Basically, taking mana burn away says a pretty big "**** you" to people who played block constructed in Standard.
Ummm, wat? This makes no sense. Block constructed before m10 would have still had mana burn, and after m10 it was designed with no mana burn in mind. In what way has no mana burn made specifically block constructed specifically worse?
Have you ever played Mercadian Masques block?
I still have no idea what you're talking about...
(1) is there some particular reason why mana burn was particularly relevant in Masques block?
(2) are there a non-trivial number of people who actively play Masques block constructed?
(3) I'm still confused by your phrasing: people who played block constructed in Standard. What does that mean?
Basically, taking mana burn away says a pretty big "**** you" to people who played block constructed in Standard.
Ummm, wat? This makes no sense. Block constructed before m10 would have still had mana burn, and after m10 it was designed with no mana burn in mind. In what way has no mana burn made specifically block constructed specifically worse?
Have you ever played Mercadian Masques block?
Does anyone still play Mercadian masques block? Lol.
It'd take a lot more than bringing back mana burn to make mercadian masques block even remotely fun. It's almost as lame as kamigawa's.
Whoa, hey now lets not get crazy here... Kamigawa was an awesome set.
Oh don't get me wrong, I LOVED kamigawa constructed and it's allowed me to brew endlessly. It's JUST the draft environment that was awful haha. Stalled board states ALL THE TIME.
Basically, taking mana burn away says a pretty big "**** you" to people who played block constructed in Standard.
Ummm, wat? This makes no sense. Block constructed before m10 would have still had mana burn, and after m10 it was designed with no mana burn in mind. In what way has no mana burn made specifically block constructed specifically worse?
Have you ever played Mercadian Masques block?
Does anyone still play Mercadian masques block? Lol.
what i mean is that back in that day finding a way to tap out in order for your monster to get bigger and attack was a huge deal. citadel of pain and chimeric idol were KEY parts in draft that now are completely useless. Of course outside of Masques block it doesn't matter at all, but it's one of the little examples i can find.
what i mean is that back in that day finding a way to tap out in order for your monster to get bigger and attack was a huge deal. citadel of pain and chimeric idol were KEY parts in draft that now are completely useless. Of course outside of Masques block it doesn't matter at all, but it's one of the little examples i can find.
Umm, do you think that chimeric idol caused mana burn when you tapped all your lands? Cause I am 99.9% sure it didn't. It's also working just fine (in terms of being a decent card) in vintage masters, where there is no mana burn.
And yes, citadel of pain is one of the few actual victims of mana burn.
It is a pity then that players dont get to play the real control mirrors anymore. Those where some stunning spellslinging. You cant just do that anymore. I'm not totally convinced that getting you creature countered is in anyway worst than getting him doombladed or ripped from your hand before you even get to play him.
Ugh. I am so sick of hearing this complaint. You do realize that the pro tour was just won by about as classic a UW control deck as you can get, right? It's only MD win condition besides waiting for the opponent to draw his or her entire deck while recycling with elixir was ultimating jace and taking your opponent's best win condition and mutavaults, right? And that the mutavaults were often just thrown in front of attacking creatures? If you don't call a deck with 7 wrath effects, 6 counterspells, 8 cantrips, 10 draw spells and 0 creatures a "real" control deck, I don't know what to tell you.
Oh, or are you one of those players that only considers mono-U draw-go 20 counter.dec a "real" control deck? Speaking of opinions I don't understand...
I'm not sure what consist a real control deck but yes I was referring to this type of control deck which we definately dont see in standard anymore.
Just BTW you dont need to expplain to me what kind of deck recently won a pro tour.
I'm not sure what consist a real control deck but yes I was referring to this type of control deck which we definately dont see in standard anymore.
Just BTW you dont need to expplain to me what kind of deck recently won a pro tour.
Well, since you were lamenting the death of "real" control without defining what you meant, it seemed that you might need a reminder of the current magic landscape. I mean, I guess it's great that you think draw,go control is the only kind of real control, but that's certainly not a consensus in the MTG community.
Oh, and there's nothing more inherently impressive/difficult/exciting about piloting a draw, go deck as opposed to other types of control (or other types of decks, for that matter.) The first deck in the article you linked's plan was literally "counter everything until you get whispers of the muse online or you have a disc in hand and can get more than a 1-for-1, then slowly kill them with your manlands or impossible-to-kill-because-split-second-didn't-exist efreet." That's not particularly impressive or difficult. The rest all have a fairly similar plan.
Basically, taking mana burn away says a pretty big "**** you" to people who played block constructed in Standard.
Ummm, wat? This makes no sense. Block constructed before m10 would have still had mana burn, and after m10 it was designed with no mana burn in mind. In what way has no mana burn made specifically block constructed specifically worse?
Have you ever played Mercadian Masques block?
Does anyone still play Mercadian masques block? Lol.
Really, I can't think of anything less fun than playing a rebel mirror match and all we ever do is shuffle.
I'm not sure what consist a real control deck but yes I was referring to this type of control deck which we definately dont see in standard anymore.
Just BTW you dont need to expplain to me what kind of deck recently won a pro tour.
Speaking of opinions I don't get, your idea of a 'real' control deck is interesting, since I've played Stax, land destruction, Winter Orb (though these are just Stax variants)...I could go on, but tl;dr: not every control deck is 9001 counterspells and a single creature.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't understand why people complain about card prices when they're playing casually. Just make proxies. If you don't have disposable income and you want the cards to play in tournaments, manage your budget better if you have a job and if you don't have a job, get one. Having problems paying for food? Get food stamps/EBT and go to food banks. Unemployed or unable to work, or you can't get a job? Get unemployment, disability, or welfare. Too young to work? Go mow people's lawns. I'm sure your parents have a lawnmower, and if they don't for some reason, ask them to buy you one so you can earn yourself some money. If it snows where you live, shovel driveways.
You shouldn't be complaining about card prices when you can do something about it. If rent/utilities are your problem, live with your parents.
...you are joking, right?!? tapping your OPPONENT'S LAND for YOUR SPELLS is useless without Mana Burn? I mean, seriously! I JUST heard about that card, and I'm already breaking it!
"oh, hi, I hope you don't mind, but your going to pay for my Time Stretch! no, you don't get any benefit from it! why would you think a silly thing like that?!?"
and this in multiplayer?!? tapping the resources of FOUR PEOPLE for your spells?!? how is that useless, in any sense of the word?
On topic: people who believe that because a card that doesn't fill the niche they want, it is completely useless.
You shouldn't be complaining about card prices when you can do something about it. If rent/utilities are your problem, live with your parents.
I have to disagree with the last bit. Its much more adult to complain on a random internet forum about card prices then it is to move back in with mom in dad, in order to fuel your hobby. Prices are high, people will complain. Isnt it be more adult to just suck it up and budget, and proxie until then? Yes it is, but there are probably many who enjoy doing both. I dont mind the complaints until they become trolls claiming people with no skill are just buying good decks and beating their amazing pile of budget jank.
...you are joking, right?!? tapping your OPPONENT'S LAND for YOUR SPELLS is useless without Mana Burn? I mean, seriously! I JUST heard about that card, and I'm already breaking it!
"oh, hi, I hope you don't mind, but your going to pay for my Time Stretch! no, you don't get any benefit from it! why would you think a silly thing like that?!?"
and this in multiplayer?!? tapping the resources of FOUR PEOPLE for your spells?!? how is that useless, in any sense of the word?
On topic: people who believe that because a card that doesn't fill the niche they want, it is completely useless.
Because you cast Piracy, and they just tap all their lands in response and float all that mana. Without mana-burn there is no reason not to do this, which means you don't actually get to tap/use any of their lands.
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...you are joking, right?!? tapping your OPPONENT'S LAND for YOUR SPELLS is useless without Mana Burn? I mean, seriously! I JUST heard about that card, and I'm already breaking it!
"oh, hi, I hope you don't mind, but your going to pay for my Time Stretch! no, you don't get any benefit from it! why would you think a silly thing like that?!?"
and this in multiplayer?!? tapping the resources of FOUR PEOPLE for your spells?!? how is that useless, in any sense of the word?
On topic: people who believe that because a card that doesn't fill the niche they want, it is completely useless.
Because you cast Piracy, and they just tap all their lands in response and float all that mana. Without mana-burn there is no reason not to do this, which means you don't actually get to tap/use any of their lands.
Couldn't you still use that for your advantage? I meant casting Piracy in the first main, to at least get them tapped out before combat? Seems still like an option...
...you are joking, right?!? tapping your OPPONENT'S LAND for YOUR SPELLS is useless without Mana Burn? I mean, seriously! I JUST heard about that card, and I'm already breaking it!
"oh, hi, I hope you don't mind, but your going to pay for my Time Stretch! no, you don't get any benefit from it! why would you think a silly thing like that?!?"
and this in multiplayer?!? tapping the resources of FOUR PEOPLE for your spells?!? how is that useless, in any sense of the word?
On topic: people who believe that because a card that doesn't fill the niche they want, it is completely useless.
Because you cast Piracy, and they just tap all their lands in response and float all that mana. Without mana-burn there is no reason not to do this, which means you don't actually get to tap/use any of their lands.
Couldn't you still use that for your advantage? I meant casting Piracy in the first main, to at least get them tapped out before combat? Seems still like an option...
Still awful. It's better to just use Silence, Abeyance, etc. But let's be real - Piracy was never great.
Reprinting Theros block cards in M15 was similarly irksome. That space could've gone to new cards that might've made the format that little bit more diverse.
Interesting article from Brad Nelson (SCG Premium 8/15/14) regarding the last year of Standard.
{w}e got to play an entire year with the same archetypes, the same decks with only minor modifications, and the same questions to be answered. This was a year based on logical understanding of how every card interacts with each other and not about how to "break" the format. Surviving in Standard has been about realizing trends and understanding the next move. Those moves are just more subtle than they have been in the past.
Getting to play an entire year in this Standard format is one of the best "crash courses" into understanding how to become a great deckbuilder. Innovating brand new archetypes is a daunting task that only after years of playing the game can someone truly have the foundation of understanding all of the intricacies. Nothing compares to being able to master a deck for an entire year, test countless different cards, begin to understand what is needed when predicting a metagame, and then executing with the ability to back it up. Most of these decisions are based on theory, but in this format they can be executed enough times to obtain mastery.
I'm relatively new to Magic (about a year and a half of play) but I have enjoyed the last year of Standard. There have been some small changes in the meta along the way, but I was able to spend over half of the year playing the same archetype (adjusted slightly on a weekly basis). But, I haven't been forced to play the same deck, I've been able to "fool around" with some decks along the way and still be competitive. Maybe MBD, MUD, and UWx Control have won a majority of the big events, but GW Aggro, Brave Naya, Boros Burn, Red Aggro, RGx Monsters, and even Boros Tokens have all come out on top of SCG Opens. Maybe I have mis-remembered some of these decks actually winning "big events", but they (and more) have been there in events just a notch below.
I'm really glad that a rogue archetype hasn't turned things upside down a time or two during this Standard. I'm also looking forward to this fall when things will change considerably. I don't mean to suggest that I want to play in a stagnant format (or I'd play Legacy or Modern ) but neither do I need it to change monthly. Small changes with new sets, big changes with yearly rotation, get to know the meta for a year, make adjustments along the way. Sounds good to me.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
Reprinting Theros block cards in M15 was similarly irksome. That space could've gone to new cards that might've made the format that little bit more diverse.
Interesting article from Brad Nelson (SCG Premium 8/15/14) regarding the last year of Standard.
{w}e got to play an entire year with the same archetypes, the same decks with only minor modifications, and the same questions to be answered. This was a year based on logical understanding of how every card interacts with each other and not about how to "break" the format. Surviving in Standard has been about realizing trends and understanding the next move. Those moves are just more subtle than they have been in the past.
Getting to play an entire year in this Standard format is one of the best "crash courses" into understanding how to become a great deckbuilder. Innovating brand new archetypes is a daunting task that only after years of playing the game can someone truly have the foundation of understanding all of the intricacies. Nothing compares to being able to master a deck for an entire year, test countless different cards, begin to understand what is needed when predicting a metagame, and then executing with the ability to back it up. Most of these decisions are based on theory, but in this format they can be executed enough times to obtain mastery.
I'm relatively new to Magic (about a year and a half of play) but I have enjoyed the last year of Standard. There have been some small changes in the meta along the way, but I was able to spend over half of the year playing the same archetype (adjusted slightly on a weekly basis). But, I haven't been forced to play the same deck, I've been able to "fool around" with some decks along the way and still be competitive. Maybe MBD, MUD, and UWx Control have won a majority of the big events, but GW Aggro, Brave Naya, Boros Burn, Red Aggro, RGx Monsters, and even Boros Tokens have all come out on top of SCG Opens. Maybe I have mis-remembered some of these decks actually winning "big events", but they (and more) have been there in events just a notch below.
I'm really glad that a rogue archetype hasn't turned things upside down a time or two during this Standard. I'm also looking forward to this fall when things will change considerably. I don't mean to suggest that I want to play in a stagnant format (or I'd play Legacy or Modern ) but neither do I need it to change monthly. Small changes with new sets, big changes with yearly rotation, get to know the meta for a year, make adjustments along the way. Sounds good to me.
I think you are very much in a minority. Yes pros like it because it takes less effort for consistency. But most players I feel want there to be changes set by set. This was one of the huge complaints against Born of the Gods. It just didn't do anything. I like my standard a little more swingy, but i guess that's because I play modern for consistency so I can leave standard if i'm displeased with it. I really hope theros isn't a sign of things to come. While not the weakest, (but it's close) it's been the least enjoyable standard I've played in. And i've been playing since onslaught.
I think you are very much in a minority. Yes pros like it because it takes less effort for consistency. But most players I feel want there to be changes set by set. This was one of the huge complaints against Born of the Gods. It just didn't do anything. I like my standard a little more swingy, but i guess that's because I play modern for consistency so I can leave standard if i'm displeased with it. I really hope theros isn't a sign of things to come. While not the weakest, (but it's close) it's been the least enjoyable standard I've played in. And i've been playing since onslaught.
I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion. I am no expert/pro and I have liked the Standard, so it's not just "pros like it for more consistency".
I think Nelson's point was more that there is a different skill set that has come into play in this Standard or that has been the focus of this Standard. It's more of a fine-tuning and adjusting to the meta rather than an attempt to break the format.
I recognize that many people like a swingy, brewing environment. If Wizards were to go too far in that direction, people would be complaining because they have to buy lots of new cards every month to keep up with all the changes. If Wizards slows the change a bit, people complain that the format is stagnant. I guess I'm in the middle, I think Wizards has done quite well balancing the two during this Standard.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
I'll never understand the idea of Goblin Guide being a good card
yes, please assure my land drops and help me draw into answers quicker in exchange for little to no damage
Against a Mono-Red deck, those 4-6 points of damage the guide will do to you WILL rack up rapidly. You might even have to chump block it to prevent it from killing you on it's own. This doesn't seem to be as much an opinion but rather something like not having seen Goblin Guide in actual action.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'll never understand the idea of Goblin Guide being a good card
yes, please assure my land drops and help me draw into answers quicker in exchange for little to no damage
Zero cards in hand and seven cards in hand are no different when your life total is zero. A deck with Goblin Guide aims to kill an opponent too quickly for the draw opportunity to matter.
I'll never understand the idea of Goblin Guide being a good card
yes, please assure my land drops and help me draw into answers quicker in exchange for little to no damage
In the kind of deck that runs Goblin Guide, one mana for three damage (i.e. Lightning Bolt) is considered baseline efficiency barring secondary effects. If Goblin Guide hits twice, then you've just done four damage for one mana. Three times and it's six damage for one mana. To be sure, there are matches where it's absolutely horrible (such as decks with a ton of one-mana removal that will happily kill it after its trigger but before damage), but in a general sense, it's very good at what it does.
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I still have no idea what you're talking about...
(1) is there some particular reason why mana burn was particularly relevant in Masques block?
(2) are there a non-trivial number of people who actively play Masques block constructed?
(3) I'm still confused by your phrasing: people who played block constructed in Standard. What does that mean?
Does anyone still play Mercadian masques block? Lol.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Whoa, hey now lets not get crazy here... Kamigawa was an awesome set.
Oh don't get me wrong, I LOVED kamigawa constructed and it's allowed me to brew endlessly. It's JUST the draft environment that was awful haha. Stalled board states ALL THE TIME.
what i mean is that back in that day finding a way to tap out in order for your monster to get bigger and attack was a huge deal. citadel of pain and chimeric idol were KEY parts in draft that now are completely useless. Of course outside of Masques block it doesn't matter at all, but it's one of the little examples i can find.
Umm, do you think that chimeric idol caused mana burn when you tapped all your lands? Cause I am 99.9% sure it didn't. It's also working just fine (in terms of being a decent card) in vintage masters, where there is no mana burn.
And yes, citadel of pain is one of the few actual victims of mana burn.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I'm not sure what consist a real control deck but yes I was referring to this type of control deck which we definately dont see in standard anymore.
Just BTW you dont need to expplain to me what kind of deck recently won a pro tour.
Well, since you were lamenting the death of "real" control without defining what you meant, it seemed that you might need a reminder of the current magic landscape. I mean, I guess it's great that you think draw,go control is the only kind of real control, but that's certainly not a consensus in the MTG community.
Oh, and there's nothing more inherently impressive/difficult/exciting about piloting a draw, go deck as opposed to other types of control (or other types of decks, for that matter.) The first deck in the article you linked's plan was literally "counter everything until you get whispers of the muse online or you have a disc in hand and can get more than a 1-for-1, then slowly kill them with your manlands or impossible-to-kill-because-split-second-didn't-exist efreet." That's not particularly impressive or difficult. The rest all have a fairly similar plan.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Really, I can't think of anything less fun than playing a rebel mirror match and all we ever do is shuffle.
But with Citadel of Pain, it's still playable with Winter Orb (or, in the same block, Rising Waters).
Speaking of opinions I don't get, your idea of a 'real' control deck is interesting, since I've played Stax, land destruction, Winter Orb (though these are just Stax variants)...I could go on, but tl;dr: not every control deck is 9001 counterspells and a single creature.
On phasing:
You shouldn't be complaining about card prices when you can do something about it. If rent/utilities are your problem, live with your parents.
"oh, hi, I hope you don't mind, but your going to pay for my Time Stretch! no, you don't get any benefit from it! why would you think a silly thing like that?!?"
and this in multiplayer?!? tapping the resources of FOUR PEOPLE for your spells?!? how is that useless, in any sense of the word?
On topic: people who believe that because a card that doesn't fill the niche they want, it is completely useless.
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
I have to disagree with the last bit. Its much more adult to complain on a random internet forum about card prices then it is to move back in with mom in dad, in order to fuel your hobby. Prices are high, people will complain. Isnt it be more adult to just suck it up and budget, and proxie until then? Yes it is, but there are probably many who enjoy doing both. I dont mind the complaints until they become trolls claiming people with no skill are just buying good decks and beating their amazing pile of budget jank.
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Because you cast Piracy, and they just tap all their lands in response and float all that mana. Without mana-burn there is no reason not to do this, which means you don't actually get to tap/use any of their lands.
Couldn't you still use that for your advantage? I meant casting Piracy in the first main, to at least get them tapped out before combat? Seems still like an option...
I'm relatively new to Magic (about a year and a half of play) but I have enjoyed the last year of Standard. There have been some small changes in the meta along the way, but I was able to spend over half of the year playing the same archetype (adjusted slightly on a weekly basis). But, I haven't been forced to play the same deck, I've been able to "fool around" with some decks along the way and still be competitive. Maybe MBD, MUD, and UWx Control have won a majority of the big events, but GW Aggro, Brave Naya, Boros Burn, Red Aggro, RGx Monsters, and even Boros Tokens have all come out on top of SCG Opens. Maybe I have mis-remembered some of these decks actually winning "big events", but they (and more) have been there in events just a notch below.
I'm really glad that a rogue archetype hasn't turned things upside down a time or two during this Standard. I'm also looking forward to this fall when things will change considerably. I don't mean to suggest that I want to play in a stagnant format (or I'd play Legacy or Modern ) but neither do I need it to change monthly. Small changes with new sets, big changes with yearly rotation, get to know the meta for a year, make adjustments along the way. Sounds good to me.
I think you are very much in a minority. Yes pros like it because it takes less effort for consistency. But most players I feel want there to be changes set by set. This was one of the huge complaints against Born of the Gods. It just didn't do anything. I like my standard a little more swingy, but i guess that's because I play modern for consistency so I can leave standard if i'm displeased with it. I really hope theros isn't a sign of things to come. While not the weakest, (but it's close) it's been the least enjoyable standard I've played in. And i've been playing since onslaught.
I think Nelson's point was more that there is a different skill set that has come into play in this Standard or that has been the focus of this Standard. It's more of a fine-tuning and adjusting to the meta rather than an attempt to break the format.
I recognize that many people like a swingy, brewing environment. If Wizards were to go too far in that direction, people would be complaining because they have to buy lots of new cards every month to keep up with all the changes. If Wizards slows the change a bit, people complain that the format is stagnant. I guess I'm in the middle, I think Wizards has done quite well balancing the two during this Standard.
Or even just Mana Short because unlike Piracy, at least that one empties their mana pool too.
yes, please assure my land drops and help me draw into answers quicker in exchange for little to no damage
Against a Mono-Red deck, those 4-6 points of damage the guide will do to you WILL rack up rapidly. You might even have to chump block it to prevent it from killing you on it's own. This doesn't seem to be as much an opinion but rather something like not having seen Goblin Guide in actual action.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
In the kind of deck that runs Goblin Guide, one mana for three damage (i.e. Lightning Bolt) is considered baseline efficiency barring secondary effects. If Goblin Guide hits twice, then you've just done four damage for one mana. Three times and it's six damage for one mana. To be sure, there are matches where it's absolutely horrible (such as decks with a ton of one-mana removal that will happily kill it after its trigger but before damage), but in a general sense, it's very good at what it does.