Lots of talk about legacy masters and how it would be high-risk, low-reward. I don't think that's true. ABUR duals aside, there are a very small number of reserved list cards that are high-dollar legacy staples, and most of them are either in fringe decks, are in decks that can function quite effectively without them, or are fine as a 1-of. These are cards like the tabernacle at pendrell vale, the abyss, chains of Mephistopheles, gaea's cradle, city of traitors, moat, lion's eye diamond, and some others I'm not thinking of. While I'd love to see these all printed again, I think legacy can thrive without seeing them again. The biggest loss would probably be LED, but even then a lot of decks like dredge are very playable without it. So, here is my proposed strategy:
1) Legendary fetchable duals. I know, it's not original. I agree they don't belong in modern. The best place for these is in Commander pre-cons. While this might initially cause those precons to be sold well above MSRP, if a clear message was sent from Wizards that the precons will be large print runs (like the 2013 ones), and that legendary duals will be in every run, the prices will remain reasonable. Also, people don't need a playset. This would make both aspiring legacy players and commander players very happy while retaining the value of the original duals. I know from experience that 1 dual plus shocklands to fill in the gaps is very playable in legacy.
2) Legacy masters. Just stick to non-reserved list cards. Force of will, wasteland, JTMS, stoneforge mystic, sinkhole, jitte, karakas, rishadan port, and many other cards could be printed here and the old ones would keep value. Having foils of certain cards like force of will (and legendary duals?) would be very popular among the pimp crowd. This would also give yet another outlet to print legacy cards that are also modern staples like tarmogoyf. I think this could be a significantly bigger run than MM without causing problems, and Wizards would make money hand over fist.
3) Obviously fetches need a massive reprint. It's needed for modern anyway, and there's no reason not to include the onslaught fetches gives Wizard's statements that they want the 10 color combinations to have equal mana fixing. This needs to happen ASAP, and again any set containing fetches will be opened in droves.
I know these aren't original thoughts. It's just a way to structure a series of actions that support players of legacy, modern, and commander while respecting the reserve list and appeasing stores and collectors, and making a solid profit at basically no risk. By far the most painful process of getting into legacy is the dual/fetch mana base and getting playsets of FOW and wasteland. If you can get that price down to something reasonable, it will make a lot of players very happy, and legacy players tend to be long-time players who keep spending money.
I also know it's not perfect. cards like Gaea's cradle and city of traitors would get ridiculous (well, they already are, but it'd be MORE ridiculous). I say it's worth it. The decks that run them would either adapt, fade away, or be run in a slightly less powerful version by those who don't have the cash. I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal, because the overall balance of the format would not be significantly altered. The decks that run these cards are already fringe decks largely because of the rarity of the cards. But pox doesn't NEED tabernacle or nether void, miracles doesn't NEED moat, elves doesn't NEED cradle, and dredge doesn't NEED lion's eye diamond. They are all very playable without them. I'd rather see fringe decks fade away than see legacy fade away.
Like you said, not really any new solutions, but I do agree that these are basically the best things WoTC could do to support legacy while keeping their own interest and the player interest in a good balance.
Another option too, and these seems like it might be even more practical for them, is instead of legacy masters, a Cube set obviously meant to be drafted just like modern masters but they could throw in all the powerful (non-reserved list) cards which also happen to often be legacy staples. This would have a much boarder audience than just legacy players. Unfortunately, since conspiracy appears to be basically be this, but instead of reprinting awesome staples, they are just printing stupid "the fact that we are drafting matters" cards it seems unlikely that this would happen soon.
As you pointed out in your Option No. 1, the Reserve List is not actually an impediment to Legacy. At all. Wizards can print functionally different cards that serve virtually the same function in Legacy as existing cards whenever they want to. Examples: Snow / Legendary duals, or even slightly modified version of other cards:
Goblin Pilepusher - 1R
Protection from White
Whenever GP attacks, it gets +2/+0 for each other attacking goblin.
2/1
Virtually interchangeable with Piledriver. Better in most matchups due to StP resistance, worse against Merfolk.
Piece of the Tabernacle - 1
Artifact
Does what a Tabernacle do.
Uses a land drop for a Tabby. More subject to removal.
There might be cards (like Tabby, maybe) where having access to 8 of them is oppressive, but for the majority of Legacy cards I do not think this is true. Goblins probably wouldn't run a full 8 Piledrivers. Most decks would not run 8 relevant duals. Heck, many run only 2 or 3 plus fetches already.
What I'm trying to say is that the Reserve List is a red herring. If WotC liked Legacy, they could revitalize it any time they wanted. They don't. That sucks, but it is what it is.
Eh, I think we should cut our losses. Wizards should reprint every non-reserve list card not already in Modern. Every one. Modern becomes the new Legacy, and we accept that if you want to play those reserve list only decks, you gotta be in the big money numbers...
Eh, I think we should cut our losses. Wizards should reprint every non-reserve list card not already in Modern. Every one. Modern becomes the new Legacy, and we accept that if you want to play those reserve list only decks, you gotta be in the big money numbers...
Please no. I like playing in a format with an average power-level that isn't highly blue-based.
1) Legendary fetchable duals. I know, it's not original. I agree they don't belong in modern. The best place for these is in Commander pre-cons. While this might initially cause those precons to be sold well above MSRP, if a clear message was sent from Wizards that the precons will be large print runs (like the 2013 ones), and that legendary duals will be in every run, the prices will remain reasonable. Also, people don't need a playset. This would make both aspiring legacy players and commander players very happy while retaining the value of the original duals. I know from experience that 1 dual plus shocklands to fill in the gaps is very playable in legacy.
Two Issues:
You are vastly under estimating how many people would want to get their hands on these and vastly over estimating the numbers that Commander deck style products put in the game. Compared to set print runs these non-standard products are miniscule, and the demand would be quite high.
Now, I don't play Legacy so I could be way off here, but I am not really convinced that people would only run one LegDual. With the change to the legendary rule there is not much of a downside to drawing into multiple copies, so it might turn out best to run 2-4 to decrease variance.
Legendary duals are auto 1 ofs in all decks with their counterpart a la u. sea and such just because of surgical extraction effects and such. As for new legend rule making them have no drawback, they're still strictly worse than original duals in multiples short of you actually getting threshold for a nimble mongoose or sacking a land for deathrite or some such corner case like that. Most decks don't want to zero for one themselves and stunt their mana development.
Snow duals are the easiest solution and one that was almost implemented with the first commander decks in 2010 or whenever they came out. As for other cards like tabernacle and such? Those are easy as well to circumvent. Tabernacle that sacrifices instead of destroys or triggers in the draw step, the abyss that doesn't have the world part of it as a supertype or is a sacrifice, candelabra of tawnos that says "Untap up to X target lands" instead of "Untap X target lands." Time spiral that doesn't exile itself.
WotC has shown that they choose to let eternal formats die out rather than support them though as much as I hate it we'll never see snow tundra or anything like that due to it violating the 'spirit of the reserved list'.
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Snow duals are not going to happen in the sense people think. They would need a drawback as just a straight snow dual would break the "spirit" of the reserve list. They have said they do not want to do that either.
The "spirit" of the Reserve List? Do you know what they said exactly about that? It seems pretty far fetched that they'd have legal trouble for violating the List in the first place, even less so if someone has to climb the slippery slope concerning the "spirit" of the list.
But, hey, if you have real concerns, Wizards just changes the environment around the cards:
Snowy Wasteland - Land
T: Add one colorless.
T: Blow up a Snow Land.
Now who's violating the spirit of the list?
As for Legendary Duals, yeah, they're worse than ABUR duals. But not by much. The first copy in your deck is just as good as a regular dual. The rest are not. Considering how you would run fetchlands anyway, a single Legendary Dual would give you access to many archetypes even with only a single copy in your deck.
Wasteland is a common, I don't think it's on the reserved list, but then again I don't know every card on that list....
'Snow duals' and 'legendary duals' violate the spirit of the reserved list according to wizards. The 2010 commander products didn't contain them but almost did because in 2010 they apologized for including a reserved listed card in a FTV product.
While a non reserved list legacy masters sounds like a good idea in theory, it would only cause reserved list cards to rise in price dramatically while also most likely selling poorly from Wizards' standpoint.
There are TONS of ways they could get around the list and support eternal formats, even without abolishing it. At this point, it is pretty clear that they just don't want to. Unfortunately, wizards is perfectly content with allowing eternal formats to plateau while the player base continues to grow.
"The spirit of the reserved list" is utter nonsense. The idea that the reserved list itself is somehow binding to Hasbro is just disingenuous, and the idea that its "spirit" is binding is simply laughable.
WOTC's corporate marketing people just believe they have a "profile" of what a "new customer" wants. And according to them, "new customers" dont like things that are complicated or even slightly difficult to understand. Thus they actively seek to limit the profile of eternal formats, and the reserved list provides a convenient excuse for furthering that goal. Its the same logic behind their "new world order" shift in design.
Its the only rational explanation for why they act the way they do regarding the idea of reprinting eternal staples, regardless of whether a card is on the reserved list or not. The only other reason would be that they hate making money, but that seems doubtful.
Never mind that Legacy has successfully thrived and grown despite their steadfast resolve to strangle it, which entirely disproves the idea that it cant draw in new business for them. Different people like different things. Making more options more available is generally profitable.
While I would be glad to see legendary duals just because they would be more affordable. I don't see why there has to be a compromise. Who are compromising with ourselves? I am sure a lot of us would rather have the list abolished.
well, not exactly binding, but they feel that, as a company, they need to be seen to keep their promises to the players. that is what the Reserve List is: a promise.
the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are often two different things.
take speed limits, for example: I do not know anyone who follows the letter of the speed limit 100% of the time. BUT, I do know people who follow the SPIRIT of the speed limit, in that they follow the flow of traffic and don't go excessively fast.
the letter of the reserve list is: we will not reprint these cards.
the spirit of the reserve list is: we will not reprint these, or functional reprints of these.
so, Snow Duals, while following the letter of the list, break the spirit of the list, and crossed a line they chose not to cross.
they pushed this boundary with Reverberate and the FTV: Relics, and decided that it was too much. I, while I hate the list, am glad that the company takes its promises so seriously: it shows integrity in the business. yes, the list was a mistake. but, as the old saying goes, you do not pick up just one end of the stick. you make a decision, you live with the consequences. the reserve list is a decision that has consequences, and Wizards is deciding to follow through on that by not breaking their word, something most companies have trouble doing.
"The spirit of the reserved list" is utter nonsense. The idea that the reserved list itself is somehow binding to Hasbro is just disingenuous, and the idea that its "spirit" is binding is simply laughable.
WOTC's corporate marketing people just believe they have a "profile" of what a "new customer" wants. And according to them, "new customers" dont like things that are complicated or even slightly difficult to understand. Thus they actively seek to limit the profile of eternal formats, and the reserved list provides a convenient excuse for furthering that goal. Its the same logic behind their "new world order" shift in design.
Its the only rational explanation for why they act the way they do regarding the idea of reprinting eternal staples, regardless of whether a card is on the reserved list or not. The only other reason would be that they hate making money, but that seems doubtful.
Never mind that Legacy has successfully thrived and grown despite their steadfast resolve to strangle it, which entirely disproves the idea that it cant draw in new business for them. Different people like different things. Making more options more available is generally profitable.
You can believe them to be liars all you want, but they have the marketing data and they have all the relevant information from a legal and PR standpoint re: the reserved list. We have scraps and personal bias. As a person who understands how inaccurate conclusions can be without all of the data and how blinding bias can be, I will put my support in the folks with the data.
I think this conversation will be shut down if it keeps discussing the RL, and has a much greater chance of productivity (relatively speaking) if it stays on the subject of ways to work within the current parameters.
On that note-
while I still think that LegeDuals do not solve the problem, for the reasons I already stated, I do feel that they have enough additional rules baggage being legendary that they do not violate the spirit of the RL in the same way snow duals would. I know they have explicitly stated that snow duals would, but have they done so with regard to Legeduals?
How could they possibly violate the spirit of the RL? The entire point of the duals is that they are fetchable and can always come into play untapped without drawbacks. We already have other fetchable lands as long as they have some weakness - being legendary is obviously a downside. Snow ones don't because they not only don't have a downside (outside of some weird unplayable cards), but they're actually better with some playable cards.
I feel obligated to point out that both snow duals and legendary duals violate the reserved list, and I don't even mean the "spirit" of it. They literally violate it because they are considered "functionally identical" according to the official definition of functionally identical stated on the reserved list page. I think that more than anything, this shows how crazy the list actually is.
I think this conversation will be shut down if it keeps discussing the RL, and has a much greater chance of productivity (relatively speaking) if it stays on the subject of ways to work within the current parameters.
My point was more that I havent seen any evidence that its the reserved list in particular that we need to be finding ways around.
The problem is their general corporate policy. If this were really a "oh sorry guys our hands are tied" type of situation, then we would already have meaningful reprints of FoW, Wasteland, and all the Fetches.
the letter of the reserve list is: we will not reprint these cards.
the spirit of the reserve list is: we will not reprint these, or functional reprints of these.
so, Snow Duals, while following the letter of the list, break the spirit of the list, and crossed a line they chose not to cross.
Wouldn't functional reprints already violate the letter though technically?
IMO it's simple: The reserve list has a set guideline of what is allowed, not allowed, and what doesn't and does violate these guidelines. If it isn't already, make functional reprints a violation of the list [though I feel it is already] and to hell with the 'spirit of the reserve list.'
Seriously.
It's already laid out black and white what is/isn't allowed, and what does/doesn't break these rules, and IMO such a "spirit" IMO is in of itself nonspiritual to the idea of the reserve list, since it arbitrarily restricts card design and asserts itself as an "extension" of the list. It just feels so arbitrary and nonsensical - and like somebody nobody really asked for versus just following the list.
I mean, if you have card A, and card B, card A is on the list, B is not... card B has the same mechanics as A, but with additional mechanics governing its use - how it works, etc, even if small, that is by nature not a functional reprint, now is it?
I feel obligated to point out that both snow duals and legendary duals violate the reserved list, and I don't even mean the "spirit" of it. They literally violate it because they are considered "functionally identical" according to the official definition of functionally identical stated on the reserved list page. I think that more than anything, this shows how crazy the list actually is.
Can you link to where they said that about Legendary duals? Legendary status is a pretty huge addition to how a card works (though oddly enough it makes it slightly easier to fetch), so it seems odd that they would consider Legendary Duals functionally identical. I don't think they really solve the problem, but I want to make sure that people are stating fact rather than rumor and interpretation.
I feel obligated to point out that both snow duals and legendary duals violate the reserved list, and I don't even mean the "spirit" of it. They literally violate it because they are considered "functionally identical" according to the official definition of functionally identical stated on the reserved list page. I think that more than anything, this shows how crazy the list actually is.
Can you link to where they said that about Legendary duals? Legendary status is a pretty huge addition to how a card works (though oddly enough it makes it slightly easier to fetch), so it seems odd that they would consider Legendary Duals functionally identical. I don't think they really solve the problem, but I want to make sure that people are stating fact rather than rumor and interpretation.
He's going by the strict definition the reserved list page gives.
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
A legendary dual would share the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power and toughness. Snow and Legendary are both supertypes.Obviously that's an idiotic definition, as supertypes make significant gameplay differences sometimes, but he's technically correct.
I think printing legendary duals in Commander products is an excellent idea. Each of the five precons from Commander 2015 (or would it be 2016?) could contain 2 legendary duals. And the precons in the Commander release after that could reprint the legendary duals, just like Sol Ring keeps getting reprinted. This constant trickle of supply would help keep prices manageable. If they also reprinted Wasteland and Force of Will in two new Planechase products (new cardframe and artwork from MTGO Cube), keeping in mind that this would not be a limited release and would be for sale in Target, Walmart etc., this would go a long way making legacy more accessible.
I think this conversation will be shut down if it keeps discussing the RL, and has a much greater chance of productivity (relatively speaking) if it stays on the subject of ways to work within the current parameters.
THANK YOU.
Yes folks, PLEASE refrain from the completely off-topic discussion of your opinions about the reserve list. It's been argued in circles for over a decade and that is NOT the point of this thread.
The point of the thread is to talk about realistic ways to support legacy in an effective manner IN THE CONTEXT OF NOT VIOLATING THE RESERVE LIST. This means both by the letter and, since Wizard's has stated they want to follow "the spirit," then that too.
Personally I do not believe legendary duals violate the spirit, as they are strictly worse than ABUR duals and are not strictly better than basics. They skirt the edge of violating the spirit for sure... The reason I think they would be acceptable to Wizards is primarily because of how popular they would be for Commander, which they have made a clear message they want to promote heavily going forward. I think supporting commander would make it worth it for them to skirt the edge in that one case.
The fact is that most of the money cards in "legacy masters" would ALSO be a huge boon to commander players. Wasteland, Force of Will, JTMS, stoneforge, jitte, and a lot of the other cards I've mentioned are popular commander cards as well. The fact that more copies would support legacy could be secondary from Wizard's standpoint. Again, this makes things win-win... legacy players get what they want, commander players benefit, and Wizards and game stores laugh all the way to the bank.
I don't believe there's anything to indicate that printing new copies of cards like FOW would be a violation of the "spirit" of the reserve list.
And again to those who have pointed out that reserved list cards would continue to rise: Read the OP. I acknowledge that, and I say it's worth it. Lion's eye diamond aside, there just aren't enough non-dual-land reserved list cards out there to affect legacy in any meaningful way. Say Gaea's cradle goes to $1,000. Elves works just fine without it... people would just skip it. I guess high tide and 12-post would be pretty hard to run with a $1K candelabra, but it's not like either was ever that big a part of the meta. No big deal. Most of the consistent top decks don't even run anything on the list except duals.
1) Legendary fetchable duals. I know, it's not original. I agree they don't belong in modern. The best place for these is in Commander pre-cons. While this might initially cause those precons to be sold well above MSRP, if a clear message was sent from Wizards that the precons will be large print runs (like the 2013 ones), and that legendary duals will be in every run, the prices will remain reasonable. Also, people don't need a playset. This would make both aspiring legacy players and commander players very happy while retaining the value of the original duals. I know from experience that 1 dual plus shocklands to fill in the gaps is very playable in legacy.
2) Legacy masters. Just stick to non-reserved list cards. Force of will, wasteland, JTMS, stoneforge mystic, sinkhole, jitte, karakas, rishadan port, and many other cards could be printed here and the old ones would keep value. Having foils of certain cards like force of will (and legendary duals?) would be very popular among the pimp crowd. This would also give yet another outlet to print legacy cards that are also modern staples like tarmogoyf. I think this could be a significantly bigger run than MM without causing problems, and Wizards would make money hand over fist.
3) Obviously fetches need a massive reprint. It's needed for modern anyway, and there's no reason not to include the onslaught fetches gives Wizard's statements that they want the 10 color combinations to have equal mana fixing. This needs to happen ASAP, and again any set containing fetches will be opened in droves.
I know these aren't original thoughts. It's just a way to structure a series of actions that support players of legacy, modern, and commander while respecting the reserve list and appeasing stores and collectors, and making a solid profit at basically no risk. By far the most painful process of getting into legacy is the dual/fetch mana base and getting playsets of FOW and wasteland. If you can get that price down to something reasonable, it will make a lot of players very happy, and legacy players tend to be long-time players who keep spending money.
I also know it's not perfect. cards like Gaea's cradle and city of traitors would get ridiculous (well, they already are, but it'd be MORE ridiculous). I say it's worth it. The decks that run them would either adapt, fade away, or be run in a slightly less powerful version by those who don't have the cash. I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal, because the overall balance of the format would not be significantly altered. The decks that run these cards are already fringe decks largely because of the rarity of the cards. But pox doesn't NEED tabernacle or nether void, miracles doesn't NEED moat, elves doesn't NEED cradle, and dredge doesn't NEED lion's eye diamond. They are all very playable without them. I'd rather see fringe decks fade away than see legacy fade away.
Another option too, and these seems like it might be even more practical for them, is instead of legacy masters, a Cube set obviously meant to be drafted just like modern masters but they could throw in all the powerful (non-reserved list) cards which also happen to often be legacy staples. This would have a much boarder audience than just legacy players. Unfortunately, since conspiracy appears to be basically be this, but instead of reprinting awesome staples, they are just printing stupid "the fact that we are drafting matters" cards it seems unlikely that this would happen soon.
Goblin Pilepusher - 1R
Protection from White
Whenever GP attacks, it gets +2/+0 for each other attacking goblin.
2/1
Virtually interchangeable with Piledriver. Better in most matchups due to StP resistance, worse against Merfolk.
Piece of the Tabernacle - 1
Artifact
Does what a Tabernacle do.
Uses a land drop for a Tabby. More subject to removal.
There might be cards (like Tabby, maybe) where having access to 8 of them is oppressive, but for the majority of Legacy cards I do not think this is true. Goblins probably wouldn't run a full 8 Piledrivers. Most decks would not run 8 relevant duals. Heck, many run only 2 or 3 plus fetches already.
What I'm trying to say is that the Reserve List is a red herring. If WotC liked Legacy, they could revitalize it any time they wanted. They don't. That sucks, but it is what it is.
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Please no. I like playing in a format with an average power-level that isn't highly blue-based.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
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Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Snow duals are the easiest solution and one that was almost implemented with the first commander decks in 2010 or whenever they came out. As for other cards like tabernacle and such? Those are easy as well to circumvent. Tabernacle that sacrifices instead of destroys or triggers in the draw step, the abyss that doesn't have the world part of it as a supertype or is a sacrifice, candelabra of tawnos that says "Untap up to X target lands" instead of "Untap X target lands." Time spiral that doesn't exile itself.
WotC has shown that they choose to let eternal formats die out rather than support them though as much as I hate it we'll never see snow tundra or anything like that due to it violating the 'spirit of the reserved list'.
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But, hey, if you have real concerns, Wizards just changes the environment around the cards:
Snowy Wasteland - Land
T: Add one colorless.
T: Blow up a Snow Land.
Now who's violating the spirit of the list?
As for Legendary Duals, yeah, they're worse than ABUR duals. But not by much. The first copy in your deck is just as good as a regular dual. The rest are not. Considering how you would run fetchlands anyway, a single Legendary Dual would give you access to many archetypes even with only a single copy in your deck.
'Snow duals' and 'legendary duals' violate the spirit of the reserved list according to wizards. The 2010 commander products didn't contain them but almost did because in 2010 they apologized for including a reserved listed card in a FTV product.
While a non reserved list legacy masters sounds like a good idea in theory, it would only cause reserved list cards to rise in price dramatically while also most likely selling poorly from Wizards' standpoint.
Wasteland is an uncommon, so is Force of Will, they could reprint those if they chose to even without worrying about the Reserved List
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WOTC's corporate marketing people just believe they have a "profile" of what a "new customer" wants. And according to them, "new customers" dont like things that are complicated or even slightly difficult to understand. Thus they actively seek to limit the profile of eternal formats, and the reserved list provides a convenient excuse for furthering that goal. Its the same logic behind their "new world order" shift in design.
Its the only rational explanation for why they act the way they do regarding the idea of reprinting eternal staples, regardless of whether a card is on the reserved list or not. The only other reason would be that they hate making money, but that seems doubtful.
Never mind that Legacy has successfully thrived and grown despite their steadfast resolve to strangle it, which entirely disproves the idea that it cant draw in new business for them. Different people like different things. Making more options more available is generally profitable.
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the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are often two different things.
take speed limits, for example: I do not know anyone who follows the letter of the speed limit 100% of the time. BUT, I do know people who follow the SPIRIT of the speed limit, in that they follow the flow of traffic and don't go excessively fast.
the letter of the reserve list is: we will not reprint these cards.
the spirit of the reserve list is: we will not reprint these, or functional reprints of these.
so, Snow Duals, while following the letter of the list, break the spirit of the list, and crossed a line they chose not to cross.
they pushed this boundary with Reverberate and the FTV: Relics, and decided that it was too much. I, while I hate the list, am glad that the company takes its promises so seriously: it shows integrity in the business. yes, the list was a mistake. but, as the old saying goes, you do not pick up just one end of the stick. you make a decision, you live with the consequences. the reserve list is a decision that has consequences, and Wizards is deciding to follow through on that by not breaking their word, something most companies have trouble doing.
even though doing so would make them money.
please, read up on this before you comment.
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there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
I think this conversation will be shut down if it keeps discussing the RL, and has a much greater chance of productivity (relatively speaking) if it stays on the subject of ways to work within the current parameters.
On that note-
while I still think that LegeDuals do not solve the problem, for the reasons I already stated, I do feel that they have enough additional rules baggage being legendary that they do not violate the spirit of the RL in the same way snow duals would. I know they have explicitly stated that snow duals would, but have they done so with regard to Legeduals?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
My point was more that I havent seen any evidence that its the reserved list in particular that we need to be finding ways around.
The problem is their general corporate policy. If this were really a "oh sorry guys our hands are tied" type of situation, then we would already have meaningful reprints of FoW, Wasteland, and all the Fetches.
Wouldn't functional reprints already violate the letter though technically?
IMO it's simple: The reserve list has a set guideline of what is allowed, not allowed, and what doesn't and does violate these guidelines. If it isn't already, make functional reprints a violation of the list [though I feel it is already] and to hell with the 'spirit of the reserve list.'
Seriously.
It's already laid out black and white what is/isn't allowed, and what does/doesn't break these rules, and IMO such a "spirit" IMO is in of itself nonspiritual to the idea of the reserve list, since it arbitrarily restricts card design and asserts itself as an "extension" of the list. It just feels so arbitrary and nonsensical - and like somebody nobody really asked for versus just following the list.
I mean, if you have card A, and card B, card A is on the list, B is not... card B has the same mechanics as A, but with additional mechanics governing its use - how it works, etc, even if small, that is by nature not a functional reprint, now is it?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
He's going by the strict definition the reserved list page gives.
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
A legendary dual would share the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power and toughness. Snow and Legendary are both supertypes.Obviously that's an idiotic definition, as supertypes make significant gameplay differences sometimes, but he's technically correct.
THANK YOU.
Yes folks, PLEASE refrain from the completely off-topic discussion of your opinions about the reserve list. It's been argued in circles for over a decade and that is NOT the point of this thread.
The point of the thread is to talk about realistic ways to support legacy in an effective manner IN THE CONTEXT OF NOT VIOLATING THE RESERVE LIST. This means both by the letter and, since Wizard's has stated they want to follow "the spirit," then that too.
Personally I do not believe legendary duals violate the spirit, as they are strictly worse than ABUR duals and are not strictly better than basics. They skirt the edge of violating the spirit for sure... The reason I think they would be acceptable to Wizards is primarily because of how popular they would be for Commander, which they have made a clear message they want to promote heavily going forward. I think supporting commander would make it worth it for them to skirt the edge in that one case.
The fact is that most of the money cards in "legacy masters" would ALSO be a huge boon to commander players. Wasteland, Force of Will, JTMS, stoneforge, jitte, and a lot of the other cards I've mentioned are popular commander cards as well. The fact that more copies would support legacy could be secondary from Wizard's standpoint. Again, this makes things win-win... legacy players get what they want, commander players benefit, and Wizards and game stores laugh all the way to the bank.
I don't believe there's anything to indicate that printing new copies of cards like FOW would be a violation of the "spirit" of the reserve list.
And again to those who have pointed out that reserved list cards would continue to rise: Read the OP. I acknowledge that, and I say it's worth it. Lion's eye diamond aside, there just aren't enough non-dual-land reserved list cards out there to affect legacy in any meaningful way. Say Gaea's cradle goes to $1,000. Elves works just fine without it... people would just skip it. I guess high tide and 12-post would be pretty hard to run with a $1K candelabra, but it's not like either was ever that big a part of the meta. No big deal. Most of the consistent top decks don't even run anything on the list except duals.