My lgs has a problem with IDs. A sanctioned event has to allow them but I've seen posts here and other forums that tournament structures can be used to discourage them. For instance play Swiss only or pay out based on record. I don't get how this takes the advantage if an ID away.
For example, I ID'd with the other undefeated player. We ended up 1st and 2nd for top 4 then chose to split. If we went by Swiss only we still would have finished at 1 and 2 with 7 points each. If we went by record we still would have been 2-0-1 for the 1 and 2 spot.
The price packs are distributed according to "WINS" , so for 3 points, you get kinda 1 booster.
If you draw the final, you get nothing extra, both of you actually just forfeited a booster as nobody wins, its like both lose.
Sure you get 1 point for the draw, but it wont give you anything, you are maybe 1st and 2nd, but you have the same points as the 3rd, 4th etc. , so you get all the same prices.
Losing doesnt cost you anything, its simply that you must win.
Advantage of that, nobody has any reason to play for Time out, a draw gives you NOTHING, so people play faster, people dont ID and overall its a much better atmosphere, especially in a PreRelease that should not be about winning boosters anyway (as we use them for a draft later on for the same day).
If a FNM structure has a small standard tournament its also pretty annoying if the players just play 2 rounds and then ID the finals.
If you do that, you can also just aim for Single Elimination, as a single lose allready means you get no prices, means the 8 men is totally pointless in Swiss if top 2 get prices only anyway.
In that regards as a TO you can at least in that level simply discourage IDs and let the players play the games.
Somebody will argue "Well, they can just play stupid and time out anyway" ; SURE, but if someone is such a big crampy to pull that off, they will get the proper respons from the local community (as its obvisious bull*****) ; and face it, play it out like men, a draw is for YuGiOh players.
// On higher levels with an actual Top8 and proper prices that are worth "fighting for" , the ID is well known and its a legit and accepted way to go. Nobody "really" blames anyone, they actual blame you if you DONT ID, dreamcrushers are a evil breed
Yeah. Pay out prizes in such a way that it hurts to ID. If 3-0 gets 4 packs and 2-1 gets one pack you can make 2-0-1 get two packs. Then they should play because they get an extra pack between them.
Why does anyone care about ID'ing? If no one's being scummy and tricking someone else, and both players benefit from ID's, let them both do it. It doesn't hurt the store or other players in any way.
// On higher levels with an actual Top8 and proper prices that are worth "fighting for" , the ID is well known and its a legit and accepted way to go. Nobody "really" blames anyone, they actual blame you if you DONT ID, dreamcrushers are a evil breed
I thought dream crushing was when people with no chance to make top 8 didn't scoop to someone who was win-and-in (although I hate that term and think you should have to actually win to get your win-and-in, but that's neither here nor there), not people who actively hurt their own lockf or the top 8 by refusing to ID when it's in their best interest. I thought we just called those people "stupid."
Great ideas for small tournaments, but once the prizes scale significantly up in larger tournaments, then its near impossible to remove IDs from the system
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I agree with this. It's just the smart thing to do. It's like two armies knowing it's best not to fight. It's actually very progressive thinking realizing that if you don't try to win no one loses and both gain. There for I like it very much. But since it does cause an issue and I won't give up my right to ID, the best thing for the social atmosphere is to disincentivize IDing.
If you don't want to ID, don't. No one will stop you. I regularly decline the ID and force my opponent to play it out just because I enjoy playing magic.
I totally agree. It's legitimate, makes total sense, and is pretty cool bc of how progressive it is. The problem comes from other people not liking that the top 2 can do it and remain top 2. They shouldn't have a right to have a problem with it, but it's enough of a problem for the small store I go that it's better to just not have an incentive for doing it.
People seem to take issue with being X-1 and being locked out of second when the X-0s ID (or similar such situations, depending on event size and the like), is what I imagine to be it. It's like how people would rage at the thought of someone opening the rare and valuable Goyf + foil Goyf pack in Modern Masters draft and dropping with it—they hate the thought of being the one next to that person and not having that person be forced to pass value to them. It all seems to stem from a sense of entitlement not to get "cheated" out of something they could possibly have had.
People seem to take issue with being X-1 and being locked out of second when the X-0s ID (or similar such situations, depending on event size and the like), is what I imagine to be it. It's like how people would rage at the thought of someone opening the rare and valuable Goyf + foil Goyf pack in Modern Masters draft and dropping with it—they hate the thought of being the one next to that person and not having that person be forced to pass value to them. It all seems to stem from a sense of entitlement not to get "cheated" out of something they could possibly have had.
Do these people fail to realize that the guy who played the eventual champion would almost certainly have better breakers than them? Like 95% of the time? People are so irrational.
I've seen the X-0s play it out and the loser drops to like third place. It might not be guaranteed, but it can certainly happen.
It can definitely happen. At an FNM once, I was the only 5-0 going into the final round. My opponent obviously wanted to play it out so all the 5-1s wouldn't pass him at 4-1-1. He beat me and I fell to 3rd. I was actually pretty confused because I figured I'd get 1st still or at least 2nd.
Also speaking as someone who has played in a LOT of tournaments before and finished 17th and 9th place more times than I'd like to admit, IDs are a necessary "evil." (and I don't really think they are evil)
If you win all of your matches, you don't have to worry about tiebreakers. If you don't, then you will always rely somewhat on how well your opponents have done.
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I've seen the X-0s play it out and the loser drops to like third place. It might not be guaranteed, but it can certainly happen.
Oh, I agree it can certainly happen, but the most common by far result is that the 2nd X-0 will just be second. My point wasn't to say that it was impossible, just that for all the energy people waste hating on ID's it's like a tiny percentage chance that in any given tournament it will fundamentally alter their results.
I made the Goyf + foil Goyf pack comparison for basically that reason: They're getting riled up over such a narrow thing that it doesn't make sense to get angry over it.
I made the Goyf + foil Goyf pack comparison for basically that reason: They're getting riled up over such a narrow thing that it doesn't make sense to get angry over it.
Yeah I never saw someone open the god pack of goyf foil goyf or bob foil bob etc. Closest we saw was goyf + some fairly high value foil rare (ravager maybe? Can't remember)
I've seen the X-0s play it out and the loser drops to like third place. It might not be guaranteed, but it can certainly happen.
I've seen a the only 4-0 drop to 6th and out of prizes when he lost the last round. At FNM tonight, the finals got played out and the loser dropped to 5th. Swiss without a cut to top 8 isn't a conductive way to pay out prizes in a non-competitive room. There have been cases at my semi-competitve FNM where the pairing simply kept the established grinders in one side and the casual budget players in the other til the finals. I've seen countless weird X-1 situations. If you truely want to rid your FNM of the ID, paying out based on wins only is the only way. Yet you can still have players conceed for a prize split which is the same as the draw. They cannot be fully rid of and its unfortunate that at any level of MTG, sometimes that 1 loss is just gonna mean your outta luck to win.
I totally agree. It's legitimate, makes total sense, and is pretty cool bc of how progressive it is. The problem comes from other people not liking that the top 2 can do it and remain top 2. They shouldn't have a right to have a problem with it, but it's enough of a problem for the small store I go that it's better to just not have an incentive for doing it.
To prevent the people in 1st/2nd from being able to draw, the solution is simple: Beat them in the earlier rounds.
The problem is that your success rate stems from the order in which you play your matches, instead of the decks/play themselves. For example, Portugal plays germany in game 1. Both teams are 0-0. Germany tries hella hard and destroys them 4-0. USA plays Germany round 3. Germany has first place locked up, so they "ID" and USA gets second place even though their results in the other games were identical.
I kinda see what OP is saying. On an LGS level in a 3 round tourney if you 2-0, then ID into top 8 (which is fine) means only 2 -3 rounds of magic gets played. For some people that actually like you know, playing the game, this is disappointing.
There was concern that the US-Germany would intentional draw because West Germany-Austria had done the same thing in 1982. They fixed the game results 1-0 and then kicked the ball around for eighty minutes. Because you can't force them to play, right? Algeria got screwed out of the next round by it and West Germany/Austria were shamed by the football playing community for fixing a game in order to advance. Too bad that Magic players don't have the same respect for sportsmanship and competitive play. The win is the only thing that matters to them. Can I win by not actually playing this game? Awesome! I myself thought that the Germany-US game to close the first round was an excellent game. I'm glad they actually played it out instead of just taking the guaranteed advancement that was on the table.
The problem is that your success rate stems from the order in which you play your matches, instead of the decks/play themselves.
I don't think that is a problem though. Someone whose rounds go Win-win-win-loss, should be getting better rewards than someone who goes loss-win-win-win. Since the first guy played against the better players all day (except maybe the first round), and the other guy just players who lost already.
I kinda see what OP is saying. On an LGS level in a 3 round tourney if you 2-0, then ID into top 8 (which is fine) means only 2 -3 rounds of magic gets played. For some people that actually like you know, playing the game, this is disappointing.
How is that disappointing for people that like playing the game? If that person goes 2-0, they don't have to ID. If they go 1-1 they can still play the last round and try to get 3rd/4th place.
I was 3-0 last night, and lost in the 4th round. This was for a box of Th/Nyx/Born. I had the second most points going into round 5 behind the 4-0 player. The LGS said if there isn't an X-0 then no box, and it's just regular prize support. So, if I played the 4-0, and beat him, I win, but no box for anyone. I gave him the game win and he gave me equal value for what the top player would've gotten.... but that dropped me to 6th place. My 3 wins were against 3 guys who went 4-1, and they walked away with 2-3 packs each, while I walked away with 8 packs.
When I go, I love to play as much as I can, but I still enjoy getting some prize support!
For example, I ID'd with the other undefeated player. We ended up 1st and 2nd for top 4 then chose to split. If we went by Swiss only we still would have finished at 1 and 2 with 7 points each. If we went by record we still would have been 2-0-1 for the 1 and 2 spot.
We do it in our PreRelease.
Works like this.
The price packs are distributed according to "WINS" , so for 3 points, you get kinda 1 booster.
If you draw the final, you get nothing extra, both of you actually just forfeited a booster as nobody wins, its like both lose.
Sure you get 1 point for the draw, but it wont give you anything, you are maybe 1st and 2nd, but you have the same points as the 3rd, 4th etc. , so you get all the same prices.
Losing doesnt cost you anything, its simply that you must win.
Advantage of that, nobody has any reason to play for Time out, a draw gives you NOTHING, so people play faster, people dont ID and overall its a much better atmosphere, especially in a PreRelease that should not be about winning boosters anyway (as we use them for a draft later on for the same day).
If a FNM structure has a small standard tournament its also pretty annoying if the players just play 2 rounds and then ID the finals.
If you do that, you can also just aim for Single Elimination, as a single lose allready means you get no prices, means the 8 men is totally pointless in Swiss if top 2 get prices only anyway.
In that regards as a TO you can at least in that level simply discourage IDs and let the players play the games.
Somebody will argue "Well, they can just play stupid and time out anyway" ; SURE, but if someone is such a big crampy to pull that off, they will get the proper respons from the local community (as its obvisious bull*****) ; and face it, play it out like men, a draw is for YuGiOh players.
// On higher levels with an actual Top8 and proper prices that are worth "fighting for" , the ID is well known and its a legit and accepted way to go. Nobody "really" blames anyone, they actual blame you if you DONT ID, dreamcrushers are a evil breed
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I thought dream crushing was when people with no chance to make top 8 didn't scoop to someone who was win-and-in (although I hate that term and think you should have to actually win to get your win-and-in, but that's neither here nor there), not people who actively hurt their own lockf or the top 8 by refusing to ID when it's in their best interest. I thought we just called those people "stupid."
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If you don't want to ID, don't. No one will stop you. I regularly decline the ID and force my opponent to play it out just because I enjoy playing magic.
People seem to take issue with being X-1 and being locked out of second when the X-0s ID (or similar such situations, depending on event size and the like), is what I imagine to be it. It's like how people would rage at the thought of someone opening the rare and valuable Goyf + foil Goyf pack in Modern Masters draft and dropping with it—they hate the thought of being the one next to that person and not having that person be forced to pass value to them. It all seems to stem from a sense of entitlement not to get "cheated" out of something they could possibly have had.
Do these people fail to realize that the guy who played the eventual champion would almost certainly have better breakers than them? Like 95% of the time? People are so irrational.
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It can definitely happen. At an FNM once, I was the only 5-0 going into the final round. My opponent obviously wanted to play it out so all the 5-1s wouldn't pass him at 4-1-1. He beat me and I fell to 3rd. I was actually pretty confused because I figured I'd get 1st still or at least 2nd.
Also speaking as someone who has played in a LOT of tournaments before and finished 17th and 9th place more times than I'd like to admit, IDs are a necessary "evil." (and I don't really think they are evil)
If you win all of your matches, you don't have to worry about tiebreakers. If you don't, then you will always rely somewhat on how well your opponents have done.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Oh, I agree it can certainly happen, but the most common by far result is that the 2nd X-0 will just be second. My point wasn't to say that it was impossible, just that for all the energy people waste hating on ID's it's like a tiny percentage chance that in any given tournament it will fundamentally alter their results.
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Yeah I never saw someone open the god pack of goyf foil goyf or bob foil bob etc. Closest we saw was goyf + some fairly high value foil rare (ravager maybe? Can't remember)
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I've seen a the only 4-0 drop to 6th and out of prizes when he lost the last round. At FNM tonight, the finals got played out and the loser dropped to 5th. Swiss without a cut to top 8 isn't a conductive way to pay out prizes in a non-competitive room. There have been cases at my semi-competitve FNM where the pairing simply kept the established grinders in one side and the casual budget players in the other til the finals. I've seen countless weird X-1 situations. If you truely want to rid your FNM of the ID, paying out based on wins only is the only way. Yet you can still have players conceed for a prize split which is the same as the draw. They cannot be fully rid of and its unfortunate that at any level of MTG, sometimes that 1 loss is just gonna mean your outta luck to win.
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To prevent the people in 1st/2nd from being able to draw, the solution is simple: Beat them in the earlier rounds.
I don't think that is a problem though. Someone whose rounds go Win-win-win-loss, should be getting better rewards than someone who goes loss-win-win-win. Since the first guy played against the better players all day (except maybe the first round), and the other guy just players who lost already.
How is that disappointing for people that like playing the game? If that person goes 2-0, they don't have to ID. If they go 1-1 they can still play the last round and try to get 3rd/4th place.
When I go, I love to play as much as I can, but I still enjoy getting some prize support!
Thats against wizards rules.
You cant buy boosters and play with them.
But you can do whatever you want with your prices, open them or draft with them.
If you start a draft, everyone has to have the same product, thats all about it.
For an FNM you can also use other boosters, as long as everyone has the same product.
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