So I went to my favorite LGS on Sat for the M15 prerelease.
My first round, I got matched up against one of the employees/co-owner of the Store, and a pretty well-known character that most people seem to get along with. I haven't known him for that long, but he seems like a pretty cool guy. Unfortunately, he had terrible luck and got mana-screwed the first game, then mulliganed and got mana-flooded the second game. He literally cast 3 creatures the first game and maybe 1 or 2 spells/creatures the second.
Honestly, these are the types of games I hate to win, because it doesn't feel much like Victory if you're opponent can't play anything.
After he lost, I mumbled something to the effect of "Sorry about your luck, wish I could say Good Game, but it kinda wasn't"
Then, without much hesitation, he started unsleeving his cards and ripping them in half. Not in a violent way, just a silent, resentful "I hate this Deck" kinda way.
I noticed he set aside Soul of Innistrad and pointed out that he probably wouldn't want to tear that one, to which he responded by promptly ripping it in half. Nothing in his deck was worth more than a few bucks, but I still felt it was kinda wasteful to tear up decent rares like Spirit Bonds, Preeminent Captain, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, and PhytoTitan. I almost wanted to stop him or ask if I could have his rares since he obviously didn't want them, but I just let him do his thing. Afterwards, I mentioned I probably would have purchased them, had I known he was going to do that. He jokingly referred to another time during the Nyx pre-release when he did the same thing and his opponent cautiously grabbed Ajani, Mentor of Heroes from his pile and said "Please don't hit me".
Anyways, I wasn't quite sure how to react. I almost regret not trying to obtain his rares since he apparently didn't care, and I hate seeing things of value go to waste. It also baffles me why he didn't just sell the cards in the Store's Showcase (particularly for higher value cards like Ajani)
Also, later in the night, 2 playesr had gone to turns and a lot people had gathered around to watch. I noticed that one player who had "Goblin Kaboomist" on the field wasn't flipping a coin every time he laid a mine during his upkeep. I pointed out that I believed you need to flip a coin during each upkeep. There was some debate about whether the coin should be flipped when the mines were activated, or during upkeep. The LGS employee read the card and determined the coin should be flipped during the upkeep. There was a little more discussion, but LGS guy started to become irritated and told everyone to vacate the area and let the 2 players finish their game.
I'm not sure if I should or Should not have pointed out the mistake. I'm guessing our LGS guy was just having a bad night.
You should talk about this with the owner of your LGS. He should be able to mediate this kind of situations, since it's with one of his employees. This kind of behavior shouldn't be tolerated especially coming from a Tournament Official.
For the part where you interrupted the game, I'd advise to ask the players to pause their game while you call for the Judge/TO/Whoever is trusted with rulings.
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To the Best of my Knowledge, this guy seems like a second in Command/Co-owner of the store. Maybe an "assistant Manager" would be a good way. He was running the store after he quit the preRelease, and I believe he told a few people, including the owner about how he tore up his deck.
Also, he was sitting there when I pointed it out, I'm not sure if he's a judge, but he was kinda the TO, I believe, since he was supervising the players as they finished their match.
He was mad and he took out his anger on his cards rather than people. It always hurts to see cards go down this way, especially if there are new players around who would be thrilled to get free cards, but if he's not being a jerk to people, hey, they are his cards after all.
If those cards belong to the store and not to him, and the store owner knows about it, he probably knows better than to tear something truly valuable up. Probably.
The exact thing you should have done with the ruling thing is tell one of the store's officials and let them handle it. But at regular REL pointing it out isn't really frowned upon too badly.
With the employee you played against, I don't see anything really wrong. He might want to have a little bit of anger management or something but he wasn't screaming or hitting people or throwing stuff. It was his property and if he wanted to destroy it that's his prerogative. I hope he threw the cards away afterwards.
Anyway, his cards, his problem. As long as he isn't directing his anger at me or trying to intimidate me, no problem. Sure, I could probably call a judge, but then if he's ripping his cards he's unlikely to continue playing anyway.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Yeah, if a guy wants to tear up his cards, he has every right to do it. Is it weird? Sure. Should he get in trouble for it/should it be against the rules? Absolutely not.
In the second situation, you shouldn't directly interfere with other player's games. You should call a judge and tell the judge what is happening, and the judge will deal with it. I think you are allowed to tell the two people playing that you are calling a judge and ask them to pause for a second (but don't quote me on that - as suggested above, ask in the rules forum to be sure), but don't tell them what you think they did wrong, just that you're calling a judge.
Anyway, his cards, his problem. As long as he isn't directing his anger at me or trying to intimidate me, no problem. Sure, I could probably call a judge, but then if he's ripping his cards he's unlikely to continue playing anyway.
No, lol it isn't. This really happened. Is that guy still around?
Are you saying you would call a Judge for the guy tearing up his cards? Idk if that would have been the best response. Since this guy practically runs the LGS (not the owner, but runs most game days when the Owner is not working, and works almost every night) As far as I could tell, this guy was/is an acting TO when he's not playing. I mostly just felt a slight bit of regret and shock that he would tear up rares and mythics that he could sell or trade and still have some value (despite being minimal). I think "vindictive" was the best word to describe it. I wasn't sure if asking for the cards/interrupting him would cause him to lose it, so I just watched as he "vented".
Also, he was the same person who I asked about the Goblin Kaboomist upkeep during the other game, since he was sitting right there monitoring the game. I guess it's not the same as a judge, but since it came and went during an upkeep, I decided to bring it up as the active player was finishing his upkeep.
It is a very odd situation. However, they are his cards and he can do whatever he wants to with them. Like the Mox example from above, you'd be surprised what people have done to cards of even way more value than the cards that he ripped up. I've played since 1994 and I've seen a lot of stuff and heard a lot of stories. If it's worth a few bucks and looking like a douche to "prove his point," then it is. Most people won't think highly of him for it. They'll just think that he's not that bright.
In the 2nd situation, I believe that you did the right thing (although the best thing is to ask them to pause the game while you get a Judge). He was probably upset that he didn't notice it or wanted to pretend not to notice it.
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Are you saying you would call a Judge for the guy tearing up his cards?
I said _could_, but I generally won't.
I mean, you said that one of previous opponents said "please don't hurt me". This means he was intimidated.
If I got the vibe that he's trying to intimidating me, yeah, I'll call a judge over that. And if he's the TO/judge, then I won't be playing there again.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I have to say I've been guilty of this. Maybe not ripping up an entire deck,but specifically the cards I hated about a draft deck. I made clear to my opponent I wasn't angry at them, even so far as to ripping them up in a comical manner, and I've never ripped up anything that wasn't a bulk rare, so I wouldn't take it too personally. If the guy didn't act out towards you, it's just a way some people deal with a frustrating loss or evening. If he's a TO/Coowner, my guess is that ripping up about $5 worth of bulk rares was probably more satisfying at that moment then any other way of expressing it. Now, if he'd dangled a Nissa or something in front of a hungry player's face and shredded it that would be kind of dickish, but we're talking about what is probably going to stay near-bulk rares here. Yeah, Ob and Spirit Bonds are good,but they're not $$$ mythics and how good they are is still up for debate. I doubt either of these see play on the level of Pack Rat and Pack Rat has never been worth more than a few bucks. The attitude in which he does this is far more important than than what he's actually doing, they're his cards, he can do what he wants with them. The fact that he conversed with you after the fact and you didn't feel intimidated or anything by his actions means that he probably didn't mean any harm by it. Nowadays, I just drop and add them to my bulk rare box to cash in at events later when it gets full BTW.
As far as your second situation goes, I'm no judge but I'm pretty sure that if game rules are being violated, an observer is supposed to notify a judge. I've seen things like this at a lot of midnight releases- exhausted players, brand new cards, and sometimes brand new mechanics. Most of the time, players are happy to have an error pointed out to them at my store, with "oops, my bad, you're right, I CAN'T do that." I've never seen someone get pissed about it, we're talking about a prerelease or an FNM, not finals at a GP or something. Dude was probably just cranky from playing all night and maybe feeling a little pressure if there was a decent prize pool on the line. Even if I wasn't obligated to, I might still apologize to the dude after the match and let him know you weren't out to screw with his game or anything, and in the future, consider how you approach situations like this when you approach them. I usually ask in the form of a question like "I'm sorry to interrupt, but does Kaboomist's coinflip trigger during upkeep or during activation? That card is kinda templated weird and I think it actually triggers during......" It gets both players to thinking about it and usually they'll call the judge themselves.
Also, your opponent does have the right to have other players removed from the play area at the judge's discretion if he'd like some breathing space. If I've gone to turns, which doesn't happen very often, and the room is watching me play, even if there's not prize on the line, it can sometimes be akin to having 6 people reading over your shoulder at once, silently judging every play. If you've already had a bad night, this can be a little on the antagonizing side and I get that.
I'm a regular at our LGS, and one of the better players and I have bad nights, get frustrated, or make sloppy plays sometimes, all of us do. I try to make it a point if I feel like someone might have construed my actions offensivly or taken them personally- to me it sounds like your LGS guy might benefit from adopting this advice. It's not what you do, but HOW you do it that constitutes bad sportsmanship. I mean, unless it's like, punching your opponent in the face for Generator Servant into Seige Dragon.
TL:DR Don't worry too much about it. Everyone has a bad night.
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He probably wasn't going against the letter of the rules, but I feel compelled to mention that there is precedent for penalizing this sort of behavior in other games. In competitive Tennis, for example, I've witnessed a player be penalized a point for breaking his racquet in frustration, due to how it unnerved his opponent. He was also warned that, if he did it again, the penalties would escalate.
Violence of any degree can be unnerving, and is poor sportsmanship in this situation. If the guy wanted to ritually destroy a deck for letting him down, he could have done it at home.
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I would probably laugh really hard. Especially if he wasn't like super raging. I had a guy lose in a similar fashion, then slap his deck and half of it flew across the room. I simply got up and walked away.
I would definitely talk to the store owner about it. He may have the right to do it, but he should respect the game that he's sponsoring as an employee. If you're going to disrespect cards and the game like that, representing a card store isn't the job for you.
I've definitely won rounds because my opponent got mana screwed or flooded. I this case I think the best thing is always empathy. I know what it feels like to get screwed. When my opponent gets screwed, I usually say something like "aw man I hate it when that happens, that sucks!" Saying something empathetic almost always helps your opponent relax a bit and look at the situation objectively. If they still rage then it's a personal problem that they have, and not you.
Btw, instead of saying "scoop", I'm just going to say "rip" now (possibly while pretending to rip up all my cards). That is my new favorite saying.
My first round, I got matched up against one of the employees/co-owner of the Store, and a pretty well-known character that most people seem to get along with. I haven't known him for that long, but he seems like a pretty cool guy. Unfortunately, he had terrible luck and got mana-screwed the first game, then mulliganed and got mana-flooded the second game. He literally cast 3 creatures the first game and maybe 1 or 2 spells/creatures the second.
Honestly, these are the types of games I hate to win, because it doesn't feel much like Victory if you're opponent can't play anything.
After he lost, I mumbled something to the effect of "Sorry about your luck, wish I could say Good Game, but it kinda wasn't"
Then, without much hesitation, he started unsleeving his cards and ripping them in half. Not in a violent way, just a silent, resentful "I hate this Deck" kinda way.
I noticed he set aside Soul of Innistrad and pointed out that he probably wouldn't want to tear that one, to which he responded by promptly ripping it in half. Nothing in his deck was worth more than a few bucks, but I still felt it was kinda wasteful to tear up decent rares like Spirit Bonds, Preeminent Captain, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, and PhytoTitan. I almost wanted to stop him or ask if I could have his rares since he obviously didn't want them, but I just let him do his thing. Afterwards, I mentioned I probably would have purchased them, had I known he was going to do that. He jokingly referred to another time during the Nyx pre-release when he did the same thing and his opponent cautiously grabbed Ajani, Mentor of Heroes from his pile and said "Please don't hit me".
Anyways, I wasn't quite sure how to react. I almost regret not trying to obtain his rares since he apparently didn't care, and I hate seeing things of value go to waste. It also baffles me why he didn't just sell the cards in the Store's Showcase (particularly for higher value cards like Ajani)
Also, later in the night, 2 playesr had gone to turns and a lot people had gathered around to watch. I noticed that one player who had "Goblin Kaboomist" on the field wasn't flipping a coin every time he laid a mine during his upkeep. I pointed out that I believed you need to flip a coin during each upkeep. There was some debate about whether the coin should be flipped when the mines were activated, or during upkeep. The LGS employee read the card and determined the coin should be flipped during the upkeep. There was a little more discussion, but LGS guy started to become irritated and told everyone to vacate the area and let the 2 players finish their game.
I'm not sure if I should or Should not have pointed out the mistake. I'm guessing our LGS guy was just having a bad night.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=409478
For the part where you interrupted the game, I'd advise to ask the players to pause their game while you call for the Judge/TO/Whoever is trusted with rulings.
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Also, he was sitting there when I pointed it out, I'm not sure if he's a judge, but he was kinda the TO, I believe, since he was supervising the players as they finished their match.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=409478
As for the card-ripping, whoa! That's some vindictiveness. I'd just make sure he wasn't, like, gonna rage out or whatever...
When in doubt, call a judge.
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If those cards belong to the store and not to him, and the store owner knows about it, he probably knows better than to tear something truly valuable up. Probably.
With the employee you played against, I don't see anything really wrong. He might want to have a little bit of anger management or something but he wasn't screaming or hitting people or throwing stuff. It was his property and if he wanted to destroy it that's his prerogative. I hope he threw the cards away afterwards.
Anyway, his cards, his problem. As long as he isn't directing his anger at me or trying to intimidate me, no problem. Sure, I could probably call a judge, but then if he's ripping his cards he's unlikely to continue playing anyway.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
In the second situation, you shouldn't directly interfere with other player's games. You should call a judge and tell the judge what is happening, and the judge will deal with it. I think you are allowed to tell the two people playing that you are calling a judge and ask them to pause for a second (but don't quote me on that - as suggested above, ask in the rules forum to be sure), but don't tell them what you think they did wrong, just that you're calling a judge.
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No, lol it isn't. This really happened. Is that guy still around?
Are you saying you would call a Judge for the guy tearing up his cards? Idk if that would have been the best response. Since this guy practically runs the LGS (not the owner, but runs most game days when the Owner is not working, and works almost every night) As far as I could tell, this guy was/is an acting TO when he's not playing. I mostly just felt a slight bit of regret and shock that he would tear up rares and mythics that he could sell or trade and still have some value (despite being minimal). I think "vindictive" was the best word to describe it. I wasn't sure if asking for the cards/interrupting him would cause him to lose it, so I just watched as he "vented".
Also, he was the same person who I asked about the Goblin Kaboomist upkeep during the other game, since he was sitting right there monitoring the game. I guess it's not the same as a judge, but since it came and went during an upkeep, I decided to bring it up as the active player was finishing his upkeep.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=409478
In the 2nd situation, I believe that you did the right thing (although the best thing is to ask them to pause the game while you get a Judge). He was probably upset that he didn't notice it or wanted to pretend not to notice it.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I said _could_, but I generally won't.
I mean, you said that one of previous opponents said "please don't hurt me". This means he was intimidated.
If I got the vibe that he's trying to intimidating me, yeah, I'll call a judge over that. And if he's the TO/judge, then I won't be playing there again.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
As far as your second situation goes, I'm no judge but I'm pretty sure that if game rules are being violated, an observer is supposed to notify a judge. I've seen things like this at a lot of midnight releases- exhausted players, brand new cards, and sometimes brand new mechanics. Most of the time, players are happy to have an error pointed out to them at my store, with "oops, my bad, you're right, I CAN'T do that." I've never seen someone get pissed about it, we're talking about a prerelease or an FNM, not finals at a GP or something. Dude was probably just cranky from playing all night and maybe feeling a little pressure if there was a decent prize pool on the line. Even if I wasn't obligated to, I might still apologize to the dude after the match and let him know you weren't out to screw with his game or anything, and in the future, consider how you approach situations like this when you approach them. I usually ask in the form of a question like "I'm sorry to interrupt, but does Kaboomist's coinflip trigger during upkeep or during activation? That card is kinda templated weird and I think it actually triggers during......" It gets both players to thinking about it and usually they'll call the judge themselves.
Also, your opponent does have the right to have other players removed from the play area at the judge's discretion if he'd like some breathing space. If I've gone to turns, which doesn't happen very often, and the room is watching me play, even if there's not prize on the line, it can sometimes be akin to having 6 people reading over your shoulder at once, silently judging every play. If you've already had a bad night, this can be a little on the antagonizing side and I get that.
I'm a regular at our LGS, and one of the better players and I have bad nights, get frustrated, or make sloppy plays sometimes, all of us do. I try to make it a point if I feel like someone might have construed my actions offensivly or taken them personally- to me it sounds like your LGS guy might benefit from adopting this advice. It's not what you do, but HOW you do it that constitutes bad sportsmanship. I mean, unless it's like, punching your opponent in the face for Generator Servant into Seige Dragon.
TL:DR Don't worry too much about it. Everyone has a bad night.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Violence of any degree can be unnerving, and is poor sportsmanship in this situation. If the guy wanted to ritually destroy a deck for letting him down, he could have done it at home.
Btw, instead of saying "scoop", I'm just going to say "rip" now (possibly while pretending to rip up all my cards). That is my new favorite saying.