I've been playing James Fazzolari's Boros Burn Standard deck for a while now, and have seen it evolve to an interesting deck. I love the archtype and enjoy burning people out, but I have identified my weak points and decided to reach out to fellow gamers to help solidify my tactics.
As far as my current deck list goes, I tried Zem's recent updated list for Boros Burn--that is adding the Young Pyromancers, Temple of Silence/Malice build, and I did horrible with it at a $500 free event last Friday.
I've kept up to date with the changes and have read all of Fazzolari's analyses, and while they do give a huge understanding of how the deck works, I still have a hard time against GR/Jund Monsters, Junk Midrange, and even Mono Red Devotion kicks my ass.
My real question regards with strategies and tactics to take down these problematic decks. I know that strategies are extremely conditional based on board-state, but any help and advice would be great. Below is the deck list I played, as well as other cards I can add in for a more viable build.
My hardest match ups were GR Monsters, and most of the reasons I lost to them was due to Xenagod. Sure when Xenagod is turned on I can chain his ass, but otherwise I had to race it or chump block with my Young Pyromancer tokens. Interestingly enough the Pyromancers really did trip me up, as I didn't really have enough time to play test the deck before I made the alterations --the event itself was the playtest--and I faced no Mono-Black action to warrant Assemble the Legion.
Both times I played GR Monsters, Xenagod was extremely relevant. I paid attention to Zem's Deck Tech which basically says you either burn your opponent out while building up a creature base with Elemental tokens, or your burn your opponents creatures out to get in with your own tokens for recurring damage. This is a good theory, but Domri Rade puts a serious kink in that plan.
Below is a list of strategies I've come across for taking on Monsters:
Also I need to identify the "nuts" hand against Jund/GR Monsters as well. Often times I'll see my colored sources and a Helix, so I keep it, only to find out it was a bad idea.
I want to try to use Firedancer Satyrs against Monsters, however a lot of the creatures are higher toughness so I might have to two-for-one...but Searing Blood makes up for that quite well. Domri is a big kink in that plan though, as I'd have to turn 4 the Firedancer to get some value with a Boros Charm or Searing Blood.
Right now I have a lot of the Boros Burn staples sitting around, so I can toss these in:
My current permutation involves cutting one Phoenix and one Ash Zealot to throw in 2 Firedancer Satyrs, but really it doesn't hit anything other than like Stormbreath Dragon or Courser. Domri, Courser, Poly-K and Xenagod are hard to deal with, especially if your opponent is running Jund Monsters with Abrupt Decays and Dreadbores.
Thanks for your help and I know enough to ask for assistance when I consistently get my ass kicked by this deck time and time again!
I want to preface this by saying that I haven't played Boros Burn personally, but I have played against it. I do play a lot of Rakdos Aggro and have been doing so for months. I find that my matchup against Monsters or any Midrange deck is surprisingly easy to win.
My points of advice for Monsters (this also largely applies to any Midrange deck):
1. You need more sources of quick damage. Ash Zealot is wonderful here (and it makes Domri worse from their side). They aren't the fastest deck, so you MUST be able to knock down their life total into Burn range before they stabilize with creatures.
2. Burn out early mana dorks! Do not let them accelerate if you can help it. Having access to Anger of the Gods in the sideboard might sound crazy, but its nice in this matchup.
3. At best, Young Pyromancer is a chump-blocker generator in this matchup, IF he survives at all. Unless they stumble, he won't help.
4. The nut draw is probably something like: Temple, Mountain, Mutavault, Ash Zealot, Chandra's Phoenix, Magma Jet, and X. Provides early damage, Scry, and removal.
5. Not sure how good Chained to the Rocks is as it doesn't really further your game plan. My inclination would be to replace it with a card that does further your plan: Stormbreath Dragon. Hasted damage that goes over the top and requires them to have instant-speed removal. Think Boros Charm 5-7 that can also block if needed.
6. Against Xenagod, you have to race him. Waiting for him to become a creature so you can Chain him is a losing battle. See points above - you need more quick damage!
I don't really have much advice against Mono-Red Devotion as I have little experience with it. I would guess that Anger of the Gods would come in handy and digging for Warleader's Helix is a big help.
You have to kill their Mystics (easy) and Carytids (hard for you). Young Pyromancer 'seems' good vs Monsters, but Ash Zealot can actually do much more damage (first strike + Lightning Strike takes down anything in the deck except of course Carytid).
You also have to draw/play Phoenix's before their Stormbreaths/Domri fights happen. Also they can't draw double Courser or you just lose and Scavenging Ooze is rough if they exile your Phoenix.
I came in here to say that you can't always have a positive matchup vs. every deck. Or else your deck would be Caw Blade.
I think you know what you're doing from the post and you are using an amazing player's list and one I trust very much, so I think you're on the right track. Like the others have said, you need to put them on the ropes before they can start casting their X/5s and X/4s. Also, heaven forbid they draw into a source of continuing life gain like Saint said. As a Monsters player who has played against Burn, it can be tough when they attack an Ash Zealot into my Polukranos because I surely know that they have Lightning Strike or are bluffing me hard. If I am too low on life, I have to block anyway, so pay attention to the life situation. Don't bluff if they have to block no matter what. Phoenixes are tough because of their flying and their ability to come back. I think you just need a strong quick hand and Young Pyromancer doesn't seem great against them.
Although I have never played Jund Monsters, I would think that the matchup would be slightly easier for you due to the fact that they have so many nonbasic lands and must play at least 1 Shockland untapped, making them start the game at 18 life. Temples also may give them card quality, but it could occasionally time walk them in a match vs. your quick deck. I would guess that 18 is much easier than 20, although I don't know if they have an advantage from the 3rd color (I'm talking about specifically in the Burn matchup). I would say keep doing what you're doing. You ran into some tough matchups unfortunately. Also, find a way to ask Zemanjaski (James' name here) as only he could probably give the best advice.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Great point about bluffing! But, to remove the -EV from the bluff, I think you should also mix up your attacks when the guy is at low life. That way he doesn't catch onto you and get a good fix on your tell.
But, in general, I would attack with Ash Zealot about 95% (even into one big blocker) because if you don't you're losing the best part of Ash Zealots value.
//all might be pointless, but I think people switched to Ash Zealot because he does get alot of 'free'/bluffed damage in, whereas I block Young Pyromancer 100% of the time, or he just sits at home.
I am also a Boros Burn player, and the Monsters match-up is definitely not a free win for the deck. Zem has said that his stock list has a slightly unfavorable match-up against it.
Personally I am a big fan of running the full four Chained to the Rocks maindeck. The idea is that they are better than Shock against the Monster decks, almost as good as shock against the swarm decks, and only terrible vs Revelation decks. However, the match-up vs Revelation decks is so ridiculously lopsided in favor of burn that I am willing to give up a few points there and shore up my worse match-ups (I do make it up a bit by running 24 lands in the main, with 4 Mutavaults).
Post-board, I am still on the Spark Trooper + Blind Obedience plan against monsters. I just try to race them as well as I can, and about half the time it works. Xenagod has not been a particular issue for me because he costs five mana and does not threaten me until the creature getting his bonus gets trample. Usually Stormbreath Dragon is a bigger to me (unless I have Obedience out and a Mortars to answer it right away). Plus, Monster decks only run one or two copies of Xenagod. With the match-up being a race they might not ever draw it. I don't think it's worth running answers just for him.
After Journey hits, things might change. Perhaps the biggest impact on Burn is actually the printing of a two-mana hexproof creature. As Zem's articles reveal, hexproof is something of a miserable match-up for burn and this new guy could put the deck over the top. The good news is that Burn also gets access to Mana Confluence. With the possibility of going to 12 white sources in the deck, Celestial Flare out of the sideboard might not be such a bad idea. It would primarily be there to fight hexproof decks but they could come in against Monsters too.
BlOb helps, a lot. Also they have little lifegain, and if you can burn there t1 mystic and just race them you are golden. I find that T2 satyr firedancer helps a lot as they have few, if any removal and you can start dual casting burn to the face by turn 3. 2 from shock + 3 from anything else in the deck does a lot towards killing their slew of threats.
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Standard
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
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I've been playing James Fazzolari's Boros Burn Standard deck for a while now, and have seen it evolve to an interesting deck. I love the archtype and enjoy burning people out, but I have identified my weak points and decided to reach out to fellow gamers to help solidify my tactics.
As far as my current deck list goes, I tried Zem's recent updated list for Boros Burn--that is adding the Young Pyromancers, Temple of Silence/Malice build, and I did horrible with it at a $500 free event last Friday.
I've kept up to date with the changes and have read all of Fazzolari's analyses, and while they do give a huge understanding of how the deck works, I still have a hard time against GR/Jund Monsters, Junk Midrange, and even Mono Red Devotion kicks my ass.
My real question regards with strategies and tactics to take down these problematic decks. I know that strategies are extremely conditional based on board-state, but any help and advice would be great. Below is the deck list I played, as well as other cards I can add in for a more viable build.
Lands
Creatures
Noncreature Spells
Sideboard
My hardest match ups were GR Monsters, and most of the reasons I lost to them was due to Xenagod. Sure when Xenagod is turned on I can chain his ass, but otherwise I had to race it or chump block with my Young Pyromancer tokens. Interestingly enough the Pyromancers really did trip me up, as I didn't really have enough time to play test the deck before I made the alterations --the event itself was the playtest--and I faced no Mono-Black action to warrant Assemble the Legion.
Both times I played GR Monsters, Xenagod was extremely relevant. I paid attention to Zem's Deck Tech which basically says you either burn your opponent out while building up a creature base with Elemental tokens, or your burn your opponents creatures out to get in with your own tokens for recurring damage. This is a good theory, but Domri Rade puts a serious kink in that plan.
Below is a list of strategies I've come across for taking on Monsters:
1. Turn-1 Shock targeting Elvish Mystic to prevent Turn 3 Domri Rade
2. Chain Targets:
Courser of Kruphix
Polukranos, World Eater
Xenagod
3. Burning Earth for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx/non-basics?
4. Burn Race?
5. Chump Block with Tokens/Mutavault
Also I need to identify the "nuts" hand against Jund/GR Monsters as well. Often times I'll see my colored sources and a Helix, so I keep it, only to find out it was a bad idea.
I want to try to use Firedancer Satyrs against Monsters, however a lot of the creatures are higher toughness so I might have to two-for-one...but Searing Blood makes up for that quite well. Domri is a big kink in that plan though, as I'd have to turn 4 the Firedancer to get some value with a Boros Charm or Searing Blood.
Right now I have a lot of the Boros Burn staples sitting around, so I can toss these in:
My current permutation involves cutting one Phoenix and one Ash Zealot to throw in 2 Firedancer Satyrs, but really it doesn't hit anything other than like Stormbreath Dragon or Courser. Domri, Courser, Poly-K and Xenagod are hard to deal with, especially if your opponent is running Jund Monsters with Abrupt Decays and Dreadbores.
Thanks for your help and I know enough to ask for assistance when I consistently get my ass kicked by this deck time and time again!
My points of advice for Monsters (this also largely applies to any Midrange deck):
1. You need more sources of quick damage. Ash Zealot is wonderful here (and it makes Domri worse from their side). They aren't the fastest deck, so you MUST be able to knock down their life total into Burn range before they stabilize with creatures.
2. Burn out early mana dorks! Do not let them accelerate if you can help it. Having access to Anger of the Gods in the sideboard might sound crazy, but its nice in this matchup.
3. At best, Young Pyromancer is a chump-blocker generator in this matchup, IF he survives at all. Unless they stumble, he won't help.
4. The nut draw is probably something like: Temple, Mountain, Mutavault, Ash Zealot, Chandra's Phoenix, Magma Jet, and X. Provides early damage, Scry, and removal.
5. Not sure how good Chained to the Rocks is as it doesn't really further your game plan. My inclination would be to replace it with a card that does further your plan: Stormbreath Dragon. Hasted damage that goes over the top and requires them to have instant-speed removal. Think Boros Charm 5-7 that can also block if needed.
6. Against Xenagod, you have to race him. Waiting for him to become a creature so you can Chain him is a losing battle. See points above - you need more quick damage!
I don't really have much advice against Mono-Red Devotion as I have little experience with it. I would guess that Anger of the Gods would come in handy and digging for Warleader's Helix is a big help.
Hope this helps a little.
You also have to draw/play Phoenix's before their Stormbreaths/Domri fights happen. Also they can't draw double Courser or you just lose and Scavenging Ooze is rough if they exile your Phoenix.
I think you know what you're doing from the post and you are using an amazing player's list and one I trust very much, so I think you're on the right track. Like the others have said, you need to put them on the ropes before they can start casting their X/5s and X/4s. Also, heaven forbid they draw into a source of continuing life gain like Saint said. As a Monsters player who has played against Burn, it can be tough when they attack an Ash Zealot into my Polukranos because I surely know that they have Lightning Strike or are bluffing me hard. If I am too low on life, I have to block anyway, so pay attention to the life situation. Don't bluff if they have to block no matter what. Phoenixes are tough because of their flying and their ability to come back. I think you just need a strong quick hand and Young Pyromancer doesn't seem great against them.
Although I have never played Jund Monsters, I would think that the matchup would be slightly easier for you due to the fact that they have so many nonbasic lands and must play at least 1 Shockland untapped, making them start the game at 18 life. Temples also may give them card quality, but it could occasionally time walk them in a match vs. your quick deck. I would guess that 18 is much easier than 20, although I don't know if they have an advantage from the 3rd color (I'm talking about specifically in the Burn matchup). I would say keep doing what you're doing. You ran into some tough matchups unfortunately. Also, find a way to ask Zemanjaski (James' name here) as only he could probably give the best advice.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)But, in general, I would attack with Ash Zealot about 95% (even into one big blocker) because if you don't you're losing the best part of Ash Zealots value.
//all might be pointless, but I think people switched to Ash Zealot because he does get alot of 'free'/bluffed damage in, whereas I block Young Pyromancer 100% of the time, or he just sits at home.
Personally I am a big fan of running the full four Chained to the Rocks maindeck. The idea is that they are better than Shock against the Monster decks, almost as good as shock against the swarm decks, and only terrible vs Revelation decks. However, the match-up vs Revelation decks is so ridiculously lopsided in favor of burn that I am willing to give up a few points there and shore up my worse match-ups (I do make it up a bit by running 24 lands in the main, with 4 Mutavaults).
Post-board, I am still on the Spark Trooper + Blind Obedience plan against monsters. I just try to race them as well as I can, and about half the time it works. Xenagod has not been a particular issue for me because he costs five mana and does not threaten me until the creature getting his bonus gets trample. Usually Stormbreath Dragon is a bigger to me (unless I have Obedience out and a Mortars to answer it right away). Plus, Monster decks only run one or two copies of Xenagod. With the match-up being a race they might not ever draw it. I don't think it's worth running answers just for him.
After Journey hits, things might change. Perhaps the biggest impact on Burn is actually the printing of a two-mana hexproof creature. As Zem's articles reveal, hexproof is something of a miserable match-up for burn and this new guy could put the deck over the top. The good news is that Burn also gets access to Mana Confluence. With the possibility of going to 12 white sources in the deck, Celestial Flare out of the sideboard might not be such a bad idea. It would primarily be there to fight hexproof decks but they could come in against Monsters too.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect