Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
as you can see, he just return one card to top of library
no he saw them and put them there but then again it took the first one to see before finishing resolving brainstorm ( also they comment about the "miss play/"Cheat"" that happened in the match ( the other guy (while with 0 cards in hand) drawned 2 cards and saw a tarmo in hand but when he was playing it he saw that there was another card behind it and said it to his opponent and they called the judge)
Also this must have been posted on Magic General or Legacy forum
EDIT: lol he actually just putted one card back ( I think its a Missplay) ( when i watched this on sunday i remenber that but didn't noticed this)
If pros and other players keep messing this up they may be forced to move to a computerized version, so that cheating and "misplays" of this sort don't occur. Would it ever happen to regular play, limited formats? Certainly not. But if stuff like this continues to happen on a frequent basis I'm sure they will at least consider the notion.
If pros and other players keep messing this up they may be forced to move to a computerized version, so that cheating and "misplays" of this sort don't occur. Would it ever happen to regular play, limited formats? Certainly not. But if stuff like this continues to happen on a frequent basis I'm sure they will at least consider the notion.
Bringing a laptop instead of your deck? Could this mean the end of competitive paper Magic?
I don't like cheaters. However, honest mistakes do happen. It is too extreme to suggest that the game should be purely digital or that pros should never make a misplay. These streaming games are watched by literally thousands of people including judges, other pros, and even game designers. Heck, there are often judges right at the feature match table and paid experts commenting on every detail of the game. And all these people STILL miss some mistakes made by the feature players. No one can be perfect and catch every mistake all the time.
I honestly think he did it on purpose. Some cards you don't just "forget" to do things with, especially when it's a pillar of the format. Personally I think stuff like life gain or life loss is easier to forget, but when it comes to something more physical like drawing or searching for cards its a lot harder for me to believe. Only putting one down means he realized the effect of the card, right?
I honestly think he did it on purpose. Some cards you don't just "forget" to do things with, especially when it's a pillar of the format. Personally I think stuff like life gain or life loss is easier to forget, but when it comes to something more physical like drawing or searching for cards its a lot harder for me to believe. Only putting one down means he realized the effect of the card, right?
Thoughtseize is also a pillar of the format (any format), yet missing the 2 life is a relatively common occurrence.
There's a reason why professional poker tournaments have dealers.
IMHO, when you get to the money rounds, either there needs to be electronic decks (auto shuffle, deal, search, trigger, etc) or there needs to be a dealer.
Magic is really not this serious, and shouldn't be taken this seriously.
I think that $5,000 isn't that serious. But $25,000 is serious and more needs to be done to force proper play and prevent errors that can be construed as cheating. Dealers at the final 64, 32 or even 16 would add to the game, not take away from it.
That's about as impractical as chess clocks. The amount of extra space and extra time required, would make running a tournament impossible.
WotC attempts to minimize this by having harsh blanket rules for this type of event. Had his opponent, or anyone, seen Dominguez only put back one card and said something it would have been an automatic game loss. There is no 'I forgot' just game loss. It's not the perfect system, but it works.
There's a reason why professional poker tournaments have dealers.
IMHO, when you get to the money rounds, either there needs to be electronic decks (auto shuffle, deal, search, trigger, etc) or there needs to be a dealer.
Magic is really not this serious, and shouldn't be taken this seriously.
WotC attempts to minimize this by having harsh blanket rules for this type of event. Had his opponent, or anyone, seen Dominguez only put back one card and said something it would have been an automatic game loss. There is no 'I forgot' just game loss. It's not the perfect system, but it works.
Actually, the error committed would call for a warning under Game Play Error - Game Rules Violation. You seem to think it's an error of Drawing Extra Cards, which would carry a game loss, but you're mistaken and this is why. While it's true that he did have an extra number of cards in his hand, which is part of what you can get caught under GPE-DEC, his error stems from resolving brainstorm incorrectly, and not from drawing any additional cards. It's not like the information is unknown, and not like the cards aren't originally mixed up in their hand to begin with, so it's much closer to a generic game rules violation than it is to drawing extra cards. The error happens when the card is incorrectly placed back on top of the deck, which is the root of the extra card. And when an issue of extra cards is caused by something like a communication issue (ex: I say I'm going to brainstorm for 4 and you agree to this number) or a game rules violation (ex: putting the wrong number of cards back off brainstorm) then it's not considered DEC.
What happens when a dealer creases an expensive card? Poker doesn't have that problem, they're using 20 cent decks of cards.
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Wind of Endless Plains 2WWWWW
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Flying, Vigilance, Lifelink
Madness 3WWWWW
If Wind of the Endless Plains' madness cost was paid, destroy all lands and creatures. They can't be regenerated. Wind of Endless Plains gains Defender.
7/7
Waves of the Endless Island 2UUUUU
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Split-second, Non-basic Landwalk, Shroud
Madness 3UUUUU
If Waves of the Endless Island's madness cost was paid, return all permanents to their owner's hands. Waves of the Endless Island gains Defender.
7/7
Confusion of Endless Possibilities 5WUBRG
Legendary Creature - Avatar
When Confusion of Endless Possibilities enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next turn and your life total becomes 1.
Hexproof, Haunt, Amplify 7
Madness 7WUBRG
If Confusion of Endless Possibilities' madness cost was paid, target player skips his or her next turn. Confusion of Endless Possibilities gains Defender.
7/7
Having a dealer to the side of the table so that each player only touches the cards he is dealt is impractical? I disagree given that Poker does it for all 5,000 attendees at major events with 1 dealer per table of players.
I think a reasonable consideration would be the final 32 for pro-tour and final 8 for GP events.
I would think a lvl 1 judge status would be a good starting point for a dealer to work the table. Dealer qualifications would be separate from judge qualifications. Players present the dealer with the deck and the sideboard. Dealer counts both for confirmation of suitability to play. The dealer sets aside the sideboard, then would shuffle each deck in a repeated way (split, split again, shuffle parts 1 and 2, then 3 and 4: split, then split again, shuffle parts 1 and 4, then 2 and 3) then repeat 5 times. Present cut card (yellow) to opponent for cut. Then perform again with 2nd deck.
Deal 7 cards to player who will start play, then 7 cards to player 2. If rejected, shuffle twice per above and deal 6 cards. Repeating downward as needed.
For sideboarding: dealer will press cut the 15 card sideboard into the players deck then present the entire deck to the player. The player then must remove 15 cards from his/her deck and present both to the dealer. Players may not selectively separate cards in the deck. Dealer confirms 15 cards sideboard and provides a count of the deck. Shuffle and play starts.
Look this allows enormous protection over slight of hand, deck stacking, card in lap, pass-through shuffling, sleeve shaving, and deck manipulation.
Tell you what, you start hosting $10,000 entry fee tournaments and compensating judge's a hell of a lot better than we are now, and we'll jump at the opportunity to be dealers like that.
Javier's previous turn, before the video picks up, was him Brainstorming correctly and returning a second Brainstorm to the top of his library (along with another card). That's why he flips it over off the top during his draw. That turn was followed by Castello accidentally drawing two cards (or flipping two for the Delver trigger, not sure which). Then the video happens. I don't buy that Javier performs Brainstorm correctly the previous turn (to say nothing of the countless times he has cast it during the tournament) but then has a lapse the very next.
Tell you what, you start hosting $10,000 entry fee tournaments and compensating judge's a hell of a lot better than we are now, and we'll jump at the opportunity to be dealers like that.
This. It is completely impractical to pay every Judge minimum wage ($8.75 in California I believe). Currently, Judges are paid with cardboard,
which costs probably a few pennies to produce. Are the Judges going to accept $0.01 per hour? I doubt it. Are they going to accept 1 Judge Promo Show and Tell, 1 Judge Promo Vindicate, and 1 Judge Promo Genesis? Probably, especially for those who get a box of the newest set, a play mat, and other minimal costing stuff as "pay."
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The only simple thing I can think of which should decrease the kind of cheating discussed here is to require players to deal cards to thier opponent. I know it sounds wierd but when you think about it but it would work. I have suggested it a few times in various forums but noone seems to think it is a good idea. That is fine with me but I stand by my point that it would help the situation.
I would also support judges doing it but I think it is a logistical nightmare and it would not do anything to prevent cheating in the early rounds, which is a pretty big weakness of that suggestion.
While I can't say for sure that this was cheating or not, I will say that it is awfully convenient that he does this while the judges are all looking away/talking amongst themselves AND his opponent is looking away. By the time everybody looks back towards the game happening he has already finished resolving Brainstorm. Now maybe I could buy that this was a mistake, but just looking at how he resolves it is sketchy in its own right. He takes a good moment to look at the card that he's about to place on top (something almost any player does before finishing resolving Brainstorm), puts it on top, Brainstorm in the grave, and then plays out the rest of his turn. In that good few seconds he spends looking at the card you're telling me he doesn't realize that he only has one card in his hand about to go on top?
It just screams fishy that he's down a game, just finished resolving a Brainstorm correctly the turn prior, and then proceeds to incorrectly resolve a Brainstorm mere moments after while the judges and opponents just happen to be looking away; oh and incorrectly resolved Brainstorm just happens to include both a needed removal spell and the mana to cast it that turn.
I honestly dont find it particularly hard to believe at all. Youre in the tank, trying to think multiple moves ahead, considering multiple possible variables. You look at the cards in your hand and think "ok this is the one I want to draw next turn". Your mind is already racing on to the next decision as you set the card down, forgetting to put another one under it. After playing all day long in a high stress environment, it can happen. Human minds are flawed, we make mistakes.
Of course we cant know for sure that he wasnt cheating, but inability to disprove does not prove. Thats why the criminal justice systems assumes innocence rather than forcing the defendant to prove a negative.
Now certainly this is a card game, not a trial, so you dont need to provide evidence of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but you at least need to provide something other than "I think that" if you are going to accuse someone of intent.
Even disregarding this specific instance, the rush to judgement by certain people on this forum after literally every single major tournament when someone predictably makes a simple error is just sickening.
This isnt a lynch mob, so stop acting like one. If WOTC is reviewing the standings, then they are doing it based on some reason. Heck, there's even a small chance it could be related to something entirely different that happened that we dont even know about.
Speculation and witch hunting at this point is just meaningless.
There's a reason why professional poker tournaments have dealers.
IMHO, when you get to the money rounds, either there needs to be electronic decks (auto shuffle, deal, search, trigger, etc) or there needs to be a dealer.
Magic is really not this serious, and shouldn't be taken this seriously.
Going to take off my judge hat for a bit and relate a story from a playing perspective.
At GP DC in November, I was playing (<3 Legacy). One match, I was on the play for game 2. I drew my opening hand, thought, told my opponent "I'll go to 6". He does nothing; I shuffle, present, he cuts, I draw 6. "I'll go to 5". He does nothing; I shuffle, present, he cuts, I draw 5. "I'll keep". And as I look up from my hand, he's shuffling, having now decided to go to 6.
Of course, I called a judge, and of course there was a bit of investigation to make sure it wasn't intentional (he was used to the older rules where you waited for the other player to finish all mulligans before doing yours), and he got a Warning and was allowed to complete his mulligan (entirely correct, by the way). And while the judge who handled it was filling out the Warning on the result slip, my opponent finished shuffling and handed his deck to me.
And... I promptly picked it up to shuffle, and a card fell off and landed face-up on the table. So I turned to the judge and said "Hey, when you're done with that one you need to fill one out for me too", then showed him what had happened.
Moral of the story: unintentional mistakes come in matched pairs more often than you'd think. Something about the first error, especially if things pick up again right away, seems to grease the path for a second one to happen immediately.
There's a reason why professional poker tournaments have dealers.
IMHO, when you get to the money rounds, either there needs to be electronic decks (auto shuffle, deal, search, trigger, etc) or there needs to be a dealer.
Magic is really not this serious, and shouldn't be taken this seriously.
Quarterfinals of a legacy GP isn't serious??
Finals at worlds isn't serious.
Magic just isn't that kind of game.
Feel free to casually play your deck at worlds finals, shrug off a few missed beneficial triggers, and lose out on $45,000. The rest of us will laugh.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZbvhKQ1ZrY&feature=youtu.be
as you can see, he just return one card to top of library
edit: he cast brainstorm and just return one card to top of library
no
he saw them and put them there but then again it took the first one to see before finishing resolving brainstorm( also they comment about the "miss play/"Cheat"" that happened in the match ( the other guy (while with 0 cards in hand) drawned 2 cards and saw a tarmo in hand but when he was playing it he saw that there was another card behind it and said it to his opponent and they called the judge)Also this must have been posted on Magic General or Legacy forum
EDIT: lol he actually just putted one card back ( I think its a Missplay) ( when i watched this on sunday i remenber that but didn't noticed this)
Bringing a laptop instead of your deck? Could this mean the end of competitive paper Magic?
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Brainstorm is pretty basic.
Enough with the "2 long days of magic = sloppy = OK"
I don't buy it.
How many commentators, judges, players were standing around and didn't even notice?!?!
Happens way to much that these cheaters are caught after the fact by the masses watching video.
Even at the last pro tour in the finals the Head Judge had to come down from the booth to correct game play.
"Sorry...opps"
46:00 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz7yA_YhN00
Thoughtseize is also a pillar of the format (any format), yet missing the 2 life is a relatively common occurrence.
Magic is really not this serious, and shouldn't be taken this seriously.
That's about as impractical as chess clocks. The amount of extra space and extra time required, would make running a tournament impossible.
Quarterfinals of a legacy GP isn't serious??
Actually, the error committed would call for a warning under Game Play Error - Game Rules Violation. You seem to think it's an error of Drawing Extra Cards, which would carry a game loss, but you're mistaken and this is why. While it's true that he did have an extra number of cards in his hand, which is part of what you can get caught under GPE-DEC, his error stems from resolving brainstorm incorrectly, and not from drawing any additional cards. It's not like the information is unknown, and not like the cards aren't originally mixed up in their hand to begin with, so it's much closer to a generic game rules violation than it is to drawing extra cards. The error happens when the card is incorrectly placed back on top of the deck, which is the root of the extra card. And when an issue of extra cards is caused by something like a communication issue (ex: I say I'm going to brainstorm for 4 and you agree to this number) or a game rules violation (ex: putting the wrong number of cards back off brainstorm) then it's not considered DEC.
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Flying, Vigilance, Lifelink
Madness 3WWWWW
If Wind of the Endless Plains' madness cost was paid, destroy all lands and creatures. They can't be regenerated. Wind of Endless Plains gains Defender.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Avatar
Split-second, Non-basic Landwalk, Shroud
Madness 3UUUUU
If Waves of the Endless Island's madness cost was paid, return all permanents to their owner's hands. Waves of the Endless Island gains Defender.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Avatar
When Confusion of Endless Possibilities enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next turn and your life total becomes 1.
Hexproof, Haunt, Amplify 7
Madness 7WUBRG
If Confusion of Endless Possibilities' madness cost was paid, target player skips his or her next turn. Confusion of Endless Possibilities gains Defender.
7/7
Tell you what, you start hosting $10,000 entry fee tournaments and compensating judge's a hell of a lot better than we are now, and we'll jump at the opportunity to be dealers like that.
This. It is completely impractical to pay every Judge minimum wage ($8.75 in California I believe). Currently, Judges are paid with cardboard,
which costs probably a few pennies to produce. Are the Judges going to accept $0.01 per hour? I doubt it. Are they going to accept 1 Judge Promo Show and Tell, 1 Judge Promo Vindicate, and 1 Judge Promo Genesis? Probably, especially for those who get a box of the newest set, a play mat, and other minimal costing stuff as "pay."
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I would also support judges doing it but I think it is a logistical nightmare and it would not do anything to prevent cheating in the early rounds, which is a pretty big weakness of that suggestion.
Peace
It just screams fishy that he's down a game, just finished resolving a Brainstorm correctly the turn prior, and then proceeds to incorrectly resolve a Brainstorm mere moments after while the judges and opponents just happen to be looking away; oh and incorrectly resolved Brainstorm just happens to include both a needed removal spell and the mana to cast it that turn.
I'm just not buying it.
Of course we cant know for sure that he wasnt cheating, but inability to disprove does not prove. Thats why the criminal justice systems assumes innocence rather than forcing the defendant to prove a negative.
Now certainly this is a card game, not a trial, so you dont need to provide evidence of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but you at least need to provide something other than "I think that" if you are going to accuse someone of intent.
Even disregarding this specific instance, the rush to judgement by certain people on this forum after literally every single major tournament when someone predictably makes a simple error is just sickening.
This isnt a lynch mob, so stop acting like one. If WOTC is reviewing the standings, then they are doing it based on some reason. Heck, there's even a small chance it could be related to something entirely different that happened that we dont even know about.
Speculation and witch hunting at this point is just meaningless.
Finals at worlds isn't serious.
Magic just isn't that kind of game.
At GP DC in November, I was playing (<3 Legacy). One match, I was on the play for game 2. I drew my opening hand, thought, told my opponent "I'll go to 6". He does nothing; I shuffle, present, he cuts, I draw 6. "I'll go to 5". He does nothing; I shuffle, present, he cuts, I draw 5. "I'll keep". And as I look up from my hand, he's shuffling, having now decided to go to 6.
Of course, I called a judge, and of course there was a bit of investigation to make sure it wasn't intentional (he was used to the older rules where you waited for the other player to finish all mulligans before doing yours), and he got a Warning and was allowed to complete his mulligan (entirely correct, by the way). And while the judge who handled it was filling out the Warning on the result slip, my opponent finished shuffling and handed his deck to me.
And... I promptly picked it up to shuffle, and a card fell off and landed face-up on the table. So I turned to the judge and said "Hey, when you're done with that one you need to fill one out for me too", then showed him what had happened.
Moral of the story: unintentional mistakes come in matched pairs more often than you'd think. Something about the first error, especially if things pick up again right away, seems to grease the path for a second one to happen immediately.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
Feel free to casually play your deck at worlds finals, shrug off a few missed beneficial triggers, and lose out on $45,000. The rest of us will laugh.