So today I built a standard combo deck that uses primarily blue with a splash of black and green for U/B and U/G multicolored cards. Every spell in the deck has blue.
My son and I decided to play a game before he went to bed so I quickly sleeved up and got ready to play. I have a few JOU proxies and the whole time I was printing it out I was explaining to him the combo why certain cards are important and whatever else came up.
Before we start the game he goes in his room for a minute and comes out with some cards (he is playing some simic deck he recently built) I ask him what the cards are for and he says he is sideboarding....ok.
We start the match and sure enough turn 2 he drops a skylasher and the next few turns begins to make it bigger, I cant touch this card with anything in my deck. Later in the game I start to get a few cards into my combo and he pops off 2 gainsay in a row. He beats me shortly afterwards.
After the match I told him it seemed like a cheap shot for him to go an get cards specifically to board in right after i got done showing him what its all about. I was thinking after this that maybe we should have a house rule where as if one person doesnt have a sideboard that neither person should do it, especially game one.
So what do you guys think? He beat me and im not saying he cheated, it just seemed like bad sportsmanship the way it went down.
EDIT: I didnt have a sideboard yet because I literally just finished putting the main deck together.
If this was some random person at a LGS, I would tell you to suck it up. But you think your Son is a bad sport? I don't even know what to tell you. Raise him better? And maybe next time, if you want to win, don't explain how your deck works before you play someone. If anything, you should be patting your kid on the head for figuring out, "oh, he's playing all blue...I'll play Pro-Blue". MUD is a deck. People mainboard Skylasher.
I've seen all kinds of validation threads here. Was this mean? Was this wrong to do? etc. But you need to seek validation for your parenting here? You don't even provide enough details - how old is your son? If he is young maybe he didn't understand, if he's older then maybe he was joking around and either way you should just play again fairly. Maybe they thought it was even clever or funny. So let me ask you: is something this minor, at home, in a casual game bad sportsmanship? If your son was cheating at the LGS, or being really mean-spirited (I honestly can't tell from your writing), or cheating at a bigger event I might be inclined to say it is bad sportsmanship, but it sounds absolutely harmless.
A few things:
Sideboarding is not generally allowed for game 1. The way sideboarding works is that you can have 15 cards that are part of your deck, but not your maindeck. In between the games of a match, you may exchange these cards with cards in your maindeck, and the changes have to be reverted after the match is over
Now, that's how Sideboarding is handled in a tournament situation. There are different ways to handle it when it comes to casual play.
When my brother was my main opponent for many years, and we'd play casual single games, not matches, we had sort of an unspoken house rule that nothing could be in a maindeck that existed just to fight a specific other deck, with no other function. Cards that were better in certain matchups (i.e. White Knight against Black decks or Skylasher against Blue) are fine, but cards that have no purpose except against decks they're hosing (i.e. Circle of Protection Black or Gainsay) are not.
When it comes to practicing for tournaments, players will generally play games both sideboarded and unsideboarded, to get a feel for how the matchup is in both cases.
It does seem like particularly poor taste that your son tailored his deck just before the game so it would be better against the new deck you just showed him, for the purposes of beating you at a single casual game. I'd recommend talking to him.
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I know MUD is a thing Quacker. My son is a great MTG player, especially for his age (11). I was just taken aback that he would go and get cards that werent originally in his sideboard to win. He definetly got the right cards thats for sure lol. And no twin im not looking for validation in my parenting, thats far from it. I was just wondering how other people would feel if they got all excited about a new deck with their friends/kids etc, and then that person went out of their way to rebuild a hate deck against it.
I think its great my son not only has the right cards but also know exactly how to use them. This has nothing to do with how im raising my son people.
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Thank you wildfire. I think I will take that advice and propose those house rules to him. We play loads of casual together in between FNMs but this kind of thing has never happened. I very much appreciate your input.
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To keep the pain to a minimum it's always best to never use side boards in casual play. Let the decks face each other as they are. Our group uses a rule of thumb that we can add any cards to our decks that we want as long as those cards are hateful to any deck.
When I play with my brother, we will specifically state before we play that we will play some number of pre-sideboard games and then some number of sideboarded games. That way, we can really test one deck against another and test the effectiveness of each sideboard in a certain matchup. Prevents this type of thing from happening.
When i play against all of my friends in my sideboard, i usually have the same few decks that i've built. My main deck, my girlfriend's main deck, and two decks i made for my friends, have all been great decks and stood the test of time. The rest i will swap out and make new decks with, so i don't end up with fifty decks all sleeved and boxed. I usually sit around 7. 4-5 that stay together always, and 2-3 that rotate into different decks.
This is important because a lot of the time, my friends will build decks and will tell me "this deck is made specifically to beat you X deck." And i'll say ok, bring it on. Usually i crush the decks, because they are made with one or two protection cards, maybe one or two hose cards, but never any specific meta. So, if they build a deck, with fighting a deck in mind, i don't think that's bad.
If they build a deck that they know you run monoblue, and they go grab some boils, that's just mean. Of course that deck is going to beat your deck. Now, i wouldn't punish the kid for it. But i would say to him, "hey, play me a real game with your deck the way you actually run it. It was no fun playing you when you the other way." And he should be willing to. If not, explain to him why that is bad sportsmanship (because it kinda is in a casual game.)
As a side note, your kid is good at magic for his age for being able to do that. I've been trying to teach my 19 year old girlfriend how to use counterspells for 2 years. She still second guesses herself when i cancel her, and asks me to make sure the spell goes to her graveyard.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
Just explain to him that the purpose of playtesting is not to win - it's to get experience with the deck, see how it functions in different situations etc.
I wouldn't call it bad sportsmanship but it certainly isn't helping you improve your deck that he sideboards before the first game.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
Maybe it might be a good idea to establish a house rule that you can't sideboard (or change the existing contents of your deck just because you know what the other guy is playing) prior to at least playing one game?
I'm not sure if you and you're son have been playing at tournaments but you can justify this by saying that in actual tourneys, you can't "pre-sideboard" against your opponents even if you know what their decks are.
I'm guessing that your son just wanted to win against you (especially after seeing what your deck was he knew exactly what he needed to place in his deck) but as you mentioned, wow that's really good initiative for him to know what cards to put in against you.
He should have played you with his 75. When you put a deck together, you should at least have a temporary sideboard. More than 50% of all games are played sideboarded. Also you can "tell him" about your new deck as you are playing it and probably in advance was not a good idea (as we all saw). The problem I see with this is that he may do something similar at FNM. He may have more than 15 cards in his SB or do something else that is basically cheating.
Now if he's doing this to crush the idea that your self-created deck will never make it at FNM or whatever, then he may have actually done you a favor. Stick to Mono Black!
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Anyone who has actually had an 11 year old son play against them in Magic will tell you this is age appropriate behavior and quite normal. Getting mad isn't helpful, nor is insulting the child. The thing to do is to have a talk and explain why that is bad form. He will get the message.
As a side note, your kid is good at magic for his age for being able to do that.
He might be good at magic but he is not a good magic player.
What he has done is unfair. Basically he won even before the game actually started.
In my opinion, that's 100%bad sportsmanship. Would you allow someone to use a bike into a running contest? Just because he knows that eveyone else will run and he is just SO smart, so he will bring a bike and easily outplay them.
Not saying anything about him but I think that he has a lesson to learn. He basically cheated, he manipulated his deck according to yours. He destroyed the fun of the game, just because he built up a deck just in order to beat you, so you had small to no chance to win. And this is really sad, because it doesn't help him growing up as a good magic player nor it teaches him how to be a fair guy.
Imagine: I am playing goblin against a white player that plays (just sayin') Kithkins. He says "OH YOU PLAY GOBLIN WAIT A SEC I'LL BE BACK IN NO TIME".
The game begins and I am being crushed by Tivadar of Thorn and Tivadar's Crusade. Sure, he won. Sure that move was really "Smart" (but in a bad way, hope you see my point). But is a table kitchen game. The point is having fun. Maybe facing a bit of a challenge. But in the end we played a game that was not supposed to be played, cause my opponent just won in the "smart" way even before the game started.
Does he feel good? Do I feel good?
Both the answers should be "NO". And I hope that they are even in your case.
....No. Bringing a bike to a foot race is cheating. Bringing a motorcycle to a generic two wheeled vehicle race is perfectly legal. Even if everyone else is bringing bikes.
He didn't use any illegal magic cards. He didn't make any illegal moves. He didn't do anything against the rules of magic. The only way to cheat is to go against the rules of magic, and he was well within the confines of the rules. Those cards were printed to be used, so he used them.
If someone tells me the specific deck they are playing, and we are competing, then i can use whatever cards i want that fit in my deck. If that helps me beat him, even better.
Now, it was bad sportsmanship, don't get me wrong. He went out of his way to meta a deck, in casual play. That totally cuts down on the fun of the game. But it is another level entirely to call the kid a cheater. Nobody should feel good after the game. No one can really say they won or lost on their own merits. but no one cheated, and it is not fair to call them a cheater for it.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
Some of you are taking this too far. It's a casual game and we don't know the situation. I know if someone went on and on about their deck before we played and it was purely casual, I might dig around for some hoser cards to slip in there for the lols. If we're practicing for a tournament, then I definitely don't pre-sideboard.
It's not cheating in casual. It's not something you should do to strangers or at a tournament. But in the family? Come on! Plus it's not even like the kid tried to hide that he was sideboarding. The OP should have been a Father and told him not to do that if he didn't want him to do that. Otherwise, he should have known what was coming.
To keep the pain to a minimum it's always best to never use side boards in casual play. Let the decks face each other as they are. Our group uses a rule of thumb that we can add any cards to our decks that we want as long as those cards are hateful to any deck.
This is silly. Some mediocre decks can be very nearly unbeatable game 1 for some decks, but are fine matchups post-board. Anyway, your son played cheaply. You should have said no.
Sideboarding isn't possible before game 1, so you should explain to him that sideboarding in cards that are strong against your deck should not have been done until after you had played at least once.
You shouldnt be sideboarding at all before game 1. game 2 you should be swapping cards. even when i just play casualy with my friend we don't sb. we do go hmm what would i want to put in or what should i take out. you should have played preboard then you should have gone hmm i need a way around skylasher maybe cyclonic rift and your son should have acknowledged hmm skylasher and gainsay would be a good substitutions for game 2 which is what would have happened at an event
A side board should be 15 cards only, chosen before you start the match. It sounds like your son was using his entire collection as fair game for siding in?
Ask your son what 15 cards he would want access to going into a tournament. Discuss with him the soundness of a devoted side board for just one deck. You might have fun tricking him by showing him one deck but sneakily playing a different deck - this would illustrate the need for a balanced board and why we don't run SB cards main (aka, game one).
Also, this is your son, not just another opponent. Focus on teaching him MTG and life values. Don't be overly competitive with him (a little friendly competition is fine).
I was just wondering how other people would feel if they got all excited about a new deck with their friends/kids etc, and then that person went out of their way to rebuild a hate deck against it.
I'd think my opponent was being immature. Big difference if it's my preteen child or if it's one of my peers.
^^^That's a tournament rule, Chris. The kid wasn't playing a tournament and didn't technically side-board. He tweaked his deck in preparation for some casual games. That is all.
I appreciate all the positive responses folks. I wasnt sure if I would get any after the first 2 replys. Anyway as an update we sat down before our daily games and talked about what happened. We agreed that we wouldnt sideboard in game one. Or get cards that arent in the sideboard just to specifically rip apart someones deck.
As a side note we have been playing together for about 2 years and we go to standard tournaments weekly. So between tournaments we practice with each other. He is a very honest and great contender at the tournaments and I dont believe he was cheating (as some of you said) when we were getting ready for our match, that is quite a steep claim. While it was game 1 he told me he was side boarding and I did say "ok" so part of the blame is my own.
Regardless we have adopted a new house rule and have continued playing as usual.
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He knows exactly what hate cards are aether, which is why he got exactly what he needed. We did discuss when it is appropriate to use them. I am proud of him when I see him make smart plays, it is really fun to share this hobby with him and then watch as he climbs the ladder at a tournament and walks home with packs as he beat opponents who were much older. The look on some of their faces is priceless. We just hit a bit of a speed bump in our games at home but it has been resolved.
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Just explain to him that the purpose of playtesting is not to win - it's to get experience with the deck, see how it functions in different situations etc.
OP learned how his deck functions against a deck with blue hate.
The kid said he was sideboarding, he made no secret of it.
This isn't an issue of sportsmanship, it's an issue of what you and he want to get from your home games. Next time you play, establish ahead of time whether you want to "playtest" vs a normally made up deck or whether you want to do something else.
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My son and I decided to play a game before he went to bed so I quickly sleeved up and got ready to play. I have a few JOU proxies and the whole time I was printing it out I was explaining to him the combo why certain cards are important and whatever else came up.
Before we start the game he goes in his room for a minute and comes out with some cards (he is playing some simic deck he recently built) I ask him what the cards are for and he says he is sideboarding....ok.
We start the match and sure enough turn 2 he drops a skylasher and the next few turns begins to make it bigger, I cant touch this card with anything in my deck. Later in the game I start to get a few cards into my combo and he pops off 2 gainsay in a row. He beats me shortly afterwards.
After the match I told him it seemed like a cheap shot for him to go an get cards specifically to board in right after i got done showing him what its all about. I was thinking after this that maybe we should have a house rule where as if one person doesnt have a sideboard that neither person should do it, especially game one.
So what do you guys think? He beat me and im not saying he cheated, it just seemed like bad sportsmanship the way it went down.
EDIT: I didnt have a sideboard yet because I literally just finished putting the main deck together.
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Sideboarding is not generally allowed for game 1. The way sideboarding works is that you can have 15 cards that are part of your deck, but not your maindeck. In between the games of a match, you may exchange these cards with cards in your maindeck, and the changes have to be reverted after the match is over
Now, that's how Sideboarding is handled in a tournament situation. There are different ways to handle it when it comes to casual play.
When my brother was my main opponent for many years, and we'd play casual single games, not matches, we had sort of an unspoken house rule that nothing could be in a maindeck that existed just to fight a specific other deck, with no other function. Cards that were better in certain matchups (i.e. White Knight against Black decks or Skylasher against Blue) are fine, but cards that have no purpose except against decks they're hosing (i.e. Circle of Protection Black or Gainsay) are not.
When it comes to practicing for tournaments, players will generally play games both sideboarded and unsideboarded, to get a feel for how the matchup is in both cases.
It does seem like particularly poor taste that your son tailored his deck just before the game so it would be better against the new deck you just showed him, for the purposes of beating you at a single casual game. I'd recommend talking to him.
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I think its great my son not only has the right cards but also know exactly how to use them. This has nothing to do with how im raising my son people.
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This is important because a lot of the time, my friends will build decks and will tell me "this deck is made specifically to beat you X deck." And i'll say ok, bring it on. Usually i crush the decks, because they are made with one or two protection cards, maybe one or two hose cards, but never any specific meta. So, if they build a deck, with fighting a deck in mind, i don't think that's bad.
If they build a deck that they know you run monoblue, and they go grab some boils, that's just mean. Of course that deck is going to beat your deck. Now, i wouldn't punish the kid for it. But i would say to him, "hey, play me a real game with your deck the way you actually run it. It was no fun playing you when you the other way." And he should be willing to. If not, explain to him why that is bad sportsmanship (because it kinda is in a casual game.)
As a side note, your kid is good at magic for his age for being able to do that. I've been trying to teach my 19 year old girlfriend how to use counterspells for 2 years. She still second guesses herself when i cancel her, and asks me to make sure the spell goes to her graveyard.
I wouldn't call it bad sportsmanship but it certainly isn't helping you improve your deck that he sideboards before the first game.
I'm not sure if you and you're son have been playing at tournaments but you can justify this by saying that in actual tourneys, you can't "pre-sideboard" against your opponents even if you know what their decks are.
I'm guessing that your son just wanted to win against you (especially after seeing what your deck was he knew exactly what he needed to place in his deck) but as you mentioned, wow that's really good initiative for him to know what cards to put in against you.
Now if he's doing this to crush the idea that your self-created deck will never make it at FNM or whatever, then he may have actually done you a favor. Stick to Mono Black!
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)....No. Bringing a bike to a foot race is cheating. Bringing a motorcycle to a generic two wheeled vehicle race is perfectly legal. Even if everyone else is bringing bikes.
He didn't use any illegal magic cards. He didn't make any illegal moves. He didn't do anything against the rules of magic. The only way to cheat is to go against the rules of magic, and he was well within the confines of the rules. Those cards were printed to be used, so he used them.
If someone tells me the specific deck they are playing, and we are competing, then i can use whatever cards i want that fit in my deck. If that helps me beat him, even better.
Now, it was bad sportsmanship, don't get me wrong. He went out of his way to meta a deck, in casual play. That totally cuts down on the fun of the game. But it is another level entirely to call the kid a cheater. Nobody should feel good after the game. No one can really say they won or lost on their own merits. but no one cheated, and it is not fair to call them a cheater for it.
It's not cheating in casual. It's not something you should do to strangers or at a tournament. But in the family? Come on! Plus it's not even like the kid tried to hide that he was sideboarding. The OP should have been a Father and told him not to do that if he didn't want him to do that. Otherwise, he should have known what was coming.
This is silly. Some mediocre decks can be very nearly unbeatable game 1 for some decks, but are fine matchups post-board. Anyway, your son played cheaply. You should have said no.
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Ask your son what 15 cards he would want access to going into a tournament. Discuss with him the soundness of a devoted side board for just one deck. You might have fun tricking him by showing him one deck but sneakily playing a different deck - this would illustrate the need for a balanced board and why we don't run SB cards main (aka, game one).
Also, this is your son, not just another opponent. Focus on teaching him MTG and life values. Don't be overly competitive with him (a little friendly competition is fine).
I'd think my opponent was being immature. Big difference if it's my preteen child or if it's one of my peers.
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As a side note we have been playing together for about 2 years and we go to standard tournaments weekly. So between tournaments we practice with each other. He is a very honest and great contender at the tournaments and I dont believe he was cheating (as some of you said) when we were getting ready for our match, that is quite a steep claim. While it was game 1 he told me he was side boarding and I did say "ok" so part of the blame is my own.
Regardless we have adopted a new house rule and have continued playing as usual.
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You don't carry around a playset of Acid Rain to play against him every time do you?
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Bad parenting? Definitely.
OP learned how his deck functions against a deck with blue hate.
The kid said he was sideboarding, he made no secret of it.
This isn't an issue of sportsmanship, it's an issue of what you and he want to get from your home games. Next time you play, establish ahead of time whether you want to "playtest" vs a normally made up deck or whether you want to do something else.