I am TOing a 4 round free entry FNM standard block (the store owner lets specific regulars run the events as I am getting experience using the system/computer program and judging before getting inspected/watched for test). We have a single mother who reads in the book store while her 2 children play (Middle school at most, they understand the base rules and moderate tricks). Older one is 2-0-1 playing against a seasoned/regular first place 3-0. I look around for him after calling pairings and starting the timer. I approach his mother and ask her if she has seen him - she said check bathroom, if not, ut oh. He is not in the bathroom, so I go next door to Wallgreens. He is there in line getting chips. I tell him round has already started, you need to get over there now. He drops his chips and runs over.
It was about 7 minutes into the round when I found him. I walked in and told his mother I found him and he is now playing at the front tables. I asked if I could talk to him afterwards. She sounded delighted and told me to lay into him..... I pulled him aside and explained to him 'nicely' (not going into him) that he needs to either ask me how much time is left or that he is stepping out (I don't however, want to be a babysitter). I also told him that he needs to be more humble than gloating and shouting around the store that you came first place. Also that he needs to go to the other player and say thank you, good match, rather than explaining that he just threw the deck together (RG monsters version).
They have been there for about... 2 months now, so it wasn't that I have never interacted with them before. Has enyone else experienced this before? I believe I did the right thing and did not go over the top. Thank you for reading.
You did good, it helps them out to be prepared for a more strict tournament when the time comes. I will say though, that from how the title was stated I thought you had to given out a harsher penalty for something else.
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You were way more lenient than any judge would have been at a real event, even FNM. I understand you are trying to learn in order to become a judge, just be careful that you don't let habits like that translate into real judging. Leaving the store to look for a missing player is far beyond what a judge is expected to do, and you also run the risk of angering players who are expecting rules enforcement. Normally a thing like this is "he's not here? game loss."
I was really really considering a game loss to 'teach him a lesson' and I bet his mother would have backed me up. I even asked the store owner (who plays with us about the situation and we both agreed on not giving one).
But yes, I get concerned for children in general...
Giving a game loss for tardness isn't supported directly by the JAR, assuming it was under 10 minutes it is just a stern reprimand. After ten minutes they lose the match.
Educating players who exhibit these behaviors should be your primary motivation as a judge. It can be useful
to reinforce this education with more stern penalties should a player's unwanted behaviour continue,
especially in cases where players are likely to upset others. A player that is more than 10 minutes late to a
match is considered to have forfeited the match and should be dropped at the end of round if he or she is still
absent.
If he kept being late by a few minutes then giving a game loss seems more supported.
edit: I find it to be very good customer service to try and help a player who might have lost track of time. If players are expecting strict rules enforcement at regular then they should be reminded the mentality behind Regular REL.
There are some kids who play in the Modern FNMs at my LGS, and they couldn't be older than thirteen. They don't use sideboards, yet they get upset and won't shut up about losing. The worst part is when their mother comes to the shop around 10:30PM and whines at them to come home after every match... Unsuccessfully. She should really be more strict, and actually enforce her curfew.
BTW ajprokos, next time something like this happens, just penalize the kid. Being nice to him isn't going to benefit anyone.
Sounds to me like you did great. You didn't mention how old this kid is, but assuming he's 10 or so, and just learning to play magic, then explaining the rules and what is expected during a tourney is just what he needs.
Usually, if you're giving anyone a game loss at FNM, you're doing something wrong.
Giving a game loss for tardness isn't supported directly by the JAR, assuming it was under 10 minutes it is just a stern reprimand. After ten minutes they lose the match.
Educating players who exhibit these behaviors should be your primary motivation as a judge. It can be useful
to reinforce this education with more stern penalties should a player's unwanted behaviour continue,
especially in cases where players are likely to upset others. A player that is more than 10 minutes late to a
match is considered to have forfeited the match and should be dropped at the end of round if he or she is still
absent.
If he kept being late by a few minutes then giving a game loss seems more supported.
edit: I find it to be very good customer service to try and help a player who might have lost track of time. If players are expecting strict rules enforcement at regular then they should be reminded the mentality behind Regular REL.
duly noted. Looking back at the event, I believe I would have given a game loss if it exceeded 10 mins (and I was unable to find him). I do try and educate as much as possible (while not trying to 'help' players during their games - some people have a habit of for advice) for example little stuff as in telling them to untap before drawing.
There are some kids who play in the Modern FNMs at my LGS, and they couldn't be older than thirteen. They don't use sideboards, yet they get upset and won't shut up about losing. The worst part is when their mother comes to the shop around 10:30PM and whines at them to come home after every match... Unsuccessfully. She should really be more strict, and actually enforce her curfew.
BTW ajprokos, next time something like this happens, just penalize the kid. Being nice to him isn't going to benefit anyone.
they don't whine per se. I have played against them - the yonger one plays 5 color slivers with only basics and 1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx (funny I know). But if he gets color screwed or can't get more than 2 lands, he is like oh well, explains it, tells you what he is doing or what he could have done.
I believe his mother would penalized him for being tardy or running over faster than I could. lol
If your a judge (which the TO is the head judge if he doesn't appoint one) then you should definitely step in and tell them that. As a judge part of your job is education, while maybe avoiding strategic advice, helping people out and making sure they play properly is always fine.
Sounds to me like you did great. You didn't mention how old this kid is, but assuming he's 10 or so, and just learning to play magic, then explaining the rules and what is expected during a tourney is just what he needs.
Usually, if you're giving anyone a game loss at FNM, you're doing something wrong.
So no game loss, just a match loss it seems. I will reread the JAR again.
Also that he needs to go to the other player and say thank you, good match, rather than explaining that he just threw the deck together (RG monsters version).
*****, I do this all of the time but it's before I actually play the match. sometimes after.
I do it now because I was playing some 19 year old who accused me of wasting his time for playing trash.
so now I just tell them hey man, I don't play standard and im going to read the ***** out of everything and you're going to have to explain some interactions/meta combos as you do them no offense not accusing you or anything I just don't play standard that often.
then I legitimately feel bad if I do win, a single round. they spent all that time and money on those decks.
Also that he needs to go to the other player and say thank you, good match, rather than explaining that he just threw the deck together (RG monsters version).
*****, I do this all of the time but it's before I actually play the match. sometimes after.
I do it now because I was playing some 19 year old who accused me of wasting his time for playing trash.
so now I just tell them hey man, I don't play standard and im going to read the ***** out of everything and you're going to have to explain some interactions/meta combos as you do them no offense not accusing you or anything I just don't play standard that often.
then I legitimately feel bad if I do win, a single round. they spent all that time and money on those decks.
I can I understand if it is before the match. Sort of like mind games. But once the game ended, he jumped in the air, screaming etc. Not sure what the other guy said, but he was pretty adamant proclaiming that he just threw it together etc.
Personally, I'd rather my opponent show up to the round 5-10 minutes late because they were hungry and required something to eat (a necessity for life) as opposed to showing up on time and reeking of the cigarette they just smoked between rounds.
That being said, perhaps the store should be given an infraction for not selling chips (and other food, caffeinated beverages, etc)
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
Personally, I'd rather my opponent show up to the round 5-10 minutes late because they were hungry and required something to eat (a necessity for life) as opposed to showing up on time and reeking of the cigarette they just smoked between rounds.
That being said, perhaps the store should be given an infraction for not selling chips (and other food, caffeinated beverages, etc)
it is a first-rate second-hand book and media store that buys and sells. Small coffee shop and soda vending machine.
To echo what others have said, you did good. I don't think you would do the same leniency at a Competitive REL tournament, but at FNM, TNM tournaments, it's fine and sometimes expected.
Good call and it's good you didn't lay into the kid too much. Even if his mother says it's okay, it never really is. (Because you're the Judge, not his parent.)
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Also that he needs to go to the other player and say thank you, good match, rather than explaining that he just threw the deck together (RG monsters version).
*****, I do this all of the time but it's before I actually play the match. sometimes after.
I do it now because I was playing some 19 year old who accused me of wasting his time for playing trash.
so now I just tell them hey man, I don't play standard and im going to read the ***** out of everything and you're going to have to explain some interactions/meta combos as you do them no offense not accusing you or anything I just don't play standard that often.
then I legitimately feel bad if I do win, a single round. they spent all that time and money on those decks.
I can I understand if it is before the match. Sort of like mind games. But once the game ended, he jumped in the air, screaming etc. Not sure what the other guy said, but he was pretty adamant proclaiming that he just threw it together etc.
I do it after the match to sometimes if I don't say anything before the match.
it's not mind games, it's me literally apologizing for not taking the game as "seriously" as they are. since the first FNM I had some older gentleman in his early 50's was screaming at me for joking around, playing with jank cards and still shutting his deck out because he couldn't get any land.
so I just make it a habit of letting people know, hey, chill the hell out im here for the free packs
You were way more lenient than any judge would have been at a real event, even FNM. I understand you are trying to learn in order to become a judge, just be careful that you don't let habits like that translate into real judging. Leaving the store to look for a missing player is far beyond what a judge is expected to do, and you also run the risk of angering players who are expecting rules enforcement. Normally a thing like this is "he's not here? game loss."
I disagree with this. At Regular REL, your first priority is making sure everyone is having a good time and running a smooth tournament. It sounds like, in this situation, the judge was going literally next door. Once the round is started, things are generally running pretty smoothly and is the moment where a judge can step away (sometimes the black shirts need bio breaks too). He saw an opportunity to ensure that the tournament continued without any unfortunate sanctions and took it. It was a pretty awesome thing to do.
And any time you take advantage of the teachable moments, you are advancing humanity for the better. Hopefully the kid in question learned a lesson in awareness of and respect for others on this day. If you start slinging around game/match losses on the first offense, you risk turning away permanently what sounds like a regular and generally desirable player.
Personally, I'd rather my opponent show up to the round 5-10 minutes late because they were hungry and required something to eat (a necessity for life) as opposed to showing up on time and reeking of the cigarette they just smoked between rounds.
That being said, perhaps the store should be given an infraction for not selling chips (and other food, caffeinated beverages, etc)
Eh, on this note, chips are not "life sustaining food" (although, catching a basket of fries between rounds at my first GP might have saved my life -- this is hyperbole). Asking how much time is remaining in the round is a good thing, and informing the judge that you are stepping away allows the judge to account for that when the next round starts and issue time extensions as may be necessary.
Giving a game loss for tardness isn't supported directly by the JAR, assuming it was under 10 minutes it is just a stern reprimand. After ten minutes they lose the match.
Educating players who exhibit these behaviors should be your primary motivation as a judge. It can be useful
to reinforce this education with more stern penalties should a player's unwanted behaviour continue,
especially in cases where players are likely to upset others. A player that is more than 10 minutes late to a
match is considered to have forfeited the match and should be dropped at the end of round if he or she is still
absent.
If he kept being late by a few minutes then giving a game loss seems more supported.
edit: I find it to be very good customer service to try and help a player who might have lost track of time. If players are expecting strict rules enforcement at regular then they should be reminded the mentality behind Regular REL.
Giving a game loss for tardness isn't supported directly by the JAR, assuming it was under 10 minutes it is just a stern reprimand. After ten minutes they lose the match.
Educating players who exhibit these behaviors should be your primary motivation as a judge. It can be useful
to reinforce this education with more stern penalties should a player's unwanted behaviour continue,
especially in cases where players are likely to upset others. A player that is more than 10 minutes late to a
match is considered to have forfeited the match and should be dropped at the end of round if he or she is still
absent.
If he kept being late by a few minutes then giving a game loss seems more supported.
edit: I find it to be very good customer service to try and help a player who might have lost track of time. If players are expecting strict rules enforcement at regular then they should be reminded the mentality behind Regular REL.
duly noted. Looking back at the event, I believe I would have given a game loss if it exceeded 10 mins (and I was unable to find him). I do try and educate as much as possible (while not trying to 'help' players during their games - some people have a habit of for advice) for example little stuff as in telling them to untap before drawing.
Do understand, the IPG (From which he is quoting) is meant for things like GPs, and makes certain to differentiate between 'match' and 'game'.
A game is what it sounds like, the match is the collection of games.
The penalty given for being tardy is a game loss, it goes on to say that if they are absent for more than ten minutes, they lose the match, meaning all of the games, and then, should they not report in by the end of the time limit, they are dropped. Just a reminder, it does not say to give a game loss for an absence of 10 minutes.
However, at FNM level, it is largely given up to discretion.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I said i quoted the JAR (judging at regular, thus applicable at FNM), from which i did. I never said or did refernce the IPG. The part i quoted came out of the generally unwanted section, in the paragraph just under tardiness.
edit: had i done the IPG there would have been a game loss for being late at all. Under the conditions that the round started on time (you can't get penalized if you get in your seat before the normal starting time), or the TO announced player had additional time before a penalty is issued.
I said i quoted the JAR (judging at regular, thus applicable at FNM), from which i did. I never said or did refernce the IPG. The part i quoted came out of the generally unwanted section, in the paragraph just under tardiness.
edit: had i done the IPG there would have been a game loss for being late at all. Under the conditions that the round started on time (you can't get penalized if you get in your seat before the normal starting time), or the TO announced player had additional time before a penalty is issued.
I will admit I identified the wrong text, my fault entirely. My greater point however was his taking your use of 'losing the match' to mean 'a game loss' as he reads what you quoted, and says that he would have agreed and given a 'game loss' after 10 minutes, which is different from what the quoted text is advising.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
If I was in you position I would have done the same thing except going out of the store. If it was me I would tell him to be more cautious of time and let him have a chance since of course its just a kid if it happened the 3rd time I would disqualify him. Thats just my opinion.
Speaking as a mother of a once-upon-a-time young kid, you were awesome. The mom, however, was not. It wasn't your job to go hunting around for her kid, it's her job to make sure he's where he's supposed to be, when he's supposed to be there*. And teach him manners to boot.
But I hope your gentle lessons stick with him, every opp he has from now on will owe you a debt.
*Not a TO, never play in events or FNM so perhaps I'm wrong on whether it's your job to go hunting for players.
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It was about 7 minutes into the round when I found him. I walked in and told his mother I found him and he is now playing at the front tables. I asked if I could talk to him afterwards. She sounded delighted and told me to lay into him..... I pulled him aside and explained to him 'nicely' (not going into him) that he needs to either ask me how much time is left or that he is stepping out (I don't however, want to be a babysitter). I also told him that he needs to be more humble than gloating and shouting around the store that you came first place. Also that he needs to go to the other player and say thank you, good match, rather than explaining that he just threw the deck together (RG monsters version).
They have been there for about... 2 months now, so it wasn't that I have never interacted with them before. Has enyone else experienced this before? I believe I did the right thing and did not go over the top. Thank you for reading.
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Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
But yes, I get concerned for children in general...
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Educating players who exhibit these behaviors should be your primary motivation as a judge. It can be useful
to reinforce this education with more stern penalties should a player's unwanted behaviour continue,
especially in cases where players are likely to upset others. A player that is more than 10 minutes late to a
match is considered to have forfeited the match and should be dropped at the end of round if he or she is still
absent.
If he kept being late by a few minutes then giving a game loss seems more supported.
edit: I find it to be very good customer service to try and help a player who might have lost track of time. If players are expecting strict rules enforcement at regular then they should be reminded the mentality behind Regular REL.
BTW ajprokos, next time something like this happens, just penalize the kid. Being nice to him isn't going to benefit anyone.
Give Zaliki a CardI must have all the cats!
Usually, if you're giving anyone a game loss at FNM, you're doing something wrong.
duly noted. Looking back at the event, I believe I would have given a game loss if it exceeded 10 mins (and I was unable to find him). I do try and educate as much as possible (while not trying to 'help' players during their games - some people have a habit of for advice) for example little stuff as in telling them to untap before drawing.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
they don't whine per se. I have played against them - the yonger one plays 5 color slivers with only basics and 1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx (funny I know). But if he gets color screwed or can't get more than 2 lands, he is like oh well, explains it, tells you what he is doing or what he could have done.
I believe his mother would penalized him for being tardy or running over faster than I could. lol
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
So no game loss, just a match loss it seems. I will reread the JAR again.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
*****, I do this all of the time but it's before I actually play the match. sometimes after.
I do it now because I was playing some 19 year old who accused me of wasting his time for playing trash.
so now I just tell them hey man, I don't play standard and im going to read the ***** out of everything and you're going to have to explain some interactions/meta combos as you do them no offense not accusing you or anything I just don't play standard that often.
then I legitimately feel bad if I do win, a single round. they spent all that time and money on those decks.
I can I understand if it is before the match. Sort of like mind games. But once the game ended, he jumped in the air, screaming etc. Not sure what the other guy said, but he was pretty adamant proclaiming that he just threw it together etc.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
That being said, perhaps the store should be given an infraction for not selling chips (and other food, caffeinated beverages, etc)
it is a first-rate second-hand book and media store that buys and sells. Small coffee shop and soda vending machine.
edit- i use the water fountain for my drinks.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Good call and it's good you didn't lay into the kid too much. Even if his mother says it's okay, it never really is. (Because you're the Judge, not his parent.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I do it after the match to sometimes if I don't say anything before the match.
it's not mind games, it's me literally apologizing for not taking the game as "seriously" as they are. since the first FNM I had some older gentleman in his early 50's was screaming at me for joking around, playing with jank cards and still shutting his deck out because he couldn't get any land.
so I just make it a habit of letting people know, hey, chill the hell out im here for the free packs
I disagree with this. At Regular REL, your first priority is making sure everyone is having a good time and running a smooth tournament. It sounds like, in this situation, the judge was going literally next door. Once the round is started, things are generally running pretty smoothly and is the moment where a judge can step away (sometimes the black shirts need bio breaks too). He saw an opportunity to ensure that the tournament continued without any unfortunate sanctions and took it. It was a pretty awesome thing to do.
And any time you take advantage of the teachable moments, you are advancing humanity for the better. Hopefully the kid in question learned a lesson in awareness of and respect for others on this day. If you start slinging around game/match losses on the first offense, you risk turning away permanently what sounds like a regular and generally desirable player.
Eh, on this note, chips are not "life sustaining food" (although, catching a basket of fries between rounds at my first GP might have saved my life -- this is hyperbole). Asking how much time is remaining in the round is a good thing, and informing the judge that you are stepping away allows the judge to account for that when the next round starts and issue time extensions as may be necessary.
Do understand, the IPG (From which he is quoting) is meant for things like GPs, and makes certain to differentiate between 'match' and 'game'.
A game is what it sounds like, the match is the collection of games.
The penalty given for being tardy is a game loss, it goes on to say that if they are absent for more than ten minutes, they lose the match, meaning all of the games, and then, should they not report in by the end of the time limit, they are dropped. Just a reminder, it does not say to give a game loss for an absence of 10 minutes.
However, at FNM level, it is largely given up to discretion.
edit: had i done the IPG there would have been a game loss for being late at all. Under the conditions that the round started on time (you can't get penalized if you get in your seat before the normal starting time), or the TO announced player had additional time before a penalty is issued.
I will admit I identified the wrong text, my fault entirely. My greater point however was his taking your use of 'losing the match' to mean 'a game loss' as he reads what you quoted, and says that he would have agreed and given a 'game loss' after 10 minutes, which is different from what the quoted text is advising.
thanks for the awsome image http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663!
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But I hope your gentle lessons stick with him, every opp he has from now on will owe you a debt.
*Not a TO, never play in events or FNM so perhaps I'm wrong on whether it's your job to go hunting for players.