So on Sunday I sat down at the shop for a prerelease and when the TO was talking about the rules such as how we can use the promo card but we can't use cards from any previous prereleases he stated a rule I've never heard before: If you would lose the game due to milling you instead shuffle your graveyard and that becomes your new library. I was flabbergasted but another player said that this rule was introduced in the Born of the Gods prerelease (I didn't play in that one) and I didn't want to make waves, so I let it go but has anyone else heard of that rule?
So on Sunday I sat down at the shop for a prerelease and when the TO was talking about the rules such as how we can use the promo card but we can't use cards from any previous prereleases he stated a rule I've never heard before: If you would lose the game due to milling you instead shuffle your graveyard and that becomes your new library. I was flabbergasted but another player said that this rule was introduced in the Born of the Gods prerelease (I didn't play in that one) and I didn't want to make waves, so I let it go but has anyone else heard of that rule?
That's definitely not a real rule. It would have been terrible to introduce at the BNG Prerelease, because Phenax, God of Deception thrives off of winning with mill.
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At regular REL, any house rules are legal. In fact, the TO can just make up anything he wants. Roll with the punches man.
This is completely untrue. All tournaments sanctioned at regular REL must follow the rules set out in the Comprehensive Rules and the Magic Tournament Rules.
Not doing so can be grounds for the removal of a TO's ability to sanction events.
@OP: You should report the TO to Wizards using their Customer Service page found here: http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/ask/p/773
You will need to have (or sign up for) an account in order to lodge the complaint.
At regular REL, any house rules are legal. In fact, the TO can just make up anything he wants. Roll with the punches man.
Whoa, what? I've never heard this, and some quick googling failed to find anything to back it up. Do you have a source?
If it's an unsanctioned event, it's the wild west. I played at a shop like this for a very brief period of time for FNMs, Pre-releases, etc. The last time I went to that shop, I went 3-0-1. The next best record was 3-1. Prizes went to 1st place only, and I was told I was 2nd because draws count as a loss. I then asked for the tiebreakers (since I'd beaten the 3-1 guy), and they looked at me funny like they didn't know what I was talking about. This is the same shop that "banned" Grapeshot because they thought Storm was unbeatable (I really pissed them off when I just showed up with Empty the Warrens instead just to make a point )
The moral of the story: Don't play at shops that don't know what they're doing.
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Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
At regular REL, any house rules are legal. In fact, the TO can just make up anything he wants. Roll with the punches man.
Whoa, what? I've never heard this, and some quick googling failed to find anything to back it up. Do you have a source?
If it's an unsanctioned event, it's the wild west. I played at a shop like this for a very brief period of time for FNMs, Pre-releases, etc. The last time I went to that shop, I went 3-0-1. The next best record was 3-1. Prizes went to 1st place only, and I was told I was 2nd because draws count as a loss. I then asked for the tiebreakers (since I'd beaten the 3-1 guy), and they looked at me funny like they didn't know what I was talking about.
The moral of the story: Don't play at shops that don't know what they're doing.
I wasn't aware that prereleases could ever be unsanctioned. How do they get their sealed product otherwise?
I'm sure unsanctioned tournaments can indeed get messy, but this doesn't seem to be an unsanctioned event based on the original post.
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I wasn't aware that prereleases could ever be unsanctioned. How do they get their sealed product otherwise?
I'm sure unsanctioned tournaments can indeed get messy, but this doesn't seem to be an unsanctioned event based on the original post.
Your guess is as good as mine. I've seen TO's scorekeeping with pen and paper. I've seen prizes being sold rather than distributed to participants. I didn't say any of it was correct, but store owners can breach their contracts as easily as any other business organizations. They can also lose their sanctioning / prize support if reported to Wizards/DCI, but I've never wanted to go that far. I can just avoid a shop rather than threaten someone's livelihood.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
At regular REL, any house rules are legal. In fact, the TO can just make up anything he wants. Roll with the punches man.
Whoa, what? I've never heard this, and some quick googling failed to find anything to back it up. Do you have a source?
If it's an unsanctioned event, it's the wild west. I played at a shop like this for a very brief period of time for FNMs, Pre-releases, etc. The last time I went to that shop, I went 3-0-1. The next best record was 3-1. Prizes went to 1st place only, and I was told I was 2nd because draws count as a loss. I then asked for the tiebreakers (since I'd beaten the 3-1 guy), and they looked at me funny like they didn't know what I was talking about. This is the same shop that "banned" Grapeshot because they thought Storm was unbeatable (I really pissed them off when I just showed up with Empty the Warrens instead just to make a point )
The moral of the story: Don't play at shops that don't know what they're doing.
If an event is run at a REL, then it's sanctioned. You can sanction at casual REL, which is basically anything goes, but almost anything with any kind of WotC support is at least regular.
An 'unsanctioned' prerelease would mean that they either signed up for a prerelease and didn't run it (and used the product for the other event), or they did run it, but implimented their own rules. Both are examples of tournament fraud.
Additionally, a store is not supposed to used the 'FNM' branding unless the event is a sanctioned FNM event. Using it implies that the event is being run at regular REL.
At regular REL, any house rules are legal. In fact, the TO can just make up anything he wants. Roll with the punches man.
This is completely untrue. All tournaments sanctioned at regular REL must follow the rules set out in the Comprehensive Rules and the Magic Tournament Rules.
Not doing so can be grounds for the removal of a TO's ability to sanction events.
@OP: You should report the TO to Wizards using their Customer Service page found here: http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/ask/p/773
You will need to have (or sign up for) an account in order to lodge the complaint.
Thanks, I was almost certain that wasn't a real rule, but as it's the only local store I'm loathe to report them. First I'll speak with the store owner and see how he came about having that rule and see if he's willing to drop it for future pre-releases. I'm suspecting someone was upset about losing to Phenax in the Born of the Gods pre-release and convinced him that there shouldn't be mill in pre-releases.
Thanks, I was almost certain that wasn't a real rule, but as it's the only local store I'm loathe to report them. First I'll speak with the store owner and see how he came about having that rule and see if he's willing to drop it for future pre-releases. I'm suspecting someone was upset about losing to Phenax in the Born of the Gods pre-release and convinced him that there shouldn't be mill in pre-releases.
I know you don't want to be the bad guy, but if you don't work something out with the TO and wizards finds out about this then the store owner can actually get in some pretty serious trouble from things like this. I've seen it happen. If you don't want to report them at the very least try to let the store owner know how serious things like this are.
You're the customer. It's your job to report something if something happens that's not to your satisfaction. That mill rule is complete BS, and I would definitely say something. I'd rather not play at a place with made up rules like that than let it go on, just because there's no other option. When the business loses half its customers because of shady practices, that's a good thing.
"the TO was talking about the rules such as how we can use the promo card but we can't use cards from any previous prereleases"
Can you use the promo card? I was under the impression that this wasn't permitted.
Since Return to Ravnica, the players have been able to use their promo card at the prerelease.
Edit: Though not M14. Only the Block Set Prereleases, which have all had Guild-Specific or Color-Specific Prerelease Packs with a specific promo and a seeded booster.
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As much as I want to believe that WoTC would do something about it, I don't think they would penalize the store. It would dampen their relationship with the LGS and I think they would prioritize that over some "rules" or "complaints".
Hell, in our country, the only distributor of Magic has a monopoly on the market since they are the only source of magic cards(since they are from Hasbro). I will just say there are some pretty shady practices that they are doing like
- withholding the availability of purchase for product A unless you buy a certain amount of boxes of product B
- 2 boxes are needed for buy a box promo instead of 1
- Commander products where only distributed 6 months after they were released. I only got to play my Bant Commander 2013 precon deck after Derevi was banned in Duel Commander.
Sorry if this sound cynical but I reported these practices again and again over the years but nothing came out of it.
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
- H. L. Mencken
As much as I want to believe that WoTC would do something about it, I don't think they would penalize the store. It would dampen their relationship with the LGS and I think they would prioritize that over some "rules" or "complaints".
Trust me, WOTC cares more about the integrity of sanctioned events than they do of one measly LGS that doesn't want to follow the rules.
To the OP: I would inform the store that they are breaking the rules. If they resist, report them to WOTC.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
As much as I want to believe that WoTC would do something about it, I don't think they would penalize the store. It would dampen their relationship with the LGS and I think they would prioritize that over some "rules" or "complaints".
Trust me, WOTC cares more about the integrity of sanctioned events than they do of one measly LGS that doesn't want to follow the rules.
To the OP: I would inform the store that they are breaking the rules. If they resist, report them to WOTC.
I guess if you put it that way, you are correct. I somehow equate sanctioned events and LGS issues as equal in my mind.
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
- H. L. Mencken
Wizards take reports like that very seriously here. My primary shop has a local, far less successful competitor who would falsely report them for various violations (mostly issues relating to tournament fraud). Wizards always investigates those things. It got to the point that our TO would take 10-20 pictures of every event he hosted just to prove they actually happened.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I found out some information from a store employee. It turns out that back in September of 2012 when WOTC was promoting the Magic Game Day celebration there was a no mill rule in place for the pack wars (which to be honest makes sense). Apparently the store owner and TO has been under the impression that this rule is to be enforced at pre-releases as well.
The TO is not an experienced Magic player so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a misunderstanding and hope that when he's informed of the mistake he'll rectify it.
I found out some information from a store employee. It turns out that back in September of 2012 when WOTC was promoting the Magic Game Day celebration there was a no mill rule in place for the pack wars (which to be honest makes sense). Apparently the store owner and TO has been under the impression that this rule is to be enforced at pre-releases as well.
The TO is not an experienced Magic player so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a misunderstanding and hope that when he's informed of the mistake he'll rectify it.
No offense, but how the hell do you guys have a TO that isn't an experienced player? I personally don't know super much about becoming a judge or TO or anything, but I would have thought that these guys in charge of stuff should KNOW their rules and such before going into an event. My TO talks all the time about getting binders full of material he has to read to learn card interactions.
I found out some information from a store employee. It turns out that back in September of 2012 when WOTC was promoting the Magic Game Day celebration there was a no mill rule in place for the pack wars (which to be honest makes sense). Apparently the store owner and TO has been under the impression that this rule is to be enforced at pre-releases as well.
The TO is not an experienced Magic player so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a misunderstanding and hope that when he's informed of the mistake he'll rectify it.
No offense, but how the hell do you guys have a TO that isn't an experienced player? I personally don't know super much about becoming a judge or TO or anything, but I would have thought that these guys in charge of stuff should KNOW their rules and such before going into an event. My TO talks all the time about getting binders full of material he has to read to learn card interactions.
For a small store a lot of times the TO is the owners and to them a lot of times magic is something they just sell. If its a new store they don't realize these things, but will learn as they go.
I found out some information from a store employee. It turns out that back in September of 2012 when WOTC was promoting the Magic Game Day celebration there was a no mill rule in place for the pack wars (which to be honest makes sense). Apparently the store owner and TO has been under the impression that this rule is to be enforced at pre-releases as well.
The TO is not an experienced Magic player so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a misunderstanding and hope that when he's informed of the mistake he'll rectify it.
That seems like a weird leap for him to make, but I think your reasoning is probably correct. Find a way to nicely but authoritatively inform him what the actual rules are and I imagine this will all be history.
That's definitely not a real rule. It would have been terrible to introduce at the BNG Prerelease, because Phenax, God of Deception thrives off of winning with mill.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
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Wrong. Troll warning -Rax
Whoa, what? I've never heard this, and some quick googling failed to find anything to back it up. Do you have a source?
This is completely untrue. All tournaments sanctioned at regular REL must follow the rules set out in the Comprehensive Rules and the Magic Tournament Rules.
Not doing so can be grounds for the removal of a TO's ability to sanction events.
@OP: You should report the TO to Wizards using their Customer Service page found here:
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/ask/p/773
You will need to have (or sign up for) an account in order to lodge the complaint.
If it's an unsanctioned event, it's the wild west. I played at a shop like this for a very brief period of time for FNMs, Pre-releases, etc. The last time I went to that shop, I went 3-0-1. The next best record was 3-1. Prizes went to 1st place only, and I was told I was 2nd because draws count as a loss. I then asked for the tiebreakers (since I'd beaten the 3-1 guy), and they looked at me funny like they didn't know what I was talking about. This is the same shop that "banned" Grapeshot because they thought Storm was unbeatable (I really pissed them off when I just showed up with Empty the Warrens instead just to make a point )
The moral of the story: Don't play at shops that don't know what they're doing.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I wasn't aware that prereleases could ever be unsanctioned. How do they get their sealed product otherwise?
I'm sure unsanctioned tournaments can indeed get messy, but this doesn't seem to be an unsanctioned event based on the original post.
Your guess is as good as mine. I've seen TO's scorekeeping with pen and paper. I've seen prizes being sold rather than distributed to participants. I didn't say any of it was correct, but store owners can breach their contracts as easily as any other business organizations. They can also lose their sanctioning / prize support if reported to Wizards/DCI, but I've never wanted to go that far. I can just avoid a shop rather than threaten someone's livelihood.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
If an event is run at a REL, then it's sanctioned. You can sanction at casual REL, which is basically anything goes, but almost anything with any kind of WotC support is at least regular.
An 'unsanctioned' prerelease would mean that they either signed up for a prerelease and didn't run it (and used the product for the other event), or they did run it, but implimented their own rules. Both are examples of tournament fraud.
Additionally, a store is not supposed to used the 'FNM' branding unless the event is a sanctioned FNM event. Using it implies that the event is being run at regular REL.
Thanks, I was almost certain that wasn't a real rule, but as it's the only local store I'm loathe to report them. First I'll speak with the store owner and see how he came about having that rule and see if he's willing to drop it for future pre-releases. I'm suspecting someone was upset about losing to Phenax in the Born of the Gods pre-release and convinced him that there shouldn't be mill in pre-releases.
I know you don't want to be the bad guy, but if you don't work something out with the TO and wizards finds out about this then the store owner can actually get in some pretty serious trouble from things like this. I've seen it happen. If you don't want to report them at the very least try to let the store owner know how serious things like this are.
Can you use the promo card? I was under the impression that this wasn't permitted.
Since Return to Ravnica, the players have been able to use their promo card at the prerelease.
Edit: Though not M14. Only the Block Set Prereleases, which have all had Guild-Specific or Color-Specific Prerelease Packs with a specific promo and a seeded booster.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Hell, in our country, the only distributor of Magic has a monopoly on the market since they are the only source of magic cards(since they are from Hasbro). I will just say there are some pretty shady practices that they are doing like
- withholding the availability of purchase for product A unless you buy a certain amount of boxes of product B
- 2 boxes are needed for buy a box promo instead of 1
- Commander products where only distributed 6 months after they were released. I only got to play my Bant Commander 2013 precon deck after Derevi was banned in Duel Commander.
Sorry if this sound cynical but I reported these practices again and again over the years but nothing came out of it.
- H. L. Mencken
French Duel Commander
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer RUG
Trust me, WOTC cares more about the integrity of sanctioned events than they do of one measly LGS that doesn't want to follow the rules.
To the OP: I would inform the store that they are breaking the rules. If they resist, report them to WOTC.
I guess if you put it that way, you are correct. I somehow equate sanctioned events and LGS issues as equal in my mind.
- H. L. Mencken
French Duel Commander
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer RUG
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
The TO is not an experienced Magic player so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a misunderstanding and hope that when he's informed of the mistake he'll rectify it.
No offense, but how the hell do you guys have a TO that isn't an experienced player? I personally don't know super much about becoming a judge or TO or anything, but I would have thought that these guys in charge of stuff should KNOW their rules and such before going into an event. My TO talks all the time about getting binders full of material he has to read to learn card interactions.
For a small store a lot of times the TO is the owners and to them a lot of times magic is something they just sell. If its a new store they don't realize these things, but will learn as they go.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
That seems like a weird leap for him to make, but I think your reasoning is probably correct. Find a way to nicely but authoritatively inform him what the actual rules are and I imagine this will all be history.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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