(Fakes) might not be traded and sold en masse yet, because the technology isn't quite there...
The tech is up to the task. Has been for quite some years.
It would be the bad fakes that a regular fella like you and I could tell. The good fakes we wouldn't be able to, as the good fakes would be using the proper materials to get the job done just right.
Thing is, this is a niche hobby, I'm sure organized crime has better things to make money from. The only people who would consider this kind of scam are people who know how to print this stuff.
Remember too, that magic cards do differ a bit, they're not all exactly the same. I've got a playset of Narcomoeba's that are all slightly different.
If you can make fakes on that level, why would you be inclined to sell them for pennies on the dollar though? And if they're still expensive, then what's the benefit to making fakes?
Well you wouldn't. You'd trade them, sell them whatever at a *good deal* price so you can sell them quickly, without making it look like stolen merch.
I honestly don't care if my opponent had a Force of Will that was a yellow piece of paper with FORCE hand-written on it.
As long as their deck abides by the typical deck-building rules I'm happy to game on, win or lose.
I'm not sure a DQ is a deviation. Intentionally breaking tournament rules, like using genuine cards, should be awarded a DQ even at Regular REL. There might be some leeway but I think that a DQ is a possible outcome of knowingly using fake cards. He might have forget they were fake but he knew they were fake and he puts them in his deck.
If he has been suspended it can easily verified on the online of suspended people as long as his name or DCI number is known.
This is true, if he did it intentionally then by all means boot him & recommend a suspension, but the way the story was worded left quite a bit of doubt as to intent. The way I read it is that the player had bought a set of real Goyfs to replace the fakes, presented thinking he had replaced the fakes & simply forgot to do so. The USC-Cheating infraction requires intent as a part of the infraction; if the player committed the offense unintentionally, it's not Cheating. If the facts are exactly as they're written above & the real Goyfs weren't in play elsewhere in the event (loaned out), then I'd have a very hard time getting to the "this guy did this intentionally" point that's required for the DQ.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
If the "fake" is as good as the real thing... Is it really a "fake"?
If it's not printed by WOTC it's fake. Quality is not the issue. This is an issue of Intellectual Property Rights. The people that work hard every day to create and maintain this amazing game are the people that should profit from it. Printing a copy of someone else's property, and then selling it is illegal, unethical and just plain crummy. I've taken a sharpy to many a basic land for the sake of testing before purchasing expensive cards, but I don't sell them or take them to public games.
The expense of a card is not a valid excuse for theft.
If the "fake" is as good as the real thing... Is it really a "fake"?
If it's not printed by WOTC it's fake. Quality is not the issue. This is an issue of Intellectual Property Rights. The people that work hard every day to create and maintain this amazing game are the people that should profit from it. Printing a copy of someone else's property, and then selling it is illegal, unethical and just plain crummy. I've taken a sharpy to many a basic land for the sake of testing before purchasing expensive cards, but I don't sell them or take them to public games.
The expense of a card is not a valid excuse for theft.
Copyright violation and theft are totally different offences. One inflicts a material cost on the victim, the other an opportunity cost, and both are usually done for profit.
I don't like people that drive drunk, but I don't accuse them of being child molesters, thieves, or puppy torturers.
No, it's theft. Someone is stealing an idea and passing it off as their own. Anyone caught selling fakes will have questions to answer and lawyers to consider. WOTC can make a case for loss of profit and sue for damages (among other things). It's also not copyright violation. It's patent infringement and WOTC has the resources to defend their patents.
There really is no grey area here. Fakes are illegal. WOTC has in the past aggressively pursued counterfeiters and I'm sure they will continue.
The question is; is it possible for collectors to sue wotc if they don't police report or otherwise try to stop these counterfeiters ?
That's not the question. It's WotC's copyright. They don't have to protect it if they don't want to.
WotC tries to protect its customers from counterfeits, because they realize it's bad for business. That said, it can be hard to enforce copyright infringement violations in certain other parts of the world.
But regardless, WotC isn't obligated to protect their copyrights, so it won't do anything to take them to court.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
The question is; is it possible for collectors to sue wotc if they don't police report or otherwise try to stop these counterfeiters ?
No. The only theory this could possibly work under would be if Wizard's was not living up to what would essentially be a warrantee for it's product - ie if wizards was guaranteeing that cards would be worth X dollars, and they weren't, then a consumer might be able to sue wizards - but all wizards is promising the customer is that a pack will contain 15 cards with 1 rare, 3 uncommons, 10 commons, and whatever the 15th card is.
The question is; is it possible for collectors to sue wotc if they don't police report or otherwise try to stop these counterfeiters ?
No. The only theory this could possibly work under would be if Wizard's was not living up to what would essentially be a warrantee for it's product - ie if wizards was guaranteeing that cards would be worth X dollars, and they weren't, then a consumer might be able to sue wizards - but all wizards is promising the customer is that a pack will contain 15 cards with 1 rare, 3 uncommons, 10 commons, and whatever the 15th card is.
What is a warranty ?
If it says on the booster wrap that it has 15 randomly inserted cards, is that a warranty ?
It said this earlier, on all the boosters, but they weren't random after all.
The question is; is it possible for collectors to sue wotc if they don't police report or otherwise try to stop these counterfeiters ?
No. The only theory this could possibly work under would be if Wizard's was not living up to what would essentially be a warrantee for it's product - ie if wizards was guaranteeing that cards would be worth X dollars, and they weren't, then a consumer might be able to sue wizards - but all wizards is promising the customer is that a pack will contain 15 cards with 1 rare, 3 uncommons, 10 commons, and whatever the 15th card is.
What is a warranty ?
If it says on the booster wrap that it has 15 randomly inserted cards, is that a warranty ?
It said this earlier, on all the boosters, but they weren't random after all.
Not warranty the explicit "Here is your warranty paperwork" but warranty the legal concept, where products are expected to perform at a certain level or there is an explicit or implicit promise that a product will do something, and where if the manufacturer or seller violates that "warranty," they can be sued for it if the consumer suffered damages. Like I said, though, this would never work because wizards isn't explicitly or implicitly saying anything except "this pack has 15 magic cards in it."
As someone who plays in sanctioned vintage tournaments, proxies are most definitely not allowed. Fakes are not hard to spot if you've been looking at cards for 20 years.
No, it's theft. Someone is stealing an idea and passing it off as their own.
This isn't Inception. You can't "steal an idea". It's impossible. That's not how ideas work. If someone else came up with the idea for building Esper Dragons and I copied it, we would both have the same idea of the sixty card deck, Esper Dragons. If someone else built an Esper Dragons deck and I stole it, I would have an Esper Dragons deck and he would be deprived of it.
In the case of intellectual property infringement the government has declared copying ideas illegal, but the fact that two actions are both illegal does not make them the same.
Why does it have to be a CRIME for lying to be bad? Are Magic players really that autistic?
Lying isn't even a crime, save for some special cases (ie. under oath). Getting into the morality of counterfeiting is not worthwhile. It'll end up in a morass of starving artists and starving farmers.
Intellectual property infringement is unambiguously illegal. That's all that really matters. There is no need to pretend it is theft or contend that it is evil.
No, it's theft. Someone is stealing an idea and passing it off as their own.
This isn't Inception. You can't "steal an idea". It's impossible. That's not how ideas work. If someone else came up with the idea for building Esper Dragons and I copied it, we would both have the same idea of the sixty card deck, Esper Dragons. If someone else built an Esper Dragons deck and I stole it, I would have an Esper Dragons deck and he would be deprived of it.
We're not talking about copying decklists. We're talking about the people that own and maintain the game. Whenever someone creates and sells a fake as a real card it is theft. WOTC protects itself with patents and they have the resources to pursue infringement. My point is that counterfeits are wrong, hurtful to the game and illegal. When I hear someone ask "if it's indistinguishable from the real thing, is it still a fake?" it drives me crazy, because YES! it's fake.
As someone who plays in sanctioned vintage tournaments, proxies are most definitely not allowed. Fakes are not hard to spot if you've been looking at cards for 20 years.
Yes, for a sanctioned Vintage tournament that would be the case. Because it's sanctioned. However, enough Vintage staples are hard enough to come by at what enough people consider to be reasonable prices that there are many areas which run unsanctioned Vintage tournaments which allow some number of proxies. (I've not heard of any place which runs Vintage tournaments with 100% proxies allowed, usually it's only a handful per deck permitted.) As an unsanctioned tournament, the DCI holds no sway over the rules of the tournament.
We're not talking about copying decklists. We're talking about the people that own and maintain the game. Whenever someone creates and sells a fake as a real card it is theft. WOTC protects itself with patents and they have the resources to pursue infringement. My point is that counterfeits are wrong, hurtful to the game and illegal. When I hear someone ask "if it's indistinguishable from the real thing, is it still a fake?" it drives me crazy, because YES! it's fake.
That's still not theft, though. It's fraud (specifically, counterfeit). These are different crimes. Theft is the unlawful taking of another's property. Counterfeit is the unlawful duplication of an object. Ideas are not property, despite what the term "Intellectual Property" might lead you to believe. You cannot be charged with grand theft Magic cards because you printed a Black Lotus. (Even an Unlimited Black Lotus is expensive enough that stealing a single one would qualify as grand theft in pretty much every jurisdiction that makes the distinction.)
Definition of patent infringement: the manufacture and/or use of an invention or improvement for which someone else owns a patent issued by the government, without obtaining permission of the owner of the patent by contract, license or waiver. The infringing party will be liable to the owner of the patent for all profits made from the use of the invention, as well as any harm which can be shown by the inventor, whether the infringement was intentional or not.
Printing and selling fake MTG cards is literally patent infringement. So, theft is technically the wrong word. The individuals that hold the patents have ownership over very concrete things specified in the patent. We are not talking about an idea or a copyright. I guess I've gotten off point here so will drop it. I don't like fakes, lying or criminals taking advantage of gamers. Also don't like to hear gamers say they are okay with fakes. I have a lot of time invested in this game (20+ years) and have worked hard to create a fun, positive community at my shop. I get defensive when something like this threatens what we have.
Definition of patent infringement: the manufacture and/or use of an invention or improvement for which someone else owns a patent issued by the government, without obtaining permission of the owner of the patent by contract, license or waiver. The infringing party will be liable to the owner of the patent for all profits made from the use of the invention, as well as any harm which can be shown by the inventor, whether the infringement was intentional or not.
Printing and selling fake MTG cards is literally patent infringement. So, theft is technically the wrong word. The individuals that hold the patents have ownership over very concrete things specified in the patent. We are not talking about an idea or a copyright. I guess I've gotten off point here so will drop it. I don't like fakes, lying or criminals taking advantage of gamers. Also don't like to hear gamers say they are okay with fakes. I have a lot of time invested in this game (20+ years) and have worked hard to create a fun, positive community at my shop. I get defensive when something like this threatens what we have.
Y'know what's awesome? This is in the MtG patent:
Another version of the game can be played using a playing board. This board has pathways on it divided into squares on which the players move. The pathways are surrounded colored areas called lands. When two players meet on the same square in a land area, they duel by playing their own deck of cards against each other, as set forth above. The rules may require the players to use the color of magic or color of cards corresponding to the color of land surrounding the pathway square on which their pieces are resting.
Slightly offtopic but whenever vintage tournaments are held around the twin cities area it's unlimited proxies although some years back it was usually 15 proxies.
If a card is printed without WotC allowing it/not at Carta Mundi even if it's completely indistinguisable from an official card opened out of a booster pack it's still a fake. Can anyone prove that it is, in fact, a fake? Such a thing is impossible. Luckily we aren't there yet where people can produce a black lotus that is indistinguishable from one printed in 1993 as things would get very ugly very fast in terms of the secondary market. Think of what would happen when people started panic selling ABUR dual lands, power 9, etc. etc. or if tens of thousands of these cards hit the market overnight. It would be the equivalent of WotC getting shot right in the chest point blank with a 12 gauge shotgun.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
WotC won't allow proxies because they make their money of new cards, which have those fancy seals on them now.
They don't lose money when someone makes a fake Badlands, only the people with real Badlands lose money, and those people already paid WotC
That's a really simplistic view of it. Anyone that is okay with Fake out of print cards probably isn't going to stop at fake in print cards. There are also aspects where it hurts, the stability and trust of the WOTC, the brand, the secondary market and individual stores and players in a way that is wholely detrimental to the game.
Counterfeiting is illegal, same as counterfeited money or other knockoff products.
Now I honestly don't care what you do in a casual environment like your own home, if you want to print off a copy of every RL card go nuts. But why pretend that anyone is going to tolerate that in the real world?
Mass counterfeiting is probably the one thing that would actually kill Magic (unlike the other reports of sky falling).
I am not against the idea of having those high quality counterfeit cards for personal use, say in a cube (just take note of which are the fakes so you do not forget later). But then you are drawing that fine line which gets more counterfeiters to flood the market and ruin the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am looking for Date Stamped promos from Khans of Tarkir block so I can finish my set. Check my wants if you have any.
Currently offering 2 non-foil Kolighan's Command for a Date Stamped foil!
No, it's theft. Someone is stealing an idea and passing it off as their own.
This isn't Inception. You can't "steal an idea". It's impossible. That's not how ideas work. If someone else came up with the idea for building Esper Dragons and I copied it, we would both have the same idea of the sixty card deck, Esper Dragons. If someone else built an Esper Dragons deck and I stole it, I would have an Esper Dragons deck and he would be deprived of it.
We're not talking about copying decklists. We're talking about the people that own and maintain the game. Whenever someone creates and sells a fake as a real card it is theft. WOTC protects itself with patents and they have the resources to pursue infringement. My point is that counterfeits are wrong, hurtful to the game and illegal. When I hear someone ask "if it's indistinguishable from the real thing, is it still a fake?" it drives me crazy, because YES! it's fake.
Yes, this. It's wrong to counterfeit. Proxies really are the same thing. You're pretending to have a card that you do not have, which you did not pay for. (Even if you bought the fake, you still did not pay for the actual card.)
We're not talking about copying decklists. We're talking about the people that own and maintain the game. Whenever someone creates and sells a fake as a real card it is theft.
Simply wrong. Theft is theft. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. These aren't just random words that we can redefine as we see fit. They have actual meanings and must be used correctly. If I broke into a WotC warehouse and took a few cases of product, that would be theft. If I made my own MtG cards and played them in my kitchen table, that would be copyright infringement.
My point is that counterfeits are wrong, hurtful to the game and illegal.
Then you should make that point without saying ridiculous things like "copyright infringement is theft".[/quote]
It isn't polite to say that I'm making ridiculous statements. Also, it is theft. Message boards can be a place where we talk to each other with respect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The tech is up to the task. Has been for quite some years.
It would be the bad fakes that a regular fella like you and I could tell. The good fakes we wouldn't be able to, as the good fakes would be using the proper materials to get the job done just right.
Thing is, this is a niche hobby, I'm sure organized crime has better things to make money from. The only people who would consider this kind of scam are people who know how to print this stuff.
Remember too, that magic cards do differ a bit, they're not all exactly the same. I've got a playset of Narcomoeba's that are all slightly different.
Well you wouldn't. You'd trade them, sell them whatever at a *good deal* price so you can sell them quickly, without making it look like stolen merch.
I honestly don't care if my opponent had a Force of Will that was a yellow piece of paper with FORCE hand-written on it.
As long as their deck abides by the typical deck-building rules I'm happy to game on, win or lose.
This is true, if he did it intentionally then by all means boot him & recommend a suspension, but the way the story was worded left quite a bit of doubt as to intent. The way I read it is that the player had bought a set of real Goyfs to replace the fakes, presented thinking he had replaced the fakes & simply forgot to do so. The USC-Cheating infraction requires intent as a part of the infraction; if the player committed the offense unintentionally, it's not Cheating. If the facts are exactly as they're written above & the real Goyfs weren't in play elsewhere in the event (loaned out), then I'd have a very hard time getting to the "this guy did this intentionally" point that's required for the DQ.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
If it's not printed by WOTC it's fake. Quality is not the issue. This is an issue of Intellectual Property Rights. The people that work hard every day to create and maintain this amazing game are the people that should profit from it. Printing a copy of someone else's property, and then selling it is illegal, unethical and just plain crummy. I've taken a sharpy to many a basic land for the sake of testing before purchasing expensive cards, but I don't sell them or take them to public games.
The expense of a card is not a valid excuse for theft.
Copyright violation and theft are totally different offences. One inflicts a material cost on the victim, the other an opportunity cost, and both are usually done for profit.
I don't like people that drive drunk, but I don't accuse them of being child molesters, thieves, or puppy torturers.
There really is no grey area here. Fakes are illegal. WOTC has in the past aggressively pursued counterfeiters and I'm sure they will continue.
WotC tries to protect its customers from counterfeits, because they realize it's bad for business. That said, it can be hard to enforce copyright infringement violations in certain other parts of the world.
But regardless, WotC isn't obligated to protect their copyrights, so it won't do anything to take them to court.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
No. The only theory this could possibly work under would be if Wizard's was not living up to what would essentially be a warrantee for it's product - ie if wizards was guaranteeing that cards would be worth X dollars, and they weren't, then a consumer might be able to sue wizards - but all wizards is promising the customer is that a pack will contain 15 cards with 1 rare, 3 uncommons, 10 commons, and whatever the 15th card is.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
If it says on the booster wrap that it has 15 randomly inserted cards, is that a warranty ?
It said this earlier, on all the boosters, but they weren't random after all.
Not warranty the explicit "Here is your warranty paperwork" but warranty the legal concept, where products are expected to perform at a certain level or there is an explicit or implicit promise that a product will do something, and where if the manufacturer or seller violates that "warranty," they can be sued for it if the consumer suffered damages. Like I said, though, this would never work because wizards isn't explicitly or implicitly saying anything except "this pack has 15 magic cards in it."
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Proxies -- non-legal cards that are obviously not real and played with everyone's knowledge and consent -- those are fine.
Counterfeits -- non-legal cards that pass for the original and are being used without knowledge consent -- that means you're lying to someone.
Why does it have to be a CRIME for lying to be bad? Are Magic players really that disconnected from empathy or common courtesy?
EDIT: Fixed the offensive remark.
This isn't Inception. You can't "steal an idea". It's impossible. That's not how ideas work. If someone else came up with the idea for building Esper Dragons and I copied it, we would both have the same idea of the sixty card deck, Esper Dragons. If someone else built an Esper Dragons deck and I stole it, I would have an Esper Dragons deck and he would be deprived of it.
In the case of intellectual property infringement the government has declared copying ideas illegal, but the fact that two actions are both illegal does not make them the same.
Lying isn't even a crime, save for some special cases (ie. under oath). Getting into the morality of counterfeiting is not worthwhile. It'll end up in a morass of starving artists and starving farmers.
Intellectual property infringement is unambiguously illegal. That's all that really matters. There is no need to pretend it is theft or contend that it is evil.
We're not talking about copying decklists. We're talking about the people that own and maintain the game. Whenever someone creates and sells a fake as a real card it is theft. WOTC protects itself with patents and they have the resources to pursue infringement. My point is that counterfeits are wrong, hurtful to the game and illegal. When I hear someone ask "if it's indistinguishable from the real thing, is it still a fake?" it drives me crazy, because YES! it's fake.
That's still not theft, though. It's fraud (specifically, counterfeit). These are different crimes. Theft is the unlawful taking of another's property. Counterfeit is the unlawful duplication of an object. Ideas are not property, despite what the term "Intellectual Property" might lead you to believe. You cannot be charged with grand theft Magic cards because you printed a Black Lotus. (Even an Unlimited Black Lotus is expensive enough that stealing a single one would qualify as grand theft in pretty much every jurisdiction that makes the distinction.)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Printing and selling fake MTG cards is literally patent infringement. So, theft is technically the wrong word. The individuals that hold the patents have ownership over very concrete things specified in the patent. We are not talking about an idea or a copyright. I guess I've gotten off point here so will drop it. I don't like fakes, lying or criminals taking advantage of gamers. Also don't like to hear gamers say they are okay with fakes. I have a lot of time invested in this game (20+ years) and have worked hard to create a fun, positive community at my shop. I get defensive when something like this threatens what we have.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
If a card is printed without WotC allowing it/not at Carta Mundi even if it's completely indistinguisable from an official card opened out of a booster pack it's still a fake. Can anyone prove that it is, in fact, a fake? Such a thing is impossible. Luckily we aren't there yet where people can produce a black lotus that is indistinguishable from one printed in 1993 as things would get very ugly very fast in terms of the secondary market. Think of what would happen when people started panic selling ABUR dual lands, power 9, etc. etc. or if tens of thousands of these cards hit the market overnight. It would be the equivalent of WotC getting shot right in the chest point blank with a 12 gauge shotgun.
Currently Playing:
Retired
They don't lose money when someone makes a fake Badlands, only the people with real Badlands lose money, and those people already paid WotC
That's a really simplistic view of it. Anyone that is okay with Fake out of print cards probably isn't going to stop at fake in print cards. There are also aspects where it hurts, the stability and trust of the WOTC, the brand, the secondary market and individual stores and players in a way that is wholely detrimental to the game.
Counterfeiting is illegal, same as counterfeited money or other knockoff products.
Now I honestly don't care what you do in a casual environment like your own home, if you want to print off a copy of every RL card go nuts. But why pretend that anyone is going to tolerate that in the real world?
I am not against the idea of having those high quality counterfeit cards for personal use, say in a cube (just take note of which are the fakes so you do not forget later). But then you are drawing that fine line which gets more counterfeiters to flood the market and ruin the game.
Currently offering 2 non-foil Kolighan's Command for a Date Stamped foil!
convert bulk into good cards? PucaTrade - https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/21195
Ebay - decks/Promos/DVDs
Trade thread (constantly updated)
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/337-pokerbob1s-casual-trading-emporium
Yes, this. It's wrong to counterfeit. Proxies really are the same thing. You're pretending to have a card that you do not have, which you did not pay for. (Even if you bought the fake, you still did not pay for the actual card.)
Why is it being immoral to steal not sufficient?
Simply wrong. Theft is theft. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. These aren't just random words that we can redefine as we see fit. They have actual meanings and must be used correctly. If I broke into a WotC warehouse and took a few cases of product, that would be theft. If I made my own MtG cards and played them in my kitchen table, that would be copyright infringement.
Then you should make that point without saying ridiculous things like "copyright infringement is theft".
Then you should make that point without saying ridiculous things like "copyright infringement is theft".[/quote]
It isn't polite to say that I'm making ridiculous statements. Also, it is theft. Message boards can be a place where we talk to each other with respect.