I have more of an issue with the style of hand shakes I get from MtG players. Win or lose, 9 times out of 10 I get handed a dead fish I'm supposed to pretend is a hand. Seriously people learn how to give a good handshake!
And you don't think an action that essentially tells someone you defeated "Congratulations! You lost to me!" is poor sportsmanship?
Congratulating someone on a win? Fine. Congratulating someone on a loss? That's the poor sportsmanship.
Since when is a handshake a congratulatory gesture? People use them to say hello or goodbye, to signify agreements, to convey trust and respect. Im not even really a fan of handshakes myself, but this is just getting silly.
And I dont see how "good game" could be construed as a congratulatory phrase either. Even if someone insisted on incorrectly interpreting the individual words literally, the most they can get out of it is simply a statement.
Nobody is rubbing your face in anything. They are saying "the game is over now, I respect you as a fellow player".
Wait, who told you a handshake means "congratulations"? Now we're just getting to new levels of absurdity. I don't think I've ever given a congratulations handshake. I've said "congratulations" but I don't think it was accompanied by a handshake.
I will offer the handshake, win or lose and say good game. If you freak out I will call a judge on you for unsportsmanlike conduct and then there can be a record of your childish behavior. Eventually a ban might keep you away from the polite and kind members of the MTG community.
I would say to some here that they should not read too much into when someone says, "good game." What someone "meant" by that could be very different and even the exact opposite of how you took it.
I've lost to the newest players in the game. I've (rarely) beaten some of the best in the game. This tends to humble you and you realize that variance is always going to be a huge part of the game. You can learn to embrace the skill level AND the variance (which I hated for many years) in the game. After all, if there was no variance, you could never beat a better player.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
There's really no one-size-fits-all-situations rule. There's always going to be edge cases.
I would strongly recommend paying attention to your opponent, seeing how they're behaving, and taking their feelings into account when you go into the post-game ritual. I think most people will get better results doing that than simply insisting on one universal rule - although I will admit that most of your post-games are going to play out largely the same regardless.
I don't get the obsession with handshakes and their meaning from certain parts of the Magic community. Honestly, until I came onto MTGS, I never even thought about this sort of thing. I've seen this thread pop up every now and then and it's always weird. Handshakes are just something that you do after a good game, be it in a physical sport or a game at home with friends. I'm just amazed at the wild spins that are put onto something so simple. It's like some of you don't have a clue on what the actual concept of sportsmanship is. Even if you get destroyed by 30+ points in a game of basketball, you still need to show respect to your opponent by shaking their hands for playing a game with you guys.
It's one thing if the guy is an utter prick during a game (whatever game or sport), but it's another if it's just a normal dude who happened to crush you. I don't think you can rightfully just infer some malicious intent or them acting like a jerk if there's nothing else to base it off aside from offering a handshake. Like come on, how does that make any sense? Do you guys just have like a metric ton of jerks populating your LGS or something?
I dont say GG unless it really was a good game. If we where back and forth games and it all hanged in the balance for 40 minutes only for me to topdeck exactly what I needed to win then the GG is justified but if he just ROFL stomps me or I get stuck on two lands for 4 turns then I would not extend the GG. This is not a Computer Game the GG is not as big of an institution as it is in those types of games.
Can we summarize this entire discussion as "Don't be a dick, it's a card game, mellow out"
It is a game sure but is one we have all put in a sizeable amount of time, effort and money into so an emotional response when it goes bad is not entirely unreasonable.
I don't enjoy when somebody says "GG" or "Good Game" when the game is obviously 1-sided. As for the handshake, that is something I always do; good or bad.
I always offer the handshake when I lose, and say good match - Regardless of how it went. When I win, I do not offer the handshake, especially if it were a one sided affair.
Preface: I am a casual player. I am not a pro, nor ever claim to be.
I played a guy a few months back. I "Good gamed" a game where he was mana screwed-- clearly not trying to add bad intentions-- and he said "no it was not" with clear annoyance. The following game was fairly close, ending with him winning a 7-0 life game. He once again rebuffed my "good game". Game 3, I was flooded, and lost, saying nothing before being taunted.
If you guys think that this is how Magic should be played, I don't want to play against you.
I dont say GG unless it really was a good game. If we where back and forth games and it all hanged in the balance for 40 minutes only for me to topdeck exactly what I needed to win then the GG is justified but if he just ROFL stomps me or I get stuck on two lands for 4 turns then I would not extend the GG. This is not a Computer Game the GG is not as big of an institution as it is in those types of games.
Can we summarize this entire discussion as "Don't be a dick, it's a card game, mellow out"
It is a game sure but is one we have all put in a sizeable amount of time, effort and money into so an emotional response when it goes bad is not entirely unreasonable.
No, that's not reasonable actually. To become angry at your opponent is not something found in other competitive games, look at professional sports, or professional chess. After grand matches/games, they shake the other team's hand, because of maturity. Would you say you've invested more than they?
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
i usually offer my handshake if i'm on the losing end...just goes to show that i'm not a bitter loser....
however, if I win, I don't offer handshake. but of all thegames i've played (i must've played with great people), if they lose, they usually offer their handshake right after the match or right before conceding...
Discussions and reactions of some people here are precisely the reason I do not play competitive magic. Whenever I enter an official MtG event, the room is oozing with socially inept people. Magic apparently is the only individual game in the world where handshakes need to be discussed. Chess, checkers, tennis, fencing, judo etc etc. Played it all and everywhere, the common courtesy is that you shake hands. It's culturally defined behavior in a sporting environment. Heck, even in fighting sports where you kick the crap out of people and want them to break their nose, you start and end with the equivalent of a handshake (tap on the shoulder, a short hug or anything). But no, not magic. No, here people state 'it's not hygienic', or 'it wasn't a gg' or 'the winner acted like a douche'.
No wonder people look at me with a "WTF do you play magic?" Isn't that for socially inept nerds? Discussions like this make me agree with them.
A hand shake at the beginning of the game is quite a bit different then a hand shake at the end of the game
After a brutal match win, I generally let my opponent offer up the "Good Games" or the hand shake, since it does come off as you being smug when they were obviously not good games. Now, when I'm on the receiving end of a brutal match, I try to offer a handshake because I don't want to take away from they're victory by being a dick about getting trounced; that's Magic.
A hand shake at the beginning of the game is quite a bit different then a hand shake at the end of the game
Hence I said at the start and at the end. In most sports (basically 100% of any sport involving 2 players and a ball) you handshake after the game.
A) MTG is not a sport. Nor does it involve a ball.
B) I've never thought hand shaking or saying "good game" was necessary. Not saying "good game" or shaking hands is not bad etiquette.
On the flip side, saying "good game" or offering the shake prematurely or after you win a brutal game where your opponent never played magic... is very much bad etiquette.
I was on the receiving end of a swift back-to-back beatdown (one due to mana issues) at a FKK draft. I was visibly tilting, admittedly, but then he offers his hand and says "good games". Now, we both know they were awful games. Awful meaning non-competitive. I stared at his hand for a few seconds and, reluctantly, shook it. I really didn't want to.
I can tell you that I don't offer my hand if I demolish an opponent--the only thing I'll say is "good luck in the next round". This is especially true if they obviously couldn't play their deck due to mana issues. Seems reasonable. I suppose you could argue that any refusal or non-offer is unsportsmanlike, but I would then argue that there are certain scenarios where conventional sportsmanship is actually unsportsmanlike.
How would you react when an opponent just destroys you and then says "good game" and offers his hand. Do you shake it without hesitation? Refuse to shake? Are you wrong for not shaking in this scenario? Are they wrong for offering?
I'll typically shake my head, take their hand, shake it, and say "It wasn't a good game. But best luck in your deck round".
A hand shake at the beginning of the game is quite a bit different then a hand shake at the end of the game
Hence I said at the start and at the end. In most sports (basically 100% of any sport involving 2 players and a ball) you handshake after the game.
A) MTG is not a sport. Nor does it involve a ball.
B) I've never thought hand shaking or saying "good game" was necessary. Not saying "good game" or shaking hands is not bad etiquette.
On the flip side, saying "good game" or offering the shake prematurely or after you win a brutal game where your opponent never played magic... is very much bad etiquette.
Sanctioned MtG tournaments can be consired a sports, just like darts. Any competitive environment is. And in any competitive environment, handshakes, nods, bows etc are considered etiquette. Not doing it will give you frowns and is considered bad etiquette everywhere. Except in MtG apparently. Heck, in chess you might be given a game loss if you refuse to shake hands. And that's chess!
Darts are not a sport... 0_o. Of course that's another debate... ill save for another time.
Is shaking hands good etiquette? sure. But the failure to shake hands does not indicate bad etiquette either.
Is shaking hands good etiquette? sure. But the failure to shake hands does not indicate bad etiquette either.
And I think it is. Let's agree to disagree
Two wrongs don't make a right though. Even if I were to agree that failure to shake hands is bad etiquette, it is the loosing person's option to do so.
If you win and offer your hand... that's just as bad etiquette.
[quote from="Pigglebee »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/597669-game-etiquette-offering-to-shake-after-a-brutal?comment=141"][quote from="axman »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/597669-game-etiquette-offering-to-shake-after-a-brutal?comment=140"]
Two wrongs don't make a right though. Even if I were to agree that failure to shake hands is bad etiquette, it is the loosing person's option to do so.
If you win and offer your hand... that's just as bad etiquette.
Only in games like Magic where good etiquette apparently is shady. In all other sports/games you can extend your hand first even as winner since it's part of the end of game ritual. Whether you say 'gg' or 'thanks for the game' is something else though. I wouldn't say 'gg' if it wasn't a gg. Thanks for the game is always neutral.
Depends on the game. In football, for example, you often see the loosing side extend hands first.
In games like soccer, both sides typically line up.
Let's put it this way. A soccer team looses terribly and walks off the field.
You're telling me it's good etiquette if you walk over to the team to "Shake their hand"?
Sometimes I wonder if when a Magic player goes to play at a Poker competition and loses, does he swear at the winner, flip the table and set fire to the casino....
Sometimes I wonder if when a Magic player goes to play at a Poker competition and loses, does he swear at the winner, flip the table and set fire to the casino....
Depends on whether that poker player is Phil Hellmuth or not...
On a more serious note: etiquette in Magic is actually more comparable to poker than anything else. Now that you mention it.
(and a vast majority of people who enjoy magic, also enjoy poker).
Depends on the game. In football, for example, you often see the loosing side extend hands first.
In games like soccer, both sides typically line up.
Let's put it this way. A soccer team looses terribly and walks off the field.
You're telling me it's good etiquette if you walk over to the team to "Shake their hand"?
Obviously there are gradations and different responses to different scenarios. Obviously if my opponent scoops, is visibly upset, and jumps up and walks away, I'm not going to chase after him/her to try and get a good game handshake in. Similarly, if I am playing football and the entire other team just sprints for the sideline after time runs out and doesn't line up, I won't chase after them either. Of course, in both of these situations the losers are demonstrating that they are incredibly rude and very poor sports.
Also, I never played football competitively, but have played in a ton of flag football leagues (the equivalent of the vast majority of magic events) and both teams line up for the good game high fives after every match, we don't wait to make sure the losing team wants to do it first (mostly because no one gets so salty or are such poor sports when they lose). Where do you play football? O.o
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Since when is a handshake a congratulatory gesture? People use them to say hello or goodbye, to signify agreements, to convey trust and respect. Im not even really a fan of handshakes myself, but this is just getting silly.
And I dont see how "good game" could be construed as a congratulatory phrase either. Even if someone insisted on incorrectly interpreting the individual words literally, the most they can get out of it is simply a statement.
Nobody is rubbing your face in anything. They are saying "the game is over now, I respect you as a fellow player".
I will offer the handshake, win or lose and say good game. If you freak out I will call a judge on you for unsportsmanlike conduct and then there can be a record of your childish behavior. Eventually a ban might keep you away from the polite and kind members of the MTG community.
I've lost to the newest players in the game. I've (rarely) beaten some of the best in the game. This tends to humble you and you realize that variance is always going to be a huge part of the game. You can learn to embrace the skill level AND the variance (which I hated for many years) in the game. After all, if there was no variance, you could never beat a better player.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I would strongly recommend paying attention to your opponent, seeing how they're behaving, and taking their feelings into account when you go into the post-game ritual. I think most people will get better results doing that than simply insisting on one universal rule - although I will admit that most of your post-games are going to play out largely the same regardless.
It's one thing if the guy is an utter prick during a game (whatever game or sport), but it's another if it's just a normal dude who happened to crush you. I don't think you can rightfully just infer some malicious intent or them acting like a jerk if there's nothing else to base it off aside from offering a handshake. Like come on, how does that make any sense? Do you guys just have like a metric ton of jerks populating your LGS or something?
..it's a dick.
EDIT: Sorry. Immaturity overload.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
It is a game sure but is one we have all put in a sizeable amount of time, effort and money into so an emotional response when it goes bad is not entirely unreasonable.
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
I played a guy a few months back. I "Good gamed" a game where he was mana screwed-- clearly not trying to add bad intentions-- and he said "no it was not" with clear annoyance. The following game was fairly close, ending with him winning a 7-0 life game. He once again rebuffed my "good game". Game 3, I was flooded, and lost, saying nothing before being taunted.
If you guys think that this is how Magic should be played, I don't want to play against you.
No, that's not reasonable actually. To become angry at your opponent is not something found in other competitive games, look at professional sports, or professional chess. After grand matches/games, they shake the other team's hand, because of maturity. Would you say you've invested more than they?
however, if I win, I don't offer handshake. but of all thegames i've played (i must've played with great people), if they lose, they usually offer their handshake right after the match or right before conceding...
A hand shake at the beginning of the game is quite a bit different then a hand shake at the end of the game
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
A) MTG is not a sport. Nor does it involve a ball.
B) I've never thought hand shaking or saying "good game" was necessary. Not saying "good game" or shaking hands is not bad etiquette.
On the flip side, saying "good game" or offering the shake prematurely or after you win a brutal game where your opponent never played magic... is very much bad etiquette.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'll typically shake my head, take their hand, shake it, and say "It wasn't a good game. But best luck in your deck round".
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Darts are not a sport... 0_o. Of course that's another debate... ill save for another time.
Is shaking hands good etiquette? sure. But the failure to shake hands does not indicate bad etiquette either.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Two wrongs don't make a right though. Even if I were to agree that failure to shake hands is bad etiquette, it is the loosing person's option to do so.
If you win and offer your hand... that's just as bad etiquette.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Depends on the game. In football, for example, you often see the loosing side extend hands first.
In games like soccer, both sides typically line up.
Let's put it this way. A soccer team looses terribly and walks off the field.
You're telling me it's good etiquette if you walk over to the team to "Shake their hand"?
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Depends on whether that poker player is Phil Hellmuth or not...
On a more serious note: etiquette in Magic is actually more comparable to poker than anything else. Now that you mention it.
(and a vast majority of people who enjoy magic, also enjoy poker).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Wow. That's incredibly rude. Thanks for making magic a worse place for everyone.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Obviously there are gradations and different responses to different scenarios. Obviously if my opponent scoops, is visibly upset, and jumps up and walks away, I'm not going to chase after him/her to try and get a good game handshake in. Similarly, if I am playing football and the entire other team just sprints for the sideline after time runs out and doesn't line up, I won't chase after them either. Of course, in both of these situations the losers are demonstrating that they are incredibly rude and very poor sports.
Also, I never played football competitively, but have played in a ton of flag football leagues (the equivalent of the vast majority of magic events) and both teams line up for the good game high fives after every match, we don't wait to make sure the losing team wants to do it first (mostly because no one gets so salty or are such poor sports when they lose). Where do you play football? O.o
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588