As a healthcare professional, some kind of initiative should be done to promote some hygiene promotion.
Something short of febreze bombing would be acceptable.
Two years ago a bunch of people that frequented an LGS I used to go ended up at the ER I work at for flulike symptoms a week after a small standard tourney. These conditions are short of an engineered plague.
As a healthcare professional, some kind of initiative should be done to promote some hygiene promotion.
Something short of febreze bombing would be acceptable.
Two years ago a bunch of people that frequented an LGS I used to go ended up at the ER I work at for flulike symptoms a week after a small standard tourney. These conditions are short of an engineered plague.
This tangent seems a bit silly. A health care professional should know that odors dont cause disease. And that a confined environment where you stay for several hours and shake everyone's hand is going to be pretty primed for disease transmission regardless of how many showers people take beforehand.
I have, on multiple occasions driven 6+ hours and slept in a car outside of the Indianapolis convention center and on those days I never smelled as bad as some of the people I've met and seen at an LGS.
When people say they want to, or have conceded against someone because of smell, in your mind you think they're full of *****. They are not. I have been in the situation before.
Squeezed in next to someone, behind someone, touching chairs with three people, your mat is centered 6 inches to your left and you've got thousands of dollars in cards next to your feet and your opponent smells like the product of a large herbivore's digestive system, not literally in the 'he probably works on a farm he just came from' but figuratively in the 'I wish he actually smelled like he works on a farm'. Farms smell pretty bad, 40-50 miles south of me it smells pretty bad, but these guys smell worse. Like they didn't take a bath after running the mile in gym three years ago bad. Like they're body smells of the wonder of lifting a hoarder's couch to find three dead cats in varying but fresh states of decay.
These players are real, and it's not a smell you find from a lot of people that aren't homeless alcoholics.
These people, there should be rules against.
No shirt, no shoes, no service? How about no bath this week no tournament this week?
Seriously, I can get busy, I can get drove overnight, I can get drove two days to get here, I can even get 'poor enough that I have to watch the amount of water I use'. But I don't get 'your dog will smell me when you get home, because I wreak like expensive cheese'.
As I have said before, in the past 10+ years I have only had a problem with a person's BO twice that I can recall. Otherwise it is not as much of an issue here as others claim it is in their cities. What I have been utterly grossed out by is people that smell like year old ash tray and people that wear too much overwhelming cologne. Both of these are things that I run into much more often and it is utterly vile. I bring it up to point out that various odors that equally repugnant to people, and it opens up a big can of wurms.
Maybe it's a local thing? I've never encountered someone who smelled that bad. I mean, I've encountered a few stock nerd stereotypes, but mostly it was saying "I'll tap that." (Yeah, it's a pun and a cliché.) I've also encountered people who thought the double nickel was somehow random. But those are my major complaints.
I think it is at least locally consistent because I have talked to a number of locals here on MTGS and all have backed me up that it is not an issue here.
I keep a bottle of body spray in my backpack for occasions such as this. I don't spray the other person I just spray myself. Tends to overpower their odor and leaves me smelling fresh.
Yea, the nauseating smell of cheap perfume or whatever scent of Axe was on sale is pretty overpowering. You should be careful where you spray that stuff as people can have serious allergies to the chemicals used. If you really want to guard yourself from strong odors you can do what professionals do and rub some vick's vapo-rub or tiger balm on your upper lip, as it will block most odors. In the hospital we have this great odor free hypoallergenic spray that literally erases odors from the air but I'm not sure if there is a commercial version.
Ixias, people manage to maintain good hygiene standards in the professional world without problems. The fact that we can't create a scientific definition of "smelly" doesn't mean that we can't trust the judgement of tournament officials, just like we rely on subjective judgements in other parts of life.
And the thing is, Wizards would only really have to crack down on it for like 6 months, word would start getting out that you have to actually bathe to attend events and if you don't, you will be DQed. I guarantee that people will start making sure they bathe beforehand. If other sports and events can have a basic minimum of decency, so too can magic.
I find the bathroom situation at game stores the worse offender when gaming. It seems like everyone waits to take a huge ***** until they get to the store.
Game stores usually only have one or two toilets and if the door is locked, nine times out of ten, you end up waiting 10 minutes just to smell dump while taking a leak.
maybe eat something that's not a bean and cheese covered meat hoagie and maybe eat not an hour before you hit the LGS for a tournament.
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I scooped from a large event once because of body odor. It can be really bad. I hate the WOTC and the DCI refuse to tackle this problem. It's pretty easy to bring it up at the player's meeting. If you haven't showered and you smell very bad you WILL get a game loss. Guess what, people will start arriving cleaner...
But again, what constitutes "smells bad"? Do we have a smelling jury that decides how bad you can smell before you are disqualified? What if I'm facing a sweaty guy in the finals and I decide to call a judge to sniff him and DQ him because that's an easy win for me? What if I'm the sweaty guy and I'm having the tournament of my life? I make it to the finals and after 6 hours of Magic in a room filled with people, I smell pretty bad. My opponent in the finals decides to abuse that and get my disqualified. Suddenly I get no prices despite playing really well and getting to the finals.
It's not that difficult. If the BO is so strong that it's uncomfortable to smell then the player needs to take better care of himself.
Or, excluding "scenarios", how do you propose the logistics of this will actually work? Do the people in registration smell you when you register? Is there a dedicated sniffer that decides who smells too bad and who smells OK? What if you smell good (with deodorant and everything) when you arrive, but a few hours later you smell of sweat because it got hot inside the tournament area?
I don't know, it feels like people haven't actually thought all of this through.
Here's how to handle this. If a judge receives a complaint about body odor, the judge grabs at least two other judges and confronts the player. If the judges are in agreement, the player is given a round loss and told to take care of the problem. If the problem is not resolved and is not medical in nature, the player is ejected from the tournament.
Also layers have to have a REAL doctor's permission to be smelly. I can already see that the first thing everyone will do is say they are smelly because of a medical reason.
New strategy for winning tournaments: Before the start of every game, scoop some rubbish out of the trash (use gloves or pay someone else to do it if you're afraid of getting it on yourself) and throw it at your opponent. Call a judge. Instant DQ.
This is a fine line I don't think wizards needs to tread down.
Personally, as an individual with a barely working sense of smell, I have never met an individual with a bad body odor (outside of those with a strong Curry diet, I can smell them for some reason). However, is odor the only thing that would classify as being unhygienic? What about those who look dirty, like a greasy look?
Are they going to regulate how many showers one must take a week to attend tournament events? What about those who have Hyperhidrosis and cannot help the fact that they are always sweating? I have one such player at my LGS. His deck usually clumps together because of the sweat coming from his hand. It's completely out of his control. Would he not be allowed to attend because he has a BO and he looks like he just hit the gym?
Also layers have to have a REAL doctor's permission to be smelly. I can already see that the first thing everyone will do is say they are smelly because of a medical reason.
That's not usually how it's handled in the professional world. Usually, persons with a persistent medical odour issue are prescribed high-strength anti-perspirants or other products that aren't available over the counter; showing those would be proof enough. There's no need to require anyone produce a doctor's report.
Now, there might be the issue in the U.S. that some players with said medical issues may also lack coverage for prescription treatments, and so elect to be smelly rather than pay out-of-pocket; under those circumstances, I would suggest that the tournament organizers use their discretion, but I would err on the side of promoting the comfort of the tournament attendees at large as opposed to the offender's comfort.
I would prefer smelly players over a judge smell tribunal at the tournaments I go all the time.
No one is suggesting a tribunal in order to gain entry. We're suggesting that in the case of egregiously offensive odours, tournament organizers should have a procedure under which they can evaluate complaints, attempt to address them, and then, if necessary, fairly ask offensive players to leave the venue.
Most players have only a minor amount of body odour; however, some players (at every tournament I've been to) have taken advantage of the fact that no Magic tournament enforces any hygiene standards, and so exhibit no hygiene whatsoever for the duration of the weekend. It was a serious problem on the convention circuit until the community as a whole decided to exclude truly offensive smells and create a higher standard for attendance. Convention attendees similarly complained about "having to pass a smell test to buy a ticket"; no such issues manifested, because the vast majority of attendees never rose to the level of offensiveness. The issue was having a system in place to deal with people who took advantage of lax standards, an overly permissive and conflict-adverse culture, and a lack of enforcement procedures.
Match loss for exposed crack, first infraction. Tourney DQ for 2nd offense. Exposed crack is just plain nasty. You make yourself look bad. You make the community look bad. You make the event look bad. Seriously. If you can afford your deck, which costs at least $50 and the entry fee to the GP, you can buy a functioning belt and functioning pants. It's not that hard. Really.
I'm sorry my pants fell down some after moving around in my seat. Or my shirt got pulled up some when I had to reach something that got knocked off the table. I have a functioning belt and pairs of pants. But that doesn't stop your crack from being exposed. And it isn't always a 3 inch gap of crack. Most of the time it is just the top part, which can been seen in most of those photos that were taken. And in them, most of the guys had on a belt and pants and not those sport shorts that the others were wearing.
This is a fine line I don't think wizards needs to tread down.
What fine line? If you stink, you are given the option to fix it. If you aren't willing to, out you go. Why are you so quick to protect those who obviously refuse to take care of themselves to everyone's detriment? If someone is swearing in front of kids, do you say it's okay because some people with Tourette's could do the same thing?
This is a fine line I don't think wizards needs to tread down.
What fine line? If you stink, you are given the option to fix it. If you aren't willing to, out you go. Why are you so quick to protect those who obviously refuse to take care of themselves to everyone's detriment? If someone is swearing in front of kids, do you say it's okay because some people with Tourette's could do the same thing?
Because there are those who honestly cannot help it. It's not always a hygiene issue. There are many conditions that cause odors that not even constant deodorant and bathing can assist with. Wizards doesn't want to risk going down any path that could discriminate against any individual as that could cause them law suits.
So you are okay with anyone swearing in front of children because some people can't help it? Is that your stance?
Different situation entirely. Swearing in front of children can get you arrested and sued. Having bad Hygiene cannot. You're comparing something that is simply unpleasant to be around to something that is vulgar, obscene and can cause legal repercussions together (not to mention an angry father taking matters into his own hands).
Swearing in front of children can most definitely not get you arrested or sued (well, you can sue for anything, but it isn't going anywhere).
"Certain categories of speech are not entitled to First Amendment protection, including fighting words, true threats and incitement to imminent lawless action. If a person engages in profane fighting words or utters a true threat with profanity, those words may not be protected speech." http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/remember-profanity-isnt-always-protected-speech
So swearing in front of children is just like having offensive body odor.
That's a big difference. Swearing is your own choice unless you have a disorder like Tourettes. People usually don't have the amount of control over their sweat glands necessary to stop smelling after a few hours in a hot, enclosed area.
And people have a choice to bathe and use deodorant/antiperspirant. And yes, Wizards should make it a policy to make sure there is adequate airflow at all events. If that is true at the event in question, there is no excuse for anyone to be that smelly and unclean except for medical reasons.
Swearing in front of children can most definitely not get you arrested or sued (well, you can sue for anything, but it isn't going anywhere).
"Certain categories of speech are not entitled to First Amendment protection, including fighting words, true threats and incitement to imminent lawless action. If a person engages in profane fighting words or utters a true threat with profanity, those words may not be protected speech." http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/remember-profanity-isnt-always-protected-speech
So swearing in front of children is just like having offensive body odor.
Actually swearing in public, be it in front of children or not falls under Public Disturbance and can very much get you arrested. If the parent believes you've caused mental trauma to the child with your language you can be sued for the costs of therapy/etc. So yes, it is entirely different than body odor.
Because there are those who honestly cannot help it. It's not always a hygiene issue. There are many conditions that cause odors that not even constant deodorant and bathing can assist with. Wizards doesn't want to risk going down any path that could discriminate against any individual as that could cause them law suits.
In the working world, those who "honestly can't help it" are accommodated; that doesn't mean their body odour is incapable of becoming an issue. If someone has medically-induced odour, there are prescriptions and treatments available; see your doctor. If a person has done all they reasonably can to deal with their medical issue, then nothing more can be expected of them and they can't be discriminated against.
For those who can help it, body odour can be made an issue in the same with, with the added benefit that a prescription is not needed to combat the problem. If a person has done all they reasonably can to fix the issue (it's a hot, crowded room naturally and they're wearing over-the-counter deodorant), then nothing more can be expected on them and they can't be discriminated against.
But, if you can help it, and your refuse to do so, and you stink, the TO should have a procedure in place to identify, confront, warn and possibly exclude, for the comfort of other participants.
At no point does a lawsuit become a risk, if the above procedures are followed, as proven by HR codes (both human rights and human resources) across America. The only issues arise when a person is being excluded, even after doing all they can reasonably be expected to do.
Screening for strong offensive odors is easy. Every player has to submit a deck list or pay an entry fee. If the TO notices a foul odor at that time, then that's the time to inform the offender that they can't participate unless they fix the problem.
But this won't happen because the TO's want those entry fees. Elsewhere, some people have pointed at L5R as the example of how to handle this issue. But looking at sales linked below, the people running Magic don't have much motivation to copy the people running L5R.
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
At no point does a lawsuit become a risk, if the above procedures are followed, as proven by HR codes (both human rights and human resources) across America. The only issues arise when a person is being excluded, even after doing all they can reasonably be expected to do.
A lawsuit can become a risk if an individual feels they were discriminated against, humiliated or singled out in any way. It would also be bad PR for any company if that person were to make it public via Twitter or have an article written about it on a major website. It's a path no company wants to walk down where they turn people away for reasons such as hygiene.
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Something short of febreze bombing would be acceptable.
Two years ago a bunch of people that frequented an LGS I used to go ended up at the ER I work at for flulike symptoms a week after a small standard tourney. These conditions are short of an engineered plague.
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This tangent seems a bit silly. A health care professional should know that odors dont cause disease. And that a confined environment where you stay for several hours and shake everyone's hand is going to be pretty primed for disease transmission regardless of how many showers people take beforehand.
When people say they want to, or have conceded against someone because of smell, in your mind you think they're full of *****. They are not. I have been in the situation before.
Squeezed in next to someone, behind someone, touching chairs with three people, your mat is centered 6 inches to your left and you've got thousands of dollars in cards next to your feet and your opponent smells like the product of a large herbivore's digestive system, not literally in the 'he probably works on a farm he just came from' but figuratively in the 'I wish he actually smelled like he works on a farm'. Farms smell pretty bad, 40-50 miles south of me it smells pretty bad, but these guys smell worse. Like they didn't take a bath after running the mile in gym three years ago bad. Like they're body smells of the wonder of lifting a hoarder's couch to find three dead cats in varying but fresh states of decay.
These players are real, and it's not a smell you find from a lot of people that aren't homeless alcoholics.
These people, there should be rules against.
No shirt, no shoes, no service? How about no bath this week no tournament this week?
Seriously, I can get busy, I can get drove overnight, I can get drove two days to get here, I can even get 'poor enough that I have to watch the amount of water I use'. But I don't get 'your dog will smell me when you get home, because I wreak like expensive cheese'.
Yea, the nauseating smell of cheap perfume or whatever scent of Axe was on sale is pretty overpowering. You should be careful where you spray that stuff as people can have serious allergies to the chemicals used. If you really want to guard yourself from strong odors you can do what professionals do and rub some vick's vapo-rub or tiger balm on your upper lip, as it will block most odors. In the hospital we have this great odor free hypoallergenic spray that literally erases odors from the air but I'm not sure if there is a commercial version.
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Game stores usually only have one or two toilets and if the door is locked, nine times out of ten, you end up waiting 10 minutes just to smell dump while taking a leak.
maybe eat something that's not a bean and cheese covered meat hoagie and maybe eat not an hour before you hit the LGS for a tournament.
The EDH stax primer
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Personally, as an individual with a barely working sense of smell, I have never met an individual with a bad body odor (outside of those with a strong Curry diet, I can smell them for some reason). However, is odor the only thing that would classify as being unhygienic? What about those who look dirty, like a greasy look?
Are they going to regulate how many showers one must take a week to attend tournament events? What about those who have Hyperhidrosis and cannot help the fact that they are always sweating? I have one such player at my LGS. His deck usually clumps together because of the sweat coming from his hand. It's completely out of his control. Would he not be allowed to attend because he has a BO and he looks like he just hit the gym?
That's not usually how it's handled in the professional world. Usually, persons with a persistent medical odour issue are prescribed high-strength anti-perspirants or other products that aren't available over the counter; showing those would be proof enough. There's no need to require anyone produce a doctor's report.
Now, there might be the issue in the U.S. that some players with said medical issues may also lack coverage for prescription treatments, and so elect to be smelly rather than pay out-of-pocket; under those circumstances, I would suggest that the tournament organizers use their discretion, but I would err on the side of promoting the comfort of the tournament attendees at large as opposed to the offender's comfort.
No one is suggesting a tribunal in order to gain entry. We're suggesting that in the case of egregiously offensive odours, tournament organizers should have a procedure under which they can evaluate complaints, attempt to address them, and then, if necessary, fairly ask offensive players to leave the venue.
Most players have only a minor amount of body odour; however, some players (at every tournament I've been to) have taken advantage of the fact that no Magic tournament enforces any hygiene standards, and so exhibit no hygiene whatsoever for the duration of the weekend. It was a serious problem on the convention circuit until the community as a whole decided to exclude truly offensive smells and create a higher standard for attendance. Convention attendees similarly complained about "having to pass a smell test to buy a ticket"; no such issues manifested, because the vast majority of attendees never rose to the level of offensiveness. The issue was having a system in place to deal with people who took advantage of lax standards, an overly permissive and conflict-adverse culture, and a lack of enforcement procedures.
I'm sorry my pants fell down some after moving around in my seat. Or my shirt got pulled up some when I had to reach something that got knocked off the table. I have a functioning belt and pairs of pants. But that doesn't stop your crack from being exposed. And it isn't always a 3 inch gap of crack. Most of the time it is just the top part, which can been seen in most of those photos that were taken. And in them, most of the guys had on a belt and pants and not those sport shorts that the others were wearing.
What fine line? If you stink, you are given the option to fix it. If you aren't willing to, out you go. Why are you so quick to protect those who obviously refuse to take care of themselves to everyone's detriment? If someone is swearing in front of kids, do you say it's okay because some people with Tourette's could do the same thing?
Because there are those who honestly cannot help it. It's not always a hygiene issue. There are many conditions that cause odors that not even constant deodorant and bathing can assist with. Wizards doesn't want to risk going down any path that could discriminate against any individual as that could cause them law suits.
Different situation entirely. Swearing in front of children can get you arrested and sued. Having bad Hygiene cannot. You're comparing something that is simply unpleasant to be around to something that is vulgar, obscene and can cause legal repercussions together (not to mention an angry father taking matters into his own hands).
"Certain categories of speech are not entitled to First Amendment protection, including fighting words, true threats and incitement to imminent lawless action. If a person engages in profane fighting words or utters a true threat with profanity, those words may not be protected speech."
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/remember-profanity-isnt-always-protected-speech
So swearing in front of children is just like having offensive body odor.
And people have a choice to bathe and use deodorant/antiperspirant. And yes, Wizards should make it a policy to make sure there is adequate airflow at all events. If that is true at the event in question, there is no excuse for anyone to be that smelly and unclean except for medical reasons.
Actually swearing in public, be it in front of children or not falls under Public Disturbance and can very much get you arrested. If the parent believes you've caused mental trauma to the child with your language you can be sued for the costs of therapy/etc. So yes, it is entirely different than body odor.
In the working world, those who "honestly can't help it" are accommodated; that doesn't mean their body odour is incapable of becoming an issue. If someone has medically-induced odour, there are prescriptions and treatments available; see your doctor. If a person has done all they reasonably can to deal with their medical issue, then nothing more can be expected of them and they can't be discriminated against.
For those who can help it, body odour can be made an issue in the same with, with the added benefit that a prescription is not needed to combat the problem. If a person has done all they reasonably can to fix the issue (it's a hot, crowded room naturally and they're wearing over-the-counter deodorant), then nothing more can be expected on them and they can't be discriminated against.
But, if you can help it, and your refuse to do so, and you stink, the TO should have a procedure in place to identify, confront, warn and possibly exclude, for the comfort of other participants.
At no point does a lawsuit become a risk, if the above procedures are followed, as proven by HR codes (both human rights and human resources) across America. The only issues arise when a person is being excluded, even after doing all they can reasonably be expected to do.
But this won't happen because the TO's want those entry fees. Elsewhere, some people have pointed at L5R as the example of how to handle this issue. But looking at sales linked below, the people running Magic don't have much motivation to copy the people running L5R.
Top Collectible Games--Fall 2013 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/28121.html)
Conclusion: Trying to make the game exclusive requires turning paying customers away. Greed > Hygiene
A lawsuit can become a risk if an individual feels they were discriminated against, humiliated or singled out in any way. It would also be bad PR for any company if that person were to make it public via Twitter or have an article written about it on a major website. It's a path no company wants to walk down where they turn people away for reasons such as hygiene.