Ponder can sort top 3 cards and draw 1, or shuffle those useless cards away and replace itself. I know it seems like a stupid banning (and it is) but Wizards of the Coast "believe" it is to strong for Modern. These are the people who kept Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl banned for years. They are dumb when it comes to the ban hammer most of the time. Kills off entire archetypes (and yes I am raging at their stupidity towards Modern's bannings, it's why I rarely play it).
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Ponder is banned because it added too much consistency to certain decks like Storm and Twin. Using cards like Ponder and Preordain (also banned), these combo decks were able to find their win conditions very reliably and very early in the game, as early as turn 2 or 3. WotC have taken the approach that such quick combo wins are unhealthy for the Modern format and have aggressively banned cards so that combo decks have difficulty winning before turn 4.
However, WotC does not want to completely kill combo, so they have chosen not to ban the cards involved in the actual combo (such as Splinter Twin). Instead, they banned the cards that made combo decks win quickly and consistently.
Firstly - Ponder might be a low-impact card, but it needs to be on the ban list more than Umezawa's Jitte or Jace, the Mind Sculptor do. (This isn't a call to unban those two).
The reason is that with Ponder and Preordain, turn 4 kills are just far too reliable in several combo decks.
If you unbanned the two big cantrip/card selection cards, you'd with one fell swoop remove all creature decks that don't run Thoughtseize or similar disruption from Modern.
Firstly - Ponder might be a low-impact card, but it needs to be on the ban list more than Umezawa's Jitte or Jace, the Mind Sculptor do. (This isn't a call to unban those two).
The reason is that with Ponder and Preordain, turn 4 kills are just far too reliable in several combo decks.
If you unbanned the two big cantrip/card selection cards, you'd with one fell swoop remove all creature decks that don't run Thoughtseize or similar disruption from Modern.
Although your forgetting the best decks interact with opponents. If your deck can't interact with multiple combo decks, you need to rethink your list. Even though I hate versing a storm deck in modern, with ponder and preordain cut out, its just no fun play against them. Besides, storm just dies to grave hate or a well placed removal spell on their goblins. So I see no problem here. Same reason with twin.
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Firstly - Ponder might be a low-impact card, but it needs to be on the ban list more than Umezawa's Jitte or Jace, the Mind Sculptor do. (This isn't a call to unban those two).
The reason is that with Ponder and Preordain, turn 4 kills are just far too reliable in several combo decks.
If you unbanned the two big cantrip/card selection cards, you'd with one fell swoop remove all creature decks that don't run Thoughtseize or similar disruption from Modern.
Although your forgetting the best decks interact with opponents. If your deck can't interact with multiple combo decks, you need to rethink your list. Even though I hate versing a storm deck in modern, with ponder and preordain cut out, its just no fun play against them. Besides, storm just dies to grave hate or a well placed removal spell on their goblins. So I see no problem here. Same reason with twin.
Actually, with P&P in Modern there is not enough early cards to play to interact to slow down or stop your opponent. Hence why P&P are banned. Speed and consistency was hurting the format. There was no reason not to play Storm in the format because it was very hard for any deck to interact before they won the game.
The biggest problem of the really good 1 mana draw spells is that they seriously increase chances to find what you need very quickly.
For numbers (and they are not accurate but just to give an idea) ; a deck with Ponder might have say 33% more chance to combo turn 4 , compared to now Ponder.
So the impact is huge.
A bunch of combo decks exist, most of them are simply not consistent enough and Splinter Twin is a pretty stupid combo (which i would like to see banned anyway, simply because its such a annoying combo that specificly asks for instant-speed removal or you are dead, which isnt a fun way to play the game at all).
Modern has its little pseudo rules and they aim to bann cards that would result in a format with less viable decks in quantity.
Some cards are clearly "too strong" , but as long as you have a bunch of them around, and they somehow counter each other to different kinds of hate cards ; the format looks kinda healthy.
---------------------------------------
I mean Affinity asks for specific hate cards,
Twin asks for specific hate cards (instant speed removal and stuff like Torpor Orb etc.),
Pod decks ask for specific removal
Living end asks for specific kinds of removal (graveyard hate and such)
Tron asks for specific hate (counterspells / blood moon / discard, or extraction for its few win options)
So the universal deal with the modern format is that you would need specific cards for a fair deal of "different" decks, which you cant really do consistently, and thats what keeps its meta game alive and moving ; while some decks might be clearly too good, if people pack the hate, other decks that are not hated become good again.
Legacy kinda works the same in that regards and its the only real way to keep the game alive ; as otherwise it would mean to ban-hammer everything thats good, and then something else will be good, and asks for the ban-hammer again. Every format has its "best-cards" and "best-decks" , no matter what, as long as the format can adapt to the problem to "hate it out" , the meta game self-regulates.
Ponder in that respect is not a card that wins by itself, it simply makes specific decks (namely blue) more consistent, and Ponder is pretty good set-up spell for Delver too.
So its not too out of the world to see it banned.
The format still has Serum Visions which is quite similiar, still worse than Ponder. But having "both" and then even adding Sleigh of hand (and/or Githaxian Probe) , incredible consistent to find its combo and some answers to the few hate the opponent might have (as i said, the only real problem you have as twin is finding your combo in time, then make sure the opponent doesnt instant-speed your creature, then the way is free to win; its a pretty stupid combo in that regards).
Drawing a card is much better than a 1/1 when the format is fast enough that you can reasonably expect to be able to play any of the cards in your hand before the game ends.
Especially when there are cards like Sage of Epityr which is almost better because you get a 1/1 out of it.
Ponder isn't even that great?
It's good but not enough to ban it?
Sage is nowhere near as good because it doesn't draw a card. Those three words are huge.
Anyways the actual reason Ponder and Preordain are banned is because of Sam Black popularizing an infect combo deck at Philly I think it was (though credit where it's due, a guy on this forum came up with it first and quietly put up some amazing results). The deck had about a 50% chance of a T2 kill in Modern and almost guaranteed T3 kill (while being able to hold up counterspells) which was way too fast. In response to that deck Ponder and Preordain were banned. Since then we've had the rise of other combo decks like Storm which skirts the T4 rule and Twin which isn't the fastest but is very consistent. In order to keep combo in the T4 range the general feeling in R&D is that cheap deck manipulation needs to be below a certain quantity and quality. That's why we're limited to Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand.
As far as the assertion that Ponder isn't that great goes. It's restricted in Vintage. That puts it in the same company as Black Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring, Brainstorm, and Fastbond. Make no mistake, the card is very very strong.
As far as the assertion that Ponder isn't that great goes. It's restricted in Vintage. That puts it in the same company as Black Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring, Brainstorm, and Fastbond. Make no mistake, the card is very very strong.
I wouldn't compare Ponder to those cards.
It's too good for Modern because of its combo enabling potential but it's not on par with the broken fast mana.
Pretty much what has been said; Ponder and Preordain made combo decks way too consistent, but Wizards doesn't like to ban deck archetypes like combo; they just ban anything that makes them too consistent.
Banning these two lets people continue to play the combo decks they like without making them consistent.
As far as the assertion that Ponder isn't that great goes. It's restricted in Vintage. That puts it in the same company as Black Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring, Brainstorm, and Fastbond. Make no mistake, the card is very very strong.
I wouldn't compare Ponder to those cards.
It's too good for Modern because of its combo enabling potential but it's not on par with the broken fast mana.
Ok then, it's restricted alongside Brainstorm (and we've seen what that card does to Legacy) and Tinker. Ponder is still ridiculously powerful.
As far as the assertion that Ponder isn't that great goes. It's restricted in Vintage. That puts it in the same company as Black Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring, Brainstorm, and Fastbond. Make no mistake, the card is very very strong.
I wouldn't compare Ponder to those cards.
It's too good for Modern because of its combo enabling potential but it's not on par with the broken fast mana.
Ok then, it's restricted alongside Brainstorm (and we've seen what that card does to Legacy) and Tinker. Ponder is still ridiculously powerful.
Ponder, Brainstorm, and Tinker? No. More like Ponder, Gifts Ungiven, and Trinisphere. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on what should and shouldn't be on the Modern banned list, but Ponder is significantly weaker in Modern than it is in Vintage because the cards you're digging for aren't nearly as impactful.
Someone decided that Ponder/Preordain made combo too consistent. They also agreed that Preordain/Serum Visions was too consistent, so they went with Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand. To recap:
1. Ponder/Preordain - Not okay.
2. Preordain/Serum Visions - Barely not okay.
3. Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand - Okay.
Get it? (by saying someone, I obviously mean the WotC team that decides the Modern ban and unban list)
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Modern is already a format that many argue has too many combo decks in the metagame, thank god Ponder and Preordain are banned, they are ridiculously overpowered library manipulation for just a single mana. Serum Visions is a more appropriate level effect for the mere cost a single mana. If you want to manipulate your hand/library/draws to the extend that preordain and ponder do, you should have to pay at least 2 mana.
Modern is too sanitized in my personal opinion, but the Ponder/Preordain ban had to do with Storm/Twin and their ability to break the WotC vision of the turn four rule if they were not on the ban list. Hence to "preserve the format integrity", they were banned. I use the quotation mark because not all cards banned are banned for power level. Cards are restricted and banned in formats for different reasons and due to their highly different meta games. As another poster pointed out, Brainstorm and friends are restricted because the power level of your average card in vintage is much higher.
Modern is too sanitized in my personal opinion, but the Ponder/Preordain ban had to do with Storm/Twin and their ability to break the WotC vision of the turn four rule if they were not on the ban list.
Theoretically, it doesn't. However, it won PT Philly (the event that led to the bannings). Link: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/792
Deck was consistent keeping the speed it has now. It won the even where all the other "broken" things were happening. Difference here is, this deck was a consistent, hard T4 instead of what is now available. Most of the cards in this list are the same in an average Twin list too. Not that much has changed in 2014 from 2011.
It's important to note that scanning this link: http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptphi11/topmoderndecks
most decks that could run Ponder, did run it. You'll see a lot of other ban list offenders in Modern in these deck lists. Looking back on this event, and looking at modern as format now. I just kind of sigh.
Modern is too sanitized in my personal opinion, but the Ponder/Preordain ban had to do with Storm/Twin and their ability to break the WotC vision of the turn four rule if they were not on the ban list.
How does twin ever break the turn four rule?
The problem for twin was it just made it too consistent, not that it broke the t4 rule any faster. Storm is the one that was made to consistently break the t4 rule too often which is a problem.
Why ban the deck manipulation items instead of the more powerful comboing cards themselves?
Because deck manipulation and consistency comes mainly from one color. By allowing P&P back in the format, you would see a huge up tick of blue in decks. BGx decks would be BUG decks instead of BGw or BGr, simply because of the consistency blue could bring if P&P or any high level deck manipulation was allowed into Modern.
Why ban the deck manipulation items instead of the more powerful comboing cards themselves?
Bocephus nailed part of the issue, but the other half is that it limits design space. If you ban Splinter Twin for being too consistent then every similar combo in the future becomes an immediate ban so they cannot design cards that do so even accidentally.
I see those points. There's a really silly Timmy (anti-Timmy?) part of me that would love to watch a format where combo players have a bunch of insanely powerful deck manipulation but then have to use ridiculously weak not yet banned win conditions to win.
did you just compare ponder to sage of epityr?? one draws a card and shuffles away bad cards while another is just a vanilla 1/1 body that dies to everything and attacks past nothing. thats it i quit magic lol
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Does anyone know why Ponder is banned in modern?
Especially when there are cards like Sage of Epityr which is almost better because you get a 1/1 out of it.
Ponder isn't even that great?
It's good but not enough to ban it?
Ponder cantrips, twin and storm to keep it short.
There's also a banlist topic in the modern forum for further discussion, but I'm fairly certain they'll tell you essentially the same.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
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However, WotC does not want to completely kill combo, so they have chosen not to ban the cards involved in the actual combo (such as Splinter Twin). Instead, they banned the cards that made combo decks win quickly and consistently.
The reason is that with Ponder and Preordain, turn 4 kills are just far too reliable in several combo decks.
If you unbanned the two big cantrip/card selection cards, you'd with one fell swoop remove all creature decks that don't run Thoughtseize or similar disruption from Modern.
Although your forgetting the best decks interact with opponents. If your deck can't interact with multiple combo decks, you need to rethink your list. Even though I hate versing a storm deck in modern, with ponder and preordain cut out, its just no fun play against them. Besides, storm just dies to grave hate or a well placed removal spell on their goblins. So I see no problem here. Same reason with twin.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Actually, with P&P in Modern there is not enough early cards to play to interact to slow down or stop your opponent. Hence why P&P are banned. Speed and consistency was hurting the format. There was no reason not to play Storm in the format because it was very hard for any deck to interact before they won the game.
For numbers (and they are not accurate but just to give an idea) ; a deck with Ponder might have say 33% more chance to combo turn 4 , compared to now Ponder.
So the impact is huge.
A bunch of combo decks exist, most of them are simply not consistent enough and Splinter Twin is a pretty stupid combo (which i would like to see banned anyway, simply because its such a annoying combo that specificly asks for instant-speed removal or you are dead, which isnt a fun way to play the game at all).
Modern has its little pseudo rules and they aim to bann cards that would result in a format with less viable decks in quantity.
Some cards are clearly "too strong" , but as long as you have a bunch of them around, and they somehow counter each other to different kinds of hate cards ; the format looks kinda healthy.
---------------------------------------
I mean Affinity asks for specific hate cards,
Twin asks for specific hate cards (instant speed removal and stuff like Torpor Orb etc.),
Pod decks ask for specific removal
Living end asks for specific kinds of removal (graveyard hate and such)
Tron asks for specific hate (counterspells / blood moon / discard, or extraction for its few win options)
So the universal deal with the modern format is that you would need specific cards for a fair deal of "different" decks, which you cant really do consistently, and thats what keeps its meta game alive and moving ; while some decks might be clearly too good, if people pack the hate, other decks that are not hated become good again.
Legacy kinda works the same in that regards and its the only real way to keep the game alive ; as otherwise it would mean to ban-hammer everything thats good, and then something else will be good, and asks for the ban-hammer again. Every format has its "best-cards" and "best-decks" , no matter what, as long as the format can adapt to the problem to "hate it out" , the meta game self-regulates.
Ponder in that respect is not a card that wins by itself, it simply makes specific decks (namely blue) more consistent, and Ponder is pretty good set-up spell for Delver too.
So its not too out of the world to see it banned.
The format still has Serum Visions which is quite similiar, still worse than Ponder. But having "both" and then even adding Sleigh of hand (and/or Githaxian Probe) , incredible consistent to find its combo and some answers to the few hate the opponent might have (as i said, the only real problem you have as twin is finding your combo in time, then make sure the opponent doesnt instant-speed your creature, then the way is free to win; its a pretty stupid combo in that regards).
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Sage is nowhere near as good because it doesn't draw a card. Those three words are huge.
Anyways the actual reason Ponder and Preordain are banned is because of Sam Black popularizing an infect combo deck at Philly I think it was (though credit where it's due, a guy on this forum came up with it first and quietly put up some amazing results). The deck had about a 50% chance of a T2 kill in Modern and almost guaranteed T3 kill (while being able to hold up counterspells) which was way too fast. In response to that deck Ponder and Preordain were banned. Since then we've had the rise of other combo decks like Storm which skirts the T4 rule and Twin which isn't the fastest but is very consistent. In order to keep combo in the T4 range the general feeling in R&D is that cheap deck manipulation needs to be below a certain quantity and quality. That's why we're limited to Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand.
As far as the assertion that Ponder isn't that great goes. It's restricted in Vintage. That puts it in the same company as Black Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring, Brainstorm, and Fastbond. Make no mistake, the card is very very strong.
I wouldn't compare Ponder to those cards.
It's too good for Modern because of its combo enabling potential but it's not on par with the broken fast mana.
Banning these two lets people continue to play the combo decks they like without making them consistent.
Ok then, it's restricted alongside Brainstorm (and we've seen what that card does to Legacy) and Tinker. Ponder is still ridiculously powerful.
1. Ponder/Preordain - Not okay.
2. Preordain/Serum Visions - Barely not okay.
3. Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand - Okay.
Get it? (by saying someone, I obviously mean the WotC team that decides the Modern ban and unban list)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Modern is too sanitized in my personal opinion, but the Ponder/Preordain ban had to do with Storm/Twin and their ability to break the WotC vision of the turn four rule if they were not on the ban list. Hence to "preserve the format integrity", they were banned. I use the quotation mark because not all cards banned are banned for power level. Cards are restricted and banned in formats for different reasons and due to their highly different meta games. As another poster pointed out, Brainstorm and friends are restricted because the power level of your average card in vintage is much higher.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
Still, I would love to play with those cards in Modern.
Solution: Unban P/P, and ban all other Storm enablers!
Stormers, you're ruining everything for the rest of us!
How does twin ever break the turn four rule?
Deck was consistent keeping the speed it has now. It won the even where all the other "broken" things were happening. Difference here is, this deck was a consistent, hard T4 instead of what is now available. Most of the cards in this list are the same in an average Twin list too. Not that much has changed in 2014 from 2011.
It's important to note that scanning this link: http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptphi11/topmoderndecks
most decks that could run Ponder, did run it. You'll see a lot of other ban list offenders in Modern in these deck lists. Looking back on this event, and looking at modern as format now. I just kind of sigh.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
The problem for twin was it just made it too consistent, not that it broke the t4 rule any faster. Storm is the one that was made to consistently break the t4 rule too often which is a problem.
Why ban the deck manipulation items instead of the more powerful comboing cards themselves?
Because deck manipulation and consistency comes mainly from one color. By allowing P&P back in the format, you would see a huge up tick of blue in decks. BGx decks would be BUG decks instead of BGw or BGr, simply because of the consistency blue could bring if P&P or any high level deck manipulation was allowed into Modern.
Bocephus nailed part of the issue, but the other half is that it limits design space. If you ban Splinter Twin for being too consistent then every similar combo in the future becomes an immediate ban so they cannot design cards that do so even accidentally.