Okay. I still think it is weird that this is even a thing.
It makes more sense if you get in a situation where you and your friends want to play friendly games at a reasonably competitive level for playtesting, but simultaneously dont feel like getting out notebooks and wasting pages.
It makes more sense if you get in a situation where you and your friends want to play friendly games at a reasonably competitive level for playtesting, but simultaneously dont feel like getting out notebooks and wasting pages.
I guess I just don't see how getting some paper and a writing implement is all that much of a hassle or hardship. Then again, I'm an adult so I tend to be prepared for such needs.
It makes more sense if you get in a situation where you and your friends want to play friendly games at a reasonably competitive level for playtesting, but simultaneously dont feel like getting out notebooks and wasting pages.
I guess I just don't see how getting some paper and a writing implement is all that much of a hassle or hardship. Then again, I'm an adult so I tend to be prepared for such needs.
Being an adult has little to do with it. Most people's lives no longer revolve around pen and paper enough to include it in their everyday carry.
And even if you do have the p&p, playing revealed really does speed up testing when such effects are common; allowing for extra time to discuss what the optimal picks/plays are, or to simply punch out a quicker game (especially PuGs).
I think it should be. It would save everyone a lot of time.
The client is pretty bad. If it's not in paper magic, why are they wasting time implementing it instead of refining the fundamentals?
Such as, oh I dunno, being able to see all the cards in my hand? And being able to know who's turn it is just by glancing at the screen? And making it so I don't accidentally skip my first main phase, or both main phases due to holding down F2 for a split second too long or from now knowing who's turn it is? And being SHOWN revealed cards as they are revealed? (That is, after all, what revealed means? Is it not how a game of MtG is played?) Somehow none of these things are important but a revealed zone... oh yea, you just gotta have that.
Second, it does not save time. Every time my opponent reveals cards from the top of their deck I have to dig up the "revealed zone" in order to see them, and then click the X on each individual card in order to dismiss them. It is actually faster to type them down or take a screenshot, or just use your memory, but V4 does not give you a choice.
Also, revealed is NOT A ZONE. If you're gonna make it a zone, why not also make a zone for "cards in your library". (not in their current order of course) That would be a hell of a lot more useful.
Also, revealed is NOT A ZONE. If you're gonna make it a zone, why not also make a zone for "cards in your library". (not in their current order of course) That would be a hell of a lot more useful.
I don't think they should call it a zone, as that word has rules attached to it, but I don't mind it being there.
Being an adult has little to do with it. Most people's lives no longer revolve around pen and paper enough to include it in their everyday carry.
I don't need it every day, but I like to be prepared for when I do. I guess it is all relative but I cannot think of an adult I know who would not have paper and a writing device close at hand (might be out in the car if not on their person). Heck, most youth and folks in their 20's are comfortable enough with technology that they will be able to, in moments, jot down a few abbreviated names on a smartphone or tablet app if no pen and paper are handy. It seems odd to me that a person going out of the house would not carry pen, paper, or a smart device, but I guess that is not the case outside my sphere of knowledge. Again, this is just a weird concept for me because it has never occurred, been asked for, or been witnessed by me in the 13 years I have played.
Depends on my mood whether I'll leave cards face up on the table after I reveal them to a thoughtseize, probe, etc. etc. and who my opponent is. As well as if I'm playing brainstorm or not. I certainly don't expect my opponent to leave their cards revealed face up on the table after a thoughtseize and I always write the cards down on my paper that I use for life totals. No reason not to since it takes 15 seconds or something due to the wonderful 'invention' of acronyms.
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The client is pretty bad. If it's not in paper magic, why are they wasting time implementing it instead of refining the fundamentals?
You misunderstood my post. I meant that I wanted the actual rules of paper MtG to specify that revealed cards stay revealed, specifically so that time is not wasted writing down cards in events. Imagine every Legacy, Modern or Standard player in the world spending 30 seconds to jot down cards every time Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek or Gitaxian Probe is cast. That's a lot of time that could otherwise have been spent playing MtG.
The client is pretty bad. If it's not in paper magic, why are they wasting time implementing it instead of refining the fundamentals?
You misunderstood my post. I meant that I wanted the actual rules of paper MtG to specify that revealed cards stay revealed, specifically so that time is not wasted writing down cards in events. Imagine every Legacy, Modern or Standard player in the world spending 30 seconds to jot down cards every time Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek or Gitaxian Probe is cast. That's a lot of time that could otherwise have been spent playing MtG.
In big events you often have little space. Keeping the cards revealed would effectively be more cards on the battlefield as well as potentially create confusion as to what is in play or not. It might also make the game less enjoyable for the person who is having his hand revealed.
Not saying I am against your idea, I just feel the downsides should be brought to attention.
I guess it might worth it though, since the rule would promote sportsmanship in a way.
But, in V4 client, it does not work how it would in real life if the opponent kept his hand revealed. In V4 you have to keep track of what your opponent plays and then manually check off each card one by one as he plays them. It is in effect no different from keeping track in notepad or taking a screenshot. Some "feature". Even Magic Workstation is able to automate the whole process. I can reveal my hand and the cards stay revealed until I play them. Not that I reveal an Island, and my opponent goes "oh ,he played an Island", draws up the revealed zone, finds an Island, and then closes it. (closes it = click on the X on the top right of the card, like it's a window being closed... it's hilarious) Until he does this, the Island displayed in his "revealed zone" is a duplicate -- that Island doesn't exist. None of the cards in the revealed zone exist. Revealed is not a zone. If the opponent forgets to "close" all the revealed cards as I play them, he may check the revealed zone later and think I still have an Island or whatever in my hand.
The client is pretty bad. If it's not in paper magic, why are they wasting time implementing it instead of refining the fundamentals?
You misunderstood my post. I meant that I wanted the actual rules of paper MtG to specify that revealed cards stay revealed, specifically so that time is not wasted writing down cards in events. Imagine every Legacy, Modern or Standard player in the world spending 30 seconds to jot down cards every time Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek or Gitaxian Probe is cast. That's a lot of time that could otherwise have been spent playing MtG.
i think in all of my years of playing magic i have spent more time waiting for some one to finish shuffling after using fetch lands then i ever have waiting for them to right down my hand after a thoughtseize. adding another zone just to save literally 30 seconds every couple of matches is way over board
With the recent influx of new players, I actually almost always leave my hand up with revealed cards, because a lot of players let their own knowledge scare them.
Not saying I am against your idea, I just feel the downsides should be brought to attention.
I guess it might worth it though, since the rule would promote sportsmanship in a way.
If space becomes an issue you can just keep the revealed cards in a stack, like the GY. You and the opponent only need to be able to check revealed cards on demand. There is no requirement to actually have everything laid out separately on the play area. You could also use the lands as a "divider" of sorts to separate revealed cards from cards in play.
I'm fairly sure it won't be a big problem. We already have seen pros playing with cards revealed at the pro tour level, and keeping cards revealed in casual games or playtesting games is fairly common. Frankly I don't see how it would be more annoying than waiting for the opponent to write everything down, then having him check his list and cross off cards every time you play something.
Also, in V4 client, it does not work how it would in real life if the opponent kept his hand revealed. In V4 you have to keep track of what your opponent plays and then manually check off each card one by one as he plays them. It is in effect no different from keeping track in notepad or taking a screenshot. Some "feature".
That sounds like shoddy implementation on the part of MTGO.
i think in all of my years of playing magic i have spent more time waiting for some one to finish shuffling after using fetch lands then i ever have waiting for them to right down my hand after a thoughtseize. adding another zone just to save literally 30 seconds every couple of matches is way over board
I don't think the two are comparable. Shuffling the deck is an inherently time consuming task. Keeping track of revealed cards has a convenient shortcut that is already seeing limited use at both the professional and casual level. Adding a rule to that effect simply formalizes this shortcut.
Also, even if they were comparable, I don't understand the logic behind your argument. When you are wasting time in two separate areas of gameplay, the logical response is to stop wasting time in both areas. It makes no sense to use time wasted in one area to justify wasting even more time in another. It's like saying that you might as well do a lot of drunk driving since you're already putting your life at risk with your smoking habit.
On the other hand... and maybe I'm in a minority who does this, I sometimes sequence the cards in my hand in particular ways as to how I might play them, or if I want to remind myself that the opponent has an answer to a card, or something like that. So, if I am obligated to keep revealed cards revealed forever, I will not have that very simple mnemonic available to me. Having a revealed "zone" could lead to confusion, as was pointed out, if you are thinking through your plays and, as many players do, you manipulate your cards into different patterns until your play is decided. And think of the poor fellows who nervously flick the cards in their hands repeatedly in an obnoxious tick. You can't take that away from them. I think it's OK to let your hand be your hand. Obligating someone to continue to DISPLAY their hand is silly.
A player once tried to obligate me to lay my cards out face down in a particular pattern before the start of each game, so that he could count them more easily. I refused.
Not saying I am against your idea, I just feel the downsides should be brought to attention.
I guess it might worth it though, since the rule would promote sportsmanship in a way.
If space becomes an issue you can just keep the revealed cards in a stack, like the GY. You and the opponent only need to be able to check revealed cards on demand. There is no requirement to actually have everything laid out separately on the play area. You could also use the lands as a "divider" of sorts to separate revealed cards from cards in play.
I'm fairly sure it won't be a big problem. We already have seen pros playing with cards revealed at the pro tour level, and keeping cards revealed in casual games or playtesting games is fairly common. Frankly I don't see how it would be more annoying than waiting for the opponent to write everything down, then having him check his list and cross off cards every time you play something.
Also, in V4 client, it does not work how it would in real life if the opponent kept his hand revealed. In V4 you have to keep track of what your opponent plays and then manually check off each card one by one as he plays them. It is in effect no different from keeping track in notepad or taking a screenshot. Some "feature".
That sounds like shoddy implementation on the part of MTGO.
Not really, what v4 is essentially doing is writing it down for you, though it is doing so visually. It is not creating a new rule, as you suggest, it is automating an action that most players do with pen and paper.
On the other hand... and maybe I'm in a minority who does this, I sometimes sequence the cards in my hand in particular ways as to how I might play them, or if I want to remind myself that the opponent has an answer to a card, or something like that.
Lots of people do this. I always look to see if my opponent does this, and when they do it usually allows me to get a rough idea of how many lands they have, whether they have countermagic, and whether they have a powerful card they really want to resolve.
I think it's OK to let your hand be your hand. Obligating someone to continue to DISPLAY their hand is silly.
I think wasting time writing down cards and crossing them out is even sillier, and I cannot understand why people still insist it would be confusing. We aren't speculating on some brand new idea that has never been tried before. We don't need to figure out how it would play out. Many players already do this, and it works just fine.
Not really, what v4 is essentially doing is writing it down for you, though it is doing so visually. It is not creating a new rule, as you suggest, it is automating an action that most players do with pen and paper.
I was referring to the way you have to manually close the card by clicking on the "x".
And when you write down a card it doesn't go away unless you erase or mark it off.
If you're already automating the step where you write the card down, why wouldn't you also automate marking the cards that have been played?
Slightly harder than you might think, you can't do it by the actual card because he could draw a 2nd one. What if it uses a different art work or is foil.
Also just cause they play the card doesn't mean there is no value in remembering it was revealed. Like maybe he played a card that was revealed even if it wasn't the best play to try stop you from having better information.
Slightly harder than you might think, you can't do it by the actual card because he could draw a 2nd one. What if it uses a different art work or is foil.
It's super easy:
eventhandler OnCardPlayed(object playedCard)
{
foreach(revealedCard in RevealedCardsList)
{
if (playedCard.metadata.equals(revealedCard)
{
revealedCard.markAsPlayed();
}
}
}
Also just cause they play the card doesn't mean there is no value in remembering it was revealed. Like maybe he played a card that was revealed even if it wasn't the best play to try stop you from having better information.
You just mark that he played a card that has previously been revealed. Just do something basic like darken the colors on revealed cards if an identical card has been played. You don't need to actually strike it from the list.
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I think it should be. It would save everyone a lot of time.
It makes more sense if you get in a situation where you and your friends want to play friendly games at a reasonably competitive level for playtesting, but simultaneously dont feel like getting out notebooks and wasting pages.
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Being an adult has little to do with it. Most people's lives no longer revolve around pen and paper enough to include it in their everyday carry.
And even if you do have the p&p, playing revealed really does speed up testing when such effects are common; allowing for extra time to discuss what the optimal picks/plays are, or to simply punch out a quicker game (especially PuGs).
The client is pretty bad. If it's not in paper magic, why are they wasting time implementing it instead of refining the fundamentals?
Such as, oh I dunno, being able to see all the cards in my hand? And being able to know who's turn it is just by glancing at the screen? And making it so I don't accidentally skip my first main phase, or both main phases due to holding down F2 for a split second too long or from now knowing who's turn it is? And being SHOWN revealed cards as they are revealed? (That is, after all, what revealed means? Is it not how a game of MtG is played?) Somehow none of these things are important but a revealed zone... oh yea, you just gotta have that.
Second, it does not save time. Every time my opponent reveals cards from the top of their deck I have to dig up the "revealed zone" in order to see them, and then click the X on each individual card in order to dismiss them. It is actually faster to type them down or take a screenshot, or just use your memory, but V4 does not give you a choice.
Also, revealed is NOT A ZONE. If you're gonna make it a zone, why not also make a zone for "cards in your library". (not in their current order of course) That would be a hell of a lot more useful.
I don't need it every day, but I like to be prepared for when I do. I guess it is all relative but I cannot think of an adult I know who would not have paper and a writing device close at hand (might be out in the car if not on their person). Heck, most youth and folks in their 20's are comfortable enough with technology that they will be able to, in moments, jot down a few abbreviated names on a smartphone or tablet app if no pen and paper are handy. It seems odd to me that a person going out of the house would not carry pen, paper, or a smart device, but I guess that is not the case outside my sphere of knowledge. Again, this is just a weird concept for me because it has never occurred, been asked for, or been witnessed by me in the 13 years I have played.
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You misunderstood my post. I meant that I wanted the actual rules of paper MtG to specify that revealed cards stay revealed, specifically so that time is not wasted writing down cards in events. Imagine every Legacy, Modern or Standard player in the world spending 30 seconds to jot down cards every time Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek or Gitaxian Probe is cast. That's a lot of time that could otherwise have been spent playing MtG.
In big events you often have little space. Keeping the cards revealed would effectively be more cards on the battlefield as well as potentially create confusion as to what is in play or not. It might also make the game less enjoyable for the person who is having his hand revealed.
Not saying I am against your idea, I just feel the downsides should be brought to attention.
I guess it might worth it though, since the rule would promote sportsmanship in a way.
But, in V4 client, it does not work how it would in real life if the opponent kept his hand revealed. In V4 you have to keep track of what your opponent plays and then manually check off each card one by one as he plays them. It is in effect no different from keeping track in notepad or taking a screenshot. Some "feature". Even Magic Workstation is able to automate the whole process. I can reveal my hand and the cards stay revealed until I play them. Not that I reveal an Island, and my opponent goes "oh ,he played an Island", draws up the revealed zone, finds an Island, and then closes it. (closes it = click on the X on the top right of the card, like it's a window being closed... it's hilarious) Until he does this, the Island displayed in his "revealed zone" is a duplicate -- that Island doesn't exist. None of the cards in the revealed zone exist. Revealed is not a zone. If the opponent forgets to "close" all the revealed cards as I play them, he may check the revealed zone later and think I still have an Island or whatever in my hand.
i think in all of my years of playing magic i have spent more time waiting for some one to finish shuffling after using fetch lands then i ever have waiting for them to right down my hand after a thoughtseize. adding another zone just to save literally 30 seconds every couple of matches is way over board
If space becomes an issue you can just keep the revealed cards in a stack, like the GY. You and the opponent only need to be able to check revealed cards on demand. There is no requirement to actually have everything laid out separately on the play area. You could also use the lands as a "divider" of sorts to separate revealed cards from cards in play.
I'm fairly sure it won't be a big problem. We already have seen pros playing with cards revealed at the pro tour level, and keeping cards revealed in casual games or playtesting games is fairly common. Frankly I don't see how it would be more annoying than waiting for the opponent to write everything down, then having him check his list and cross off cards every time you play something.
That sounds like shoddy implementation on the part of MTGO.
I don't think the two are comparable. Shuffling the deck is an inherently time consuming task. Keeping track of revealed cards has a convenient shortcut that is already seeing limited use at both the professional and casual level. Adding a rule to that effect simply formalizes this shortcut.
Also, even if they were comparable, I don't understand the logic behind your argument. When you are wasting time in two separate areas of gameplay, the logical response is to stop wasting time in both areas. It makes no sense to use time wasted in one area to justify wasting even more time in another. It's like saying that you might as well do a lot of drunk driving since you're already putting your life at risk with your smoking habit.
A player once tried to obligate me to lay my cards out face down in a particular pattern before the start of each game, so that he could count them more easily. I refused.
J
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Lots of people do this. I always look to see if my opponent does this, and when they do it usually allows me to get a rough idea of how many lands they have, whether they have countermagic, and whether they have a powerful card they really want to resolve.
I think wasting time writing down cards and crossing them out is even sillier, and I cannot understand why people still insist it would be confusing. We aren't speculating on some brand new idea that has never been tried before. We don't need to figure out how it would play out. Many players already do this, and it works just fine.
I was referring to the way you have to manually close the card by clicking on the "x".
If you're already automating the step where you write the card down, why wouldn't you also automate marking the cards that have been played?
playing with revealed hands straight up.
(Probe/Duress)
Slightly harder than you might think, you can't do it by the actual card because he could draw a 2nd one. What if it uses a different art work or is foil.
Also just cause they play the card doesn't mean there is no value in remembering it was revealed. Like maybe he played a card that was revealed even if it wasn't the best play to try stop you from having better information.
It's super easy:
eventhandler OnCardPlayed(object playedCard)
{
foreach(revealedCard in RevealedCardsList)
{
if (playedCard.metadata.equals(revealedCard)
{
revealedCard.markAsPlayed();
}
}
}
You just mark that he played a card that has previously been revealed. Just do something basic like darken the colors on revealed cards if an identical card has been played. You don't need to actually strike it from the list.