Never played the format yet I dislike it. Someone told me it's a slightly cheaper way to play Legacy, but I watched a game all it was was power cards with no synergy, and the same cards again and again. I decided if that was the case, I'd stick to Legacy, where a blue deck does not always have Jace in it...
Jace Beleren is the only Tiny Leaders legal Jace and he's not really the one your talking about, is he?
While I think TL is pointless, saying that it's just power cards with no synergy sounds more like a small data set and not something inherent in the format.
No I meant that Jace. There are just staples in Tiny Leaders which you are not suppose to leave out of your deck, and to me that just limits your customisations.
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No I meant that Jace. There are just staples in Tiny Leaders which you are not suppose to leave out of your deck, and to me that just limits your customisations.
While I agree, I don't know if that's unique to Tiny Leaders. I hate TL because it feels so incredibly limited to me, but I have seen enough decks to know that not everyone builds their decks the same way - Locally, I've seen Animar run as a Combo, Voltron, and Aggro deck with my data set being 3.
As a deckbuilding addict, it appeals to me by having a deep card pool, interesting/challenging deckbuilding restrictions, and by being a format that is not yet "solved", but once I've got a feel for whether my new brew actually works or not the appeal of playing dissipates completely. If I want a cut throat 1v1 competitive format, I'd rather play legacy. If I want a casual, interesting singleton format, I'll play EDH. Tiny Leaders misses the mark on both.
And sour apple skittles taste like goddamn garbage.
As a deckbuilding addict, it appeals to me by having a deep card pool, interesting/challenging deckbuilding restrictions, and by being a format that is not yet "solved", but once I've got a feel for whether my new brew actually works or not the appeal of playing dissipates completely. If I want a cut throat 1v1 competitive format, I'd rather play legacy. If I want a casual, interesting singleton format, I'll play EDH. Tiny Leaders misses the mark on both.
And sour apple skittles taste like goddamn garbage.
So that comparison between them and TL was pretty fitting eh?
It feels poorly cobbled together and that some cards that "warp" the format by the converted mana cost restriction being a 100% upside should be banned. Inquistion of Kozilek is a much better thoughtseize, and Smother kills everything without Protection from Black. Also, Black Sun's Zenith is really good in a format that has 43 cards left in your deck when you get your opening hand.
I'm just not a fan of the format. I told myself I would give it time to see if they actually banned anything, but with no banned list updates, this looks like it's dead in the water as far as competitiveness goes. I see a lot of sameness out there, which is surprising since you would think with sideboards you would try some wackier stuff. :/
They stated on their Facebook page in April that ban list updates will be synchronized with Wizards' official ban list announcements going forward, so that should happen starting with Origins.
I would agree that some bannings may be needed to handle things that are too degenerate, though I wouldn't agree with banning cards like Smother or Inquisition of Kozilek just because their CMC restrictions are non-factors in the format. There's a difference between a card being elevated due to the parameters of a format vs. warping the format. An example of the latter would be Karakas in TL or EDH.
I find TL to be a nice change to have available. My local shop has some people with a TL deck and its being encouraged. We may start having TL tournaments.
Is it Legacy? No. Is it EDH? No. TL is TL.
The format could be looked at as a hyper, little brother (cousin) of Legacy. Some will find it annoying, some will want nothing to do with it...and sometimes you'll sit down with the hyper kid and just have some fun.
As someone who knows the creators and overlords of Tiny Leaders I have to say that Tiny Leaders was never meant to be an alternative to Commander (more like Legacy) and I'm not sure how people ever thought that
Yeah. I know 2-3 people who play EDH that think Tiny Leaders is playable. I know 40-50 that all think it's *****. It's packaged like EDH but it's not at all the same - sort of like Sour Apple Skittles.
More like the Sam Adams winter mixed 12-packs that have 4 or 5 different beers that are supposedly good (I don't know, I'm a non-drinker) and one that smells and presumably tastes like cat piss.
I just see no reason to play Tiny Leaders over Duel Commander. Duel Commander offers a Legacy-like environment, blended in with Commandery goodness, all without the limitation of not being able to run 4CMC+ cards.
In a 1v1 competitive format, there is no reason to limit CMC on the high end. That will happen naturally. Now if they would make a format called Giant Leaders with only CMC4 and above...that would be unique, but still, I'd rather just play Commander.
TL is watered down Legacy: can only run 1 of's which and most decks are very similar to Legacy ie esper deathblade).
TL is watered down EDH: limited card pool, limited creativity, limited commanders.
I selected "Active, but leveled off" for the first poll since everyone in my playgroup has 1 or 2 TL decks, but it is usually only played as duels between large Commander free-for-alls (like if someone hasn't shown up yet, or they stepped out for food). Commander is still the dominant format.
For the second poll I selected "Indifferent" because I do like building under restrictions, and it can lead to some quick, enjoyable games. However I like the deck building challenges and drawn out power struggles that Commander has more.
TL is watered down Legacy: can only run 1 of's which and most decks are very similar to Legacy ie esper deathblade).
TL is watered down EDH: limited card pool, limited creativity, limited commanders.
that's what it really seems like to me and is what keeps me away.
I always try and make a deck just for the fun but I'd rather make decks for other formats
Our playgroup consist of 15 EDH players; 8 of them (not me) also play legacy. When TL was introduced, 5 players (including me) jumped in and built TL decks; didn't like it for reasons stated. Currently, no one in our group plays TL.
An LGS tried to 'support' TL when the format was introduced; the LGS dedicated a night/tourney slot to TL. Unfortunately for TL, a tourney never fired since the highest turnout, iirc, has been three players. Not sure if the LGS even bothers to list TL in the weekly events anymore...
It is still relatively popular in my area, with the top store holding weekly tourneys. I haven't gotten into it personally, just played a few games with borrowed decks. At this point in our area it feels very much like Legacy-lite and nothing at all like EDH. Decks are streamlined and pretty brutal, nothing really casual about it. Nothing wrong with any of that, just not something I am personally interested in.
Personally I enjoy limiting myself rather than making a format with heavy limitations. I fear that the deckbuilding would quickly look too consistent and many of the decks would feel too similar. Personally I dont see an advantage in playing TL instead of Duel Commander. I would much rather play Duel Commander to be honest as I see there being better options and variability.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
TL has become my favorite format so it irks me when people who either don't play the format at all or have "played a game with a friends deck" jump to conclusions.
TL is a game that resembles a lot of things on the surface but in truth is extremely deep and unique in magic.
Once you play TL for a while you will find a lot of space that you never considered before because you didn't have to.
I have found TL to be more SB dependent than any other format adding a great layer of strategy.
I have also found TL to have an extremely fluid meta.
the combination of smaller deck size and singleton makes the format more diverse than traditional 60/4 deck rules but it also makes those obscure single card answers to a strategy extremely relevant.
but of course to each their own. I think that to enjoy TL you have to be primarily a lover of deck building and not mind building and tweaking constantly. If you are the kind of person who wants to just perfect the game to game play and skill of a specific archetype you will likley want to just net deck a legacy deck and go from there. this takes a great amount of skill and I dont look down on that. but you likley will not enjoy the dynamics of TL.
Same for an EDH player who enjoys deck crafting but wants an environment where they can make a few wonkey decisions that wont punish them. nothing wrong with that but TL is a bit too efficient for that kind of play.
TL has become my favorite format so it irks me when people who either don't play the format at all or have "played a game with a friends deck" jump to conclusions.
TL is a game that resembles a lot of things on the surface but in truth is extremely deep and unique in magic.
Once you play TL for a while you will find a lot of space that you never considered before because you didn't have to.
I have found TL to be more SB dependent than any other format adding a great layer of strategy.
I have also found TL to have an extremely fluid meta.
the combination of smaller deck size and singleton makes the format more diverse than traditional 60/4 deck rules but it also makes those obscure single card answers to a strategy extremely relevant.
but of course to each their own. I think that to enjoy TL you have to be primarily a lover of deck building and not mind building and tweaking constantly. If you are the kind of person who wants to just perfect the game to game play and skill of a specific archetype you will likley want to just net deck a legacy deck and go from there. this takes a great amount of skill and I dont look down on that. but you likley will not enjoy the dynamics of TL.
Same for an EDH player who enjoys deck crafting but wants an environment where they can make a few wonkey decisions that wont punish them. nothing wrong with that but TL is a bit too efficient for that kind of play.
Couldn't agree more. Bums me out a little to see the poll numbers gradually drifting toward the format's disfavor, though also feels like the most vocal dissenters are Commander players, which I can understand.
Played a couple games with my buddy tonight, me running Skullbriar and him running Geist, and I just marveled at how intricate the gameplay was. Geist is tough to play against (considered one of the top 1-2 generals in the format) but BG has a lot of strong tools to combat it. I built up a board of Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant (talk about confusing upkeep/draw steps) and a handful of various creatures (Lotleth Troll, Vampire Nighthawk, Deathrite Shaman, Bloodstained Champion, Treetop Village...) while he was working on Voltron-ing Geist and Eidolon of Countless Battles and stalling with Maze of Ith.
That's what separates TL from Legacy for me... you see such a wider variety of cards which lead to so many interesting interactions. The card pool for TL may technically be smaller, but the pool of viable cards is SO much larger. Legacy is great, but TL is more than just its kid brother.
For me it is not about comparing it to EDH or Legacy (something I am utterly unqualified to do), rather it does not fit into the MTG niches I am looking for. I like Modern for a medium to high competitive level, and Standard (I actually play this very rarely) for it's rotation. Beyond that I want a format that gives me an opportunity to play cards that don't fit in other formats, and one where the games vary a lot from on to the next. EDH scratches that itch like no other, and that is why it is the only real casual format I care about. Tiny Leaders just does not satisfy a need I have. EDH decks can be pretty darn consistent with tutors and early combo wins if you build it that way, but with the few people I play with it is generally like playing a new deck for each game.
For me it is not about comparing it to EDH or Legacy (something I am utterly unqualified to do), rather it does not fit into the MTG niches I am looking for. I like Modern for a medium to high competitive level, and Standard (I actually play this very rarely) for it's rotation. Beyond that I want a format that gives me an opportunity to play cards that don't fit in other formats, and one where the games vary a lot from on to the next. EDH scratches that itch like no other, and that is why it is the only real casual format I care about. Tiny Leaders just does not satisfy a need I have. EDH decks can be pretty darn consistent with tutors and early combo wins if you build it that way, but with the few people I play with it is generally like playing a new deck for each game.
I think that's pretty fair. The main reason I've latched onto TL but never to Duel Commander is that building, sleeving, and maintaining 100-card decks is just overbearing for me. I find them annoyingly awkward to shuffle (especially double-sleeved) and while I love intricate deckbuilding, for Commander decks I practically have to use a spreadsheet to keep track of the card choices. TL gives me the elements of Commander I like without actually having to build Commander decks. Would be nice to have more general options though. I almost wish the color identity restriction in TL/EDH wasn't a thing.
Played the format, and I'm not impressed. I built an Aggro Goblins deck, also build a D&T/Voltron deck, played them over a few weeks.
To echo what many have said, the format fails to deliver anything with more value than what I get in another format. If I want the uniqueness of a singleton format, I'll play EDH, and if I want to focus on powerful cards and synergies, I'll play Legacy.
TL doesn't do anything better than any other format - it's a red-headed stepchild. I'll pass.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
My store just ran a Tiny Leaders Tournament with only 4 days notice.
We got 14 players and may have had more if not for the short notice.
The winning deck was an abzan good stuff deck lead by anafenza and second place was high tide/brain freeze lead by Kami of the crescent moon.
there were only 2 Geist Decks.
I think it was a pretty good show of the format. if you guys want I can even post decklists once I get them input.
This is not intended as a dig (it could easily be considered a plus) on the format, but part of the reason for the numbers could be because people who want to try it can toss together a deck easier than most other formats. If you are looking for an indicator of the popularity I would look at the next few events for numbers.
Banning CMC greater than 4 doesn't seem to improve general-based singleton. Duel Commander seems like a better format on paper because of that rule. Decksize is more of a wash, but if singleton is better 4 ofs for X reason, then 100 card singleton should be better than 50 card singleton due to extra X reason. The reason it's a wash though is that admittedly man it's easier to shuffle a smaller deck. It should at least be 60 though since people are used to shuffling 60 card decks and want gain any extra speed with the 50 due to being so used to 60. (or 40, even).
I think "Tiny Leaders" has been able to rebrand itself better than Duel Commander, and the arbitrary "unique" ban of CMC greater than 4 is how that was done, but long term I don't think it will pay off to use a rule that hurts the funness of the format in order to make short term gains in how EDH as a potential competitive format is perceived.
My store just ran a Tiny Leaders Tournament with only 4 days notice.
We got 14 players and may have had more if not for the short notice.
This is not intended as a dig (it could easily be considered a plus) on the format, but part of the reason for the numbers could be because people who want to try it can toss together a deck easier than most other formats. If you are looking for an indicator of the popularity I would look at the next few events for numbers.
I dont really consider it a 'dig' but I do consider it a little uninformed. building TL on the surface IS easier than building for EDH. but TL is a much less forgiving format. each card caries more weight for the deck than in a format like EDH and to be honest 60 card formats where you tend to have fewer over all cards its more about how much to include than what to include.
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No I meant that Jace. There are just staples in Tiny Leaders which you are not suppose to leave out of your deck, and to me that just limits your customisations.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
And sour apple skittles taste like goddamn garbage.
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So that comparison between them and TL was pretty fitting eh?
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
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UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
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They stated on their Facebook page in April that ban list updates will be synchronized with Wizards' official ban list announcements going forward, so that should happen starting with Origins.
I would agree that some bannings may be needed to handle things that are too degenerate, though I wouldn't agree with banning cards like Smother or Inquisition of Kozilek just because their CMC restrictions are non-factors in the format. There's a difference between a card being elevated due to the parameters of a format vs. warping the format. An example of the latter would be Karakas in TL or EDH.
Legacy: D+T
Oldschool: BW Deadguy BW
Magic player/collector since 1994
Proud supporter of #MtgForLife!
Is it Legacy? No. Is it EDH? No. TL is TL.
The format could be looked at as a hyper, little brother (cousin) of Legacy. Some will find it annoying, some will want nothing to do with it...and sometimes you'll sit down with the hyper kid and just have some fun.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
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More like the Sam Adams winter mixed 12-packs that have 4 or 5 different beers that are supposedly good (I don't know, I'm a non-drinker) and one that smells and presumably tastes like cat piss.
I'm slowly accumulating the cards to build a Skullbriar Tiny Leaders™©B💩® deck. I've got no clue if I'd ever have a chance to play it. No loss to me since the cards are all things I'd play in other formats anyway...
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In a 1v1 competitive format, there is no reason to limit CMC on the high end. That will happen naturally. Now if they would make a format called Giant Leaders with only CMC4 and above...that would be unique, but still, I'd rather just play Commander.
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TL is watered down EDH: limited card pool, limited creativity, limited commanders.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
For the second poll I selected "Indifferent" because I do like building under restrictions, and it can lead to some quick, enjoyable games. However I like the deck building challenges and drawn out power struggles that Commander has more.
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
that's what it really seems like to me and is what keeps me away.
I always try and make a deck just for the fun but I'd rather make decks for other formats
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
An LGS tried to 'support' TL when the format was introduced; the LGS dedicated a night/tourney slot to TL. Unfortunately for TL, a tourney never fired since the highest turnout, iirc, has been three players. Not sure if the LGS even bothers to list TL in the weekly events anymore...
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[Modern] Allies
TL is a game that resembles a lot of things on the surface but in truth is extremely deep and unique in magic.
Once you play TL for a while you will find a lot of space that you never considered before because you didn't have to.
I have found TL to be more SB dependent than any other format adding a great layer of strategy.
I have also found TL to have an extremely fluid meta.
the combination of smaller deck size and singleton makes the format more diverse than traditional 60/4 deck rules but it also makes those obscure single card answers to a strategy extremely relevant.
but of course to each their own. I think that to enjoy TL you have to be primarily a lover of deck building and not mind building and tweaking constantly. If you are the kind of person who wants to just perfect the game to game play and skill of a specific archetype you will likley want to just net deck a legacy deck and go from there. this takes a great amount of skill and I dont look down on that. but you likley will not enjoy the dynamics of TL.
Same for an EDH player who enjoys deck crafting but wants an environment where they can make a few wonkey decisions that wont punish them. nothing wrong with that but TL is a bit too efficient for that kind of play.
Couldn't agree more. Bums me out a little to see the poll numbers gradually drifting toward the format's disfavor, though also feels like the most vocal dissenters are Commander players, which I can understand.
Played a couple games with my buddy tonight, me running Skullbriar and him running Geist, and I just marveled at how intricate the gameplay was. Geist is tough to play against (considered one of the top 1-2 generals in the format) but BG has a lot of strong tools to combat it. I built up a board of Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant (talk about confusing upkeep/draw steps) and a handful of various creatures (Lotleth Troll, Vampire Nighthawk, Deathrite Shaman, Bloodstained Champion, Treetop Village...) while he was working on Voltron-ing Geist and Eidolon of Countless Battles and stalling with Maze of Ith.
That's what separates TL from Legacy for me... you see such a wider variety of cards which lead to so many interesting interactions. The card pool for TL may technically be smaller, but the pool of viable cards is SO much larger. Legacy is great, but TL is more than just its kid brother.
Legacy: D+T
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Magic player/collector since 1994
Proud supporter of #MtgForLife!
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I think that's pretty fair. The main reason I've latched onto TL but never to Duel Commander is that building, sleeving, and maintaining 100-card decks is just overbearing for me. I find them annoyingly awkward to shuffle (especially double-sleeved) and while I love intricate deckbuilding, for Commander decks I practically have to use a spreadsheet to keep track of the card choices. TL gives me the elements of Commander I like without actually having to build Commander decks. Would be nice to have more general options though. I almost wish the color identity restriction in TL/EDH wasn't a thing.
Legacy: D+T
Oldschool: BW Deadguy BW
Magic player/collector since 1994
Proud supporter of #MtgForLife!
To echo what many have said, the format fails to deliver anything with more value than what I get in another format. If I want the uniqueness of a singleton format, I'll play EDH, and if I want to focus on powerful cards and synergies, I'll play Legacy.
TL doesn't do anything better than any other format - it's a red-headed stepchild. I'll pass.
We got 14 players and may have had more if not for the short notice.
The winning deck was an abzan good stuff deck lead by anafenza and second place was high tide/brain freeze lead by Kami of the crescent moon.
there were only 2 Geist Decks.
I think it was a pretty good show of the format. if you guys want I can even post decklists once I get them input.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I think "Tiny Leaders" has been able to rebrand itself better than Duel Commander, and the arbitrary "unique" ban of CMC greater than 4 is how that was done, but long term I don't think it will pay off to use a rule that hurts the funness of the format in order to make short term gains in how EDH as a potential competitive format is perceived.
I dont really consider it a 'dig' but I do consider it a little uninformed. building TL on the surface IS easier than building for EDH. but TL is a much less forgiving format. each card caries more weight for the deck than in a format like EDH and to be honest 60 card formats where you tend to have fewer over all cards its more about how much to include than what to include.