A handshake, to me, means a great deal. Everyone will whine/ complain at some point in their magic career, like any game it doesn't always go your way. Perhaps it is a legacy of when I played rugby but not shaking at the end of a match, in magic and rugby, i would consider extremely rude and/ or suggests bad feeling.
It's a game, you shake at the end and that is the end of it. It is hard when your opponent is being smug but those are the ones which matter most.
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Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I always take the shake and offer it, regardless of the type of game. Good etiquette is good etiquette. There's no excuse to not be polite to your opponent regardless of the game's outcome.
I'm highly competitive, but I'm also highly polite and try like mad to be humble. I often find that when I do get beat by someone, I'm genuinely pleased for that person haha! xP
What I have a bigger issue with...is when I'm the one who beats my opponents without them really ever having a chance. I sometimes feel bad about it, cause when I'm playing competitively...I play absolutely to win. Cut throat. I've no problem playing cards/combos/moves that a casual player would find 'mean'. Mana screwed? Cool! Here, let me boomerang that land for you!...
I am socially awkward, have struggled with social anxieties for most my life...and so I just feel very at odds when I beat the heck out of someone in a match. I always struggle on what to say or how to act so that I don't come across as gloating, or like an a** hole. I usually feel bad for the person lol.
FWIW, it's "loser" and "losing" not "looser" and "loosing". I wouldn't be pedantic about this but it's happened many times in this topic.
No one on the "Good game is awful!" camp has been able to give a good definition of what "good game" actually means. If someone steamrolls you, it apparently isn't a good game. If someone beats you in a close match, it's a "lucky topdeck". People also seem to only look at their side of the equation when it comes to this. Maybe your opponent's deck would have beaten you even MORE badly if they hadn't had a bad draw like they did. Maybe your opponent built a deck that has less variance in it than yours. People tend to not blame their shady keeps but rather their next draws. People will overextend into a board wipe and then blame variance when they can't cobble together good creatures after that.
No one on the "Good game is awful!" camp has been able to give a good definition of what "good game" actually means. If someone steamrolls you, it apparently isn't a good game. If someone beats you in a close match, it's a "lucky topdeck". People also seem to only look at their side of the equation when it comes to this. Maybe your opponent's deck would have beaten you even MORE badly if they hadn't had a bad draw like they did. Maybe your opponent built a deck that has less variance in it than yours. People tend to not blame their shady keeps but rather their next draws. People will overextend into a board wipe and then blame variance when they can't cobble together good creatures after that.
The "GG" at the wrong time happens more often in Limited than in constructed i would suppose.
Situations that become at least awkward involve games like this:
"You keep a 2 land hand on the draw." and you simply never draw the 3rd land, not after 10+ turns, where your opponent finally kills you after absolute no interaction at all (or just completly meaningless jump blockers, which they kill with premium removal, which would be a horrible play in any situation in which you actual draw the 3rd land).
So chances for that to be real are fairly small, but it happens, and in some cases, its shady shuffling from your opponent or what not, the doubt allways exists.
If your opponent kills you and right away puts his hand with a smile in your face "Good game !" , i just think "Yea, totally, god damn it ... "
Its not a good game, its totally not, and saying it is at least "stupid" and in the worst case its an insult, in the best case they just dont know any better, but even then i would not shake the hand and actual explain "Dude, i was on 2 lands the whole game and even after 10 draws did not get a 3rd land ... ".
Losing is fine, if the game actual has something to work with. Some games do not have any interaction, and the game is plain bad. Everyone knows the game was bad, and the reasonable answer as a winner in such a situation would be something along the lines "Sorry that you did not draw your 3rd land." and THEN the beaten player will at least accept that the opponent has any half decent observation of what happened in that game and will potentially offer a hand "as the loser" , which ends in a much better happy ending than the winner rubbing it in the super unlucky loser.
The other extreme involves flooding extremly. If you have your hand with 3 cards 4 lands and simply draw 10+ lands in a row, you will probably lose equally badly and have no reasonable chance of winning. So here again, if they just push their hand in your face "Good game !" it feels like an insult, how can they actual believe this was a good game ? Are they completly stupid ?
If such a scenario happens against players you know, you might still handshake out of friendship and call it a day (some even drop after such crap, as they tilt that hard).
If the other player is more of a newbie or did beat you with real bad cards, it hurts more, as the doubt is in your head "i just had to draw that 3rd land, how unrealistic unlucky was that ?". And situations like that are what people absolute hate about the variance of the game and you simply have to be a newbie to jump in and "Good game" such a game, its not a good game, totally not, its definition of NOT a good game.
Thats what a fair deal of people are talking about if they do not accept a handshake.
In any game that actual has a reasonable % that a player can win, or simply involves them making bad decisions on blocks/plays , thats a fair game, thats a potential good game, and nobody will not accept a handshake from such a reasonable game.
Sure losing sucks, but if a game is truly "bad" do not act like an idiot that did not see that.
Games that involve topdecks and actual "wow" situations actual become pretty great games. Its quite a story to tell how you could lose a game with Citadel Siege and them topdecking a removal turn after turn, which exactly kills you, or the turn 2 Pack Rat you managed to out-race, or the Umezawa's Jitte you could snipe with your Hearth Kami. People might get mad for such things, but its a fine game with interaction and choices, and everyone has something to tell.
If the game was truly great and had many back and forth, spoilers, topdecks and point on finishes, you will have a real feeling "That was a good game" , and the opponent will very much think the same, no matter who won and who lost.
I would not offer a handshake for any game regardless of outcome. If my opponent offers, I will accept out of courtesy. The notable exception is when in a feature match so it is clear that I lost the game for the viewers.
I do not say good game if the game was not good for either player in real life. Online, it is a courtesy to let the player know he or she won.
Magic is a game of skill, and one of its parameters is luck -- when you sit down across from an opponent for a match, be it competitive or friendly, you are accepting the parameters of this game. You know, and accept, that you may win or lose, that you may have mana difficulties, that you may play poorly (or well), that you may be outplayed by an opponents mental game (or vice versa), so on and so forth. Any game that is fought fairly (which means within the rules and parameters of the game), with honour and within the spirit and rules of the game, is a good game. Whether or not you get mana flooded or mana screwed is irrelevant and does not change the meaning of "good game". The only time a game is not "good" is when one player cheats (thus violating the rules/spirit of the game) or one player conducts themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner (thus violating the parameters of competitive play/spirit of the game). If neither of these have occurred, then the game was, in fact, good.
The concept that a game can only be "good" when the loser loses under certain circumstances (must have had an equal chance to win, no mana screw, no mana flood, must draw well, et al) is one of the most self-centred and immature things I have heard in some time from this community. The world does not revolve around any one person, so this self-centred immaturity is, point blank, without justification and unacceptable. It is borderline unsportsmanlike as well.
The Magic community as a whole has massive image and reputation issues, and some of the attitudes being displayed here only reinforce the negative image and reputation the larger community has. Stop being part of the problem.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
And then you bury that desire deep down inside because youre a member of a civilized society where people have self-control and dont just immediately act upon every overly emotional desire that pops into their head.
Sorry, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying something like "Not really, my draws were so weak that I couldn't do anything to stop you." I know I have enough sense that if an opponent gets mana screwed or anything similar, I won't be saying to him "good game". I could say something like "Too bad that you were unlucky with your draws". Maybe not in those exact words but with that idea.
When opponent is more receptive to my plight (if I get mana screwed, flooded, etc.) I'm more likely to be receptive to a "good game" and return the favor.
Saying "sorry about your issues" is a great start IMO. When my opponent does little things like that, I will almost always respond with a "good game" or apologize if I feel like I'm being "salty".
Occasionally; however, you run into players that get super emotional when they win (especially newer, younger players).
Some people can come across as "smug" even if it's not intentional.
Magic is a game of skill, and one of its parameters is luck -- when you sit down across from an opponent for a match, be it competitive or friendly, you are accepting the parameters of this game. You know, and accept, that you may win or lose, that you may have mana difficulties, that you may play poorly (or well), that you may be outplayed by an opponents mental game (or vice versa), so on and so forth. Any game that is fought fairly (which means within the rules and parameters of the game), with honour and within the spirit and rules of the game, is a good game. Whether or not you get mana flooded or mana screwed is irrelevant and does not change the meaning of "good game". The only time a game is not "good" is when one player cheats (thus violating the rules/spirit of the game) or one player conducts themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner (thus violating the parameters of competitive play/spirit of the game). If neither of these have occurred, then the game was, in fact, good.
Your view of "good" is way different than that of others, and just because you think that is the way, does not make it the only right way.
I mean, if you played magic for some time, you will KNOW that the world does not work like you want it to be.
The only thing that people truly want is to have fun with the game and the people you play with.
Nobody truly "accepts" the randomness in the game, especially not the newbies. Some play for the wins, they cheat to win, and the fun is only to win, thats bad no question, but people do that.
Some just come to play magic, they dont care for winning at all. But they totally care for a "good games" , which are memorable and fun. One-sided beatdowns are not fun at all, nobody likes them and nobody enjoys that kind of game.
And i will bet everyone that gets so unlucky in a bunch of events in a row will be so salty, to quit the game for some time.
Any game that is fought fairly (which means within the rules and parameters of the game), with honour and within the spirit and rules of the game, is a good game.
Its a game, its not a fight to the death and theres totally no "honor" in Magic, dont make it sound like its more than it is.
The only time a game is not "good" is when one player cheats (thus violating the rules/spirit of the game) or one player conducts themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner (thus violating the parameters of competitive play/spirit of the game).
The deal with cheating is outside of the realm of definition of how a single game actual feels for the player.
Its totally possible that you get downright cheated to the ground, without noticing it, and you might totally enjoy that game.
Ofcourse, if you notice someone is cheating, you will probably not like that person, and especially if you lose, you will feel certainly worse about it, and that without question hurts a community as a whole.
BUT, for a single game, its simply the basis that everyone plays by the rules. Doing so does NOT make it a good game, it just does not ruin it.
Everyone has to play by the rules, nobody is going to get rewarded for doing so.
The concept that a game can only be "good" when the loser loses under certain circumstances (must have had an equal chance to win, no mana screw, no mana flood, must draw well, et al) is one of the most self-centred and immature things I have heard in some time from this community. The world does not revolve around any one person, so this self-centred immaturity is, point blank, without justification and unacceptable. It is borderline unsportsmanlike as well.
If you truly want to tell me that you "enjoy" games in which you are stuck at 2 mana and never get to play anything and just lose for nothing but the incredible unlucky event that you did not draw a single land in 10+ cards ; sure, have your fun, but dont expect everyone to see it the same way.
People HATE it to get manascrewd. Theres reasonable whining and theres unreasonable whining.
You will allways have mana problems in some way, and thats part of the game. And even "good games" involve mana screwd and mana flood, if the game is not stopped to be completly 1-sided.
A "good game" defines itself by two players actual playing the game against an opponent. If only 1 person is playing the game and the other cant do anything, thats absolutely NOT a good game, as thats absolutely NOT enjoyable at all.
WotC has a similiar view of this aswell and truly everyone that plays the game for a bunch of time will know how frustrating a game is in which you truly cant do anything. You want to avoid this games, as they are bad, thats why we get mechanics to work around them, help to avoid them, in the end produce more "good games" , more enjoyable games.
If you want so, you can replace "good game" with "This was an enjoyable game". Winning or losing does not matter, is has to be fun to play and to have fun, you have to have some form of interaction, otherwise you just play by yourself.
The Magic community as a whole has massive image and reputation issues, and some of the attitudes being displayed here only reinforce the negative image and reputation the larger community has. Stop being part of the problem.
Maybe in your area, not in mine.
Everyone that knows the game likes the people that play it, the number of truly retarded players is small in Magic from the persons i know, and people quickly learn, theres no "issues" regarding that, unless you set the standards to some of your completly out of reality standards, which will never happen.
In any game that actual has a reasonable % that a player can win, or simply involves them making bad decisions on blocks/plays , thats a fair game, thats a potential good game, and nobody will not accept a handshake from such a reasonable game.
Sure losing sucks, but if a game is truly "bad" do not act like an idiot that did not see that.
Games that involve topdecks and actual "wow" situations actual become pretty great games. Its quite a story to tell how you could lose a game with Citadel Siege and them topdecking a removal turn after turn, which exactly kills you, or the turn 2 Pack Rat you managed to out-race, or the Umezawa's Jitte you could snipe with your Hearth Kami. People might get mad for such things, but its a fine game with interaction and choices, and everyone has something to tell.
If the game was truly great and had many back and forth, spoilers, topdecks and point on finishes, you will have a real feeling "That was a good game" , and the opponent will very much think the same, no matter who won and who lost.
I don't think that's the case though. People are very short sighted in looking at a game. You can have as interactive of a game as you want and your opponent proceeding to draw "too many lands" 20 turns in will still make them say it's not a good game because they were flooded. That's the point. People have this list of situations where something isn't technically a good game that they can cover all of their losses with. Ever miss a land drop that you needed? Mana screwed. Ever draw a land when you didn't need it? Flooded.
I've also seen enough people get salty about a game where they were "winning" and I topdeck "the only card that they could lose to" to know that a lot of people in their tunnel vision don't view that as a "good game". But it doesn't matter. In any sport where handshaking is the norm, it's offered regardless of whether it's a blow out or not. It's only people who have this complicated flowchart of what constitutes a good game that even take "Good Game" to mean "I believe both of us did adequately" and not just equivalent to "Thanks for the games". Which the same people would say "No...no you aren't thankful" or whatever dumb thing they could get upset about with.
As to your "MTG doesn't have an image issue.", it does.I think it's an issue for another topic, but there are a lot of negative stereotypes of Magic players and some of it is rooted in the truth.
I don't think that's the case though. People are very short sighted in looking at a game. You can have as interactive of a game as you want and your opponent proceeding to draw "too many lands" 20 turns in will still make them say it's not a good game because they were flooded. That's the point. People have this list of situations where something isn't technically a good game that they can cover all of their losses with. Ever miss a land drop that you needed? Mana screwed. Ever draw a land when you didn't need it? Flooded.
I don't think that's particularly fair. Yes, there are SOME players who are just plain whiners, and any time they lose they will point at something to explain it. And to people with that mindset, maybe missing one land drop for one turn means that they can blame the entire game on being mana screwed. But there are plenty of reasonable people who understand the difference between a game in which you didn't get to cast your 5 drop until turn 7 vs a game in which you were stuck at 2 lands with 4 morphs in hand and discarded three times.
The disconnect here is that your view of a “good” game has no bearing outside a kitchen table, whereas mine is rooted in the spirit of competitive play, proper manners, and good etiquette — not subjective emotional feelings such as whether or not it was “memorable” or “fun”.
I will be quite honest: I don’t particularly care if my opponent did or did not have fun — I care about whether or not we sparred in a competitive fashion under the guidelines I originally posted. If we conducted ourselves in an adult and sportsman like manner, abiding by the rules of the game, then it was a good game. Fun is subjective; sparring within a prescribed set of guidelines is not.
You are right that I don’t enjoy getting mana screwed. I don’t enjoy it because it hampers my ability to win — which is the entire point of competitive play. What I don’t do is whinge like a child about it. I accept that it happened and after the match I offer to shake my opponents hand, wish them the best of luck in the next round, and say good games. If they are the first to offer then I accept their offer for a handshake, wish them luck, and say good games. That’s the proper thing to do.
Have you ever watched professional tennis? When Roger Federer was at his prime? He would routinely win matches in consecutive sets, barely letting his opponent onto the board. Yet every time after Federer would destroy someone, they would meet at the net and exchange pleasantries because that’s what mature adults do. Did his opponent enjoy getting embarrassed, perhaps on worldwide television, by Roger Federer? I highly doubt it. That also does not justify the refusal to exchange pleasantries or to cop an attitude.
Remember when the Seattle Seahawks won the Super Bowl last year? They crushed the Denver Broncos in an embarrassing fashion. It was not close. Yet those very same Denver Broncos congratulated the winning Seattle team and, in the face of a very emotional defeat, conducted themselves as professionals and mature adults.
This is no different. At all. You do not have to enjoy the match you lost. That lack of enjoyment does not excuse you, or anyone, from conducting themselves as mature adults with proper manners. It simply does not.
As for the image issue: Your area does not constitute the greater Magic community. This is an issue that has been addressed at length by numerous people, including professionals. Yes, the Magic community has image issues, most of which are completely justified based on the way a very significant amount of players conduct themselves (I.E., with offensive language that belittles women and minorities, both racial and sexual, not to mention the propensity of Magic players to use 'retarded' as a pejorative, which is incredibly offensive and insensitive; immaturity, and incredibly poor social skills) and present themselves (I.E., poor personal hygiene and/or lack of proper grooming). The incredibly childish and immature attitudes being displayed by some individuals in this thread do nothing but reinforce the notion that Magic players have poor social skills and are immature.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
The "good" in good game is, in my opinion, referring more to the maturity of the players and their ability to accept misplays and variance in the game, and learn from the experience. The players make it good. If we make exceptions for what constitutes a not-"good game" based on specific instances, like a timely removal spell, then all it takes is someone adopting an immature attitude and finding an excuse to say "nuh-uh, you just got lucky".
The disconnect here is that your view of a “good” game has no bearing outside a kitchen table, whereas mine is rooted in the spirit of competitive play, proper manners, and good etiquette — not subjective emotional feelings such as whether or not it was “memorable” or “fun”.
For me your idea of "good game" is not good game at all, its just the way you expect every game to be from the ground up. People dont cheat point, if they do, they are cheaters, and thats an entire different category of "bad".
So to say the least, every game will be "fair game" , but that does not make it a good game. And not every game can be a good game, as you have to have something to compare it to, and some games are "bad" while others are "good" and some are truly great (and you will tell the story of that game years after years, then you know what a truly "great" game was, they become legend for you and your friends that might hear them over and over again).
I will be quite honest: I don’t particularly care if my opponent did or did not have fun — I care about whether or not we sparred in a competitive fashion under the guidelines I originally posted. If we conducted ourselves in an adult and sportsman like manner, abiding by the rules of the game, then it was a good game. Fun is subjective; sparring within a prescribed set of guidelines is not.
Well see, some actual care for fun, winning is fun, losing is less fun, but in the end, a "good game" will be enjoyable winning or not.
If you just get beaten without any glimmer of hope, thats just free, thats not enjoyable, not fun, and totally not a "good" game. Handshake in such a situation is simply bad, and its just a matter of what type of human the other is how they will take it.
You are right that I don’t enjoy getting mana screwed. I don’t enjoy it because it hampers my ability to win — which is the entire point of competitive play. What I don’t do is whinge like a child about it. I accept that it happened and after the match I offer to shake my opponents hand, wish them the best of luck in the next round, and say good games. If they are the first to offer then I accept their offer for a handshake, wish them luck, and say good games. That’s the proper thing to do.
"Proper thing to do" is fairly from the top. I tell you the truth, in my region, its VERY VERY rare that someone will offer a handshake, its so rare, that you can probably name the people that did it to you.
If you play at a higher level, with proper prices, you might get into it, as you are "supposed to" , but its funny how you put it as the "proper thing to do" , as it is important (its not, to say the least).
Have you ever watched professional tennis? When Roger Federer was at his prime? He would routinely win matches in consecutive sets, barely letting his opponent onto the board. Yet every time after Federer would destroy someone, they would meet at the net and exchange pleasantries because that’s what mature adults do. Did his opponent enjoy getting embarrassed, perhaps on worldwide television, by Roger Federer? I highly doubt it. That also does not justify the refusal to exchange pleasantries or to cop an attitude.
Well, i cant say i watched any tennis match from start to end, but "sport" is something that simply has no or minimal amount of randomnes to it. Its entirely you and what you can do. If you lose, they are probably better, and if you are salty, its just because you are worse than them (or you slipped, or whatever).
Anyway, handshake in sports is fine, as its an actual competition without much luck.
Magic is a nice game, but keep it real, its not "sport" , even in high competitive levels, while this does not mean you cant put much effort into this game, and it also does not make it any "worse" than sports, its a card game, we know that, it has randomness, we know that, we will lose and win by luck, we know that, but we are human and we will get salty if we lose just because lady luck really unloaded all upon us in one go (and then i just dont want any random dude handshake, you got your "free" win, go in peace, UNLESS the game was in other ways entertaining, be it by the small talk with that person or whatever, that might upgrade the otherwise crappy game).
Remember when the Seattle Seahawks won the Super Bowl last year?
I probably know the minimal amount of football possible, its simply non existing sport in europe.
They crushed the Denver Broncos in an embarrassing fashion. It was not close. Yet those very same Denver Broncos congratulated the winning Seattle team and, in the face of a very emotional defeat, conducted themselves as professionals and mature adults.
High payed professionals in sport get enough money and actual "penalty" if they dont. Managment might say "ey shake their hands, if you want to or not !" , who knows, in the end, winning is nice and cool, but its a job, and we all act different in our jobs.
Magic is "fun" , its a hobby. We are free to act as we want to. Nobody is forced to accept a handshake, and it would be a very very bad world if we would be.
This is no different. At all. You do not have to enjoy the match you lost. That lack of enjoyment does not excuse you, or anyone, from conducting themselves as mature adults with proper manners. It simply does not.
Oh "proper manners" , very harsh. As i said, in my area its incredible rare that someone will jump in and offer a handshake. The people that do so, are usually "new" , and quickly avoid that habbit, as its time consuming, completly unnecessary and will just make people salty if used in the wrong situations ; it simply has no positive effect, you can do much better with fitting words, that actual reflect the game and how it went.
If someone loses for example, we just empty our hands , if we are flooded, the opponent will see our 7 lands in hand, its glass clear that this was not a good game, it was plain unlucky and the "proper" respond is "sorry for your unlucky draw" , helps a lot more than "GG, handshake !" (yea f off idiot, thats what i am thinking in that situation).
As for the image issue: Your area does not constitute the greater Magic community.
It very clearly does not. I might be way more lucky , or we are simply way less about some obscure rituals, like the handshake, and actual care about having as much "fun" as possible.
Maybe the competitive idea does not really help people to make the game more enjoyable for them and others. And i totally would not feel comfortable if every opponent would regardless of the game offer me a handshake after "every match".
And maybe its a good idea to avoid "touching" at all if you can, its not allways the best idea and some simply dont like it.
This is an issue that has been addressed at length by numerous people, including professionals. Yes, the Magic community has image issues, most of which are completely justified based on the way a very significant amount of players conduct themselves (I.E., with offensive language that belittles women and minorities, both racial and sexual, not to mention the propensity of Magic players to use 'retarded' as a pejorative, which is incredibly offensive and insensitive; immaturity, and incredibly poor social skills) and present themselves (I.E., poor personal hygiene and/or lack of proper grooming).
We have a fair deal of women in our store, girlfriends most of the time of someone that also plays. They are fine, and our ~age is probably around 25 anyway, which might get around any teenager and kids that might simply not know better (and we get some kids, which are remarkably smart for their age) ; it might also be connected to my city is full of students and thats also a big part of players (and the nerdy kind of student aswell).
The "retard" deal is something that exists for us aswell, but in the end, nobody actual cares, nobody really uses it offensive at all, and nobody is hurt (and we actual have some physic. and mentally challenged people that play in our store, PreRelease or Fnm, usually totally fine, and the same way we might joke about anybody else, we joke about them too, which actual makes them more part of the troop instead of "special", which i think is a good thing).
*The deal with cursing and what not might be a real american dilema, other countries might not care that much about it, and its simply not a big thing here at all (as we dont have super extremes, that might curse in every sentence etc.)
The incredibly childish and immature attitudes being displayed by some individuals in this thread do nothing but reinforce the notion that Magic players have poor social skills and are immature.
Well some are probably childish, as they are actual kids, or thats simply how they are used to phrase and get around.
I mean, in the end, you have to know your play group, you have to get a feeling on the people you are playing with. Some might get along, some might not fit together.
I was in stores far from my city, i could not play another round as i simply hated everyones attidude, so i drop, get away and never turn back, done.
Certainly cant solve every problem in the world, but just dont expect people to see everything as you do. And "proper manners" , is something that is as subjective as we have humans on this planet.
For me, offering a handshake is simply not "normal" , and if i feel the game was crap, i will tell my opponent, and if they just want to tease me, they will get a proper response (which is not a handshake, i can assure you).
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
It's a game, you shake at the end and that is the end of it. It is hard when your opponent is being smug but those are the ones which matter most.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I'm highly competitive, but I'm also highly polite and try like mad to be humble. I often find that when I do get beat by someone, I'm genuinely pleased for that person haha! xP
What I have a bigger issue with...is when I'm the one who beats my opponents without them really ever having a chance. I sometimes feel bad about it, cause when I'm playing competitively...I play absolutely to win. Cut throat. I've no problem playing cards/combos/moves that a casual player would find 'mean'. Mana screwed? Cool! Here, let me boomerang that land for you!...
I am socially awkward, have struggled with social anxieties for most my life...and so I just feel very at odds when I beat the heck out of someone in a match. I always struggle on what to say or how to act so that I don't come across as gloating, or like an a** hole. I usually feel bad for the person lol.
No one on the "Good game is awful!" camp has been able to give a good definition of what "good game" actually means. If someone steamrolls you, it apparently isn't a good game. If someone beats you in a close match, it's a "lucky topdeck". People also seem to only look at their side of the equation when it comes to this. Maybe your opponent's deck would have beaten you even MORE badly if they hadn't had a bad draw like they did. Maybe your opponent built a deck that has less variance in it than yours. People tend to not blame their shady keeps but rather their next draws. People will overextend into a board wipe and then blame variance when they can't cobble together good creatures after that.
The "GG" at the wrong time happens more often in Limited than in constructed i would suppose.
Situations that become at least awkward involve games like this:
"You keep a 2 land hand on the draw." and you simply never draw the 3rd land, not after 10+ turns, where your opponent finally kills you after absolute no interaction at all (or just completly meaningless jump blockers, which they kill with premium removal, which would be a horrible play in any situation in which you actual draw the 3rd land).
So chances for that to be real are fairly small, but it happens, and in some cases, its shady shuffling from your opponent or what not, the doubt allways exists.
If your opponent kills you and right away puts his hand with a smile in your face "Good game !" , i just think "Yea, totally, god damn it ... "
Its not a good game, its totally not, and saying it is at least "stupid" and in the worst case its an insult, in the best case they just dont know any better, but even then i would not shake the hand and actual explain "Dude, i was on 2 lands the whole game and even after 10 draws did not get a 3rd land ... ".
Losing is fine, if the game actual has something to work with. Some games do not have any interaction, and the game is plain bad. Everyone knows the game was bad, and the reasonable answer as a winner in such a situation would be something along the lines "Sorry that you did not draw your 3rd land." and THEN the beaten player will at least accept that the opponent has any half decent observation of what happened in that game and will potentially offer a hand "as the loser" , which ends in a much better happy ending than the winner rubbing it in the super unlucky loser.
The other extreme involves flooding extremly. If you have your hand with 3 cards 4 lands and simply draw 10+ lands in a row, you will probably lose equally badly and have no reasonable chance of winning. So here again, if they just push their hand in your face "Good game !" it feels like an insult, how can they actual believe this was a good game ? Are they completly stupid ?
If such a scenario happens against players you know, you might still handshake out of friendship and call it a day (some even drop after such crap, as they tilt that hard).
If the other player is more of a newbie or did beat you with real bad cards, it hurts more, as the doubt is in your head "i just had to draw that 3rd land, how unrealistic unlucky was that ?". And situations like that are what people absolute hate about the variance of the game and you simply have to be a newbie to jump in and "Good game" such a game, its not a good game, totally not, its definition of NOT a good game.
Thats what a fair deal of people are talking about if they do not accept a handshake.
In any game that actual has a reasonable % that a player can win, or simply involves them making bad decisions on blocks/plays , thats a fair game, thats a potential good game, and nobody will not accept a handshake from such a reasonable game.
Sure losing sucks, but if a game is truly "bad" do not act like an idiot that did not see that.
Games that involve topdecks and actual "wow" situations actual become pretty great games. Its quite a story to tell how you could lose a game with Citadel Siege and them topdecking a removal turn after turn, which exactly kills you, or the turn 2 Pack Rat you managed to out-race, or the Umezawa's Jitte you could snipe with your Hearth Kami. People might get mad for such things, but its a fine game with interaction and choices, and everyone has something to tell.
If the game was truly great and had many back and forth, spoilers, topdecks and point on finishes, you will have a real feeling "That was a good game" , and the opponent will very much think the same, no matter who won and who lost.
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I do not say good game if the game was not good for either player in real life. Online, it is a courtesy to let the player know he or she won.
The concept that a game can only be "good" when the loser loses under certain circumstances (must have had an equal chance to win, no mana screw, no mana flood, must draw well, et al) is one of the most self-centred and immature things I have heard in some time from this community. The world does not revolve around any one person, so this self-centred immaturity is, point blank, without justification and unacceptable. It is borderline unsportsmanlike as well.
The Magic community as a whole has massive image and reputation issues, and some of the attitudes being displayed here only reinforce the negative image and reputation the larger community has. Stop being part of the problem.
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When opponent is more receptive to my plight (if I get mana screwed, flooded, etc.) I'm more likely to be receptive to a "good game" and return the favor.
Saying "sorry about your issues" is a great start IMO. When my opponent does little things like that, I will almost always respond with a "good game" or apologize if I feel like I'm being "salty".
Occasionally; however, you run into players that get super emotional when they win (especially newer, younger players).
Some people can come across as "smug" even if it's not intentional.
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Your view of "good" is way different than that of others, and just because you think that is the way, does not make it the only right way.
I mean, if you played magic for some time, you will KNOW that the world does not work like you want it to be.
The only thing that people truly want is to have fun with the game and the people you play with.
Nobody truly "accepts" the randomness in the game, especially not the newbies. Some play for the wins, they cheat to win, and the fun is only to win, thats bad no question, but people do that.
Some just come to play magic, they dont care for winning at all. But they totally care for a "good games" , which are memorable and fun. One-sided beatdowns are not fun at all, nobody likes them and nobody enjoys that kind of game.
And i will bet everyone that gets so unlucky in a bunch of events in a row will be so salty, to quit the game for some time.
Its a game, its not a fight to the death and theres totally no "honor" in Magic, dont make it sound like its more than it is.
The deal with cheating is outside of the realm of definition of how a single game actual feels for the player.
Its totally possible that you get downright cheated to the ground, without noticing it, and you might totally enjoy that game.
Ofcourse, if you notice someone is cheating, you will probably not like that person, and especially if you lose, you will feel certainly worse about it, and that without question hurts a community as a whole.
BUT, for a single game, its simply the basis that everyone plays by the rules. Doing so does NOT make it a good game, it just does not ruin it.
Everyone has to play by the rules, nobody is going to get rewarded for doing so.
If you truly want to tell me that you "enjoy" games in which you are stuck at 2 mana and never get to play anything and just lose for nothing but the incredible unlucky event that you did not draw a single land in 10+ cards ; sure, have your fun, but dont expect everyone to see it the same way.
People HATE it to get manascrewd. Theres reasonable whining and theres unreasonable whining.
You will allways have mana problems in some way, and thats part of the game. And even "good games" involve mana screwd and mana flood, if the game is not stopped to be completly 1-sided.
A "good game" defines itself by two players actual playing the game against an opponent. If only 1 person is playing the game and the other cant do anything, thats absolutely NOT a good game, as thats absolutely NOT enjoyable at all.
WotC has a similiar view of this aswell and truly everyone that plays the game for a bunch of time will know how frustrating a game is in which you truly cant do anything. You want to avoid this games, as they are bad, thats why we get mechanics to work around them, help to avoid them, in the end produce more "good games" , more enjoyable games.
If you want so, you can replace "good game" with "This was an enjoyable game". Winning or losing does not matter, is has to be fun to play and to have fun, you have to have some form of interaction, otherwise you just play by yourself.
Maybe in your area, not in mine.
Everyone that knows the game likes the people that play it, the number of truly retarded players is small in Magic from the persons i know, and people quickly learn, theres no "issues" regarding that, unless you set the standards to some of your completly out of reality standards, which will never happen.
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I don't think that's the case though. People are very short sighted in looking at a game. You can have as interactive of a game as you want and your opponent proceeding to draw "too many lands" 20 turns in will still make them say it's not a good game because they were flooded. That's the point. People have this list of situations where something isn't technically a good game that they can cover all of their losses with. Ever miss a land drop that you needed? Mana screwed. Ever draw a land when you didn't need it? Flooded.
I've also seen enough people get salty about a game where they were "winning" and I topdeck "the only card that they could lose to" to know that a lot of people in their tunnel vision don't view that as a "good game". But it doesn't matter. In any sport where handshaking is the norm, it's offered regardless of whether it's a blow out or not. It's only people who have this complicated flowchart of what constitutes a good game that even take "Good Game" to mean "I believe both of us did adequately" and not just equivalent to "Thanks for the games". Which the same people would say "No...no you aren't thankful" or whatever dumb thing they could get upset about with.
As to your "MTG doesn't have an image issue.", it does.I think it's an issue for another topic, but there are a lot of negative stereotypes of Magic players and some of it is rooted in the truth.
I don't think that's particularly fair. Yes, there are SOME players who are just plain whiners, and any time they lose they will point at something to explain it. And to people with that mindset, maybe missing one land drop for one turn means that they can blame the entire game on being mana screwed. But there are plenty of reasonable people who understand the difference between a game in which you didn't get to cast your 5 drop until turn 7 vs a game in which you were stuck at 2 lands with 4 morphs in hand and discarded three times.
The disconnect here is that your view of a “good” game has no bearing outside a kitchen table, whereas mine is rooted in the spirit of competitive play, proper manners, and good etiquette — not subjective emotional feelings such as whether or not it was “memorable” or “fun”.
I will be quite honest: I don’t particularly care if my opponent did or did not have fun — I care about whether or not we sparred in a competitive fashion under the guidelines I originally posted. If we conducted ourselves in an adult and sportsman like manner, abiding by the rules of the game, then it was a good game. Fun is subjective; sparring within a prescribed set of guidelines is not.
You are right that I don’t enjoy getting mana screwed. I don’t enjoy it because it hampers my ability to win — which is the entire point of competitive play. What I don’t do is whinge like a child about it. I accept that it happened and after the match I offer to shake my opponents hand, wish them the best of luck in the next round, and say good games. If they are the first to offer then I accept their offer for a handshake, wish them luck, and say good games. That’s the proper thing to do.
Have you ever watched professional tennis? When Roger Federer was at his prime? He would routinely win matches in consecutive sets, barely letting his opponent onto the board. Yet every time after Federer would destroy someone, they would meet at the net and exchange pleasantries because that’s what mature adults do. Did his opponent enjoy getting embarrassed, perhaps on worldwide television, by Roger Federer? I highly doubt it. That also does not justify the refusal to exchange pleasantries or to cop an attitude.
Remember when the Seattle Seahawks won the Super Bowl last year? They crushed the Denver Broncos in an embarrassing fashion. It was not close. Yet those very same Denver Broncos congratulated the winning Seattle team and, in the face of a very emotional defeat, conducted themselves as professionals and mature adults.
This is no different. At all. You do not have to enjoy the match you lost. That lack of enjoyment does not excuse you, or anyone, from conducting themselves as mature adults with proper manners. It simply does not.
As for the image issue: Your area does not constitute the greater Magic community. This is an issue that has been addressed at length by numerous people, including professionals. Yes, the Magic community has image issues, most of which are completely justified based on the way a very significant amount of players conduct themselves (I.E., with offensive language that belittles women and minorities, both racial and sexual, not to mention the propensity of Magic players to use 'retarded' as a pejorative, which is incredibly offensive and insensitive; immaturity, and incredibly poor social skills) and present themselves (I.E., poor personal hygiene and/or lack of proper grooming). The incredibly childish and immature attitudes being displayed by some individuals in this thread do nothing but reinforce the notion that Magic players have poor social skills and are immature.
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For me your idea of "good game" is not good game at all, its just the way you expect every game to be from the ground up. People dont cheat point, if they do, they are cheaters, and thats an entire different category of "bad".
So to say the least, every game will be "fair game" , but that does not make it a good game. And not every game can be a good game, as you have to have something to compare it to, and some games are "bad" while others are "good" and some are truly great (and you will tell the story of that game years after years, then you know what a truly "great" game was, they become legend for you and your friends that might hear them over and over again).
Well see, some actual care for fun, winning is fun, losing is less fun, but in the end, a "good game" will be enjoyable winning or not.
If you just get beaten without any glimmer of hope, thats just free, thats not enjoyable, not fun, and totally not a "good" game. Handshake in such a situation is simply bad, and its just a matter of what type of human the other is how they will take it.
"Proper thing to do" is fairly from the top. I tell you the truth, in my region, its VERY VERY rare that someone will offer a handshake, its so rare, that you can probably name the people that did it to you.
If you play at a higher level, with proper prices, you might get into it, as you are "supposed to" , but its funny how you put it as the "proper thing to do" , as it is important (its not, to say the least).
Well, i cant say i watched any tennis match from start to end, but "sport" is something that simply has no or minimal amount of randomnes to it. Its entirely you and what you can do. If you lose, they are probably better, and if you are salty, its just because you are worse than them (or you slipped, or whatever).
Anyway, handshake in sports is fine, as its an actual competition without much luck.
Magic is a nice game, but keep it real, its not "sport" , even in high competitive levels, while this does not mean you cant put much effort into this game, and it also does not make it any "worse" than sports, its a card game, we know that, it has randomness, we know that, we will lose and win by luck, we know that, but we are human and we will get salty if we lose just because lady luck really unloaded all upon us in one go (and then i just dont want any random dude handshake, you got your "free" win, go in peace, UNLESS the game was in other ways entertaining, be it by the small talk with that person or whatever, that might upgrade the otherwise crappy game).
I probably know the minimal amount of football possible, its simply non existing sport in europe.
High payed professionals in sport get enough money and actual "penalty" if they dont. Managment might say "ey shake their hands, if you want to or not !" , who knows, in the end, winning is nice and cool, but its a job, and we all act different in our jobs.
Magic is "fun" , its a hobby. We are free to act as we want to. Nobody is forced to accept a handshake, and it would be a very very bad world if we would be.
Oh "proper manners" , very harsh. As i said, in my area its incredible rare that someone will jump in and offer a handshake. The people that do so, are usually "new" , and quickly avoid that habbit, as its time consuming, completly unnecessary and will just make people salty if used in the wrong situations ; it simply has no positive effect, you can do much better with fitting words, that actual reflect the game and how it went.
If someone loses for example, we just empty our hands , if we are flooded, the opponent will see our 7 lands in hand, its glass clear that this was not a good game, it was plain unlucky and the "proper" respond is "sorry for your unlucky draw" , helps a lot more than "GG, handshake !" (yea f off idiot, thats what i am thinking in that situation).
It very clearly does not. I might be way more lucky , or we are simply way less about some obscure rituals, like the handshake, and actual care about having as much "fun" as possible.
Maybe the competitive idea does not really help people to make the game more enjoyable for them and others. And i totally would not feel comfortable if every opponent would regardless of the game offer me a handshake after "every match".
And maybe its a good idea to avoid "touching" at all if you can, its not allways the best idea and some simply dont like it.
We have a fair deal of women in our store, girlfriends most of the time of someone that also plays. They are fine, and our ~age is probably around 25 anyway, which might get around any teenager and kids that might simply not know better (and we get some kids, which are remarkably smart for their age) ; it might also be connected to my city is full of students and thats also a big part of players (and the nerdy kind of student aswell).
The "retard" deal is something that exists for us aswell, but in the end, nobody actual cares, nobody really uses it offensive at all, and nobody is hurt (and we actual have some physic. and mentally challenged people that play in our store, PreRelease or Fnm, usually totally fine, and the same way we might joke about anybody else, we joke about them too, which actual makes them more part of the troop instead of "special", which i think is a good thing).
*The deal with cursing and what not might be a real american dilema, other countries might not care that much about it, and its simply not a big thing here at all (as we dont have super extremes, that might curse in every sentence etc.)
Well some are probably childish, as they are actual kids, or thats simply how they are used to phrase and get around.
I mean, in the end, you have to know your play group, you have to get a feeling on the people you are playing with. Some might get along, some might not fit together.
I was in stores far from my city, i could not play another round as i simply hated everyones attidude, so i drop, get away and never turn back, done.
Certainly cant solve every problem in the world, but just dont expect people to see everything as you do. And "proper manners" , is something that is as subjective as we have humans on this planet.
For me, offering a handshake is simply not "normal" , and if i feel the game was crap, i will tell my opponent, and if they just want to tease me, they will get a proper response (which is not a handshake, i can assure you).
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