As we all know there are plenty of cards which bend (and occasionally break) the default rules of Magic in unconventional ways.
Personally, I've always been fond of and intrigued by cards of that nature, but I was wondering recently if something could ever realistically be designed and printed beyond what cards like mirror gallery, serum powder, darkpact, shahrazad, relentless rats, conspiracies, vanguards, and other anomalies do.
The idea I had is as follows, and I'm curious to know what others might think...
Hypothetically, imagine if you will that there was a card...a legendary enchantment (or perhaps even an enchant world) which read something along the lines of:
You may only include one copy of <this card> in your deck or sideboard.
If <this card> is in your deck or sideboard, reveal it to all players before players draw their opening hands.
If <this card> is on the battlefield, you may play cards which are otherwise banned in the format you're playing.
If <this card> would leave the battlefield, its owner loses the game instead.
Now obviously a hypothetical card of this unusual nature would be very risky to play since a single removal spell against it would cost you the game.
However, could such an obscure card be worth playing in some decks if it existed?
I'm honestly not sure what its converted mana cost would have to be to make it viable (without being broken), nor do I have any clue what color(s) it would fit into best (perhaps it could even be colorless so all decks could potentially have access to it), but it's something I'd love to see one day if only to know it exists.
So I guess I'd like some objective opinions from others.
Would you be for or against such a card's existence and why?
Would it warp Magic too much?
In which format(s) and archetype(s) might it see play?
Would you ever consider playing it?
Would it be more realistic as a different card type?
Do you think it should/would have any additional restrictions or drawbacks aside from being a one-of (ie: being legal in legacy and edh but not in modern, or vice versa)?
What if it had a bonus leyline-esque ability that allowed its owner to begin the game with it on the battlefield if it were in their opening hand?
Am I completely nuts for even conceiving and suggesting such an abomination?
Thanks in advance for all your insights, opinions, and constructive criticisms.
Now Discuss and Debate!
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
A lot of things are risky. For a game-winning spell, the risk is irrelevant. Let's say you make this 1 or 2cc. Yes, I will play it, even if your deck has removal.
The problems:
1) certain deck types cannot handle certain cards. If you make this a legendary enchantment, it behooves everyone to play anti-enchantments, which is the province of white and green. Black certainly gets the shaft, it can't be on a creature that's removable. If you make it an artifact, then it forces everyone to play anti artifacts. The safest (for the game) would be making it a creature, but even then some cards are insta win. Or you can call up a donate and give it to your opponent.
2) This would require a nearly encyclopedic amount of rules-knowledge with regards to interactions.
3) achieving balance for the new sets would nearly be impossible, as you now have to take into account every set that ever existed. Legacy and vintage get away with it, but standard or modern won't.
4) Mr. Suitcase scenario, where you bring every card you ever own on the off chance that it will useful in that specific matchup. The wishes prevented this in a tournament setting by making the wished card part of the sideboard (ie in a tournament you can only wish for cards in your sideboard), but in casual I've seen people lugging around entire cases worth of cards for their wishes.
5) Some cards are banned not because of power reasons, but for other reasons. Ante cards can be interpreted as gambling, which is why Wizards dropped it in order to avoid legal hassles (and no one really wants to lose in an ante). Cards like chaos orb require manual dexterity AND is a rules nightmare with a dozen or so interpretations. Cards like SDT are banned because it caused delays in the game, and that's the official reason why Shahrazad was banned as well. You'd have to address all of these problems if you want a card that banned to be playable.
Would you be for or against such a card's existence and why?
Would it warp Magic too much?
In which format(s) and archetype(s) might it see play?
Would you ever consider playing it?
Completely against.
Yes, but depends on playability.
Depends on the cost.
Depends on the cost.
I like cards like mirror gallery, serum powder & relentless rats. The card you described seems absurd though. While the effect is absurd in it's self, it still needs to be balanced.
Revealing something from your deck like that takes out all variance, you need to at least have to draw the card like a leyline in your opening hand. Idk how you would get around playing banned cards without going into silver border UN Territory. Were it silver border I would make something like this "You may reveal ~ from your opening hand, if you do you may replace it with any Card with a Magic: The Gathering back that doesn't have the word ante. That card is legal for the remainder of the game." That wording is vague though.
Also, how about "Search your library for a creature card, this card becomes your commander for the remainder of the match." Or "You may reveal ~ from your opening hand, if you do it becomes your commander for the remainder of the match." All it would need is rules to define a commander is non EDH magic.
For a more mild approach how about a card like a 1/1 haste goblin for R that lets you play 5 copies of it.
As it happens, you still wouldn't be allowed to play ante cards. Their first ability prevents them from being in your deck if you're not playing for ante independently of the format rules.
Also, as far as the dexterity cards goes, I'm pretty sure that their abilities simply do nothing. None of their keyword actions (aside from destroy and tap) are defined by the comp rules, so they might as well be assembling things.
For an example of a rule that COULD be broken but so far never has.... something that lets you attack during an opponent's turn? Something that lets sorceries and instants end up on the battlefield in some fashion? An aura or equipment that can be attached to more than one thing at the same time? Something which makes token lands? (You can currently make token lands via some combinations of cards such as animating a land and then casting rites of replication on it, but I don't think there's anything with an ability like "T: put a forest token onto the battlefield".) Something which "counters" playing a land?
A few of the things that have shown up on UN cards are at least within the realm of possibility... something which affects future games? There's some potential there, I think. Much the way wishes work one way in tournaments (sideboard only) vs casual (your entire collection), something which affected the next game you played against this opponent could work one way in tournaments (future games in the same match only) and another way in casual (next casual game against the same opponent, assuming you remember).
As it happens, you still wouldn't be allowed to play ante cards. Their first ability prevents them from being in your deck if you're not playing for ante independently of the format rules.
That restriction wouldn't matter, though. Assuming a game with Black Lotus banned where "outside the game" denotes a player's entire collection (as even with this card, the only legal Wish-eligible cards would be ones that are restricted to the format in question in a sanctioned event), you would be able to play Black Lotus, Chaos Orb, Shahrazad, ante cards, and so on, since they never started the game in your deck or sideboard in the first place.
Of course, if this were in a game where "outside the game" refers to sideboard, then since the sideboard is still restricted to only format-legal cards, the "I can break format legality restrictions" ability of this card would effectively be useless.
Also, as far as the dexterity cards goes, I'm pretty sure that their abilities simply do nothing. None of their keyword actions (aside from destroy and tap) are defined by the comp rules, so they might as well be assembling things.
As far as reading into the CR goes, the word "flip" on Chaos Orb carries the same English meaning as the word "flip" from "flipping a coin". The action of putting the card or coin in the air is the same in both and matches the English definition of the word, so that usage of the word "flip" doesn't need to be defined in the CR for the card to work properly. (That the card is banned in every format aside from casual is irrelevant.)
For an example of a rule that COULD be broken but so far never has.... something that lets you attack during an opponent's turn? Something that lets sorceries and instants end up on the battlefield in some fashion? An aura or equipment that can be attached to more than one thing at the same time? Something which makes token lands? (You can currently make token lands via some combinations of cards such as animating a land and then casting rites of replication on it, but I don't think there's anything with an ability like "T: put a forest token onto the battlefield".) Something which "counters" playing a land?
(emphasis mine)
This is one of the issues I have with this thread in the Custom Card Rulings forum. Obviously, instant and sorcery cards can't enter the battlefield themselves, but if the instant/sorcery card that represents a 2/2 face-down creature enters the battlefield and is turned face-up, there is now an instant or sorcery object on the battlefield even though the object itself never entered the battlefield while it was an instant or sorcery object.
I won't bring up the detailed discussion here since this is neither the Magic Rulings nor Custom Card Rulings forum, but since the addition of such a card -- either the one you propose in the part that I emphasized, or the one suggested in the OP -- requires a change to the CR, then for your card, 110.4 would be changed to exclude the second sentence, and for the OP's card, the CR would be changed to define which format-illegal cards are allowed to be played.
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I always thought it would be interesting if a card destroyed a zone. Like a card that destroys the battle field so nothing can ever be on the battle field again for that game.
The card you propose would do nothing useful. It's not simply a matter of wording the text slightly differently; it simply does not work. Card text overrides the gameplay rules, but it does not and cannot override the tournament rules. Cards like Relentless Rats work because the "you can only have 4 of X in your deck" is a gameplay rule, specifically rule 100.2a in the Comprehensive Rules. Whether a card is legal in a given format like Modern, Vintage, etc. is not covered in the CR but in the Tournament Rules, e.g. the Vintage format card list is in section 6.5 in the current Tournament Rules.
Similarly, cards that allow stalling, bribery, etc. will never exist outside of Un- sets. And even if they did, they would have no effect whatsoever in a tournament setting.
Right, obviously the drop in quality would have had to have happened much earlier for them to be reaching the point where they are regulating tournament structure. Thus, these regulations signify that wizards jumped the shark.
So you're wrong on the internet. Happens to everyone. Don't bother responding.
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Personally, I've always been fond of and intrigued by cards of that nature, but I was wondering recently if something could ever realistically be designed and printed beyond what cards like mirror gallery, serum powder, darkpact, shahrazad, relentless rats, conspiracies, vanguards, and other anomalies do.
The idea I had is as follows, and I'm curious to know what others might think...
Hypothetically, imagine if you will that there was a card...a legendary enchantment (or perhaps even an enchant world) which read something along the lines of:
You may only include one copy of <this card> in your deck or sideboard.
If <this card> is in your deck or sideboard, reveal it to all players before players draw their opening hands.
If <this card> is on the battlefield, you may play cards which are otherwise banned in the format you're playing.
If <this card> would leave the battlefield, its owner loses the game instead.
Now obviously a hypothetical card of this unusual nature would be very risky to play since a single removal spell against it would cost you the game.
However, could such an obscure card be worth playing in some decks if it existed?
I'm honestly not sure what its converted mana cost would have to be to make it viable (without being broken), nor do I have any clue what color(s) it would fit into best (perhaps it could even be colorless so all decks could potentially have access to it), but it's something I'd love to see one day if only to know it exists.
So I guess I'd like some objective opinions from others.
Would you be for or against such a card's existence and why?
Would it warp Magic too much?
In which format(s) and archetype(s) might it see play?
Would you ever consider playing it?
Would it be more realistic as a different card type?
Do you think it should/would have any additional restrictions or drawbacks aside from being a one-of (ie: being legal in legacy and edh but not in modern, or vice versa)?
What if it had a bonus leyline-esque ability that allowed its owner to begin the game with it on the battlefield if it were in their opening hand?
Am I completely nuts for even conceiving and suggesting such an abomination?
Thanks in advance for all your insights, opinions, and constructive criticisms.
Now Discuss and Debate!
The problems:
1) certain deck types cannot handle certain cards. If you make this a legendary enchantment, it behooves everyone to play anti-enchantments, which is the province of white and green. Black certainly gets the shaft, it can't be on a creature that's removable. If you make it an artifact, then it forces everyone to play anti artifacts. The safest (for the game) would be making it a creature, but even then some cards are insta win. Or you can call up a donate and give it to your opponent.
2) This would require a nearly encyclopedic amount of rules-knowledge with regards to interactions.
3) achieving balance for the new sets would nearly be impossible, as you now have to take into account every set that ever existed. Legacy and vintage get away with it, but standard or modern won't.
4) Mr. Suitcase scenario, where you bring every card you ever own on the off chance that it will useful in that specific matchup. The wishes prevented this in a tournament setting by making the wished card part of the sideboard (ie in a tournament you can only wish for cards in your sideboard), but in casual I've seen people lugging around entire cases worth of cards for their wishes.
5) Some cards are banned not because of power reasons, but for other reasons. Ante cards can be interpreted as gambling, which is why Wizards dropped it in order to avoid legal hassles (and no one really wants to lose in an ante). Cards like chaos orb require manual dexterity AND is a rules nightmare with a dozen or so interpretations. Cards like SDT are banned because it caused delays in the game, and that's the official reason why Shahrazad was banned as well. You'd have to address all of these problems if you want a card that banned to be playable.
Completely against.
Yes, but depends on playability.
Depends on the cost.
Depends on the cost.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Reminds me of this: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/24lrp1/standoff_in_honolulu/
Revealing something from your deck like that takes out all variance, you need to at least have to draw the card like a leyline in your opening hand. Idk how you would get around playing banned cards without going into silver border UN Territory. Were it silver border I would make something like this "You may reveal ~ from your opening hand, if you do you may replace it with any Card with a Magic: The Gathering back that doesn't have the word ante. That card is legal for the remainder of the game." That wording is vague though.
Also, how about "Search your library for a creature card, this card becomes your commander for the remainder of the match." Or "You may reveal ~ from your opening hand, if you do it becomes your commander for the remainder of the match." All it would need is rules to define a commander is non EDH magic.
For a more mild approach how about a card like a 1/1 haste goblin for R that lets you play 5 copies of it.
Also, as far as the dexterity cards goes, I'm pretty sure that their abilities simply do nothing. None of their keyword actions (aside from destroy and tap) are defined by the comp rules, so they might as well be assembling things.
A few of the things that have shown up on UN cards are at least within the realm of possibility... something which affects future games? There's some potential there, I think. Much the way wishes work one way in tournaments (sideboard only) vs casual (your entire collection), something which affected the next game you played against this opponent could work one way in tournaments (future games in the same match only) and another way in casual (next casual game against the same opponent, assuming you remember).
That restriction wouldn't matter, though. Assuming a game with Black Lotus banned where "outside the game" denotes a player's entire collection (as even with this card, the only legal Wish-eligible cards would be ones that are restricted to the format in question in a sanctioned event), you would be able to play Black Lotus, Chaos Orb, Shahrazad, ante cards, and so on, since they never started the game in your deck or sideboard in the first place.
Of course, if this were in a game where "outside the game" refers to sideboard, then since the sideboard is still restricted to only format-legal cards, the "I can break format legality restrictions" ability of this card would effectively be useless.
As far as reading into the CR goes, the word "flip" on Chaos Orb carries the same English meaning as the word "flip" from "flipping a coin". The action of putting the card or coin in the air is the same in both and matches the English definition of the word, so that usage of the word "flip" doesn't need to be defined in the CR for the card to work properly. (That the card is banned in every format aside from casual is irrelevant.)
(emphasis mine)
This is one of the issues I have with this thread in the Custom Card Rulings forum. Obviously, instant and sorcery cards can't enter the battlefield themselves, but if the instant/sorcery card that represents a 2/2 face-down creature enters the battlefield and is turned face-up, there is now an instant or sorcery object on the battlefield even though the object itself never entered the battlefield while it was an instant or sorcery object.
I won't bring up the detailed discussion here since this is neither the Magic Rulings nor Custom Card Rulings forum, but since the addition of such a card -- either the one you propose in the part that I emphasized, or the one suggested in the OP -- requires a change to the CR, then for your card, 110.4 would be changed to exclude the second sentence, and for the OP's card, the CR would be changed to define which format-illegal cards are allowed to be played.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Similarly, cards that allow stalling, bribery, etc. will never exist outside of Un- sets. And even if they did, they would have no effect whatsoever in a tournament setting.
Right, obviously the drop in quality would have had to have happened much earlier for them to be reaching the point where they are regulating tournament structure. Thus, these regulations signify that wizards jumped the shark.
So you're wrong on the internet. Happens to everyone. Don't bother responding.