When Xathrid slyblade was revealed, some players disliked how a black card had hexproof, but I myself believe that any color, other than red, can have access to hexproof and shroud, from both a mechanical and a flavor perspective.
From both a mechanical and a flavor perspective, white and green are the colors of healing and protection, so those mechanics are examples of those colors protecting or healing others; black and blue are the colors of deception and secrecy, so those mechanics are examples of how those colors operate in secret and deceive others.
Only red, the most aggressive and straightforward and least defensive and subtle of the colors in this game, should not have access to those mechanics, as they do not make sense in it, from either a flavor or a mechanical perspective.
What does everyone else say about this? Do you believe that shroud and hexproof make sense in all colors other than red?
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And it's easy to justify hexproof/shroud in red. Happens in RPGs all the time with various fire shields and whatnot. Various fire or fire-themed characters also use fire as protection (Marvel's pheonix and human torch). Various anime characters use fire as protection.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
You might want to change the title. I thought you were saying that hexproof should only be in red.
From a flavor perspective, I feel like hexproof makes sense in green and blue. Green because of the whole thing about green being protected by nature or using the forest as camouflage, and blue because of the element of secrecy and deception. However, hexproof doesn't make sense in black or white IMO. Trickery and deception aren't actually part of black's color pie; they often appear in UB, but that comes from the blue part, not the black part. As for white, white gets protection and Auras, which fit white better than hexproof does.
FYI, shroud is retired, it was replaced by hexproof in M12.
From a flavor perspective, I feel like hexproof makes sense in green and blue. Green because of the whole thing about green being protected by nature or using the forest as camouflage, and blue because of the element of secrecy and deception. However, hexproof doesn't make sense in black or white IMO. Trickery and deception aren't actually part of black's color pie; they often appear in UB, but that comes from the blue part, not the black part. As for white, white gets protection and Auras, which fit white better than hexproof does.
I do not wish to be argumentative or disagreeable, but since when have deception and trickery not been traits of black? For as long as I have been playing the game (since the release of Eighth Edition), I have been under the impression that black is equally as deceptive and manipulative as is blue.
Black is indeed manipulative, but not inherently deceptive. In a secrecy-openness dichotomy, black is surprisingly neutral. They utilize all means for an end, both the underhanded and the overt, and doesn't value any of the methods in particular.
EDIT: That said, I happen to agree with your premise. I think hexproof works for green due to genetic resistances, white due to protection magic, blue due to secrecy, and black due to many of its creatures working from the shadows. (IE, it's reasonable for them to be ahrd to hit.) The flavor justification of fire armor is actually really specific and should not be the foundation for a color pie in my opinion. I think though that the only reason white doesn't have hexproof is that it already has damage prevention and protection from monicker so its protection magic is already present in the mechanics and it doesn't really need hexproof as a creature design tool.
Remember that black is allied with both blue and red. Black-red is neither deceitful nor particularly manipulative, but it is still very black.
I figure that hexproof can work for black if it's a top down design where the "sneaky" flavor of the card is represented by making a "sneaky" feeling mechanic, like Xathrid Slyblade and Lazav. But at the same time I don't want WotC to be making something like a common hexproof Hill Giant and randomly tacking on the Assassin creature type to justify it in black. And black already has regenerate as an anti-removal mechanic (granted, so does green, but green needs the extra boost because it has fewer/worse non-creature-based mechanics than black does).
Disagree. The best opportunity to icorporate hexproof/shroud mechanics would be with dwarves. Yes, we saw some,
but nothing too spectacular. I am talking about the classic, naturally resistant to magic dwarves that might happen at some point. I can easily see red dwarves with hexpoof and some equipment mechanic jumping at us in the future.
Blue is where hexproof makes the least sense to me flavorwise. Blue mages rarely care about enhancing their own meager troops, they only care about stopping the opponents from doing so. Shroud makes sense in blue, hexproof does not.
This brings up what keywords the colors 'should' have:
First strike: I can justify it in any color. I like it primary in red and white. I worry more about black and green just for the possible combo with deathtouch.
Double strike: Again, I like it primary in red and white. It's fine where it is. I actually would keep it out of green, just because suddenly Titanic Growth is comparable to Searing Wind for two mana on an unblocked creature.
Flying: All colors, maybe a little less in red. (If we have to have flying hate, some sort of Galvanic Blast-type effect could work. And kill Serra Angels. And not just be a blank card in 99% of games.) Probably a bunch of black creature types shouldn't fly, since it's kind of hard to stay afloat if you're rotting.
Trample: More in green and red. Maybe blue for a third color. Black more rarely, mostly on demons with the Lord of the Pit downside, and white rarest of all.
Landwalk: Fits more in blue and black, since it's all about being sneaky.
Protection: Must we? Okay, protection from enemy color and protection from your own color is in every color. Protection from ally color is restricted to white, though. Protection from...other stuff...is in the appropriate color (artifacts for green, enchantments for red and green, creatures for white and blue, lands for blue, low stat for green, high stat for white).
Regenerate: Not blue or red. (Wow, it seems like blue and red have a lot more in common than we give them credit for. Too bad you can't make hybrids out of nots.)
Lifelink: Primary in black. Definitely not blue or red.
Vigilance: Could make sense in white, green, or blue. Definitely not red.
Flash: Flash is hard to flavor, but green and blue work. More rarely red and white. Black doesn't need instant speed as much as the other colors, but redirect and fork are both red and blue, and damage prevention is certainly white. (The only black thing I can think of is "When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, regenerate target creature.", but that's how green and white would regenerate.)
Deathtouch: Black/green, easy.
Intimidate: I like it where it is, though I'd make sure it's at least relevant on the next green card it's printed on.
Reach: I definitely would prefer this to be white/black. Spiders themselves actually have a blue/black flavor, when you think about it. But I like it more in a defensive color like white. Oh, definitely keep out of red. Actually, my biggest complaint about reach is how it's always overcosted.
Hexproof: Primary in green/blue (hosing removal, which they should suck at), white gets "you have hexproof".
Fight: Primary in green, secondary in red, tertiary in white (dueling)
Indestructible: I like it where it is currently.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Why shouldn't red have it? If the creature is too fast for you to hit it with a Lightning Bolt, Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, or any other spell, it's basically like it has Shroud, right? Obviously speed doesn't matter when it destroys the world, like Day of Judgement or a wide spread Pyroclasm. After all, movies convey this notion all the time with things like bullet time, which shows characters dodging bullets in slow motion.
Now what does red have a lot of, well it's Haste, and haste is speed... Also, The Flash wears Red.
So we get the enemy colored painlands and not the allied color ones? Well that's reverse of the norm, but I thought Wizards was planning to do full 10 land cycles from now on.
Enemy pains could indicate allied Fetches in the next set, to offset the colour imbalance. It would also make sense since it would allow Modern to have access to all 10 Fetches as opposed to only 5.
Or you could read the article, and now that's not true.
Why shouldn't red have it? If the creature is too fast for you to hit it with a Lightning Bolt, Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, or any other spell, it's basically like it has Shroud, right? Obviously speed doesn't matter when it destroys the world, like Day of Judgement or a wide spread Pyroclasm. After all, movies convey this notion all the time with things like bullet time, which shows characters dodging bullets in slow motion.
Now what does red have a lot of, well it's Haste, and haste is speed... Also, The Flash wears Red.
Strictly speaking, red doesn't really fit with dodging removal, though. Red is supposed to be short-sighted: You're not supposed to have to worry about what happens on turn 7 or 8 because you won on turn 5 or 6. Protection and indestructible can be red things (tertiary) because every color gets them.
I'd actually like to see more red flash, just because a lot of red abilities (fork, deflection, +X/+0, direct damage) work very differently as instants than as sorceries. Two of those don't work as sorceries at all.
I'd actually see flash as primary in blue and green, secondary in red, tertiary in white and quaternary in black.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Strictly speaking, red doesn't really fit with dodging removal, though.
Red is supposed to be short-sighted:
So you're saying dodging doesn't require physical dexterity, which is a matter of speed?
As for short sightedness, shouldn't that also play into things like Shroud? The creatures just wants to move fast and dodge, it doesn't care if it's a friendly or hostile spell, it's just ready to dodge it.
So we get the enemy colored painlands and not the allied color ones? Well that's reverse of the norm, but I thought Wizards was planning to do full 10 land cycles from now on.
Enemy pains could indicate allied Fetches in the next set, to offset the colour imbalance. It would also make sense since it would allow Modern to have access to all 10 Fetches as opposed to only 5.
Or you could read the article, and now that's not true.
Strictly speaking, red doesn't really fit with dodging removal, though.
Red is supposed to be short-sighted:
So you're saying dodging doesn't require physical dexterity, which is a matter of speed?
As for short sightedness, shouldn't that also play into things like Shroud? The creatures just wants to move fast and dodge, it doesn't care if it's a friendly or hostile spell, it's just ready to dodge it.
This, you could also easily make a goblin anti magic flavor wise guy/tribe
Anti Magic Gobbo Tribe
Flavor text 1: "Its not that they dont understand magic, they don´t do magic" Teferi or another wizard guy
Flavor text 2: "Magic?, organization?, laws? Humans made up the weirdest things" Gobbo leader Y
Flavor text 3: "I heard in the past that annoying bug have magic immunity, now i see it" Gerrad or another hero guy
Flavor text 4: "Why i have to worry about magic? what magic have done for me?" Gobbo leader X
I would actually go one step further. Red not only has no real flavor justification for having hexproof, but does have flavor justification for not having it. Red is the color of freedom, and it goes against that philosophy by restricting what others can do. Red will happily let you target it, because Red believes every color should be allowed to whatever it wants.
Because Red is about more than blowing stuff up.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Red is the color of creativity.
R&D demonstrates this by desigining the least creative and objectively worse cards for red.
And this will continue since they keep claiming Lightning Bolt is the best card in modern So everyone can have Snapcasters, Stoneforges, Deathrites, Lilianas, Jaces, Ionas, Thoughtseizes, GSZeniths, etc. Meanwhile red will continue to be punished because Bolt is too efficient.
Snapcaster is really the worst example, since it could've been a red card, but Chan insisted on it being a blue card.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I feel red could have Hexproof, if only because of all of the reasons stated above.
They would shrug off any incoming spell and keep charging forward, they're reckless and don't have time to consider what you just did to them. Maybe they should have activated abilities that give Hexproof. Or only Hexproof while attacking, something of that nature.
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From both a mechanical and a flavor perspective, white and green are the colors of healing and protection, so those mechanics are examples of those colors protecting or healing others; black and blue are the colors of deception and secrecy, so those mechanics are examples of how those colors operate in secret and deceive others.
Only red, the most aggressive and straightforward and least defensive and subtle of the colors in this game, should not have access to those mechanics, as they do not make sense in it, from either a flavor or a mechanical perspective.
What does everyone else say about this? Do you believe that shroud and hexproof make sense in all colors other than red?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
And it's easy to justify hexproof/shroud in red. Happens in RPGs all the time with various fire shields and whatnot. Various fire or fire-themed characters also use fire as protection (Marvel's pheonix and human torch). Various anime characters use fire as protection.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
From a flavor perspective, I feel like hexproof makes sense in green and blue. Green because of the whole thing about green being protected by nature or using the forest as camouflage, and blue because of the element of secrecy and deception. However, hexproof doesn't make sense in black or white IMO. Trickery and deception aren't actually part of black's color pie; they often appear in UB, but that comes from the blue part, not the black part. As for white, white gets protection and Auras, which fit white better than hexproof does.
FYI, shroud is retired, it was replaced by hexproof in M12.
I do not wish to be argumentative or disagreeable, but since when have deception and trickery not been traits of black? For as long as I have been playing the game (since the release of Eighth Edition), I have been under the impression that black is equally as deceptive and manipulative as is blue.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
EDIT: That said, I happen to agree with your premise. I think hexproof works for green due to genetic resistances, white due to protection magic, blue due to secrecy, and black due to many of its creatures working from the shadows. (IE, it's reasonable for them to be ahrd to hit.) The flavor justification of fire armor is actually really specific and should not be the foundation for a color pie in my opinion. I think though that the only reason white doesn't have hexproof is that it already has damage prevention and protection from monicker so its protection magic is already present in the mechanics and it doesn't really need hexproof as a creature design tool.
I figure that hexproof can work for black if it's a top down design where the "sneaky" flavor of the card is represented by making a "sneaky" feeling mechanic, like Xathrid Slyblade and Lazav. But at the same time I don't want WotC to be making something like a common hexproof Hill Giant and randomly tacking on the Assassin creature type to justify it in black. And black already has regenerate as an anti-removal mechanic (granted, so does green, but green needs the extra boost because it has fewer/worse non-creature-based mechanics than black does).
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but nothing too spectacular. I am talking about the classic, naturally resistant to magic dwarves that might happen at some point. I can easily see red dwarves with hexpoof and some equipment mechanic jumping at us in the future.
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First strike: I can justify it in any color. I like it primary in red and white. I worry more about black and green just for the possible combo with deathtouch.
Double strike: Again, I like it primary in red and white. It's fine where it is. I actually would keep it out of green, just because suddenly Titanic Growth is comparable to Searing Wind for two mana on an unblocked creature.
Flying: All colors, maybe a little less in red. (If we have to have flying hate, some sort of Galvanic Blast-type effect could work. And kill Serra Angels. And not just be a blank card in 99% of games.) Probably a bunch of black creature types shouldn't fly, since it's kind of hard to stay afloat if you're rotting.
Trample: More in green and red. Maybe blue for a third color. Black more rarely, mostly on demons with the Lord of the Pit downside, and white rarest of all.
Landwalk: Fits more in blue and black, since it's all about being sneaky.
Protection: Must we? Okay, protection from enemy color and protection from your own color is in every color. Protection from ally color is restricted to white, though. Protection from...other stuff...is in the appropriate color (artifacts for green, enchantments for red and green, creatures for white and blue, lands for blue, low stat for green, high stat for white).
Regenerate: Not blue or red. (Wow, it seems like blue and red have a lot more in common than we give them credit for. Too bad you can't make hybrids out of nots.)
Lifelink: Primary in black. Definitely not blue or red.
Vigilance: Could make sense in white, green, or blue. Definitely not red.
Flash: Flash is hard to flavor, but green and blue work. More rarely red and white. Black doesn't need instant speed as much as the other colors, but redirect and fork are both red and blue, and damage prevention is certainly white. (The only black thing I can think of is "When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, regenerate target creature.", but that's how green and white would regenerate.)
Deathtouch: Black/green, easy.
Intimidate: I like it where it is, though I'd make sure it's at least relevant on the next green card it's printed on.
Reach: I definitely would prefer this to be white/black. Spiders themselves actually have a blue/black flavor, when you think about it. But I like it more in a defensive color like white. Oh, definitely keep out of red. Actually, my biggest complaint about reach is how it's always overcosted.
Hexproof: Primary in green/blue (hosing removal, which they should suck at), white gets "you have hexproof".
Fight: Primary in green, secondary in red, tertiary in white (dueling)
Indestructible: I like it where it is currently.
On phasing:
Now what does red have a lot of, well it's Haste, and haste is speed... Also, The Flash wears Red.
Oh... Ok... Clearly.
Strictly speaking, red doesn't really fit with dodging removal, though. Red is supposed to be short-sighted: You're not supposed to have to worry about what happens on turn 7 or 8 because you won on turn 5 or 6. Protection and indestructible can be red things (tertiary) because every color gets them.
I'd actually like to see more red flash, just because a lot of red abilities (fork, deflection, +X/+0, direct damage) work very differently as instants than as sorceries. Two of those don't work as sorceries at all.
I'd actually see flash as primary in blue and green, secondary in red, tertiary in white and quaternary in black.
On phasing:
So you're saying dodging doesn't require physical dexterity, which is a matter of speed?
As for short sightedness, shouldn't that also play into things like Shroud? The creatures just wants to move fast and dodge, it doesn't care if it's a friendly or hostile spell, it's just ready to dodge it.
Oh... Ok... Clearly.
This, you could also easily make a goblin anti magic flavor wise guy/tribe
Anti Magic Gobbo Tribe
Flavor text 1: "Its not that they dont understand magic, they don´t do magic" Teferi or another wizard guy
Flavor text 2: "Magic?, organization?, laws? Humans made up the weirdest things" Gobbo leader Y
Flavor text 3: "I heard in the past that annoying bug have magic immunity, now i see it" Gerrad or another hero guy
Flavor text 4: "Why i have to worry about magic? what magic have done for me?" Gobbo leader X
Because Red is about more than blowing stuff up.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
R&D demonstrates this by desigining the least creative and objectively worse cards for red.
And this will continue since they keep claiming Lightning Bolt is the best card in modern So everyone can have Snapcasters, Stoneforges, Deathrites, Lilianas, Jaces, Ionas, Thoughtseizes, GSZeniths, etc. Meanwhile red will continue to be punished because Bolt is too efficient.
On phasing:
They would shrug off any incoming spell and keep charging forward, they're reckless and don't have time to consider what you just did to them. Maybe they should have activated abilities that give Hexproof. Or only Hexproof while attacking, something of that nature.