Because as matt tabak put it one time, when you tap your forests you should just get green mana. In other words mana abilities are just parts of the game that you shouldnt be able to respond to.
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Imagine if you had to pass priority every time someone tapped mana. Also to avoid weird interactions like killing a mana dork when someone taps a land and now they suddenly don't have enough mana to cast your spell.
If you had to use the stack to tap an island or something for mana something would be horribly wrong. Imagine deathrite shaman/arbor elf where you actually have to wait to add the mana but for all lands, mana dorks, etc. etc. and how nightmarish that would be stackwise. Now imagine it on magic online. Magic online would be even worse than it is now and it's quite hard to make it worse to be honest.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
It would be a crazy world where you could do that, it would also make the counterspell cat and mouse game even crazy. Not to mention the craziness that would be introduced to the legacy stack.
The game would totally work with mana abilities on the stack.
It would just be slightly more annoying in some circumstances, as you have to use mana abilities before you resolve an ability/spell that has an mana cost in it, and it also means, an opponent can respond to you tapping lands you want to use to play a spell, which would indeed result in more complicated game states if we take cards like Daze into account (means you let them tap 2 out of 3 mana, then play the spell you want to resolve and such).
In paper Magic it is even more annoying as you have to make sure when/how to pass priority, especially as mana abilities arent really visible beside tapping the land, it quickly gets very confusing.
Lion's Eye Diamond actual uses the "instant" speed mana restriction, as it is kinda required for the card to work, but its still very confusing for people as it behavious so special (but you get used to it ofcourse).
So summed up, the game works much smoother with mana abilities not going on the stack.
However, sometimes the "definition" what a mana ability is gets kinda wonky (Deathrite Shaman for example is not a mana ability, and it will use the stack).
The game would totally work with mana abilities on the stack.
It would just be slightly more annoying in some circumstances, as you have to use mana abilities before you resolve an ability/spell that has an mana cost in it, and it also means, an opponent can respond to you tapping lands you want to use to play a spell, which would indeed result in more complicated game states if we take cards like Daze into account (means you let them tap 2 out of 3 mana, then play the spell you want to resolve and such).
It would also mean that you have an opportunity to act between your opponent tapping for mana and casting a spell. That would result in a radically different game.
It would also mean that you have an opportunity to act between your opponent tapping for mana and casting a spell. That would result in a radically different game.
Nothing prevents your opponent from tapping a Mountain, retaining priority, tapping another Mountain, retaining priority, tapping a third Mountain, retaining priority, and then casting, say, Annihilating Fire.
...Well, actually, there would be, but most likely your opportunities to act would involve activating mana abilities anyway. But if that's the case (if almost every single response to an ability involves activating mana abilities), then this distinction ends up not really mattering as much.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Cards such as Propaganda would essentially read "creatures can't attack you" if mana abilities used the stack.
You could add the mana at the beginning of combat step so it wouldn't prevent attacks.
Not under current rules. Currently the mana pool empties at the end of each step a well as each phase, so any mana you generate in Beginning of Combat will be lost at the end of that step, and at the beginning of the Declare Attackers Step your mana pool is empty again.
It would make the game annoying to play. It's better to tap just one mana source at a time, so you would have to say "I tap my Forest for G. Resolves?", "OK", "Now I tap my Island for U. Resolves?", "OK". And so on. Casting anything would take an extra minute of tapping.
(If you tap all at once you give away what you are about to cast.)
Imagine if you had to pass priority every time someone tapped mana. Also to avoid weird interactions like killing a mana dork when someone taps a land and now they suddenly don't have enough mana to cast your spell.
You could still respond by tapping the mana creature. Unless their spell has Split Second.
Imagine if you had to pass priority every time someone tapped mana. Also to avoid weird interactions like killing a mana dork when someone taps a land and now they suddenly don't have enough mana to cast your spell.
You could still respond by tapping the mana creature. Unless their spell has Split Second.
Split second specifically allows mana abilities to be activated anyway. (Remember, split second spells can be responded to, just not with spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities. Triggered abilities still go on the stack above the split second spell--such as Hesitation or Counterbalance, though you can't spin Sensei's Divining Top in response to the Counterbalance trigger--and special actions, like flipping over a Morph permanent or making a Licid into a creature again in response to a Krosan Grip, though that wouldn't do anything if it's Transmogrifying Licid, can be done. You can also tap a land in response to Take Possession, provided that the land has a mana ability.)
And anyway, there's a section in the mana abilities rules that allows them to be activated during the resolution of any spell or ability requiring a mana payment, so Propaganda wouldn't read "creatures can't attack you", but it would mean that something would have to be added to the rules about creating a stack during the resolution of an ability.
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Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Even if you fixed it so paying mana during the resolution of cards like Scent of Brine kinda works, you would hugely depower sorcery speed actions, because your opponent would always see how much mana you are adding. They could guess ahead to Shock your morph in response to making the last mana to unmorph Sagu Mauler if you don't have another land to tap in response. When you try to tap mana for Whip of Erebos they could just Shatter it in response to you trying to make the fourth mana.
And anyway, there's a section in the mana abilities rules that allows them to be activated during the resolution of any spell or ability requiring a mana payment, so Propaganda wouldn't read "creatures can't attack you", but it would mean that something would have to be added to the rules about creating a stack during the resolution of an ability.
The Stack doesn't get created when things happen, its a zone and its always there. There's no way to have Propaganda work with mana on the Stack and not completely rewrite the rules about how spells and abilities resolve.
And anyway, there's a section in the mana abilities rules that allows them to be activated during the resolution of any spell or ability requiring a mana payment, so Propaganda wouldn't read "creatures can't attack you", but it would mean that something would have to be added to the rules about creating a stack during the resolution of an ability.
The Stack doesn't get created when things happen, its a zone and its always there. There's no way to have Propaganda work with mana on the Stack and not completely rewrite the rules about how spells and abilities resolve.
Fair point. I worded that very poorly. I suppose that what I should have said is that something would have to be added to the rules about spells and abilities other than mana abilities being cast* and resolving during the resolution of a spell or ability. The backbone already exists in Rule 605.3a, though:
A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
Rules Advisor (as of the last time they offered that certification).
Quote from "William Lyon Mackenzie King" »
There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
Because as matt tabak put it one time, when you tap your forests you should just get green mana. In other words mana abilities are just parts of the game that you shouldnt be able to respond to.
This. It would make the game take forever, and it would mean I could just cast Bind or Avoid Fate or Stifle at the right time to **** you over.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Because as matt tabak put it one time, when you tap your forests you should just get green mana. In other words mana abilities are just parts of the game that you shouldnt be able to respond to.
This. It would make the game take forever, and it would mean I could just cast Bind or Avoid Fate or Stifle at the right time to **** you over.
Thats what storm with mana rituals bothers with all the time ;P
Because as matt tabak put it one time, when you tap your forests you should just get green mana. In other words mana abilities are just parts of the game that you shouldnt be able to respond to.
This. It would make the game take forever, and it would mean I could just cast Bind or Avoid Fate or Stifle at the right time to **** you over.
Thats what storm with mana rituals bothers with all the time ;P
Just get a taste of it !
To be fair, storm kinda deserves it for turning Magic into a game of solitaire.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Because as matt tabak put it one time, when you tap your forests you should just get green mana. In other words mana abilities are just parts of the game that you shouldnt be able to respond to.
Did mana abilities work differently back when magic was created?
Like people said even if the land blows up you still get to respond by tapping mana. So I don't see why mana aren't just normal abilites from the begin with.
Especially for a beginner "mana ability" seems like a confusing term.
Because as matt tabak put it one time, when you tap your forests you should just get green mana. In other words mana abilities are just parts of the game that you shouldnt be able to respond to.
Did mana abilities work differently back when magic was created?
Like people said even if the land blows up you still get to respond by tapping mana. So I don't see why mana aren't just normal abilites from the begin with.
Especially for a beginner "mana ability" seems like a confusing term.
It's more for keeping the game rules from blowing up at higher levels of play.
See Lion's Eye Diamond. Being able to play the ability "only as an instant" introduces a timing restriction that means you can't announce the spell (removing it from your hand), then crack the Diamond to pay for it, because isntants can't be cast during the "announcement" part of casting a spell.
There was a time when the "announcement" process (a long, long time ago) didn't permit activating mana to pay for a spell once it was on the stack; this caused players at tournaments to lose, because they didn't tap their mana before saying "Bolt your guy", and so they wouldn't have the mana to pay for the bolt; the game would rewind, and their move would be broadcast. Sometimes the judges were lenient; other times they weren't. It was an unintuitive rule that players just didn't grok at any level of play; it was removed in favour of the current implementation. Search "Dave Mills and the Pro Tour Riot" if you want to know more; here's the summary (there's lots of other similar stories about the odd rulings that happened because of this thing):
1) Dave Mills and the Pro Tour Riot
Where and When? Pro Tour Los Angeles 1997
What was he DQed for? Playing his spells before tapping his mana.
The Scoop: For those of you new to the game yes you read the DQ reason correctly. Dave Mills was disqualified in the finals of Pro Tour Los Angeles for repeatedly playing his spells and then tapping his mana. This was against the rules back in the day (and in fact for the first decade of Magic more-or-less) — and after several warnings against playing in this style Dave was disqualified out of the Pro Tour without prize.
The Aftermath: This disqualification led to a riot (as much as one can be called at a Magic Tournament) where several players stormed the stage during the trophy ceremony grabbed the microphone and demanded justice for David Mills. The entire Pro Tour had been decided on something that quite honestly every casual player has done with every spell they've ever cast ever. Seeing the light Wizards eventually changed this rule to allow people to announce a spell and then tap mana.
This disqualification was so unpopular that Wizards eventually relented on the “no-prize” part of this DQ and gave Dave Mills a full second-place share of the Pro Tour money.
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Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Currently Playing:
Retired
It would just be slightly more annoying in some circumstances, as you have to use mana abilities before you resolve an ability/spell that has an mana cost in it, and it also means, an opponent can respond to you tapping lands you want to use to play a spell, which would indeed result in more complicated game states if we take cards like Daze into account (means you let them tap 2 out of 3 mana, then play the spell you want to resolve and such).
In paper Magic it is even more annoying as you have to make sure when/how to pass priority, especially as mana abilities arent really visible beside tapping the land, it quickly gets very confusing.
Lion's Eye Diamond actual uses the "instant" speed mana restriction, as it is kinda required for the card to work, but its still very confusing for people as it behavious so special (but you get used to it ofcourse).
So summed up, the game works much smoother with mana abilities not going on the stack.
However, sometimes the "definition" what a mana ability is gets kinda wonky (Deathrite Shaman for example is not a mana ability, and it will use the stack).
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It would also mean that you have an opportunity to act between your opponent tapping for mana and casting a spell. That would result in a radically different game.
Nothing prevents your opponent from tapping a Mountain, retaining priority, tapping another Mountain, retaining priority, tapping a third Mountain, retaining priority, and then casting, say, Annihilating Fire.
...Well, actually, there would be, but most likely your opportunities to act would involve activating mana abilities anyway. But if that's the case (if almost every single response to an ability involves activating mana abilities), then this distinction ends up not really mattering as much.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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You could add the mana at the beginning of combat step so it wouldn't prevent attacks.
OP - it would be incredibly inconvenient and not matter in 95% of games.
Not under current rules. Currently the mana pool empties at the end of each step a well as each phase, so any mana you generate in Beginning of Combat will be lost at the end of that step, and at the beginning of the Declare Attackers Step your mana pool is empty again.
(If you tap all at once you give away what you are about to cast.)
You could still respond by tapping the mana creature. Unless their spell has Split Second.
Split second specifically allows mana abilities to be activated anyway. (Remember, split second spells can be responded to, just not with spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities. Triggered abilities still go on the stack above the split second spell--such as Hesitation or Counterbalance, though you can't spin Sensei's Divining Top in response to the Counterbalance trigger--and special actions, like flipping over a Morph permanent or making a Licid into a creature again in response to a Krosan Grip, though that wouldn't do anything if it's Transmogrifying Licid, can be done. You can also tap a land in response to Take Possession, provided that the land has a mana ability.)
Also, don't forget that loyalty abilities aren't mana abilities, so I can respond to Koth of the Hammer's -2 with a Strip Mine, Wasteland or Tectonic Edge, or to Xenagos, the Reveler's +1 with a Doom Blade.
And anyway, there's a section in the mana abilities rules that allows them to be activated during the resolution of any spell or ability requiring a mana payment, so Propaganda wouldn't read "creatures can't attack you", but it would mean that something would have to be added to the rules about creating a stack during the resolution of an ability.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
The Stack doesn't get created when things happen, its a zone and its always there. There's no way to have Propaganda work with mana on the Stack and not completely rewrite the rules about how spells and abilities resolve.
Fair point. I worded that very poorly. I suppose that what I should have said is that something would have to be added to the rules about spells and abilities other than mana abilities being cast* and resolving during the resolution of a spell or ability. The backbone already exists in Rule 605.3a, though:
*Yes, I know Panglacial Wurm exists.
I don't play decks. I solve optimization problems.
Currently solving:
Standard: Too poor for this format.
Modern: GW Auras, Living End, WB TurboFog, UB Mill, UR Storm
Legacy: R Burn, GU Infect, RG Lands, B Contamination
This. It would make the game take forever, and it would mean I could just cast Bind or Avoid Fate or Stifle at the right time to **** you over.
On phasing:
Thats what storm with mana rituals bothers with all the time ;P
Just get a taste of it !
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
To be fair, storm kinda deserves it for turning Magic into a game of solitaire.
On phasing:
Did mana abilities work differently back when magic was created?
Like people said even if the land blows up you still get to respond by tapping mana. So I don't see why mana aren't just normal abilites from the begin with.
Especially for a beginner "mana ability" seems like a confusing term.
See Lion's Eye Diamond. Being able to play the ability "only as an instant" introduces a timing restriction that means you can't announce the spell (removing it from your hand), then crack the Diamond to pay for it, because isntants can't be cast during the "announcement" part of casting a spell.
There was a time when the "announcement" process (a long, long time ago) didn't permit activating mana to pay for a spell once it was on the stack; this caused players at tournaments to lose, because they didn't tap their mana before saying "Bolt your guy", and so they wouldn't have the mana to pay for the bolt; the game would rewind, and their move would be broadcast. Sometimes the judges were lenient; other times they weren't. It was an unintuitive rule that players just didn't grok at any level of play; it was removed in favour of the current implementation. Search "Dave Mills and the Pro Tour Riot" if you want to know more; here's the summary (there's lots of other similar stories about the odd rulings that happened because of this thing):