After this showed up SCG is opening an investigation into the matter. It's interesting that people will attempt cheating even in the feature match but if I didn't know what to look for, I would never have noticed anything.
What really worries me: you have someone like this guy who foolishly cheats ON CAMERA and doesn't get caught till the next day and also manages to reach the finals of the Modern event. If someone like him manages this with such simple cheating, how long do you think someone with more "sophisticated" cheating abilities and smart enough to not do it on camera continues to cheat before getting caught? The blatant cheater who does it on camera isn't who you have to worry about. You have to worry about the cheater who can show restraint and manages to cheat for years without ever getting caught.
Eyes up at all times while shuffling. People have been using this trick for a long time. Not only can you stack the deck in your favor, you also get a pre-game look at what your opponent is playing.
Cheating is just a crutch for the pathetic and pitiful who cannot succeed on their skill alone, but it's always going to be an unfortunate part of the game. If that's what they determine, this guy's winnings get donated to charity. Classy move on SCG's part.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
For the sake of the game, I hope his punishment is swift and severe. The game loses credibility when those who organize events like this don't take a hard line on cheating of this magnitude. He Final'd TWO events, probably using the same methods of cheating for both. It should not be acceptable at any level, FNM or SCG Open, and a lifetime ban is hopefully on the table to set an example for those who would attempt to cheat.
Might not be related to anything, just an observation;
19:10 and onwards in twitch vid. A player plays a creature and the next thing that happens is that the same player casts Stoke the Flames upon which player B manages to rewind the game so that he can respond to the creature cast (with destroying another creature), effectively preventing the Stoke the Flames being cast that turn (not enough mana).
Have the players at competitive events report mulligans in addition to games/match score on the score slips.
Its hard to see but the announcers note that he rushed into the Swiftspear resolution, which may have happened. Unfortunately he telegraphed a Stoke the Flames by rushing, forcing the rewind and Humphries obvious response. Was partially Murphies fault, should ask for resolution of the Swiftspear before moving forward, especially in the finals.
I wonder when it becomes more than just cheating? In reddit they are posting videos from as far back as 2009 that look suspect. I mean how much $$ has this guy won from different tournaments? I personally hope this guy can get jail time for this if the investigation can prove he is essentially a con man.
yea, this guy has some quick and devious hands and has been doing this for a long time. He is probably one of those guys who think that he would be dumb to stop cheating as long as he gets away with it and has no ethical compass. He has clearly been practicing this for a long time which makes it even more disgusting. In another clip he is called on it and his opponent asks the judge to shuffle his deck for him, and Humphries just shrugs when the judge explains it to him.
It should be noted that he isn't listed in the round 1 pairings, results, or standings for the Modern open. It's likely an error, but I feel obliged to point it out.
I know that I shouldn't let the comments on Reddit sway me like this, but I honestly think that he deserves a ban for at least a year or two. This guy has nothing to contribute the game. He seems like a real piece of work.
I honestly feel like nowadays if I catch someone cheating, I will assume the worst (that they have been doing it forever) and call a Judge to try to get them the most serious penalty that they deserve. I feel bad that it has come to this, but we need to unite to make sure that everyone keeps an eye out for cheaters.
You don't know how much I respect Paul Rietzl for talking about the integrity of the game. Whether or not he's telling the truth (I give him the benefit of the doubt) says volumes about him as a player. Any Pro Player who speaks out about cheating gets an extra "brownie point" in my mind.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Why i absolutely hate going to, reading or even agreeing with anything from Reddit, it certainly looks like cheating. Very practiced at that from what the videos show.
Now to just sit back and relax while everyone Reddit has a field day because they accomplished something.
I know that I shouldn't let the comments on Reddit sway me like this, but I honestly think that he deserves a ban for at least a year or two. This guy has nothing to contribute the game. He seems like a real piece of work.
Here's what I don't understand. This guy will be called out on his cheating, and will likely get a timed ban. But why should he ever be allowed to play in a sanctioned/competitive event ever again? And, weirdly enough, Alex Bertoncini placed in the Legacy portion of the same event this guy wins the Standard and Modern portions of!
I know that I shouldn't let the comments on Reddit sway me like this, but I honestly think that he deserves a ban for at least a year or two. This guy has nothing to contribute the game. He seems like a real piece of work.
I honestly feel like nowadays if I catch someone cheating, I will assume the worst (that they have been doing it forever) and call a Judge to try to get them the most serious penalty that they deserve. I feel bad that it has come to this, but we need to unite to make sure that everyone keeps an eye out for cheaters.
This kind of attitude is actively detrimental to the game, though. Cheating is bad, there's no question about it, but we shouldn't go after cheaters with such zeal that we accidentally wind up also going after innocent people who simply make mistakes or whose play is a little bit sloppy. I've been accused of cheating in the past, and the court of public opinion at my LGS still holds it against me (despite the actions occurring anywhere from 1-3 years ago) because no one remembers the part where (in my case) it was just a bunch of after-the-fact rumours and capitalizing on mistakes that look shady but aren't actually anything to worry about (the odd life total discrepancy or what-have-you). But it's not just me that's affected by this. There's a definite culture in Magic to point to any given video where something shady might have occurred, and then declaring that the person is a cheater who needs to be banned from the game. Whether or not the official judgement agrees with this feels secondary, and in a bunch of cases I've seen opinion be "I don't care if this person fooled the DCI, they're not fooling me."
Innocent until proven guilty is very important because it prevents people from undeserved punishment. When players circumvent that with an anti-cheating fervor that end-runs the game's actual authority by determining "guilt" before the investigation is complete or by declaring the official judgement to be "wrong," those players are doing more to damage the game's integrity than the occasional cheater does. Many cheaters might go free because the DCI doesn't presume guilt without evidence, but it's better to let a cheater go free than to disqualify or ban an innocent player. To say otherwise is to say that accusation matters more than proof, that public opinion matters more than professional judgement. It's to say that even if someone's found innocent, then they should still be punished through having their reputation tarnished over something that didn't deserve it.
Has this person cheated? Possibly. I actually don't have an opinion one way or the other. If the investigations committee determines he cheated and needs a ban, then that's a fair judgement. If they decide his behaviour wasn't cheating (which by definition is intentional), then I don't see any reason to impugn his name with accusations to the contrary. It's just not my decision to make, especially when the cost of making the wrong decision can be so high.
That's a helluva weekend that this guy had to win both the standard and modern events... He probably screwed himself by winning both events. Reminds me of Ed Norton's character, 'Worm,' in rounder... It looks like he didn't know how far he should push it.
I've never liked my opponent to shuffle my deck. It really annoys me when they hand it back to me and the cards are not in a clean pile. It's probably because I'm an only child.
What I would agree on, however, is that the consequences for first-time cheaters should be more severe in order to really teach them a lesson. Up to taking it to police officials (after all, there are money prices at tournaments, and cheating in one could be considered a form of fraud). In other words, they might think that cheating is rather inconsequential (what does getting a two-year ban really matter? not much, really), so they should get a nasty surprise when the thing goes to the police. If that doesn't scare them straight, then perma-ban them.
Retributive justice doesn't work very well for real crimes, so making punishments even harsher for cheating at Magic isn't going to accomplish much. Cheaters will still cheat, in much the same way criminals still commit crimes no matter how harsh the punishments get. Obviously, disqualifications and bans are effective tools at keeping cheaters out of the game, but upping punishments for first time cheaters isn't the answer because first-time cheaters aren't really the ones to bring the hammer down on. People who keep cheating time and again are the ones to be concerned with. Even with harsher "scare them straight" measures, you're not going to see much decline in recidivism because the pathological and/or incorrigible cheaters are still going to do it again, and people who would've learned their lesson after regular measures are punished harder for no real benefit.
I agree with the entiretly Teia Rabishu's post. I haven't seen such a mob witch hunt mentality in a good while (Attributed it to Reddit but eh I'll give them a break). While I do think in this case he has been cheating, you can't just blanket solution a thing like this.
The same happened to me numerous times where I've been accused of cheating, and the problem is the most competitive event I've ever entered is FNM's.
That's a helluva weekend that this guy had to win both the standard and modern events... He probably screwed himself by winning both events. Reminds me of Ed Norton's character, 'Worm,' in rounder... It looks like he didn't know how far he should push it.
I've never liked my opponent to shuffle my deck. It really annoys me when they hand it back to me and the cards are not in a clean pile. It's probably because I'm an only child.
Ya damn only children, being all organized and whatnot.
I used to like when my opponent expertly shuffled my deck, when I was young and struggled with shuffling quickly.
I know that I shouldn't let the comments on Reddit sway me like this, but I honestly think that he deserves a ban for at least a year or two. This guy has nothing to contribute the game. He seems like a real piece of work.
I honestly feel like nowadays if I catch someone cheating, I will assume the worst (that they have been doing it forever) and call a Judge to try to get them the most serious penalty that they deserve. I feel bad that it has come to this, but we need to unite to make sure that everyone keeps an eye out for cheaters.
This kind of attitude is actively detrimental to the game, though. Cheating is bad, there's no question about it, but we shouldn't go after cheaters with such zeal that we accidentally wind up also going after innocent people who simply make mistakes or whose play is a little bit sloppy. I've been accused of cheating in the past, and the court of public opinion at my LGS still holds it against me (despite the actions occurring anywhere from 1-3 years ago) because no one remembers the part where (in my case) it was just a bunch of after-the-fact rumours and capitalizing on mistakes that look shady but aren't actually anything to worry about (the odd life total discrepancy or what-have-you). But it's not just me that's affected by this. There's a definite culture in Magic to point to any given video where something shady might have occurred, and then declaring that the person is a cheater who needs to be banned from the game. Whether or not the official judgement agrees with this feels secondary, and in a bunch of cases I've seen opinion be "I don't care if this person fooled the DCI, they're not fooling me."
Innocent until proven guilty is very important because it prevents people from undeserved punishment. When players circumvent that with an anti-cheating fervor that end-runs the game's actual authority by determining "guilt" before the investigation is complete or by declaring the official judgement to be "wrong," those players are doing more to damage the game's integrity than the occasional cheater does. Many cheaters might go free because the DCI doesn't presume guilt without evidence, but it's better to let a cheater go free than to disqualify or ban an innocent player. To say otherwise is to say that accusation matters more than proof, that public opinion matters more than professional judgement. It's to say that even if someone's found innocent, then they should still be punished through having their reputation tarnished over something that didn't deserve it.
Has this person cheated? Possibly. I actually don't have an opinion one way or the other. If the investigations committee determines he cheated and needs a ban, then that's a fair judgement. If they decide his behaviour wasn't cheating (which by definition is intentional), then I don't see any reason to impugn his name with accusations to the contrary. It's just not my decision to make, especially when the cost of making the wrong decision can be so high.
There's nothing wrong with keeping a watchful eye on your opponents. It's what you are supposed to do if you play the game at competitive REL. You are doing not just yourself, but others, a disservice if you are not monitoring your opponent for cheating. I'm not saying that you stare them down and call any little thing you see. But I'm also not saying that you agree with your opponent after he played 3 lands in a turn and defend him or look away from the table while shuffling, only for your opponent to totally stack your deck.
I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. In some of the Reddit posts, players from his own LGS have stated what kind of things that he did before. Maybe they're all lying? Still, if SCG finds him guilty, which the videos fairly clearly show, he should be banned for some while. Maybe he can think over his game and try to come back some day with a different attitude. Maybe everyone's lying and he's a perfect guy who just happened to win the Standard and Modern portions of the weekend tournament? Still, there is no reason for him to shuffle and look at his opponents' decks the way he did.
I honestly feel like everyone else in the tournament should have their prizes bumped up. The 2nd place "winners" are now 1st place, etc. There is no right way to rectify this, but it would be a start in the right direction.
Also, guess what? People who don't cheat are rarely called cheaters in any serious way where they're watched by DCI officials, in this case, Judges. I have played since 1994 and only once did I feel like a certain store thought I was cheating. They never said anything about it, but during Drafts, they would do checks and we would have to keep all of our extras in our cars whenever I'd come. They had no proof of anything because I didn't DO anything other than have a hot streak during Zendikar Block drafts, which ended during ROE. I always felt like they had something aimed at me, but I didn't mind too much because I had nothing to hide. The cards that I played in my decks were mostly passed to me other than the few that I opened in my 3 packs. One of the two owners of the store always did these random checks, which I didn't mind other than I felt that they were aimed at me because I happened to go 3-0 many times in a row. The other owner was a friend of my friend, but he stayed out of it. This time is not even a time when I was called a "cheater." Obviously the better you do, the more scrutiny you will be under. I think the way to go is above all and hold integrity for the game, and I mean "game" that we play like most players do.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. In some of the Reddit posts, players from his own LGS have stated what kind of things that he did before. Maybe they're all lying?
And this is exactly why hearsay shouldn't be considered in cases like this. To use the example of myself again, there are a number of people at my LGS convinced I'm up to no good who have nothing to go on except rumour spread relentlessly over time (along with confirmation-bias-triggering false positives). These things build upon themselves. The fact that this person has a bunch of unconfirmed reports of misbehaviour at his LGS should have absolutely no bearing on this instance of whether he was cheating or not.
The first time they should be taught that cheating is not harmless, that there will be actual, real repercussions that could affect their lives beyond just some MtG tournaments. If they don't learn from that, then perma-ban them.
You were talking about first offenders being punished far more severely than they are now, up to taking the matter to the police. That wouldn't do anything to deter unsavory folk from cheating (they're already convinced they aren't going to get caught) but it will cause people with only a moment of bad judgement far more punishment than they deserve.
To put it into perspective, taking something to the police for someone's first instance of cheating at Magic with the reasoning that it "scares them straight" is like disqualifying someone for a common game rule violation (like tapping 3W for a Wrath of God or not attacking with a Rabblemaster token) with the reasoning that "they'll learn to be more careful in the future." It's such gross overkill that there's absolutely no conceivable benefit.
This could be another cheat, or it could just be an honest mistake. I'm wondering what one should do in such a situation. Sure, a player has all the right in the world to immediately call a judge, but would you be considered a prick for doing that instead of just reminding your opponent that the Mutavault still has summoning sickness?
It isn't an honest mistake. If you notice after that, he very quickly moves the mutavault back to his land pile to try and cover up that fact. Also, Teia, what you are describing is not hearsay. People indicated that he did that at their LGS(something they witnessed). They reported it in the reddit thread. That is not hearsay. They were a witness to the events.
Secondly, there have been multiple video links proving this guy cheated(one being a freeze frame where you can see the result of right after he fingers one card from the bottom of the deck to the top and then the card peels away slightly from the deck. There is a gyf that is slowed down enough to see how he does it. It is VERY CLEAR he is cheating. Finally, this is not the first time he has done this. Apparently just about ALL of his opponents got mana screwed EVERY game. I know ppl can run hot, but that's absolutely ridiculous.
Also, Teia, what you are describing is not hearsay. People indicated that he did that at their LGS(something they witnessed). They reported it in the reddit thread. That is not hearsay. They were a witness to the events.
Semantic quibbles about the meaning of "hearsay" aside, there's a difference between someone calling a judge over shady behaviour at FNM and "I saw this guy do something sometime." If you've ever played a game of Telephone, you'll know how events can change between retellings and between people talking about something.
Again, I'm not defending this guy specifically so much as just saying that lay reports of someone cheating aren't all that reliable except as a way to know if further investigation is required.
Unfortunately a bad series of mulligans can lead to anyone being called a cheater.
I saw in that similar match, where James.. derpaderpa, was playing Naya Hexproof.
The interesting thing to note is that in games 2/3, the judge shuffled his deck.
However he had repeated mulligans, even when Trevor didn't touch his deck.
Now that isn't to say that Trevor didn't contribute to illegal Library Manipulation, it's really interesting to note how dragon mantle was flipped sort of callously, at the exact same moment he tossed the dice. His opponents eyeline following the dice rather than the game. His opponent also seemed to be very off kilter the entire match, probably jitters for a high level event.
I think a forfeiture of prizes for that event is in order. I do not believe a temporary suspension or ban is in order.
Why? Because anyone on the internet is allowed to post whatever story they want as 'proof.' Unfortunately 'This time I played him at a GP Trevor made me Mulligan to 5!' Doesn't constitute proof. Even if multiple people come forward, it could be considered a hive mentality. And on top of that research would have to be done to even verify the validity of those claims, as in, did they play against Trevor at that certain event?
What we have is an on camera incident of this situation at hand. Nothing more.
We have a precedent of his opponent, again on camera, requesting that there be a judge to shuffle his library, and a Mutavault 'Negate'. (I'm all in favor of #NegateGate or.. #MutaGate, sounds catchy.)
In this incident, he should be forfeited of prizes, and a valid precedent made aware of to track this behavior in the future. It could be a simple mistake, but it seems a little too coincidental to be a 'minor error' that could award prizes, but not systematic enough, and again I stress this point, with enough proof (barring 'internet eye witnesses,' unless a report to a judge was made and filed), to justify a suspension or ban.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
After this showed up SCG is opening an investigation into the matter. It's interesting that people will attempt cheating even in the feature match but if I didn't know what to look for, I would never have noticed anything.
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/c/5333218
Cheating is just a crutch for the pathetic and pitiful who cannot succeed on their skill alone, but it's always going to be an unfortunate part of the game. If that's what they determine, this guy's winnings get donated to charity. Classy move on SCG's part.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
19:10 and onwards in twitch vid. A player plays a creature and the next thing that happens is that the same player casts Stoke the Flames upon which player B manages to rewind the game so that he can respond to the creature cast (with destroying another creature), effectively preventing the Stoke the Flames being cast that turn (not enough mana).
Have the players at competitive events report mulligans in addition to games/match score on the score slips.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I honestly feel like nowadays if I catch someone cheating, I will assume the worst (that they have been doing it forever) and call a Judge to try to get them the most serious penalty that they deserve. I feel bad that it has come to this, but we need to unite to make sure that everyone keeps an eye out for cheaters.
You don't know how much I respect Paul Rietzl for talking about the integrity of the game. Whether or not he's telling the truth (I give him the benefit of the doubt) says volumes about him as a player. Any Pro Player who speaks out about cheating gets an extra "brownie point" in my mind.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Now to just sit back and relax while everyone Reddit has a field day because they accomplished something.
Here's what I don't understand. This guy will be called out on his cheating, and will likely get a timed ban. But why should he ever be allowed to play in a sanctioned/competitive event ever again? And, weirdly enough, Alex Bertoncini placed in the Legacy portion of the same event this guy wins the Standard and Modern portions of!
There should only be a lifetime ban for cheating.
This kind of attitude is actively detrimental to the game, though. Cheating is bad, there's no question about it, but we shouldn't go after cheaters with such zeal that we accidentally wind up also going after innocent people who simply make mistakes or whose play is a little bit sloppy. I've been accused of cheating in the past, and the court of public opinion at my LGS still holds it against me (despite the actions occurring anywhere from 1-3 years ago) because no one remembers the part where (in my case) it was just a bunch of after-the-fact rumours and capitalizing on mistakes that look shady but aren't actually anything to worry about (the odd life total discrepancy or what-have-you). But it's not just me that's affected by this. There's a definite culture in Magic to point to any given video where something shady might have occurred, and then declaring that the person is a cheater who needs to be banned from the game. Whether or not the official judgement agrees with this feels secondary, and in a bunch of cases I've seen opinion be "I don't care if this person fooled the DCI, they're not fooling me."
Innocent until proven guilty is very important because it prevents people from undeserved punishment. When players circumvent that with an anti-cheating fervor that end-runs the game's actual authority by determining "guilt" before the investigation is complete or by declaring the official judgement to be "wrong," those players are doing more to damage the game's integrity than the occasional cheater does. Many cheaters might go free because the DCI doesn't presume guilt without evidence, but it's better to let a cheater go free than to disqualify or ban an innocent player. To say otherwise is to say that accusation matters more than proof, that public opinion matters more than professional judgement. It's to say that even if someone's found innocent, then they should still be punished through having their reputation tarnished over something that didn't deserve it.
Has this person cheated? Possibly. I actually don't have an opinion one way or the other. If the investigations committee determines he cheated and needs a ban, then that's a fair judgement. If they decide his behaviour wasn't cheating (which by definition is intentional), then I don't see any reason to impugn his name with accusations to the contrary. It's just not my decision to make, especially when the cost of making the wrong decision can be so high.
I've never liked my opponent to shuffle my deck. It really annoys me when they hand it back to me and the cards are not in a clean pile. It's probably because I'm an only child.
Retributive justice doesn't work very well for real crimes, so making punishments even harsher for cheating at Magic isn't going to accomplish much. Cheaters will still cheat, in much the same way criminals still commit crimes no matter how harsh the punishments get. Obviously, disqualifications and bans are effective tools at keeping cheaters out of the game, but upping punishments for first time cheaters isn't the answer because first-time cheaters aren't really the ones to bring the hammer down on. People who keep cheating time and again are the ones to be concerned with. Even with harsher "scare them straight" measures, you're not going to see much decline in recidivism because the pathological and/or incorrigible cheaters are still going to do it again, and people who would've learned their lesson after regular measures are punished harder for no real benefit.
The same happened to me numerous times where I've been accused of cheating, and the problem is the most competitive event I've ever entered is FNM's.
Ya damn only children, being all organized and whatnot.
I used to like when my opponent expertly shuffled my deck, when I was young and struggled with shuffling quickly.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
There's nothing wrong with keeping a watchful eye on your opponents. It's what you are supposed to do if you play the game at competitive REL. You are doing not just yourself, but others, a disservice if you are not monitoring your opponent for cheating. I'm not saying that you stare them down and call any little thing you see. But I'm also not saying that you agree with your opponent after he played 3 lands in a turn and defend him or look away from the table while shuffling, only for your opponent to totally stack your deck.
I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. In some of the Reddit posts, players from his own LGS have stated what kind of things that he did before. Maybe they're all lying? Still, if SCG finds him guilty, which the videos fairly clearly show, he should be banned for some while. Maybe he can think over his game and try to come back some day with a different attitude. Maybe everyone's lying and he's a perfect guy who just happened to win the Standard and Modern portions of the weekend tournament? Still, there is no reason for him to shuffle and look at his opponents' decks the way he did.
I honestly feel like everyone else in the tournament should have their prizes bumped up. The 2nd place "winners" are now 1st place, etc. There is no right way to rectify this, but it would be a start in the right direction.
Also, guess what? People who don't cheat are rarely called cheaters in any serious way where they're watched by DCI officials, in this case, Judges. I have played since 1994 and only once did I feel like a certain store thought I was cheating. They never said anything about it, but during Drafts, they would do checks and we would have to keep all of our extras in our cars whenever I'd come. They had no proof of anything because I didn't DO anything other than have a hot streak during Zendikar Block drafts, which ended during ROE. I always felt like they had something aimed at me, but I didn't mind too much because I had nothing to hide. The cards that I played in my decks were mostly passed to me other than the few that I opened in my 3 packs. One of the two owners of the store always did these random checks, which I didn't mind other than I felt that they were aimed at me because I happened to go 3-0 many times in a row. The other owner was a friend of my friend, but he stayed out of it. This time is not even a time when I was called a "cheater." Obviously the better you do, the more scrutiny you will be under. I think the way to go is above all and hold integrity for the game, and I mean "game" that we play like most players do.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)And this is exactly why hearsay shouldn't be considered in cases like this. To use the example of myself again, there are a number of people at my LGS convinced I'm up to no good who have nothing to go on except rumour spread relentlessly over time (along with confirmation-bias-triggering false positives). These things build upon themselves. The fact that this person has a bunch of unconfirmed reports of misbehaviour at his LGS should have absolutely no bearing on this instance of whether he was cheating or not.
You were talking about first offenders being punished far more severely than they are now, up to taking the matter to the police. That wouldn't do anything to deter unsavory folk from cheating (they're already convinced they aren't going to get caught) but it will cause people with only a moment of bad judgement far more punishment than they deserve.
To put it into perspective, taking something to the police for someone's first instance of cheating at Magic with the reasoning that it "scares them straight" is like disqualifying someone for a common game rule violation (like tapping 3W for a Wrath of God or not attacking with a Rabblemaster token) with the reasoning that "they'll learn to be more careful in the future." It's such gross overkill that there's absolutely no conceivable benefit.
It isn't an honest mistake. If you notice after that, he very quickly moves the mutavault back to his land pile to try and cover up that fact. Also, Teia, what you are describing is not hearsay. People indicated that he did that at their LGS(something they witnessed). They reported it in the reddit thread. That is not hearsay. They were a witness to the events.
Secondly, there have been multiple video links proving this guy cheated(one being a freeze frame where you can see the result of right after he fingers one card from the bottom of the deck to the top and then the card peels away slightly from the deck. There is a gyf that is slowed down enough to see how he does it. It is VERY CLEAR he is cheating. Finally, this is not the first time he has done this. Apparently just about ALL of his opponents got mana screwed EVERY game. I know ppl can run hot, but that's absolutely ridiculous.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Semantic quibbles about the meaning of "hearsay" aside, there's a difference between someone calling a judge over shady behaviour at FNM and "I saw this guy do something sometime." If you've ever played a game of Telephone, you'll know how events can change between retellings and between people talking about something.
Again, I'm not defending this guy specifically so much as just saying that lay reports of someone cheating aren't all that reliable except as a way to know if further investigation is required.
I saw in that similar match, where James.. derpaderpa, was playing Naya Hexproof.
The interesting thing to note is that in games 2/3, the judge shuffled his deck.
However he had repeated mulligans, even when Trevor didn't touch his deck.
Now that isn't to say that Trevor didn't contribute to illegal Library Manipulation, it's really interesting to note how dragon mantle was flipped sort of callously, at the exact same moment he tossed the dice. His opponents eyeline following the dice rather than the game. His opponent also seemed to be very off kilter the entire match, probably jitters for a high level event.
I think a forfeiture of prizes for that event is in order. I do not believe a temporary suspension or ban is in order.
Why? Because anyone on the internet is allowed to post whatever story they want as 'proof.' Unfortunately 'This time I played him at a GP Trevor made me Mulligan to 5!' Doesn't constitute proof. Even if multiple people come forward, it could be considered a hive mentality. And on top of that research would have to be done to even verify the validity of those claims, as in, did they play against Trevor at that certain event?
What we have is an on camera incident of this situation at hand. Nothing more.
We have a precedent of his opponent, again on camera, requesting that there be a judge to shuffle his library, and a Mutavault 'Negate'. (I'm all in favor of #NegateGate or.. #MutaGate, sounds catchy.)
In this incident, he should be forfeited of prizes, and a valid precedent made aware of to track this behavior in the future. It could be a simple mistake, but it seems a little too coincidental to be a 'minor error' that could award prizes, but not systematic enough, and again I stress this point, with enough proof (barring 'internet eye witnesses,' unless a report to a judge was made and filed), to justify a suspension or ban.
The commentator even calls the negate play as a given. After a fresh dialogue about Trevor's decision to block with the Mutavault.
It seems everyone forgot about summoning sickness that turn
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.