There, problem solved.
Arcane and Trap don't have special traits. That's like saying Soldier has different traits than Warrior. Soldiers as a subtype don't do anything different than Warrior does. Your confusing other cards looking for/checking said subtype as a special trait when no such thing is happening.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
You can't associate subtypes to other subtypes or super types. There are also specific subtypes that match to card types. Creatures and Tribals share their list. Instants and Sorceries share a list. Enchantments, Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Lands have their own unique lists.
Crib Swap can't have all creature types without being either a creature or a tribal. Since it isn't a creature it has to be a tribal.
That makes a lot of sense on why it has to be formatted in such a way, but what still irks me is that "tribal" counts as an entirely different card type that tarmogoyf checks for. To me, it doesn't feel more special than "snow," so should it check for that too? (then again, I don't want to see that guy get any bigger than he already is)
Snow is a supertype, like Basic or Legendary. Just like subtypes can't belong to other subtypes, subtypes can't belong to supertypes. Tribal is a type because the rules of the game dictate that it must be.
As for Tarmogoyf getting "bigger", Tribal made its debut in the same set as Tarmogoyf (Bound in Silence), and the type was listed in Tarmogoyf's reminder text for its first printing. Wizards intended Tribal to contribute to Tarmogoyf from the beginning, so I don't see where the problem is.
Tribal could easily just be a subtype like Arcane or Trap. Arcane or Trap have special traits, tribal can just also have those special traits as a subtype. So a card would be Instant-Tribal Goblin. There, problem solved.
No, it couldn't. There is absolutely nothing special about the Arcane or Trap subtypes. They simply have card support, like Rebels, Mercenaries, Elves, Goblins, and more. If they printed it, a card with "Splice onto Human" would work just fine (although it would probably be a bookkeeping nightmare).
Instants cannot be Goblins. If you tried to add the Goblin subtype to an instant somehow, it would fail (unless the instant in question had already become a Creature or Tribal card). Similarly, the Changeling ability on cards like Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap would not function if the card was not Tribal. This is similar to the reason why Mutavault does not have Changeling, despite being printed in the block with all the other Changeling cards and having practically the same effect.
Snow is a supertype, like Basic or Legendary. Just like subtypes can't belong to other subtypes, subtypes can't belong to supertypes. Tribal is a type because the rules of the game dictate that it must be.
Thanks for the explanation. I guess what just irks me more specifically is that the differentiation placed between a supertype and a subtype just seems really arbitrary and unintuitive. But yeah, that's just like many other things in life.
I believe that each type (super, sub or otherwise) has a reason for being what it is.
Snow is a Super Type because it can be associated with any card type, lands, creatures, etc. Just like Legendary. It is worth noting that Snow Permanents that produce mana can produce S.
Basic is a Super Type to avoid issues that would affect something with a specific subtype. If you could change Boil to destroy all Basics there would be a problem.
Tribal is a Card Type because it is meant to associate creature types to non-creature cards. This is the way they decided to make it work within the rules. There was a lot of argument back in Lorwyn as to why they did it this way but it was basically agreed that it was just how the rules decided to work. It might have been interesting to make Tribal a Super Type (use a different name) that could associate odd sub types to cards although Creatures have by far the most sub types so making it less complex by just doing them makes a lot of sense.
In addition if card's Types change they may lose associated sub types but super types remain.
The Basic Land types also have rules meaning. They all add "T: Add X Mana to your Mana Pool" (where X isn't X but replaces the color the land type makes) to the card.
It isn't perfect but it is what the comp rules say.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
L1 Judge
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm really glad someone else had this question, I've been wondering the same thing.
My guess would be to really make it feel like an all-in tribal themed deck. Kind of like snow decks, when you want absolutely everything to be on theme.
I guess I'm just glad there's no Basic Tribal Lands
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
Crib Swap can't have all creature types without being either a creature or a tribal. Since it isn't a creature it has to be a tribal.
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
That makes a lot of sense on why it has to be formatted in such a way, but what still irks me is that "tribal" counts as an entirely different card type that tarmogoyf checks for. To me, it doesn't feel more special than "snow," so should it check for that too? (then again, I don't want to see that guy get any bigger than he already is)
As they wanted to keep that, they introduced tribal.
But in the end they knew it was a mistake to use a new type just to archive that, especially for the part you stated aswell, as we dont have cards that are only tribal.
Tribal is a pseudo type, it really should have been a super-type, or they should have changed the rules to allow cards to have creature types and not make a "hack" around it.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
And another point is that as far as I know no one at wizards thinks it was a mistake to use Tribal as a workaround for the rules end. The problems with tribal are entirely related to the fact that having defined Tribal cards makes it difficult to avoid putting creature types on everything (does the art have a picture of a goblin? Better slap Tribal - Goblin on it, then!), which they don't want for developmental reasons. Additionally, it adds a great deal of complexity for very little gameplay gain.
Arcane and Trap don't have special traits. That's like saying Soldier has different traits than Warrior. Soldiers as a subtype don't do anything different than Warrior does. Your confusing other cards looking for/checking said subtype as a special trait when no such thing is happening.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
As for Tarmogoyf getting "bigger", Tribal made its debut in the same set as Tarmogoyf (Bound in Silence), and the type was listed in Tarmogoyf's reminder text for its first printing. Wizards intended Tribal to contribute to Tarmogoyf from the beginning, so I don't see where the problem is.
No, it couldn't. There is absolutely nothing special about the Arcane or Trap subtypes. They simply have card support, like Rebels, Mercenaries, Elves, Goblins, and more. If they printed it, a card with "Splice onto Human" would work just fine (although it would probably be a bookkeeping nightmare).
Instants cannot be Goblins. If you tried to add the Goblin subtype to an instant somehow, it would fail (unless the instant in question had already become a Creature or Tribal card). Similarly, the Changeling ability on cards like Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap would not function if the card was not Tribal. This is similar to the reason why Mutavault does not have Changeling, despite being printed in the block with all the other Changeling cards and having practically the same effect.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Thanks for the explanation. I guess what just irks me more specifically is that the differentiation placed between a supertype and a subtype just seems really arbitrary and unintuitive. But yeah, that's just like many other things in life.
Snow is a Super Type because it can be associated with any card type, lands, creatures, etc. Just like Legendary. It is worth noting that Snow Permanents that produce mana can produce S.
Basic is a Super Type to avoid issues that would affect something with a specific subtype. If you could change Boil to destroy all Basics there would be a problem.
Tribal is a Card Type because it is meant to associate creature types to non-creature cards. This is the way they decided to make it work within the rules. There was a lot of argument back in Lorwyn as to why they did it this way but it was basically agreed that it was just how the rules decided to work. It might have been interesting to make Tribal a Super Type (use a different name) that could associate odd sub types to cards although Creatures have by far the most sub types so making it less complex by just doing them makes a lot of sense.
In addition if card's Types change they may lose associated sub types but super types remain.
The Basic Land types also have rules meaning. They all add "T: Add X Mana to your Mana Pool" (where X isn't X but replaces the color the land type makes) to the card.
It isn't perfect but it is what the comp rules say.