The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Interesting perspective of Legacy vs Modern. I would argue that combo is much more of a presence in Modern than it is in Legacy. In fact according to mtgtop8, combo is 29% of the Legacy meta and 39% of the Modern meta. Not that it's bad in either case, I think both formats are in a good spot right now.
I should have specified that the level of "fast" combo is the part I don't like about Legacy right now. By "fast," I mean decks that can win with some frequency on turn 2 or before. Those would include Sneak and Show, Reanimater, Belcher, Oops! All spells, and various storm decks.
In Modern, WotC have done a good job of preventing combo decks from winning before turn 4. Turn 3 wins happen sometimes, but not (seemingly) as frequently as turn 2 (or even 1) in Legacy. And as you've noted, they clearly haven't removed combo altogether.
Overall, I don't particularly dislike combo, but when it gets too fast, it is incredibly unhealthy for the game. At least in my opinion.
But seriously, nothing positive will be had of this discussion.
And the correct answer is Legacy, unless I could afford Vintage. Then I would likely tell you that the best format is Vintage, as the times when I've had the opportunity to play have been the most skill-intensive, challenging games of Magic I've ever played.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Interesting perspective of Legacy vs Modern. I would argue that combo is much more of a presence in Modern than it is in Legacy. In fact according to mtgtop8, combo is 29% of the Legacy meta and 39% of the Modern meta. Not that it's bad in either case, I think both formats are in a good spot right now.
I should have specified that the level of "fast" combo is the part I don't like about Legacy right now. By "fast," I mean decks that can win with some frequency on turn 2 or before. Those would include Sneak and Show, Reanimater, Belcher, Oops! All spells, and various storm decks.
In Modern, WotC have done a good job of preventing combo decks from winning before turn 4. Turn 3 wins happen sometimes, but not (seemingly) as frequently as turn 2 (or even 1) in Legacy. And as you've noted, they clearly haven't removed combo altogether.
Overall, I don't particularly dislike combo, but when it gets too fast, it is incredibly unhealthy for the game. At least in my opinion.
You should try playing one of those turn 2 win decks yourself, and see how difficult it actually is to win on turn 2.
Even the least controlly of decks like belcher and elves are going to have things that might stop you.
Fast combo forces you to actually play the game from turn 1, but it's nowhere near as degenerate as you seem to think that it is. If it were, combo decks would have a better showing than tempo decks at events.
Interesting perspective of Legacy vs Modern. I would argue that combo is much more of a presence in Modern than it is in Legacy. In fact according to mtgtop8, combo is 29% of the Legacy meta and 39% of the Modern meta. Not that it's bad in either case, I think both formats are in a good spot right now.
I should have specified that the level of "fast" combo is the part I don't like about Legacy right now. By "fast," I mean decks that can win with some frequency on turn 2 or before. Those would include Sneak and Show, Reanimater, Belcher, Oops! All spells, and various storm decks.
In Modern, WotC have done a good job of preventing combo decks from winning before turn 4. Turn 3 wins happen sometimes, but not (seemingly) as frequently as turn 2 (or even 1) in Legacy. And as you've noted, they clearly haven't removed combo altogether.
Overall, I don't particularly dislike combo, but when it gets too fast, it is incredibly unhealthy for the game. At least in my opinion.
You should try playing one of those turn 2 win decks yourself, and see how difficult it actually is to win on turn 2.
Even the least controlly of decks like belcher and elves are going to have things that might stop you.
Fast combo forces you to actually play the game from turn 1, but it's nowhere near as degenerate as you seem to think that it is. If it were, combo decks would have a better showing than tempo decks at events.
Key phrasing there is decks that "can" win by turn 2. A good portion of us find that annoying, whether or not it's skill intensive or preventable. At least for me, that possibility is a lot less desirable than playing in a format without it. The fact is decks like sneak and show exist in whatever numbers and win with whatever frequency means it's not the format for me.
The one YOU like the much! That's right, the person reading this comment, YOUR favourite format is objectively confirmed by scientists to be the best!
i whole heartedly approve of this message and also like to add that i prefer Commander because, as stated by the Royal Academy of Magic, "It gives (me) freedom of deck construction as well as the most fun for the money."
You should try playing one of those turn 2 win decks yourself, and see how difficult it actually is to win on turn 2.
Even the least controlly of decks like belcher and elves are going to have things that might stop you.
Fast combo forces you to actually play the game from turn 1, but it's nowhere near as degenerate as you seem to think that it is. If it were, combo decks would have a better showing than tempo decks at events.
I have built and played both Belcher and TES. Winning on turn 2 or before does not happen all the time, but it does happen too frequently for my taste.
As for your last point, I think fast combo is degenerate because it provides a poor play experience for many people. It doesn't have to win tournaments to be degenerate. Simply existing in too high numbers is enough to damage a format.
I think that it counts RG Tron as an aggro deck, which makes no logical sense.
As I visit that site daily: No, no it doesn't. It lists it as control. It takes all of 10 seconds to check.
However, it does list UW, Mono U and RG together in one category. I find that pretty stupid, to be honest. None of those decks play anywhere close to each other. UW is more combo focused, U control and RG on assembling the lands, but they're all in the same category.
RG Tron isn't a Control deck either. It doesn't go for the late-game, it plays 8 wraths and 4 removal spells, and everything else is just ramp, manafixing, and threats. That is not Control.
While this might be true, MTGTop8 is a horrible way of determining archetypes in Modern as it doesn't count Ramp, Midrange, and Tempo as separate from Aggro, Control, and Combo. I think that it counts RG Tron as an aggro deck, which makes no logical sense.
A fair point, but I don't think your argument contradicts the point I was making. Combo is combo, and each of the decks listed under that heading are there appropriately. The blurred lines you're referring to are between control and aggro.
That would be true if Melira Pod wasn't almost completely a midrange deck that rarely wins with the combo and Splinter Twin has moved almost completely to being a Midrange deck with the combo added in. They don't really count as combo.
Well, I suppose I was wrong when I implied that blurred lines didn't exist between combo and other archetypes. I would still call those decks combo though, if only because the constant threat of instant death is the very thing that allows them to successfully out tempo other decks and win via the aggro plan in many cases.
Maybe for Twin, but Melira Pod does not have a constant threat of instant death. They play a 3 card combo and it takes several turns to assemble it. It is certainly not instant.
I didn't mean 'at instant speed' (although that is possible with Chord). I probably should have chosen my words more wisely. Once Pod has 1 or 2 pieces of the combo in play, it's very risky to tap out against them, as they can drop the rest of the combo and suddenly you're dead. You need to leave mana up for counters/removal, just in case. Hence my comment about being able to out-tempo your opponent as a Pod player just by threatening the combo.
You should try playing one of those turn 2 win decks yourself, and see how difficult it actually is to win on turn 2.
Even the least controlly of decks like belcher and elves are going to have things that might stop you.
Fast combo forces you to actually play the game from turn 1, but it's nowhere near as degenerate as you seem to think that it is. If it were, combo decks would have a better showing than tempo decks at events.
I have built and played both Belcher and TES. Winning on turn 2 or before does not happen all the time, but it does happen too frequently for my taste.
As for your last point, I think fast combo is degenerate because it provides a poor play experience for many people. It doesn't have to win tournaments to be degenerate. Simply existing in too high numbers is enough to damage a format.
Totally defensible position. But one person's 'poor play experience' is another's idea of a great time. It's all subjective and I'm glad that different formats exist to cater to different players' preferences. It doesn't make one format better than another, just suited for different tastes.
Best format(s) are formats I can play Smokestack. Best format is whatever your best format is. Everything else is ad hominems and strawmen until the thread gets locked as others have pointed out.
P.S. - I like broken, resource denial, all bets are off, I can die at any time, your combo could kill me before I finishing typin
Disclaimer: As per the norm, I am aware some people will disagree with my opinion and I acknowledge there is a possibility that my opinion is wrong. The above post is simply my musings on what I view to be the most likely scenario given the information that is available and I am aware of at the time of typing! Peace.
from the competitive formats, for me, easily Legacy.
powerful decks, very skill intensive, lots of complexity in the metagame, plenty of competitive decks....
in my kitchen table we always play multiplayer team games in a format quite similar to 2HG and I'm very sad that this kind of game isn't more popular or really supported for tournaments.
Multiplayer team games tend to make for longer games with crazy comebacks, bigger stuff happening and still very intrincated and competitive.
it's REALLY REALLY complex and fun.
specially because it opens space for REALLY crazy decks that are incredibly effective when you have a powerful control deck as your ally to protect your crazyness and stuff.
This thread will lead no where good, but so far it is pretty civil.
Legacy and (a close second) vintage are the best formats.
There is basically only a few reasons people don't play either of those formats:
1. Availability (cost and tournaments)
2. They have no experience with the format and they are scared of them based on misconceptions (there's no diversity, its all turn 1 combos, etc)
3. They don't play competitively and like a different format for their casual play
4. They want a format that changes/rotates more (standard/limited)
Reason 1 has nothing to do with the actual quality of the format. Reason 2 is entirely based on misinformation and therefore invalid. Reason 3 and 4 is totally legit and understandably.
Sometimes standard is good, but that varies. Control and tempo are usually absent, and combo has disappeared entirely. Its usually dominated by 2-4 decks and runs out of room for innovation fast.
If you want a non-rotating format but you follow the logic behind reasons 1-3 modern might be where you end up.
EDH and pauper are can be a lot of fun, but a competitive level they get pretty dry.
You should try playing one of those turn 2 win decks yourself, and see how difficult it actually is to win on turn 2.
Even the least controlly of decks like belcher and elves are going to have things that might stop you.
Fast combo forces you to actually play the game from turn 1, but it's nowhere near as degenerate as you seem to think that it is. If it were, combo decks would have a better showing than tempo decks at events.
I have built and played both Belcher and TES. Winning on turn 2 or before does not happen all the time, but it does happen too frequently for my taste.
As for your last point, I think fast combo is degenerate because it provides a poor play experience for many people. It doesn't have to win tournaments to be degenerate. Simply existing in too high numbers is enough to damage a format.
poor play experience? for whom? For people who play decks that can't stop combo?
If money was no object and everyone had access, i reckon legacy would objectively be the best, and most fun.
However, "access to format" is a big part of "best format" so it is going to have to be modern that most people will agree on which strikes the best balance of accessibility and awesome fun.
Also, drafting, because drafting.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Best casual formats: Commander/EDH. Can be played on any budget and at any level of viciousness. Arguably the most social of all formats. Commander is meant to played with people, not against them.
Best competitive formats: Standard, Modern, and Legacy.
Vintage is simply too expensive for most people and limited and block are both highly variable. You can have a great block/limited format or a horrible one depending on the included sets.
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"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
The money issue with legacy is not as problematic as one would think...
you invest about 3000 dollars in a couple playsets of important stuff (mainly lands and some other stuff) and then you never spend a lot again...
once you have some ABU duals, fetches, FoW and some other staples, you're just a few bucks away from a multitude of competitive decks.
your cards WON'T devaluate over time, instead a lot of the staples get progressively more expensive as the time goes, so if you want to stop playing legacy you'll realistically get almost all of your money back, and maybe even end up with a net gain.
If you compete in standard, you'll spend a lot less for each rotation, but almost every card in your deck will devaluate by the end of the season, thus, you're losing money each year.
in the long run, if you play like 10 years or so in competitive tier 1 mode, you'll certainly spend a lot more money in standard than you would in legacy.
that said, imo, the card availability issue is a bigger issue than the price per se.
I mean, It's a lot easier to have 300 dollars to spend than to find those 4 Force of Will to spend that money into.
If the reserve list just vanished from existence, then probably legacy would spike in popularity as soon as WotC start reprinting the staples.
for me... Problems with card availability and initial investments aside, Legacy is by far the best format.
Lots of viable strategies, combos, aggro, control, tempo and midrange conviving and competing in harmony.
simply amazing format with high power level and very skill intensive.
Actually I'm starting to really enjoy limited (by which I mean draft. Sealed feels too much like a lottery, TBH)
I never used to really enjoy it, but there's actually a ton of skill involved. Sure, if you pull the right mythic you can still luck yourself into a win, but building good decks consistently actually requires a ton of skill.
I'm not that great of a drafter yet (I can't often tell what colors my neighbors are in) but I've definitely seen myself improve with each draft, and I'm having a ton of fun with it.
The only down side to drafting is having to buy into it, so honestly I'd say a well-designed cube is the absolute best format.
If you're talking constructed, I like legacy the best, though I do enjoy modern. It's hard to say about standard, it honestly depends on the year. But that's fine, because standard being "ever-changing" makes it pretty fun as well.
EDH is ok, but I don't really care for it. Decks in EDH are either too good or too bad and there doesn't seem to be much in between. Also, games can go on for well over an hour, and that is just too long.
Actually I'm starting to really enjoy limited (by which I mean draft. Sealed feels too much like a lottery, TBH)
I never used to really enjoy it, but there's actually a ton of skill involved. Sure, if you pull the right mythic you can still luck yourself into a win, but building good decks consistently actually requires a ton of skill.
I'm not that great of a drafter yet (I can't often tell what colors my neighbors are in) but I've definitely seen myself improve with each draft, and I'm having a ton of fun with it.
The only down side to drafting is having to buy into it, so honestly I'd say a well-designed cube is the absolute best format.
If you're talking constructed, I like legacy the best, though I do enjoy modern. It's hard to say about standard, it honestly depends on the year. But that's fine, because standard being "ever-changing" makes it pretty fun as well.
EDH is ok, but I don't really care for it. Decks in EDH are either too good or too bad and there doesn't seem to be much in between. Also, games can go on for well over an hour, and that is just too long.
yeah, draft is awesome
but it's an entirely different game and skill set.
either way, it's really cool to play even though decks tend to be a lot more sloppy and consistency tends not to be a thing.
My favorite formats are (proxy) Vintage, where everything is OP and degenerate, and (good) Limited formats, where nothing is OP and degenerate.
Legacy and Modern I'm less a fan of because I find fair vs. unfair matchups boring and uninteractive. Standard I might give a shot if it weren't for the financial black hole that is constant rotation. And I don't like EDH because it seems the format (especially multiplayer) biases too heavily toward control + oops I win combo, and tediously long games.
Lets see, best format? I'm gonna go with 2HG Standard (this is a sanctioned format.) 2v2 is a vary interesting way to play, that requires a more diverse set of skills than traditional magic, both 1v1 and ffa. I would go with other versions of 2HG, but unfortunately due to lack of regulation, 2HG is beyond broken in non-rotating formats.
Oh man I was about to say legacy then I forgot I do play 2HG Standard and love it.
I just hate the rotating nature of Standard to keep playing. A friend of mine would play Mono-U Devotion, I'd play R/W Devotion in MTGO and call ourselves Team 'Murika and achieve great results.
I enjoy Legacy the most, and would probably play commander more often if it were 1v1. I am not a huge fan of multiplayer anymore. I also enjoyed Drafting Conspiracy, though the actual playing a game part was miserable (and I even won #4VentSentinels). I wish I had gotten around to drafting Modern Masters. I'm sure that was a good time.
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I should have specified that the level of "fast" combo is the part I don't like about Legacy right now. By "fast," I mean decks that can win with some frequency on turn 2 or before. Those would include Sneak and Show, Reanimater, Belcher, Oops! All spells, and various storm decks.
In Modern, WotC have done a good job of preventing combo decks from winning before turn 4. Turn 3 wins happen sometimes, but not (seemingly) as frequently as turn 2 (or even 1) in Legacy. And as you've noted, they clearly haven't removed combo altogether.
Overall, I don't particularly dislike combo, but when it gets too fast, it is incredibly unhealthy for the game. At least in my opinion.
Thus endeth the thread.
But seriously, nothing positive will be had of this discussion.
And the correct answer is Legacy, unless I could afford Vintage. Then I would likely tell you that the best format is Vintage, as the times when I've had the opportunity to play have been the most skill-intensive, challenging games of Magic I've ever played.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
You should try playing one of those turn 2 win decks yourself, and see how difficult it actually is to win on turn 2.
Even the least controlly of decks like belcher and elves are going to have things that might stop you.
Fast combo forces you to actually play the game from turn 1, but it's nowhere near as degenerate as you seem to think that it is. If it were, combo decks would have a better showing than tempo decks at events.
Key phrasing there is decks that "can" win by turn 2. A good portion of us find that annoying, whether or not it's skill intensive or preventable. At least for me, that possibility is a lot less desirable than playing in a format without it. The fact is decks like sneak and show exist in whatever numbers and win with whatever frequency means it's not the format for me.
i whole heartedly approve of this message and also like to add that i prefer Commander because, as stated by the Royal Academy of Magic, "It gives (me) freedom of deck construction as well as the most fun for the money."
I have built and played both Belcher and TES. Winning on turn 2 or before does not happen all the time, but it does happen too frequently for my taste.
As for your last point, I think fast combo is degenerate because it provides a poor play experience for many people. It doesn't have to win tournaments to be degenerate. Simply existing in too high numbers is enough to damage a format.
I didn't mean 'at instant speed' (although that is possible with Chord). I probably should have chosen my words more wisely. Once Pod has 1 or 2 pieces of the combo in play, it's very risky to tap out against them, as they can drop the rest of the combo and suddenly you're dead. You need to leave mana up for counters/removal, just in case. Hence my comment about being able to out-tempo your opponent as a Pod player just by threatening the combo.
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
Totally defensible position. But one person's 'poor play experience' is another's idea of a great time. It's all subjective and I'm glad that different formats exist to cater to different players' preferences. It doesn't make one format better than another, just suited for different tastes.
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
This Simpsons clip provides a nice analogy for the decks in Vintage: http://vimeo.com/96581518
I too love the broken nature of the format, even though I play Landstill.
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
EDH Decks
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EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
P.S. - I like broken, resource denial, all bets are off, I can die at any time, your combo could kill me before I finishing typin
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
The One True Format Is PRANCY PANTS!
powerful decks, very skill intensive, lots of complexity in the metagame, plenty of competitive decks....
in my kitchen table we always play multiplayer team games in a format quite similar to 2HG and I'm very sad that this kind of game isn't more popular or really supported for tournaments.
Multiplayer team games tend to make for longer games with crazy comebacks, bigger stuff happening and still very intrincated and competitive.
it's REALLY REALLY complex and fun.
specially because it opens space for REALLY crazy decks that are incredibly effective when you have a powerful control deck as your ally to protect your crazyness and stuff.
Legacy and (a close second) vintage are the best formats.
There is basically only a few reasons people don't play either of those formats:
1. Availability (cost and tournaments)
2. They have no experience with the format and they are scared of them based on misconceptions (there's no diversity, its all turn 1 combos, etc)
3. They don't play competitively and like a different format for their casual play
4. They want a format that changes/rotates more (standard/limited)
Reason 1 has nothing to do with the actual quality of the format. Reason 2 is entirely based on misinformation and therefore invalid. Reason 3 and 4 is totally legit and understandably.
Sometimes standard is good, but that varies. Control and tempo are usually absent, and combo has disappeared entirely. Its usually dominated by 2-4 decks and runs out of room for innovation fast.
If you want a non-rotating format but you follow the logic behind reasons 1-3 modern might be where you end up.
EDH and pauper are can be a lot of fun, but a competitive level they get pretty dry.
poor play experience? for whom? For people who play decks that can't stop combo?
However, "access to format" is a big part of "best format" so it is going to have to be modern that most people will agree on which strikes the best balance of accessibility and awesome fun.
Also, drafting, because drafting.
Best casual formats: Commander/EDH. Can be played on any budget and at any level of viciousness. Arguably the most social of all formats. Commander is meant to played with people, not against them.
Best competitive formats: Standard, Modern, and Legacy.
Vintage is simply too expensive for most people and limited and block are both highly variable. You can have a great block/limited format or a horrible one depending on the included sets.
-Anonymous
you invest about 3000 dollars in a couple playsets of important stuff (mainly lands and some other stuff) and then you never spend a lot again...
once you have some ABU duals, fetches, FoW and some other staples, you're just a few bucks away from a multitude of competitive decks.
your cards WON'T devaluate over time, instead a lot of the staples get progressively more expensive as the time goes, so if you want to stop playing legacy you'll realistically get almost all of your money back, and maybe even end up with a net gain.
If you compete in standard, you'll spend a lot less for each rotation, but almost every card in your deck will devaluate by the end of the season, thus, you're losing money each year.
in the long run, if you play like 10 years or so in competitive tier 1 mode, you'll certainly spend a lot more money in standard than you would in legacy.
that said, imo, the card availability issue is a bigger issue than the price per se.
I mean, It's a lot easier to have 300 dollars to spend than to find those 4 Force of Will to spend that money into.
If the reserve list just vanished from existence, then probably legacy would spike in popularity as soon as WotC start reprinting the staples.
for me... Problems with card availability and initial investments aside, Legacy is by far the best format.
Lots of viable strategies, combos, aggro, control, tempo and midrange conviving and competing in harmony.
simply amazing format with high power level and very skill intensive.
I never used to really enjoy it, but there's actually a ton of skill involved. Sure, if you pull the right mythic you can still luck yourself into a win, but building good decks consistently actually requires a ton of skill.
I'm not that great of a drafter yet (I can't often tell what colors my neighbors are in) but I've definitely seen myself improve with each draft, and I'm having a ton of fun with it.
The only down side to drafting is having to buy into it, so honestly I'd say a well-designed cube is the absolute best format.
If you're talking constructed, I like legacy the best, though I do enjoy modern. It's hard to say about standard, it honestly depends on the year. But that's fine, because standard being "ever-changing" makes it pretty fun as well.
EDH is ok, but I don't really care for it. Decks in EDH are either too good or too bad and there doesn't seem to be much in between. Also, games can go on for well over an hour, and that is just too long.
yeah, draft is awesome
but it's an entirely different game and skill set.
either way, it's really cool to play even though decks tend to be a lot more sloppy and consistency tends not to be a thing.
Legacy and Modern I'm less a fan of because I find fair vs. unfair matchups boring and uninteractive. Standard I might give a shot if it weren't for the financial black hole that is constant rotation. And I don't like EDH because it seems the format (especially multiplayer) biases too heavily toward control + oops I win combo, and tediously long games.
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Oh man I was about to say legacy then I forgot I do play 2HG Standard and love it.
I just hate the rotating nature of Standard to keep playing. A friend of mine would play Mono-U Devotion, I'd play R/W Devotion in MTGO and call ourselves Team 'Murika and achieve great results.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund